4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

And for the record that is my interpretation.  None of this is expressly stated so it is not canon.  But neither is anyone else opinion unless Bioware writes it in the story.

This.

This is all I ever wanted you to say.

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@Xil
They have extranet access. Somehow I think the Geth would have been able to figure out what the archives are. It's not like it's a secret. That was the argument, right? Booksmart, but morally stupid? Or are we just giving them a pass for everything they did back then across the board?

This assumes that in the middle of a war for their lives, they decided to log on the internet to decide whether this building should be preserved because it has sentimental value to the people trying to killthen and when they have no f**king clue what sentimental value really means since they am still evolving machines.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...

And for the record that is my interpretation.  None of this is expressly stated so it is not canon.  But neither is anyone else opinion unless Bioware writes it in the story.

This.

This is all I ever wanted you to say.

If I prove to you that I said this a few pages ago will you acknowlege it?  The only person claiming canon was Silver.

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 06:49 .

[Iamjdr]

How do you know if they understood the meaning of sentimental value or not? They understood the concept of a soul enough to ask if they had one. I don't know of any human babies that understand the concept of souls or the afterlife.

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...

And for the record that is my interpretation.  None of this is expressly stated so it is not canon.  But neither is anyone else opinion unless Bioware writes it in the story.

This.

This is all I ever wanted you to say.

If I prove to you that I said this a few pages ago will you acknowlege it?  The only person claiming canon was Silver.

If it was in a wall-o-text in between you and Silver, I most likely missed it. Sorry, but I just couldn't read all of those...

If you did say that before, I will gladly take my statement back. 

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

How do you know if they understood the meaning of sentimental value or not? They understood the concept of a soul enough to ask if they had one. I don't know of any human babies that understand the concept of souls or the afterlife.

Legion asked if he had a soul after the Reaper upgrades that made him completely self aware.  I also recall dialogue

In any event, that is my opinion.  If you want to believe something else as I have repeatedly said, you are entitled to.  Why is this so hard to understand.  The only people that are claiming canon is various Quarian supportors.  I am claiming that this is my opinion based on my interpretation and everyone is free to decide for themselves.

I will ask you the same thing I asked Khelish.  If i go back and dig up posts in which I tell people they are free to believe what they want, will you acknowlege that?

[Iamjdr]

Im pretty Legion just reasked that question. Cause wasn't that the question the Geth Asked during the morning war. And I never said anything about canon and whatnot, that was you. You posted something is disagreeed with and I replied... It's how these things work.

Modifié par Iamjdr, 22 mars 2013 - 07:08 .

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

If you did say that before, I will gladly take my statement back. 

Let go through examples of me trying to acknowlege other people.

http://social.biowar...dex/16294666/64

Please note in the above where I explained how I make moral decisions I tell people several times they are free to disagree and have their own opinion. 

Now here is several examples all taken from page 68

Please go look up the definition of canom because your reasonable (and I stress the would reasonable to say no one is saying your account is not possible) theory is just that a theory.  Canon is what actually happened in the story not what you speculate what would have happened if something in the story did not occur.

The difference is I know I am just giving an opinion which is why I repeatedly tell you guys believe what you want.  We are bothing offering interpretations but only one of us is deluded in thinking that what they are providing is canon.

Once again, you can have any number of interpretations which is the point I keep trying to explain.

http://social.biowar...dex/16294666/68

1.  We are at an impasse, I don't begrude you for believing what you do but without a definitive statement from Bioware saying yes we wanted Tali to condemn her race to a fiery death because she couldn't finish a sentence then agree to disagree.

http://social.biowar...dex/16294666/65

At this point, I don't feel like going back further but throughout this pages I keep telling people believe what you want ie this is us discussing opinions an morality which is not fact but our interpretations and facts and the inferences we make from them.  I got on Silver specifically because he flat out said he was stating canon which he wasn't

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Im pretty Legion just reasked that question. Cause wasn't that the question the Geth Asked during the morning war. And I never said anything about canon and whatnot, that was you. You posted something is disagreeed with and I replied... It's how these things work.

I believe we were shown the Geth asking why the needed to be shut down.  I don't think they ever asked if they have a soul.  To me asking if you are alive or if you exist is an indication of sentience.  People who don't believe in God or an afterlife are still sentient but they likely don't believe they have a soul.

Asking if you have a soul means you are pondering the afterlife ie what happens to me when I die. 

And my bad, I thought you posed the question because you thought I was claiming this is 100% fact because.  This is my interpretation which you are free to diagree with.

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 07:38 .

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

I believe we were shown the Geth asking why the needed to be shut down.  I don't think they ever asked if they have a soul.  To me asking if you are alive or if you exist is an indication of sentience.  People who don't believe in God or an afterlife are still sentient but they likely don't believe they have a soul.

www.youtube.com/watch

7:30 here Legion says, "Do you remember the question that caused the creators to attack us, Tali'Zorah? Does this unit have a soul?"

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 22 mars 2013 - 07:26 .

[Iamjdr]

Edit* crono beat me to it

Modifié par Iamjdr, 22 mars 2013 - 07:28 .

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...

I believe we were shown the Geth asking why the needed to be shut down.  I don't think they ever asked if they have a soul.  To me asking if you are alive or if you exist is an indication of sentience.  People who don't believe in God or an afterlife are still sentient but they likely don't believe they have a soul.

www.youtube.com/watch

7:30 here Legion says, "Do you remember the question that caused the creators to attack us, Tali'Zorah? Does this unit have a soul?"

Ah d**n it.  Completely forgot that scene.  I stand corrected.

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 07:29 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

You said that "organics naturally have a prejudice against synthetics, and therefore prpetuate the conflict. So I'll give you that you didn't say "synthetcis are infalible," but that wasn't my point. It was that synthetics are just as guilty of thowing a first stone and pepertuating conflicts.
And the point was that quarian fear of the Council was what forced them to do what they did. I'll bet you that had the Council's ****** rules on A.I.s didn't exist, the quarians would have embraced the geth, instead of fearing them because someone else feared them.


But would the asari and salairans think any different of an army of krogan? Did they? They did the same exact thing with the krogan, taking a race that had the potental for a massive boon, and it blew up in their faces. They aren't going to do the same thing twice. And when the krogan refused to return the worlds, the Council threw the first stone in the Rebellions with black-ops attacks by the Spectres. The krogan were the larger force, and the Council didn't hesitate to cast the first stone, so that isn't the problem. It doens't matter if it's harder or not. All that matters is if it's a direct and imminant threat to their holdings. They don't care about size and power under normal circumstances. After all, they didn't consider Saren an imminant threat to their holdings, even WITH the geth, and we ALL know how that turned out. They do what they want, and only do something if it threatens them personally.

My comment about the natural prejudice was talking about the conflict between the lesser organics and their creations not Leviathan and the Reapers.  The Catalyst is created by an entity that considers itself the pinnacle of life and hence is the one organic race that does not appear to have an inherent fear of machines hence why they create the Catalyst.  They are too superior to fall victim to a machine.   Both Leviathan and the Reapers are different than the rest of them for that reason.  That is also why Harbinger is such a douche.  That is a Leviathan talkng when he goes about his bull.

The Krogan Rebelled though.  I don't remember all the details but I thought the Krogan wanted more and more terroritory and then rebelled when they did get more concessions from the council.  In any event I am not saying it is fact that this scenario happens, I am just illustrating to you that there are other options than you one you present to point out that you can't call it cannon.  You can say it is a logical or reasonable theory of what you think would happen but it is not cannon until it actually happens.

But that exact comment proves that a machine can have the same exact faults as an organic, and therefore this conflict ISN'T soley perpetuated by organic responces alone. Synthetic instinctiual responces cause just as much harm, and are Just as war-causing as organics, and and are just as capable of starting those conflicts. Look at how much damage the geth caused when they let their "survival instincts" take over. They stopped caring about any organic casualties in favor of eliminating the threat. Organic vs synthetic is just as likely to be started by either side, NOT soley organics. It's no different then organic vs organic. Or the brief synthetic vs synthetic war that eventually erupted between the True Geth and the Heretics. It's the flip of a coin, and emotional responces are not limited to organics. Synthetics are alive too, right? That it at least SOMETHING we both agree on, right? As living beings, they have emotional responces that will drive them to do things for base instincts like survival.
The problem is, you are willing to completely give them a free pass because they are synthetic. 
Look at the krogan. They suffered horrible punsihment under the genophage. But if Wreve is leading them, then he will make sure the krogan never learn from their mistakes, and curing it would cause more harm in the long run. However, under Wrex, the krogan have a much better chance of learning from their mistakes, and repenting for them.
The same is true of Legion and the Geth V.I. Legion represents the geth's willingness to change their ways and risk diolouges with the organics they feared and shunned. The Geth V.I. represents a future where the geth will return to their isolationist ways the moment everything is said and done, and go right back to square one.
The problem here, is that you have shown an unwillingness to judge them as living beings. You judge them as organic and synthetic respectively, which is a prejudice standing.
If you trully see the geth as living beings, you need to accept that they had faults just as blaring as us organics, and like the Krogan with the rebellions, and like the quarians fears of the Council, the geth's self-imposed, gunpoint-enforced isolation largely served to bring this war on themselves.

And actually,  the in-game Codex, in All three games, reveals that the krogan didn't start the war. They withdrew from the Council like the batatrians would centuries later, saying that the worlds were theirs, and they would never return them.
The krogan withdrew from the Citadel Races. Then they were attacked first by the Council, who ordered the creation of the Spectres behind the scenes, hoping to use these agents to replace the krogan as the galactic peacekeepers. WIthin a month of the krogan's withdraw, they were assaulted by stretigic black-ops strikes. Antimatter refineries were sabotaged, destroying entire krogan cities in massive matter/antimatter explosions. Asteroid HQ's were shattered to peices by pre-programed suicide fighters. Power grids blacked out on multiple krogan worlds as virus' flodded their extranet connections.
The krogan were attacked first.
The Council attacked a race of A.I.s that boarded the Citadel in peace. Yet, they refuse to do anything that isn't directly perceved to be threatening them. (Refusal to help human forces against the geth in the Traverse. Refusal to help them against the Collectors. Refusal to help the humans with the batarians during the Skyllian Blitz. Refusal to help the quarians against the geth, despite the genocide they just witnissed. ) If it doesn't concern them personally, they don't care. The geth might have been a concern when the territory was part of a Citadel race, but now the quarians aren't, so unless the geth come into Council space, the Council doesn't NEED to do anything if they don't want to. How convienint!<_<
Seriously, the Council expelled the quarians from the Citadel races so that now, quarian terretory isn't under legal Council protection anymore, so despite the race of A.I.s, the Council legally has no reason to go there if they don't want to since (ex) quarian terretory is no longer under their jursitiction. The likely hope was that the geth's vendetta was quarian-strict (despite the many alien visitiors to quarian space that were not spared), and already sated by the war, and it was swept it under the rug intending to forget the geth as long as the geth (hopefully) forgot about them.
Like I said. Selfiish pricks.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 07:52 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Recordings are in the Council Archives unlocked in the Citdael DLC.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Go to 1:27. You will see a literally documented act of A.I. prejudice. They say that these are "the last of the A.I.s on the Citadel." The A.I.s ask why they unlawfully murder them, when their appeal to overturn the anti-A.I. laws hasn't even been adressed by the Council. The turian leading the squad says to "be quiet," and that the Council will never overturn it's own edict. They then beg to not be killed, to which the Council squad kills them.
And like I said, they don't care. They don't wan't unshackled A.I.s period. They could care how little or great the risk is, unless they are personally included in that toll.

And I never said that the Council was SMART. *I* understand the concept of war fully. I never said THEY did. My entire point was that they DIDN'T.
That math is exaxtally their reasoning. They killed those A.I.s, and will not hesitate to do so again if it threatens them persoanly. And like I said, the Council wouldn't know the geth coild fight back, anymore then the quarians did. Remember how the quarians were caught off guard by the geth's retaliation? The Council would have charged in gung-ho, completely unaware of what they were getting into. That's the point. They DIDN'T know, beacuse they likely figured the geth were not advanced or intelligent enough to fight back. Or, like the A.I.s they already killed, unwilling TO fight back. THAT'S what the Council would have banked on.
Do you get it? The entire point was that the Council would have rushed in without realizing that the geth were fully capable of self-defense, and willing TO defend themselves. They would have fallen into the same fight the quarians got into (the same fight the quarians were hoping to prevent ironicly). The entire point is that the Council DOESN'T have any understanding of the concept of war. The fact that in ME1, they didn't send any of the OTHER dozens of Spectres they had avalible to stop Saren at Ilos was kind of a big hint to that.

This is 3 AI.  We don't know how many there were, the Council took long enough to kill them that these guys filed a petition and these guys all presumably died without raising a finger because they were waiting to have their petition heard.  What sort of rushing in allows an AI to file a petition.  

Wait, holy sh*t.  They FILED AN APPEAL, lol.  Not only did the Council not rush in, they allowed these AI to file a petition, they deliberated on that denied it and then they allowed the AI to file an Appeal.  What sort of guns blazing is that?

How does that equate with what we know is a large enough force to kill one billion and who we know actually go to war when threatened?

The guard spicifically says "These are the last of the A.I.s on the Citadel," treating it as an extermination. How else do you think it was ment to be seen? There were obviously more of them, enough to have a kill-squad created to hunt them down. And the fact it took that long should BE indication that there were many of them. And again, you assume this was ever public knowlegde. It was hidden away in the Council Arhcives, so clearly, no one was ment to see it that didn't have Council permission.

So, the reason for the slow manhunt is to kill them silently. The Council has to maintain it's anti-A.I. rep, and maintain the reason for it: A.I.s are bad. After all, an appeal filed by a race of A.I.s to have an edict overtunred would have been major galactic news. It isn't, so that means that this never was public information. The Council buried it. They are afraid of unshcakeled A.I.s in general, and an entire faction landed on the Citadel. That threatens their cushy little jobs, as this could be a massive polittical blow-up if publicised - A.I.s petition rights to live. It could ignight debate on A.I. rights, and they would have to do their jobs and handle it. Their personal, political power was threatened, because they didn't want to deal with it, so they took the easy way out: they murdered them.
Yes. The Council murdered living beings, and used the anti-A.I. laws to sooth their conciouses that they were not killing living beings.
They murdered people because they were to lazy to do their jobs in politics.

It really IS that stupid.

They didn't want people quesitioning A.I. laws, that would look no good. They want people to be afriad of A.I.s soley because the Council doens't trust them. That threatens their economic/pollitical standings.
Imagine how much it would be damaged if it was discovered that an entire race of thousands of unshackled A.I.s was born under their noses. The Council would never forgive the emberrisment, and after charging guns blazing against the geth (and getting into a fight they had no clue about), they would have taken all the emberrisment out on the quarians, and made an example of them by ruining them with scanctions and lawsuits, and finally censorship.
And by extension, quarian fear of the Council's unreasonible laws regarding A.I.s and the punsihments incurred, was what led the quarians to attack the geth: they thought the geth were dead anyway, regardless of having sapiance or not, and figured that the future wellfare of 2.1 billion has to come first over a race that they have written off as doomed either way.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 08:09 .

[silverexile17s]

andy69156915 wrote...

Close enough... What? That's a bit light on details and I'm not sure what you're calling close enough. My post? The loki's? What?

The LOKI's. The idea that they would have reached sapiance by having a networked intelligence like the geth is pretty much a certenty. So MORE then close enough.

[silverexile17s]

Barquiel wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
And the point was that quarian fear of the Council was what forced them to do what they did. I'll bet you that had the Council's ****** rules on A.I.s didn't exist, the quarians would have embraced the geth, instead of fearing them because someone else feared them.

Pardon, but proof please? The quarians give us plenty of excuses (especially our quarian encyclopedia in ME1) why it was alright for them to act how they did, but not a single quarian mentions the council law as a reason to kill the geth. And before you start with your "harsh sanctions", the reason why the council (read: the turians) planed to impose these sanctions on the Alliance was because they were concerned about humanity's very rapid expansion (insert "humans are special" rant here), and they saw it as an opportunity to keep the Alliance under control. It is easy to say what position the Council was in, 300 years later with nothing more than speculation to judge them on. It is another thing to be in the position of making the decision to commit the troops when there are real lives on the line. As for the citadel archive...you have zero context for that scene. Who are these A.I? What are they doing? Who created them? How many of them existed? Maybe they're the reason for the council races irrational fear of AIs. We don't know it.

silverexile17s wrote...
And when the krogan refused to return the worlds, the Council threw the first stone in the Rebellions with black-ops attacks by the Spectres.

That's sheer nonsense. The krogan were given the conquered rachni planets along with several pristine, habitable worlds after the rachni wars.

And to quote the codex...
After the Rachni War, the quick-breeding krogan expanded at the expense of their neighbors. Warlords leveraged their veteran soldiers to seize living space while the Council races were still grateful. Over centuries, the krogan conquered world after world. There was always "just one more" needed. When the Council finally demanded withdrawal from the asari colony of Lusia, krogan Overlord Kredak stormed off the Citadel, daring the Council to take their worlds back.

Look at the Council. They were afriad of unarmed A.I.s that came under a peacefull banner to legally overtun the edict on anti-A.I. laws.  And look at the Alliance. Harsh scanctions on a Shackled A.I. that has no free will.
If they puut harsh scanctions on one Shackled A.I. with no free will, what do you think the punsihment for thusands of unshackled A.I.'s with complete free will is?
It's the simple rule of "worse crime, worse punishment." The fact that the law exists for A.I.s with no free will is the proof. And it's natural to assume that the punishment is therefore worse for A.I.s that DO have free will. (Basically, it's like: steal a candy bar, go to county jail for a few days. Steal a car, go to state prison for five years.)
Bad for a small thing. Worse for bigger thing. It's not rocket science.
And that was because they were afiiad of how humans weren't afraid of A.I.s. Also, you recall Joker telling EDI that the Council would "lynch" her if the found out she was an A.I. One with Reaper-based code, no less. And they would do that in spite of all the help she's provided and lives she's saved.
Also, wrong. That recording has a timestamp listed in the VERY START. 1896 CE. The same exact year the Morning War between the quarians and geth ended. So no, these A.I.s are NOT where the Council's prejudice against A.I.s started, as the laws existed long before that.


And WRONG. You conviently MISSED this part:
The Council had taken precautions. The finest STG operators and asari huntresses had been drafted into a covert "observation force", the Office of Special Tactics and Reconnaissance. The Spectres opened the war with crippling strategic strikes. Krogan planets went dark as computer viruses flooded the extranet. Sabotaged antimatter refineries disappeared in blue-white annihilation.Headquarters stations shattered into orbit-clogging debris, rammed by pre-placed suicide freighters.

Not the underlined. Opened the war.
The krogan withdrew from the Citadel. But the COUNCIL launched the attacks. Remember salarian doctrine? Always strike first.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 08:25 .

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

In any case, it's plain to see what the Council has done to the Quarians for creating an AI. The punishment is ongoing, generations and centuries later. Their embassy revoked, reduced to galactic pariahs against whom the Council summons military force when they try to settle a second-tier garden world they discovered. According to Ascension, they are eighty years away from dying in space.

Well, not only did they create a race of AIs, they then attempted genocide on them. It's not a stigma that departs easily. And I consider the Ekuna thing to be probably noncanon for several reasons.

Noncannon? Really?

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Ekuna

It's right there. You can't ignore it. THAT's headcannon to do so.

And AGAIN, it was either that, or have their race's welfare and future go down the drain as the Council punsihed them for the geth. The Council would have attacked the geth anyway. Nothing done would have changed that fact. And again, they didn't know, or even believe, that the geth were sapiant. Even then, they knew that since the Council would charge in if they found out, the geth were dead anyway. Either the geth die, or the geth die and the quarian fall into depression. "It's time we turned out attentions to those we can still save" is the concensis among the quarian governemnt now. The geth were written off as dead regardless.

[andy6915]

@silverexile17s

Your posts are reminding me how much of a governmental rework the council needs after the Reaper war is over. It's corrupt to the core, with the council seeing all species not on the council as "lesser" (Avina in ME1, embassy terminal, about the Volus). I don't know how exactly, but there needs to be a MAJOR governmental change regardless of your chosen ending. The current system is crap, and I think the Reaper war showed just how crap it is.

I think they just need to get rid of the arrogant system of having "lesser species" be stuck with a crappy embassy while the top guys get to lord over everyone else. They need to make it so that ALL species get a council seat, a representative of every species. This way everyone is fairly represented. And yes, Krogan too as long as Wreave isn't in control (Wrex should be the Krogan councilor). Hell, if you chose an ending where the Geth survived and Legion was the one Shepard dealt with and not the VI, the Geth should even get a council seat... And the Quarians... Like I said, every species. There won't be true equality until this is made so.

Failing that, disband the council entirely and make it a democratic republic among the Citadel population, with a representative of every species forming a sort of "senate", and the common person votes who gets to be the rep.

Either way, the current system needs put into a trash heap.

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Khelish

It sure doesn't help when people in support of one side or another disregard what little canon there actually is as "head canon".

"Bioware says this is official canon"

"Nah, that's head canon. It doesn't have 100% of both sides, so ya."

I fell out of the debate for a while... was it still being argued that back in the Morning War, the Geth were morally immature and thus can't be held accountable for their actions because they didn't understand their ramifications?

The Codex tells us the ancient Quarians practiced ancestor worship. Even as secularism gained strength, reverence to their elders remained an important part of their culture. We're told that they created ancestral VI archives to preserve the personalities of the deceased (reminds me of the "tree of souls" or whatever from Avatar). We're also told that the Geth destroyed these archives when they took over. Not captured. Not repurposed to aid their own storage or processing capability. Destroyed.

I can't decide if this is equivalent to burning all of the family photo albums or destroying the Quarian religion; bombing their Mecca. The point is, this is not the kind of action one takes in direct defense to direct aggression. It's not a military target, or something the Geth would seek to destroy if they were on the "Noverian Rachni" level I argued earlier, indiscriminately lashing out because they didn't know any better. The sole purpose of this act would be to demoralize; to drive the Quarians to despair. This is the action of an entity which understands the effect it will have, who acts with purpose.

You misunderstand. What they didn't understand was that not every quarian was a threat. Also, if the quarians defended the archives, the geth could come to the conclusion that they were somehow important even if they didn't really understand why.

As for the Ekuna thing, it's because I believe that not all of the planetary descriptions were written by writers who were paying much attention to the rest of the game, as again seen with the Gei Hinnom entry. Finally, the Attican Traverse does recognize Council authority, yet the Council is nervous about moving fleets in even there. Your argument about Ekuna falls completely flat, and again, the only way this makes any possible sense is for the planet to be in a different region of space than it supposedly is. The elcor government wouldn't even have the resources to form a colony so far away, allegedly under its own control. Someone on the planet description writing staff just wanted to be "lolsoedgy" without understanding the ramifications of what they made.

Actually, I think the point was that maybe it was the Council's scribes that didn't get accurate information. After all, how many times were prothean ruins found on worlds that never are listed as having them?
Besides, Gei Henniom could HAVE been a desert world. That patch you were in during the rescue mission might have been a rare oasis, which would make sence for the quarians to crash-land there, as it's the most hospitable part of the area. Did that ever occur to you?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 08:37 .

[silverexile17s]

andy69156915 wrote...

@silverexile17s

Your posts are reminding me how much of a governmental rework the council needs after the Reaper war is over. It's corrupt to the core, with the council seeing all species not on the council as "lesser" (Avina in ME1, embassy terminal, about the Volus). I don't know how exactly, but there needs to be a MAJOR governmental change regardless of your chosen ending. The current system is crap, and I think the Reaper war showed just how crap it is.

I think they just need to get rid of the arrogant system of having "lesser species" be stuck with a crappy embassy while the top guys get to lord over everyone else. They need to make it so that ALL species get a council seat, a representative of every species. This way everyone is fairly represented. And yes, Krogan too as long as Wreave isn't in control (Wrex should be the Krogan councilor). Hell, if you chose an ending where the Geth survived and Legion was the one Shepard dealt with and not the VI, the Geth should even get a council seat... And the Quarians... Like I said, every species. There won't be true equality until this is made so.

Failing that, disband the council entirely and make it a democratic republic among the Citadel population, with a representative of every species forming a sort of "senate", and the common person votes who gets to be the rep.

Either way, the current system needs put into a trash heap.

I agree. Blatent favortisim by the Council has brought nothing but hardship. The Volus near-single handedly created the modern economy.... and yet the hanar are being debated for the next Council seat after the humans.
The hanar. What the HELL did the hanar do to warrent a Council seat? Then the elcor, THEN the volus.
If that isn't prejudice, I don't know what is. And yes, I think that if every race was represented like a true senete, then the system would be much more fair.

[Barquiel]

silverexile17s wrote...

And WRONG. You conviently MISSED this part:
The Council had taken precautions. The finest STG operators and asari huntresses had been drafted into a covert "observation force", the Office of Special Tactics and Reconnaissance. The Spectres opened the war with crippling strategic strikes. Krogan planets went dark as computer viruses flooded the extranet. Sabotaged antimatter refineries disappeared in blue-white annihilation.Headquarters stations shattered into orbit-clogging debris, rammed by pre-placed suicide freighters.

Not the underlined. Opened the war.
The krogan withdrew from the Citadel. But the COUNCIL launched the attacks. Remember salarian doctrine? Always strike first.

I really don't know what you're trying to proof here.

700 CE: The Krogan Rebellions: Krogan warlords leverage veterans of the Rachni Wars to annex territory from other races in Citadel space. Eventually the Council demands withdrawal from the asari colony of Lusia, but the krogan refuse.

The council gave the krogan the conquered rachni worlds -> the krogan wanted more planets
The council gave the krogan more habitable worlds -> the krogan wanted more planets
The krogan began to conquer/annex territory from other races in Citadel space until they tried to take over Lusia ->
-> the Council demands withdrawal from the asari colony of Lusia -> the krogan refuse and close their embassy ->the Council came to the colony's defense

What should the council have done instead, then? Let the krogan conquer planets left and right? The Council should have acted sooner, that was the only mistake they made.

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@Xil
They have extranet access. Somehow I think the Geth would have been able to figure out what the archives are. It's not like it's a secret. That was the argument, right? Booksmart, but morally stupid? Or are we just giving them a pass for everything they did back then across the board?

If anything, the level designers weren't paying attention. There's another system where you land on a world to take out a Blood Pack arms factory. The system contains what are called "heavenly twins," two garden worlds in one system, both bombed to uninhabitability long ago (by the Reapers, presumably). The world we land on is a third garden world - Shepard and company wear breathing masks, but there are waterfalls, birds, etc. Heck, Shepard breathes freely on one world with a green atmosphere.

All of that aside, you've made no logical connection between Gei Hinnom and Ekuna. Are we to dismiss any and all planet descriptions now? What about the description for that Asari colony, detailing the opening shots of the Krogan Rebellions?

Also, just throwing this out, but all deserts have at least one oasis in them, right? And wouldn't it make sense for a crash-landing ship to try and land in said oasis, because that would be the most habiatable place on the planet?
As a large desert world, wouldn't Gei Hinnom have large oasis areas to balance out the ecosystem by creating a balance of habitable zones for natural life on the planet to survive?

[Barquiel]

The volus traded their own sovereignty to the turians in exchange for military protection. A turian council member wold be the de facto the volus representative (= 2 turian votes). They have no right or claim to a council seat as long as they're a client race to the turians

[silverexile17s]

Barquiel wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And WRONG. You conviently MISSED this part:
The Council had taken precautions. The finest STG operators and asari huntresses had been drafted into a covert "observation force", the Office of Special Tactics and Reconnaissance. The Spectres opened the war with crippling strategic strikes. Krogan planets went dark as computer viruses flooded the extranet. Sabotaged antimatter refineries disappeared in blue-white annihilation.Headquarters stations shattered into orbit-clogging debris, rammed by pre-placed suicide freighters.

Not the underlined. Opened the war.
The krogan withdrew from the Citadel. But the COUNCIL launched the attacks. Remember salarian doctrine? Always strike first.

I really don't know what you're trying to proof here.

700 CE: The Krogan Rebellions: Krogan warlords leverage veterans of the Rachni Wars to annex territory from other races in Citadel space. Eventually the Council demands withdrawal from the asari colony of Lusia, but the krogan refuse.

The council gave the krogan the conquered rachni worlds -> the krogan wanted more planets
The council gave the krogan more habitable worlds -> the krogan wanted more planets
The krogan began to conquer/annex territory from other races in Citadel space until they tried to take over Lusia ->
-> the Council demands withdrawal from the asari colony of Lusia -> the krogan refuse and close their embassy ->the Council came to the colony's defense

What should the council have done instead, then? Let the krogan conquer planets left and right? The Council should have acted sooner, that was the only mistake they made.

Look at the batarians and humans, though. They did nothing to help either side in that fight. Same thing for humans and the Geth Heretics at Eden Prime.
The point here is that when the Krogan withdrew from the Citadel, they became a rouge state. They STILL didn't open agressions in the war. THAT'S the point.

[silverexile17s]

Barquiel wrote...

The volus traded their own sovereignty to the turians in exchange for military protection. A turian council member wold be the de facto the volus representative (= 2 turian votes). They have no right or claim to a council seat as long as they're a client race to the turians

Yet the elcor are a cliant race of the Asari, and they are under consideration for Council status ahead of the volus.
Prejudiced. Client race has no standing. And the Volus built the Citadel economy and maintain it daily. That for going on, what, 2,000 years, warrents consideration.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 08:51 .