4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

But that exact comment proves that a machine can have the same exact faults as an organic, and therefore this conflict ISN'T soley perpetuated by organic responces alone. Synthetic instinctiual responces cause just as much harm, and are Just as war-causing as organics, and and are just as capable of starting those conflicts. Look at how much damage the geth caused when they let their "survival instincts" take over. They stopped caring about any organic casualties in favor of eliminating the threat. Organic vs synthetic is just as likely to be started by either side, NOT soley organics. It's no different then organic vs organic. Or the brief synthetic vs synthetic war that eventually erupted between the True Geth and the Heretics. It's the flip of a coin, and emotional responces are not limited to organics. Synthetics are alive too, right? That it at least SOMETHING we both agree on, right? As living beings, they have emotional responces that will drive them to do things for base instincts like survival.
The problem is, you are willing to completely give them a free pass because they are synthetic. 
Look at the krogan. They suffered horrible punsihment under the genophage. But if Wreve is leading them, then he will make sure the krogan never learn from their mistakes, and curing it would cause more harm in the long run. However, under Wrex, the krogan have a much better chance of learning from their mistakes, and repenting for them.
The same is true of Legion and the Geth V.I. Legion represents the geth's willingness to change their ways and risk diolouges with the organics they feared and shunned. The Geth V.I. represents a future where the geth will return to their isolationist ways the moment everything is said and done, and go right back to square one.
The problem here, is that you have shown an unwillingness to judge them as living beings. You judge them as organic and synthetic respectively, which is a prejudice standing.
If you trully see the geth as living beings, you need to accept that they had faults just as blaring as us organics, and like the Krogan with the rebellions, and like the quarians fears of the Council, the geth's self-imposed, gunpoint-enforced isolation largely served to bring this war on themselves.

And actually,  the in-game Codex, in All three games, reveals that the krogan didn't start the war. They withdrew from the Council like the batatrians would centuries later, saying that the worlds were theirs, and they would never return them.
The krogan withdrew from the Citadel Races. Then they were attacked first by the Council, who ordered the creation of the Spectres behind the scenes, hoping to use these agents to replace the krogan as the galactic peacekeepers. WIthin a month of the krogan's withdraw, they were assaulted by stretigic black-ops strikes. Antimatter refineries were sabotaged, destroying entire krogan cities in massive matter/antimatter explosions. Asteroid HQ's were shattered to peices by pre-programed suicide fighters. Power grids blacked out on multiple krogan worlds as virus' flodded their extranet connections.
The krogan were attacked first.
The Council attacked a race of A.I.s that boarded the Citadel in peace. Yet, they refuse to do anything that isn't directly perceved to be threatening them. (Refusal to help human forces against the geth in the Traverse. Refusal to help them against the Collectors. Refusal to help the humans with the batarians during the Skyllian Blitz. Refusal to help the quarians against the geth, despite the genocide they just witnissed. ) If it doesn't concern them personally, they don't care. The geth might have been a concern when the territory was part of a Citadel race, but now the quarians aren't, so unless the geth come into Council space, the Council doesn't NEED to do anything if they don't want to. How convienint!<_<
Seriously, the Council expelled the quarians from the Citadel races so that now, quarian terretory isn't under legal Council protection anymore, so despite the race of A.I.s, the Council legally has no reason to go there if they don't want to since (ex) quarian terretory is no longer under their jursitiction. The likely hope was that the geth's vendetta was quarian-strict (despite the many alien visitiors to quarian space that were not spared), and already sated by the war, and it was swept it under the rug intending to forget the geth as long as the geth (hopefully) forgot about them.
Like I said. Selfiish pricks.

Silver, you are not understanding me.  I know a machine can attack first because I know the Reapers attacked first.  My comment was discussing the conflict between the lesser oganics and synethetics which I believe to be the result of the lesser organics.  Organics fear synthetics specifically in a way that is different than any prejudice it has regarding other fellow organics.  There are laws banning synthetic existence not organic existence.  That does mean synthetics can be evil or do bad.  I am simply saying how I think the conflict kicks off.  As you will see later, I have no problem killing a**hole machines.

The Reapers do not have a prejudice specific to organics.  They believe organics and synthetics will always clash and to prevent this war from wiping out organics it decides to reap them.  It does not do this because it is prejudiced against organics or because it hates them.  It does it to protect organics and MAINLY because the organics are the creators.  Put another way, if Synthetics were the ones who created organics in order for organics to exist then the Reapers would have simply chosen to focus their reaping on synthetics ie the guys who have to create the other entity involved in the conflict.

So yes a machine can attack first.  However, you are confusing who attacks first with the term prejudice.  The Reaper does not attack out of prejudice.  It attacks because it's stupid logic has decided the only way to save organics is to wipe most of them out every 50 thousands.  And it focuses on organics because they are the ones who have to create the other.

And I judge them as living beings, what are you talking about?  Every f**king Heretic can die for all I care.  They left the veil and were the aggressor so I don't care about them at all.  I am judging on who I think is the aggressor not who is organic or machine.  There was no reason for the Heretics to leave the veil.  They had spent 300 years in isolation, the Quarians and the rest of the organics had left them alone so their decision to come out and start attacking organics is why they can die.  It is why I have no problem with wiping them out as Shepard in ME2.

The non-Heretics are an entirely different matter because I judge their decision to ally with the Reapers as a direct result of Quarian aggression.  You can provide all sorts of reasons why the Quarians did what they did but at the end of the day I am just like with the Heretics judging based on who was the aggressor.

Do you under yet?  You attack first and die then I don't care.  If you are attacked first and then because of it make sh*tty decisions, I cut you some slack and blame the a**hole who attacked you.  That is true of Organics and Synthetic alike.

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 09:15 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

silverexile17s wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The volus traded their own sovereignty to the turians in exchange for military protection. A turian council member wold be the de facto the volus representative (= 2 turian votes). They have no right or claim to a council seat as long as they're a client race to the turians

Yet the elcor are a cliant race of the Asari, and they are under consideration for Council status ahead of the volus.
Prejudiced. Client race has no standing. And the Volus built the Citadel economy and maintain it daily. That for going on, what, 2,000 years, warrents consideration.

Barla Von FTW?

[remydat]

And just to keep as a separate point. I already hate the Salarians (ie their leaders) for the Genophage and that douche Dalatross for trying to sabotage the cure and the only reason I don't wish them a fiery death is because I always thought the Krogan rebelled ie they were the aggressor and so like with the Quarians, I was slightly less sympathetic to them.

If you are telling me that the Krogan withdrew and were still attacked then please provide me that information and upon receiving it then ask me if I had to no choice but to wipe out the Krogan or the Council who I would choose because it would be to wipe out the Council.

So really I don't know why you are bringing the Krogan up. I support the people who were attacked regardless of the attacker.

[Barquiel]

silverexile17s wrote...

Look at the batarians and humans, though. They did nothing to help either side in that fight. Same thing for humans and the Geth Heretics at Eden Prime.
The point here is that when the Krogan withdrew from the Citadel, they became a rouge state. They STILL didn't open agressions in the war. THAT'S the point.

Here's the planet description for Lusia...
The Krogan Rebellions began in the asari colony of Lusia. After centuries of unabated expansion, the krogan finally forced the Council's hand when they tried to annex this world. Aware that in a generation, Lusia could be a staging base for an invasion of Thessia, the Council came to the colony's defense.
The krogan tried to annex an established asari world. How are they not the aggressors?

Here's the codex entry for the krogan rebellions...
After the Rachni War, the quick-breeding krogan expanded at the expense of their neighbors. Warlords leveraged their veteran soldiers to seize living space while the Council races were still grateful. Over centuries, the krogan conquered world after world. There was always "just one more" needed. When the Council finally demanded withdrawal from the asari colony of Lusia, krogan Overlord Kredak stormed off the Citadel, daring the Council to take their worlds back.
The krogan "conquered world after world" before the council races stroke back. How are they not the aggressors?
Again, what do you want the council to do? Let them annex every asari/salarian/volos colony they want?

The batarians decided to close their embassy and severed diplomatic and economic relations because the council didn't declare the Skyllian Verge an area of "batarian interest". The council didn't cast them out. And honestly, the batarians can only blame themselves...
Despite being welcomed into the galactic community, batarian aggression provoked several crises in galactic relations over the years. Sometime around 1785 CE, a batarian fleet bombarded the salarian colony world of Mannovai; in 1913, the Batarian Hegemony annexed the independent asari colony of Esan; and in 2115, Citadel forces skirmished with batarian forces on the planet Enael.

As for Saren and Eden Prime. The evidence against him wasn't that good. Saren was their top agent...and a traumatized human dockworker, interrogated by humans...who were under the command of Captain Anderson (who has a history with Saren) is your only evidence. That was enough for them to bring about a C-Sec investigation...which turned up nothing. What you want them to do...invade the Perseus veil?

The Asari uplifted the Elcor, but they're no client race.

[Khelish]

Isn't this the "Geth vs Quarian" thread?

>_>

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

The guard spicifically says "These are the last of the A.I.s on the Citadel," treating it as an extermination. How else do you think it was ment to be seen? There were obviously more of them, enough to have a kill-squad created to hunt them down. And the fact it took that long should BE indication that there were many of them. And again, you assume this was ever public knowlegde. It was hidden away in the Council Arhcives, so clearly, no one was ment to see it that didn't have Council permission.

So, the reason for the slow manhunt is to kill them silently. The Council has to maintain it's anti-A.I. rep, and maintain the reason for it: A.I.s are bad. After all, an appeal filed by a race of A.I.s to have an edict overtunred would have been major galactic news. It isn't, so that means that this never was public information. The Council buried it. They are afraid of unshcakeled A.I.s in general, and an entire faction landed on the Citadel. That threatens their cushy little jobs, as this could be a massive polittical blow-up if publicised - A.I.s petition rights to live. It could ignight debate on A.I. rights, and they would have to do their jobs and handle it. Their personal, political power was threatened, because they didn't want to deal with it, so they took the easy way out: they murdered them.
Yes. The Council murdered living beings, and used the anti-A.I. laws to sooth their conciouses that they were not killing living beings.
They murdered people because they were to lazy to do their jobs in politics.

It really IS that stupid.

They didn't want people quesitioning A.I. laws, that would look no good. They want people to be afriad of A.I.s soley because the Council doens't trust them. That threatens their economic/pollitical standings.
Imagine how much it would be damaged if it was discovered that an entire race of thousands of unshackled A.I.s was born under their noses. The Council would never forgive the emberrisment, and after charging guns blazing against the geth (and getting into a fight they had no clue about), they would have taken all the emberrisment out on the quarians, and made an example of them by ruining them with scanctions and lawsuits, and finally censorship.
And by extension, quarian fear of the Council's unreasonible laws regarding A.I.s and the punsihments incurred, was what led the quarians to attack the geth: they thought the geth were dead anyway, regardless of having sapiance or not, and figured that the future wellfare of 2.1 billion has to come first over a race that they have written off as doomed either way.

How many people were they sent to kill?  How many AI were killed?  Again, I saw 3 AI.  I obviously know there was more but I don't know how many.  Give me a rough estimate of how many AI were killed and provide evidence to support your opinion.  That is why it is speculation on you part.  There could have been 10 more units, there could have been 1 million.  I don't know because the story doesn't tell me so anything you or I say about it is simply guessing ie no cannon..

I know the Geth killed one billion people.  I know it seemed damn near everyone had a Geth Unit.  I know the story tells me there were just too much of them.  Thus, I know it had to be an astronomical number of Units in order to kill one billion people.  So trying to compare how the council acted with an unspecified number of AI who peacefully died and how they would act when faced also with an unspecified number of AI but a number we know was capable of killing 1 billion people is just speculation.  Not just on your part but on my part as well which means nothing we say is canon Silver.  Nothing.

Silver, there would be no point to even listen to the appeal.  The point is the mere fact that the Council ALLOWED the AI to file a petition and then allowed them to file an appeal is proof they are not GUNS BLAZING.  Why the f**k would I let AI file an appeal if I am GUNS BLAZING.  I would simply shoot it in the f**king head as it tried to hand me the petition.  So your idea that the Council would just jump straight to wiping out the Geth is based on an example where the Council actually sits there and allows an AI ie a toaster to file petitions in courts.

Finally, we don't know if these people who kill the AI have council authority.  They straight up say why wait when the Council will deny them anyway.  If they were working ordering by the Council to kill the AI they would simply say the Council has ordered us to kill you.  They don't say that.  They act as if they killed them without necessarily being ordered to.  So again, it is speculation to claim to know this was a Council hit job.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But that exact comment proves that a machine can have the same exact faults as an organic, and therefore this conflict ISN'T soley perpetuated by organic responces alone. Synthetic instinctiual responces cause just as much harm, and are Just as war-causing as organics, and and are just as capable of starting those conflicts. Look at how much damage the geth caused when they let their "survival instincts" take over. They stopped caring about any organic casualties in favor of eliminating the threat. Organic vs synthetic is just as likely to be started by either side, NOT soley organics. It's no different then organic vs organic. Or the brief synthetic vs synthetic war that eventually erupted between the True Geth and the Heretics. It's the flip of a coin, and emotional responces are not limited to organics. Synthetics are alive too, right? That it at least SOMETHING we both agree on, right? As living beings, they have emotional responces that will drive them to do things for base instincts like survival.
The problem is, you are willing to completely give them a free pass because they are synthetic. 
Look at the krogan. They suffered horrible punsihment under the genophage. But if Wreve is leading them, then he will make sure the krogan never learn from their mistakes, and curing it would cause more harm in the long run. However, under Wrex, the krogan have a much better chance of learning from their mistakes, and repenting for them.
The same is true of Legion and the Geth V.I. Legion represents the geth's willingness to change their ways and risk diolouges with the organics they feared and shunned. The Geth V.I. represents a future where the geth will return to their isolationist ways the moment everything is said and done, and go right back to square one.
The problem here, is that you have shown an unwillingness to judge them as living beings. You judge them as organic and synthetic respectively, which is a prejudice standing.
If you trully see the geth as living beings, you need to accept that they had faults just as blaring as us organics, and like the Krogan with the rebellions, and like the quarians fears of the Council, the geth's self-imposed, gunpoint-enforced isolation largely served to bring this war on themselves.

And actually,  the in-game Codex, in All three games, reveals that the krogan didn't start the war. They withdrew from the Council like the batatrians would centuries later, saying that the worlds were theirs, and they would never return them.
The krogan withdrew from the Citadel Races. Then they were attacked first by the Council, who ordered the creation of the Spectres behind the scenes, hoping to use these agents to replace the krogan as the galactic peacekeepers. WIthin a month of the krogan's withdraw, they were assaulted by stretigic black-ops strikes. Antimatter refineries were sabotaged, destroying entire krogan cities in massive matter/antimatter explosions. Asteroid HQ's were shattered to peices by pre-programed suicide fighters. Power grids blacked out on multiple krogan worlds as virus' flodded their extranet connections.
The krogan were attacked first.
The Council attacked a race of A.I.s that boarded the Citadel in peace. Yet, they refuse to do anything that isn't directly perceved to be threatening them. (Refusal to help human forces against the geth in the Traverse. Refusal to help them against the Collectors. Refusal to help the humans with the batarians during the Skyllian Blitz. Refusal to help the quarians against the geth, despite the genocide they just witnissed. ) If it doesn't concern them personally, they don't care. The geth might have been a concern when the territory was part of a Citadel race, but now the quarians aren't, so unless the geth come into Council space, the Council doesn't NEED to do anything if they don't want to. How convienint!<_<
Seriously, the Council expelled the quarians from the Citadel races so that now, quarian terretory isn't under legal Council protection anymore, so despite the race of A.I.s, the Council legally has no reason to go there if they don't want to since (ex) quarian terretory is no longer under their jursitiction. The likely hope was that the geth's vendetta was quarian-strict (despite the many alien visitiors to quarian space that were not spared), and already sated by the war, and it was swept it under the rug intending to forget the geth as long as the geth (hopefully) forgot about them.
Like I said. Selfiish pricks.

Silver, you are not understanding me.  I know a machine can attack first because I know the Reapers attacked first.  My comment was discussing the conflict between the lesser oganics and synethetics which I believe to be the result of the lesser organics.  Organics fear synthetics specifically in a way that is different than any prejudice it has regarding other fellow organics.  There are laws banning synthetic existence not organic existence.  That does mean synthetics can be evil or do bad.  I am simply saying how I think the conflict kicks off.  As you will see later, I have no problem killing a**hole machines.

The Reapers do not have a prejudice specific to organics.  They believe organics and synthetics will always clash and to prevent this war from wiping out organics it decides to reap them.  It does not do this because it is prejudiced against organics or because it hates them.  It does it to protect organics and MAINLY because the organics are the creators.  Put another way, if Synthetics were the ones who created organics in order for organics to exist then the Reapers would have simply chosen to focus their reaping on synthetics ie the guys who have to create the other entity involved in the conflict.

So yes a machine can attack first.  However, you are confusing who attacks first with the term prejudice.  The Reaper does not attack out of prejudice.  It attacks because it's stupid logic has decided the only way to save organics is to wipe most of them out every 50 thousands.  And it focuses on organics because they are the ones who have to create the other.

And I judge them as living beings, what are you talking about?  Every f**king Heretic can die for all I care.  They left the veil and were the aggressor so I don't care about them at all.  I am judging on who I think is the aggressor not who is organic or machine.  There was no reason for the Heretics to leave the veil.  They had spent 300 years in isolation, the Quarians and the rest of the organics had left them alone so their decision to come out and start attacking organics is why they can die.  It is why I have no problem with wiping them out as Shepard in ME2.

The non-Heretics are an entirely different matter because I judge their decision to ally with the Reapers as a direct result of Quarian aggression.  You can provide all sorts of reasons why the Quarians did what they did but at the end of the day I am just like with the Heretics judging based on who was the aggressor.

Do you under yet?  You attack first and die then I don't care.  If you are attacked first and then because of it make sh*tty decisions, I cut you some slack and blame the a**hole who attacked you.  That is true of Organics and Synthetic alike.

See? That right there. Lesser organics. There IS NO SUCH THING. It's all living beings. Lableing them like that makes is prejudiced, and makes you look no better then the Citadel Council. And you continue to refuse believeing that it's the exact same for synthetics. That's what being a living beings IS: having those faults. You refuse to believe that synthetics are guilty of having those falts and acting on them the way an organic can. Your logic is: Organic can = will, and synthetic can = won't.
Synthetics are NOT immune to that fear either. WE are something THEY don't understand at all EITHER. They're instinctual fear of us is no different, because we typacally think using emotional responces, which they find illogical. Therefore, fear of emotinal responces motivates them, JUST as much as fear of cold logic motivates organics. SEE?
Synthetics are NO better then organics in that regard. THAT'S what you don't get. They have fear of each-other for the same reasons: the other's sense of logic. It isn't prejudice of appearance or origin. It's the fundamental way both think that the other fears. It's NOT a case of one side fearing and the other not having that fear.
And there ARE laws banning the existance of organic races. Remember the Rachni? The Council scanctioned their genocide. And they have laws against the krogan too.  So that is AGAIN patently false, as being synthetic has nothing to do with the placing of laws against a species.
And so, NO, that is NOT how all conflict kicks off. It's always a coin toss. Also, lose the "Lesser organic" title, as it promotes logic like the Council, in that you believe that there are organics that are patently superior to others, whihc in turn promotes the belief that some forms of life are superior to others, and THAT is prejudice.

But you forget that it wipes out the synthetcis too. If it didn't blame the synthetics, it wouldn't kill them off at the end of the cycles. It would spare them, and the synthetics from the past cycles would still be around, so your entire  belief has a major hole right there.
And synthetics replicate faster then any organic can.

And since the geth all use the Reaper code to upgrade themselves at the end of the Rannoch war, they all fit the bill of Heretics: sacrificing their individually achived future for the sake of the expeidant path. The same thing they destroyed/rewrote the Heretics for doing. So you can't just say they aren't the same when they fell victum to the same weakness. And again, being the rouge agressor, you expect the faction they splintered from to take responcibility for that. The salarians did for their "Leauge of One" group. The Alliance did for Cerberus. The geth should take responcibilty for the Heretics. They threatened countless lives. That should have been the prerequisit for stopping them, not waiting till the geth themselves were inconvieninced by it. Therefore, the geth are also responcible for letting the Heretics get as far as they did. It wasn't just the fault of the Heretics.

And their choice was dependant on MAN Y factors. Quarian agression only got as high as it did because (a) the Reapers were hervesting everything, and the quarians can't fight back effectively in their current state, ( the quarians last hope to have their world back was right now, © the galaxy branded the geth public enemy # 1 since the Battle of the Citadel, so any attacks are seen as vindicated, and (d) the geth did nothing to change any of that negitive outlook. So NO, it ISN"T soley dependant on quarian agression, because it was motivated by desperation, which was in turn caused by the Reapers, and fueled by the geth being publicly listed as Reaper allies,  which the geth in turn did nothing to change. See how this loops around to not taking responcibility for the Heretic again?

Do YOU understand this yet? "Quarian agression" was HALF the formula for the war. The other half was "Geth Apathy." The geth's isolation and strict non-contact policy was just as big a factor in the war as the quarian's desperation was. You again refuse to see the gray in all this. Nothing is ever that simple. To the galaxy, the ones that attacked unprovoked was the geth. Which was never rectified by the true Geth. So to the quarians, and the rest of the galaxy, the geth are the A-holes. THEY started this three years ago at Eden Prime as far as the rest of the galaxy knows.
So from what the galaxy sees, the GETH are the A-holes that motivated the QUARIANS to make the rash decision, not the other way around. That's what the public thinks. Only Shepard & crew ever knows different. It's not the quarian's fault that the geth never tried to fix what the galaxy thought of them.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 09:53 .

[Barquiel]

Khelish wrote...

Isn't this the "Geth vs Quarian" thread?

>_>

You're right, got carried away...

I simply think the councilors get way more flak than they deserve.

[silverexile17s]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The volus traded their own sovereignty to the turians in exchange for military protection. A turian council member wold be the de facto the volus representative (= 2 turian votes). They have no right or claim to a council seat as long as they're a client race to the turians

Yet the elcor are a cliant race of the Asari, and they are under consideration for Council status ahead of the volus.
Prejudiced. Client race has no standing. And the Volus built the Citadel economy and maintain it daily. That for going on, what, 2,000 years, warrents consideration.

Barla Von FTW?

Not just Barla Von. It's listed verbatium in the Galactic Codex that the Volus created the modern banking system when the Citadel Council was formed. That was roughly 2,000 years ago. And the Volus maintain that status que and matiniance and uphold the economic system to this day. Look it all up.
And after 2,000 years of loyal service daily, I think they are perfectly entitled to a chair/seat on the Council.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 10:54 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

And just to keep as a separate point. I already hate the Salarians (ie their leaders) for the Genophage and that douche Dalatross for trying to sabotage the cure and the only reason I don't wish them a fiery death is because I always thought the Krogan rebelled ie they were the aggressor and so like with the Quarians, I was slightly less sympathetic to them.

If you are telling me that the Krogan withdrew and were still attacked then please provide me that information and upon receiving it then ask me if I had to no choice but to wipe out the Krogan or the Council who I would choose because it would be to wipe out the Council.

So really I don't know why you are bringing the Krogan up. I support the people who were attacked regardless of the attacker.

The krogan withdrew from the Citadel. The Council attacked first because they were unwilling to let the other cast a first stone. That's the procedure with ALL rouge races. Incuding synthetics. Hell, ESPECALLY synthetics, as the first thing the Council does with them is assume hostilities. (That and A.I.s are too much of a political hassle to deal with otherwise)
If you go to the "Krogan Rebellions" entry in the Codex, you will see that the Council struck first. Hell, didn't I provide this information verbatium a few posts ago?
And back then, the krogan would have shot you in the back of the head. The POINT is that they learned from their mistakes. You assume that the sympathetic race they are NOW is how they were when it all started. That's wrong. They become sympathetic BECAUSE of the horrors they endured. They were on the verge of dropping Palaven's moons on top of it before the genophage was released. You really would let thousands of civilians die? It was a rock and a hard place, and it was either the krogan, or every other race in the free galaxy.

I don't endorse genocide, but the rationel regarding the genophage was logical. Brutal and amoral, but again, the krogan would have obliterated Palaven and many other worlds if not stopped there.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 10:56 .

[silverexile17s]

Barquiel wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Look at the batarians and humans, though. They did nothing to help either side in that fight. Same thing for humans and the Geth Heretics at Eden Prime.
The point here is that when the Krogan withdrew from the Citadel, they became a rouge state. They STILL didn't open agressions in the war. THAT'S the point.

Here's the planet description for Lusia...
The Krogan Rebellions began in the asari colony of Lusia. After centuries of unabated expansion, the krogan finally forced the Council's hand when they tried to annex this world. Aware that in a generation, Lusia could be a staging base for an invasion of Thessia, the Council came to the colony's defense.
The krogan tried to annex an established asari world. How are they not the aggressors?

Here's the codex entry for the krogan rebellions...
After the Rachni War, the quick-breeding krogan expanded at the expense of their neighbors. Warlords leveraged their veteran soldiers to seize living space while the Council races were still grateful. Over centuries, the krogan conquered world after world. There was always "just one more" needed. When the Council finally demanded withdrawal from the asari colony of Lusia, krogan Overlord Kredak stormed off the Citadel, daring the Council to take their worlds back.
The krogan "conquered world after world" before the council races stroke back. How are they not the aggressors?
Again, what do you want the council to do? Let them annex every asari/salarian/volos colony they want?

The batarians decided to close their embassy and severed diplomatic and economic relations because the council didn't declare the Skyllian Verge an area of "batarian interest". The council didn't cast them out. And honestly, the batarians can only blame themselves...
Despite being welcomed into the galactic community, batarian aggression provoked several crises in galactic relations over the years. Sometime around 1785 CE, a batarian fleet bombarded the salarian colony world of Mannovai; in 1913, the Batarian Hegemony annexed the independent asari colony of Esan; and in 2115, Citadel forces skirmished with batarian forces on the planet Enael.

As for Saren and Eden Prime. The evidence against him wasn't that good. Saren was their top agent...and a traumatized human dockworker, interrogated by humans...who were under the command of Captain Anderson (who has a history with Saren) is your only evidence. That was enough for them to bring about a C-Sec investigation...which turned up nothing. What you want them to do...invade the Perseus veil?

The Asari uplifted the Elcor, but they're no client race.

Again, THEY still didn't attack the Council, and it's never stated that the krogan actually fired a shot before that. They used threats of words but never seemed to fire a shot till the Council did.
It's like a bully using size to intimidate without actually thowing a punch, and then you strike first when he doesn't. He's down on the floor in pain and you are standing over him. He was intimidating you, but he didn't strike you. So it can't diffinitively be said he started it since he didn't follow through with the threat (yet, but no one will know now), and you attacked first without warning. It's a sticky situation, no?

And again, where does it ever say those conquered worlds were Council occupied/owned until Lusia? Do you know for sure about that? How do you know that they were colonized by others? They may have been Council scouted, but not Council occupied.

And again, people can say the same about the humans and turians. The turians launched the first stroke, yet humans were the one blamed for it all. And the batarians did have one point. The Council saw immence potental in humans, calling them a "Sleeping giant", and wanted to cultivate them for their own potental and control. They wanted the humans to be on good terms while still maintaining overall control over them. That's why they did nothing to help the batarians, yet didn't help the humans when the batarians attacked. It had nothing to do with good terms. They simply wanted the larger potental humans could bring to the table, and chose them over the batarians.

Also, the fact that the geth invaded, REGARDLESS of who was leading them, IS grounds to invade the Perceus Vail. Geth attack, no matter under WHOSE provocation, is grounds for War. When the Rachni attacked, the Council didn't waste time countering.
The only reason the Council didn't counter the geth's blatent act of agression was because a human world was the one hit. After all, Saren's involvement is the thing that's suspect. I see absolutly NOTHING the Council had which disputes that the geth were the agressors at Eden Prime.  So REGARDLESS of Saren's involvement, the fact was that the geth attacked, which is full grounds for an attack on the Perceus Veil.

And also, the elcor live near the asari. They are dependant on trade relations with the asari. They are close allies of the asari. Their interests are tied to them. That makes them a cliant race.

And just to recap, what does this have to do with the Geth's motivations vs Quarian's motivations right now?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 10:20 .

[andy6915]

Funny thing about the Krogan rebellions. The Krogan were stealing worlds from other races, that is what got the Council attacking them. They were pretty much invading and then claiming those worlds as Krogan worlds... BUT, the council didn't give a damn for quite a while. In fact, you know what got them off their asses? When the Krogan stole an Asari world. Before that, the council just ignored the problem because it was being done to less "important" species. It was only when the Asari had it happen to them that they finally decided to do something about it.

Kind of reminds me of ME3 with the Thessia beacon. They didn't care until the problem was finally effecting them. Just one more reason I think the council and Asari government are rubbish.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The guard spicifically says "These are the last of the A.I.s on the Citadel," treating it as an extermination. How else do you think it was ment to be seen? There were obviously more of them, enough to have a kill-squad created to hunt them down. And the fact it took that long should BE indication that there were many of them. And again, you assume this was ever public knowlegde. It was hidden away in the Council Arhcives, so clearly, no one was ment to see it that didn't have Council permission.

So, the reason for the slow manhunt is to kill them silently. The Council has to maintain it's anti-A.I. rep, and maintain the reason for it: A.I.s are bad. After all, an appeal filed by a race of A.I.s to have an edict overtunred would have been major galactic news. It isn't, so that means that this never was public information. The Council buried it. They are afraid of unshcakeled A.I.s in general, and an entire faction landed on the Citadel. That threatens their cushy little jobs, as this could be a massive polittical blow-up if publicised - A.I.s petition rights to live. It could ignight debate on A.I. rights, and they would have to do their jobs and handle it. Their personal, political power was threatened, because they didn't want to deal with it, so they took the easy way out: they murdered them.
Yes. The Council murdered living beings, and used the anti-A.I. laws to sooth their conciouses that they were not killing living beings.
They murdered people because they were to lazy to do their jobs in politics.

It really IS that stupid.

They didn't want people quesitioning A.I. laws, that would look no good. They want people to be afriad of A.I.s soley because the Council doens't trust them. That threatens their economic/pollitical standings.
Imagine how much it would be damaged if it was discovered that an entire race of thousands of unshackled A.I.s was born under their noses. The Council would never forgive the emberrisment, and after charging guns blazing against the geth (and getting into a fight they had no clue about), they would have taken all the emberrisment out on the quarians, and made an example of them by ruining them with scanctions and lawsuits, and finally censorship.
And by extension, quarian fear of the Council's unreasonible laws regarding A.I.s and the punsihments incurred, was what led the quarians to attack the geth: they thought the geth were dead anyway, regardless of having sapiance or not, and figured that the future wellfare of 2.1 billion has to come first over a race that they have written off as doomed either way.

How many people were they sent to kill?  How many AI were killed?  Again, I saw 3 AI.  I obviously know there was more but I don't know how many.  Give me a rough estimate of how many AI were killed and provide evidence to support your opinion.  That is why it is speculation on you part.  There could have been 10 more units, there could have been 1 million.  I don't know because the story doesn't tell me so anything you or I say about it is simply guessing ie no cannon..

I know the Geth killed one billion people.  I know it seemed damn near everyone had a Geth Unit.  I know the story tells me there were just too much of them.  Thus, I know it had to be an astronomical number of Units in order to kill one billion people.  So trying to compare how the council acted with an unspecified number of AI who peacefully died and how they would act when faced also with an unspecified number of AI but a number we know was capable of killing 1 billion people is just speculation.  Not just on your part but on my part as well which means nothing we say is canon Silver.  Nothing.

Silver, there would be no point to even listen to the appeal.  The point is the mere fact that the Council ALLOWED the AI to file a petition and then allowed them to file an appeal is proof they are not GUNS BLAZING.  Why the f**k would I let AI file an appeal if I am GUNS BLAZING.  I would simply shoot it in the f**king head as it tried to hand me the petition.  So your idea that the Council would just jump straight to wiping out the Geth is based on an example where the Council actually sits there and allows an AI ie a toaster to file petitions in courts.

Finally, we don't know if these people who kill the AI have council authority.  They straight up say why wait when the Council will deny them anyway.  If they were working ordering by the Council to kill the AI they would simply say the Council has ordered us to kill you.  They don't say that.  They act as if they killed them without necessarily being ordered to.  So again, it is speculation to claim to know this was a Council hit job.

Thee you go again, trusting only what you see. They spicifically say "these are the last of the A.I.s on the Citadel." That statement is direct proof that there were more then just the three. THAT isn't disputible. The fact that the Council had to send out a kill-squad is also indicative of that. SInce there were supposedly enough A.I.s to be able to file a legal appeal with the Council and have the capitol, and the numbers required for backing such an action, I'd say.... somewhere around 300 at the minimum.

Also, you forget that the geth were literally factory made. Did you take into account that every unit could be instantiniously replaced? So in truth, the geth forces must ahave numbered in the millions at least, in the start of the war, that is, then grew accordingly as the war progressed. Another factor was that they were superior fighters. If 1 billion geth had already existed by the war's start, it wouldn't have been "long and bloody." It would have been quicker then one year. So likely, the number was somewhere between 50 or 60 million. 66 at the most.
And again, we know for a fact that the Council is brash when it comes to A.I.s. We know the geth were not considered sapiant, so they were assumed to be docile. Therefore, it would be assumed they would be killed without little trouble. "The hope was that most of the geth would still be little more then machines, incapable of orginized resistance." ~Tali, ME1.
The Council would have banked on that same thing, and not treated the elimination of the geth any differently then the elimination of those A.I.s. At least, until the geth broke the predictions and launched orginized counterattackes.

And NO.  You're assuming the appeal was a document. From what the A.I.s say, the appeal was a verbal one. And when they DID try to voice it, the Council refused to let them. Get it?
And watch that recording again. They literally DID shoot them in the head as they tied (again) to voice an appeal. They were never allowed the audiance to do so. They literally WERE killed before an appeal could be made.
So it literally WAS shooting them in the head guns blazing before they ever had a chance to make a public appeal. It never made it to the courts. See?

And the squad captian explisitly says "You know the Council will never overturn it's own edict." Also, the event was in the Council Archives, so they knew about it and scanctioned it, meaning that they persoally ordered it is not a stretch by any means. Also, the kill-squad was formed of an asari, and turian, and a salarian. Also, the salarian says "standing by on your go, sir." Meaning the turian is a rank-holder among them.

Also, there's the fact that the V.I timestamp lists the video as "removial of illegal A.I.s." Meaning the A.I.s were considered illegal and were "removed" by Council athouized force. So that's pretty much a clincher, right?

[silverexile17s]

andy69156915 wrote...

Funny thing about the Krogan rebellions. The Krogan were stealing worlds from other races, that is what got the Council attacking them. They were pretty much invading and then claiming those worlds as Krogan worlds... BUT, the council didn't give a damn for quite a while. In fact, you know what got them off their asses? When the Krogan stole an Asari world. Before that, the council just ignored the problem because it was being done to less "important" species. It was only when the Asari had it happen to them that they finally decided to do something about it.

Kind of reminds me of ME3 with the Thessia beacon. They didn't care until the problem was finally effecting them. Just one more reason I think the council and Asari government are rubbish.

Exactlly. For how long were the krogan taking worlds and no one cared? Then they take an asari world and then the Council wants to do something about it.
The same thing with the geth. Once the geth took the quarian terretory and basically said "don't tread on me," the Council wasn't so gung-ho about enforcing their anti-A.I. law against A.I.s that they now knew could fight back. So the Council kicked the quarians from the Citadel Races so that, now that quarian space isn't in their legal juristiction anymore, the Council doesn't have to do anything about the geth unless they feel like it.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 10:57 .

[Barquiel]

andy69156915 wrote...

Funny thing about the Krogan rebellions. The Krogan were stealing worlds from other races, that is what got the Council attacking them. They were pretty much invading and then claiming those worlds as Krogan worlds... BUT, the council didn't give a damn for quite a while. In fact, you know what got them off their asses? When the Krogan stole an Asari world. Before that, the council just ignored the problem because it was being done to less "important" species. It was only when the Asari had it happen to them that they finally decided to do something about it.

The krogan were stealing worlds from all races. There was always 'just one more' needed. Lusia was simply the final straw.

[silverexile17s]

Barquiel wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Funny thing about the Krogan rebellions. The Krogan were stealing worlds from other races, that is what got the Council attacking them. They were pretty much invading and then claiming those worlds as Krogan worlds... BUT, the council didn't give a damn for quite a while. In fact, you know what got them off their asses? When the Krogan stole an Asari world. Before that, the council just ignored the problem because it was being done to less "important" species. It was only when the Asari had it happen to them that they finally decided to do something about it.

The krogan were stealing worlds from all races. There was always 'just one more' needed. Lusia was simply the final straw.

An asari owned straw. Again, none of the other worlds are explisitly listed as being Council-settled until Lusia.

[tevix]

@Remy

I never once said that the council would wipe out the geth or place sanctions on the quarians.

I said there was evidence to suggest the quarians were AFRAID that they would. Everything we know about the quarians paints them as having questionable decisions making and common sense.

I also never said fear of the council was the only reason they attacked the geth. I just got tired of your "Nah, headcanon brah" excuses.

Finally, I don't care that the quarians attacked first in ME3. The geth allied with the reapers. They would gladly have wiped out all life in the galaxy just to beat the quarians. They didn't keep their conflict with the quarians confined to them, they turned on the galaxy.

Why should I give a crap about them at that point? They become heretics by doing that, and by choice as well. That makes them enemies.

[Khelish]

You guys should make a "Krogan Rebellions" thread. I'm not saying this to be a jerk or a topic police. I would love to see both sides on that argument, considering the "Geth vs Quarian" debate has been exhausted.

[Barquiel]

silverexile17s wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Funny thing about the Krogan rebellions. The Krogan were stealing worlds from other races, that is what got the Council attacking them. They were pretty much invading and then claiming those worlds as Krogan worlds... BUT, the council didn't give a damn for quite a while. In fact, you know what got them off their asses? When the Krogan stole an Asari world. Before that, the council just ignored the problem because it was being done to less "important" species. It was only when the Asari had it happen to them that they finally decided to do something about it.

The krogan were stealing worlds from all races. There was always 'just one more' needed. Lusia was simply the final straw.

An asari owned straw. Again, none of the other worlds are explisitly listed as being Council-settled until Lusia.

First you blame the council for being the aggressors. Now you're blaming them for not acting sooner. You should really make up your mind. The codex clearly says that the krogan began to annex territory from the council races. I don't know how they can make it any clearer.

edit: ok, I drop it...back to quarians and geth:innocent:

Modifié par Barquiel, 22 mars 2013 - 11:21 .

[andy6915]

They were annexing them, and the council was doing nothing. An Asari world is taken and suddenly "How dare you! Taking an elcor world or something is one thing, but a planet owned by one of our council?! That's it, we're making a special unit to make those Krogan regret that decision". Right, total COINCIDENCE that the straw that broke the camel's back just HAPPENED to be the first world to be stolen that belonged to one of the top 2 council races (Turians weren't on the scene yet). Isn't that a funny little unconnected coincidence? They take dozens of worlds, but ONLY decide it's a problem when one of the master species of the Citadel council gets threatened.

Suuuuuure...

Barquiel, the point is, the council are only aggressive or not when it affects THEM, and ONLY them. Quarians got their asses kicked by their AI race, but the AI are content to stay away? Not their problem. AI attack the Citadel? NOW they take them seriously. Krogan are content to only take lesser race's planets? Not their problem. Krogan take one of the master race's planets? It's war and NOW they take them seriously.

They only care when it affects them. Not before. It's all at their whims.

[tevix]

@Andy

ME1 I think

"We won't be dragged into a galctic confrontation with the terminus systems over a few dozen human colonies."

that's a minimum of nearly 40 worlds that the council deems insignifcant.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

See? That right there. Lesser organics. There IS NO SUCH THING. It's all living beings. Lableing them like that makes is prejudiced, and makes you look no better then the Citadel Council. And you continue to refuse believeing that it's the exact same for synthetics. That's what being a living beings IS: having those faults. You refuse to believe that synthetics are guilty of having those falts and acting on them the way an organic can. Your logic is: Organic can = will, and synthetic can = won't.
Synthetics are NOT immune to that fear either. WE are something THEY don't understand at all EITHER. They're instinctual fear of us is no different, because we typacally think using emotional responces, which they find illogical. Therefore, fear of emotinal responces motivates them, JUST as much as fear of cold logic motivates organics. SEE?
Synthetics are NO better then organics in that regard. THAT'S what you don't get. They have fear of each-other for the same reasons: the other's sense of logic. It isn't prejudice of appearance or origin. It's the fundamental way both think that the other fears. It's NOT a case of one side fearing and the other not having that fear.
And there ARE laws banning the existance of organic races. Remember the Rachni? The Council scanctioned their genocide. And they have laws against the krogan too.  So that is AGAIN patently false, as being synthetic has nothing to do with the placing of laws against a species.
And so, NO, that is NOT how all conflict kicks off. It's always a coin toss. Also, lose the "Lesser organic" title, as it promotes logic like the Council, in that you believe that there are organics that are patently superior to others, whihc in turn promotes the belief that some forms of life are superior to others, and THAT is prejudice.

But you forget that it wipes out the synthetcis too. If it didn't blame the synthetics, it wouldn't kill them off at the end of the cycles. It would spare them, and the synthetics from the past cycles would still be around, so your entire  belief has a major hole right there.
And synthetics replicate faster then any organic can.

And since the geth all use the Reaper code to upgrade themselves at the end of the Rannoch war, they all fit the bill of Heretics: sacrificing their individually achived future for the sake of the expeidant path. The same thing they destroyed/rewrote the Heretics for doing. So you can't just say they aren't the same when they fell victum to the same weakness. And again, being the rouge agressor, you expect the faction they splintered from to take responcibility for that. The salarians did for their "Leauge of One" group. The Alliance did for Cerberus. The geth should take responcibilty for the Heretics. They threatened countless lives. That should have been the prerequisit for stopping them, not waiting till the geth themselves were inconvieninced by it. Therefore, the geth are also responcible for letting the Heretics get as far as they did. It wasn't just the fault of the Heretics.

And their choice was dependant on MAN Y factors. Quarian agression only got as high as it did because (a) the Reapers were hervesting everything, and the quarians can't fight back effectively in their current state, ( the quarians last hope to have their world back was right now, © the galaxy branded the geth public enemy # 1 since the Battle of the Citadel, so any attacks are seen as vindicated, and (d) the geth did nothing to change any of that negitive outlook. So NO, it ISN"T soley dependant on quarian agression, because it was motivated by desperation, which was in turn caused by the Reapers, and fueled by the geth being publicly listed as Reaper allies,  which the geth in turn did nothing to change. See how this loops around to not taking responcibility for the Heretic again?

Do YOU understand this yet? "Quarian agression" was HALF the formula for the war. The other half was "Geth Apathy." The geth's isolation and strict non-contact policy was just as big a factor in the war as the quarian's desperation was. You again refuse to see the gray in all this. Nothing is ever that simple. To the galaxy, the ones that attacked unprovoked was the geth. Which was never rectified by the true Geth. So to the quarians, and the rest of the galaxy, the geth are the A-holes. THEY started this three years ago at Eden Prime as far as the rest of the galaxy knows.
So from what the galaxy sees, the GETH are the A-holes that motivated the QUARIANS to make the rash decision, not the other way around. That's what the public thinks. Only Shepard & crew ever knows different. It's not the quarian's fault that the geth never tried to fix what the galaxy thought of them.

Holy Sh*t Silver.  Lesser organics is how Leviathan described them.  I used the term to distinguish between Leviathan and its thralls ie lesser organics.  Not because I am prejudiced.  I mean this is getting ridiculous.

Levithan thinks it is better than everyone else and so to some extent does its creation.  Neither of them are prejudiced against any one group in particular.  That is the point.  You just admitted it by saying the Reapers reap synthetics too ie they are not prejudiced for machines and against organics. 

To put things in simple terms, in the absence of any immediate threat to their lives, I have yet to see a lesser synthetic ie NOT THE REAPERS just up and start killing organics.  In the absence of any immediate threat to their lives, I have seen a few instances where lesser organics ie NOT LEVIATHAN decide to kill synthetics even though those synethics have done nothing to them.  So the intial conflict starts because organics decide to kill.

That does not mean machines can't do bad things.  I am not commenting on the entire conflict start to finish.  I am merely stating how it starts as far as I can tell.

[andy6915]

@tevix

Exactly. I'd bet every credit my Shepard's own that if it had been a Turian or Asari or Salarian world, that they would have declared full scale war right then and there. But of course, there's that convenient excuse the councilors give "Turians don't found colonies on the borders of the Terminus Systems". Right, it's our fault that you make us colonize unstable places like that, but then don't help out when things go sour (pretty much what Anderson says in ME1 in an investigate option). So their excuse it ultimately reflecting worse on them then on the Alliance.

Excuses excuses excuses, that's all the council ever is if it doesn't affect them.

[remydat]

Barquiel wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Isn't this the "Geth vs Quarian" thread?

>_>

You're right, got carried away...

I simply think the councilors get way more flak than they deserve.

Well I do note they only tried to stop the Krogan when an Asari world is attacked.  Do we know if any of the other worlds they gave up belonged to one of the primary council races.  Otherwise, this just reads like, "Hey Krogan, go f**k up and take whatever worlds you want but don't touch any Turian, Asari, or Salarian worlds or we will give you the genophage and basically condemn billions of your children to death while in your womb."

[silverexile17s]

Barquiel wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Funny thing about the Krogan rebellions. The Krogan were stealing worlds from other races, that is what got the Council attacking them. They were pretty much invading and then claiming those worlds as Krogan worlds... BUT, the council didn't give a damn for quite a while. In fact, you know what got them off their asses? When the Krogan stole an Asari world. Before that, the council just ignored the problem because it was being done to less "important" species. It was only when the Asari had it happen to them that they finally decided to do something about it.

The krogan were stealing worlds from all races. There was always 'just one more' needed. Lusia was simply the final straw.

An asari owned straw. Again, none of the other worlds are explisitly listed as being Council-settled until Lusia.

First you blame the council for being the aggressors. Now you're blaming them for not acting sooner. You should really make up your mind. The codex clearly says that the krogan began to annex territory from the council races. I don't know how they can make it any clearer.

edit: ok, I drop it...back to quarians and geth:innocent:

The problem is that they are the aggressors when it directly affects them, then stays on the sidelines when it's not convient to care about it. The attack the krogan because they are a threat to Council holdings. But the geth aren't in Council space anymore because the quarians are kicked from the Citadel races to avoid having to deal with it?
SEE the point? If it directly threatens them, THEN they get off their asses and do something about it. But if it's not a direct threat to them, they could care less. I NEVER changed my mind. My point still stands strong: The Council only cares when it's THEIR asses on the line.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 23 mars 2013 - 03:55 .