4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Thee you go again, trusting only what you see. They spicifically say "these are the last of the A.I.s on the Citadel." That statement is direct proof that there were more then just the three. THAT isn't disputible. The fact that the Council had to send out a kill-squad is also indicative of that. SInce there were supposedly enough A.I.s to be able to file a legal appeal with the Council and have the capitol, and the numbers required for backing such an action, I'd say.... somewhere around 300 at the minimum.

Also, you forget that the geth were literally factory made. Did you take into account that every unit could be instantiniously replaced? So in truth, the geth forces must ahave numbered in the millions at least, in the start of the war, that is, then grew accordingly as the war progressed. Another factor was that they were superior fighters. If 1 billion geth had already existed by the war's start, it wouldn't have been "long and bloody." It would have been quicker then one year. So likely, the number was somewhere between 50 or 60 million. 66 at the most.
And again, we know for a fact that the Council is brash when it comes to A.I.s. We know the geth were not considered sapiant, so they were assumed to be docile. Therefore, it would be assumed they would be killed without little trouble. "The hope was that most of the geth would still be little more then machines, incapable of orginized resistance." ~Tali, ME1.
The Council would have banked on that same thing, and not treated the elimination of the geth any differently then the elimination of those A.I.s. At least, until the geth broke the predictions and launched orginized counterattackes.

And NO.  You're assuming the appeal was a document. From what the A.I.s say, the appeal was a verbal one. And when they DID try to voice it, the Council refused to let them. Get it?
And watch that recording again. They literally DID shoot them in the head as they tied (again) to voice an appeal. They were never allowed the audiance to do so. They literally WERE killed before an appeal could be made.
So it literally WAS shooting them in the head guns blazing before they ever had a chance to make a public appeal. It never made it to the courts. See?

And the squad captian explisitly says "You know the Council will never overturn it's own edict." Also, the event was in the Council Archives, so they knew about it and scanctioned it, meaning that they persoally ordered it is not a stretch by any means. Also, the kill-squad was formed of an asari, and turian, and a salarian. Also, the salarian says "standing by on your go, sir." Meaning the turian is a rank-holder among them.

Also, there's the fact that the V.I timestamp lists the video as "removial of illegal A.I.s." Meaning the A.I.s were considered illegal and were "removed" by Council athouized force. So that's pretty much a clincher, right?

AI - This terminationn action is unlawful.  Why do you continue to with this action when are appeal has not year been heard.

Goons - Keep quiet, you know the council will not overturn it's own edict.

If these goons were working for the Council, they would just say the Council ordered you killed.  They did not.  The above suggests they have acted without officially being told by the Council to kill these AI.  Furthermore,  they just get killed without a fact.

Let's say there were 300 hundred others like you suggest.  You want me to assume that because the Council wiped out 300 AI who at no point resisted that they can take on according to your number 50-60 million Geth.  This would be like arguing that an Army that defeats 300 men will obviously be about to defeat an army of 50-60 million men. 

And then you want me to believe that because the geth are factory made that somehow the Council will find the magic shudown button that the Quarians couldn't.

This makes no sense Silver.  You are free to believe what you want but expecting everyone to take this as canon is silly.  The story never happened and you argument boils down to the Council are reapers who can destroy 50-60 million machines without a significant loss of life.  Let's just ignore that after the MW, they do jack sh*t to the Geth.

Modifié par remydat, 23 mars 2013 - 12:15 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

See? That right there. Lesser organics. There IS NO SUCH THING. It's all living beings. Lableing them like that makes is prejudiced, and makes you look no better then the Citadel Council. And you continue to refuse believeing that it's the exact same for synthetics. That's what being a living beings IS: having those faults. You refuse to believe that synthetics are guilty of having those falts and acting on them the way an organic can. Your logic is: Organic can = will, and synthetic can = won't.
Synthetics are NOT immune to that fear either. WE are something THEY don't understand at all EITHER. They're instinctual fear of us is no different, because we typacally think using emotional responces, which they find illogical. Therefore, fear of emotinal responces motivates them, JUST as much as fear of cold logic motivates organics. SEE?
Synthetics are NO better then organics in that regard. THAT'S what you don't get. They have fear of each-other for the same reasons: the other's sense of logic. It isn't prejudice of appearance or origin. It's the fundamental way both think that the other fears. It's NOT a case of one side fearing and the other not having that fear.
And there ARE laws banning the existance of organic races. Remember the Rachni? The Council scanctioned their genocide. And they have laws against the krogan too.  So that is AGAIN patently false, as being synthetic has nothing to do with the placing of laws against a species.
And so, NO, that is NOT how all conflict kicks off. It's always a coin toss. Also, lose the "Lesser organic" title, as it promotes logic like the Council, in that you believe that there are organics that are patently superior to others, whihc in turn promotes the belief that some forms of life are superior to others, and THAT is prejudice.

But you forget that it wipes out the synthetcis too. If it didn't blame the synthetics, it wouldn't kill them off at the end of the cycles. It would spare them, and the synthetics from the past cycles would still be around, so your entire  belief has a major hole right there.
And synthetics replicate faster then any organic can.

And since the geth all use the Reaper code to upgrade themselves at the end of the Rannoch war, they all fit the bill of Heretics: sacrificing their individually achived future for the sake of the expeidant path. The same thing they destroyed/rewrote the Heretics for doing. So you can't just say they aren't the same when they fell victum to the same weakness. And again, being the rouge agressor, you expect the faction they splintered from to take responcibility for that. The salarians did for their "Leauge of One" group. The Alliance did for Cerberus. The geth should take responcibilty for the Heretics. They threatened countless lives. That should have been the prerequisit for stopping them, not waiting till the geth themselves were inconvieninced by it. Therefore, the geth are also responcible for letting the Heretics get as far as they did. It wasn't just the fault of the Heretics.

And their choice was dependant on MAN Y factors. Quarian agression only got as high as it did because (a) the Reapers were hervesting everything, and the quarians can't fight back effectively in their current state, ( the quarians last hope to have their world back was right now, © the galaxy branded the geth public enemy # 1 since the Battle of the Citadel, so any attacks are seen as vindicated, and (d) the geth did nothing to change any of that negitive outlook. So NO, it ISN"T soley dependant on quarian agression, because it was motivated by desperation, which was in turn caused by the Reapers, and fueled by the geth being publicly listed as Reaper allies,  which the geth in turn did nothing to change. See how this loops around to not taking responcibility for the Heretic again?

Do YOU understand this yet? "Quarian agression" was HALF the formula for the war. The other half was "Geth Apathy." The geth's isolation and strict non-contact policy was just as big a factor in the war as the quarian's desperation was. You again refuse to see the gray in all this. Nothing is ever that simple. To the galaxy, the ones that attacked unprovoked was the geth. Which was never rectified by the true Geth. So to the quarians, and the rest of the galaxy, the geth are the A-holes. THEY started this three years ago at Eden Prime as far as the rest of the galaxy knows.
So from what the galaxy sees, the GETH are the A-holes that motivated the QUARIANS to make the rash decision, not the other way around. That's what the public thinks. Only Shepard & crew ever knows different. It's not the quarian's fault that the geth never tried to fix what the galaxy thought of them.

Holy Sh*t Silver.  Lesser organics is how Leviathan described them.  I used the term to distinguish between Leviathan and its thralls ie lesser organics.  Not because I am prejudiced.  I mean this is getting ridiculous.

Levithan thinks it is better than everyone else and so to some extent does its creation.  Neither of them are prejudiced against any one group in particular.  That is the point.  You just admitted it by saying the Reapers reap synthetics too ie they are not prejudiced for machines and against organics. 

To put things in simple terms, in the absence of any immediate threat to their lives, I have yet to see a lesser synthetic ie NOT THE REAPERS just up and start killing organics.  In the absence of any immediate threat to their lives, I have seen a few instances where lesser organics ie NOT LEVIATHAN decide to kill synthetics even though those synethics have done nothing to them.  So the intial conflict starts because organics decide to kill.

That does not mean machines can't do bad things.  I am not commenting on the entire conflict start to finish.  I am merely stating how it starts as far as I can tell.

That was their arrogance. And YOU said that, and I qoute:
My comment was discussing the conflict between the lesser oganics and
synethetics which I believe to be the result of the lesser organics. 
Organics fear synthetics specifically in a way that is different than
any prejudice it has regarding other fellow organics.
You are still agreeing with the Leviathan's definition of "Lesser races." If you don't agree with it, don't use it. And you still have the prejudice, because you refuse to believe that synthetics can cause the same casting of the first stone. You think it's always the organic responce, when it's always a coin toss.

And thinking you are higher IS the epitimy of being prejudiced. The Leviathans think they are better then the Catalyst. It feels the same in regards to them. They are the same template.
And WRONG. The Reaper's harvest the organics. They purge the synthetics. So, incorrect. My point is that if they DID consider synthetics inncoent, they would leave them intact. They do not. And last I checked, Reapers were created with organics. What happens to the synthetics, since they have no gene srtcuture to convert?
Anihliation. If anything, the Reaper's have no love for synthetics.

And WRONG. Look at the Heretics. Didn't THEY just jump up and start killing for the sake of the Reaper upgrades Sovergien promised them? Isn't THAT an example a faction of synthetics jumping up and killing organics for selfish reasons and self-superiority? Didn't the Heretics start the Eden Prime war for selfish goals and distrust of Organics? Sovergein may have given the offer, but if the geth had no negitive feelings to organics in general, none of them would have accepted.

So in truth, organics are NOT the starting point of all conflict between the two.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

I never once said that the council would wipe out the geth or place sanctions on the quarians.

I said there was evidence to suggest the quarians were AFRAID that they would. Everything we know about the quarians paints them as having questionable decisions making and common sense.

I also never said fear of the council was the only reason they attacked the geth. I just got tired of your "Nah, headcanon brah" excuses.

But you are interjecting in a conversation Silver and I had.  I don't have a problem with anyone saying ther is EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST because that implies they understand they are interpreting information based on facts and circumstantial evidence.  I had a problem with Silver saying what he was saying is canon.  It wasn't.  He was taking facts and then interpreting them to come up with an OPINION and then saying his opinion is canon.  And I already posted in response to Khelish all my examples of my telling people they are free to believe what they want.

tevix wrote...

Finally, I don't care that the quarians attacked first in ME3. The geth allied with the reapers. They would gladly have wiped out all life in the galaxy just to beat the quarians. They didn't keep their conflict with the quarians confined to them, they turned on the galaxy.

Why should I give a crap about them at that point? They become heretics by doing that, and by choice as well. That makes them enemies  .

I never said you had to care about anything.  I told you my opinion and said you are free to have your own.  I mean you are just repeating stuff I already discussed with you and already told you to apply whatever rationale you want.  So really dude, what do you want?  How can I help you?  Because I seriously don't know why you keep acting like someone told you that you had to agree with me.  I in fact told you to apply whatever logic you want.  I

remydat wrote...

Which is why your point about consensus versus not all Quarians siding with their leaders is irrelevant.  You base your decision on who allies with the reapers.  I disagree with that idea but I understand your rationale and you are free to apply it. 

I base my decision on my feeling the Quarians learning nothing from their mistake 300 years ago and once again try to solve a Quarian problem by attacking the Geth.

http://social.biowar...dex/16294666/67

[tevix]

@Remy

Did you just accuse me of butting into a private conversation on a forum?

Also, I've been trying to figure out why you give the geth a pass on being ok with galactic genocide.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Thee you go again, trusting only what you see. They spicifically say "these are the last of the A.I.s on the Citadel." That statement is direct proof that there were more then just the three. THAT isn't disputible. The fact that the Council had to send out a kill-squad is also indicative of that. SInce there were supposedly enough A.I.s to be able to file a legal appeal with the Council and have the capitol, and the numbers required for backing such an action, I'd say.... somewhere around 300 at the minimum.

Also, you forget that the geth were literally factory made. Did you take into account that every unit could be instantiniously replaced? So in truth, the geth forces must ahave numbered in the millions at least, in the start of the war, that is, then grew accordingly as the war progressed. Another factor was that they were superior fighters. If 1 billion geth had already existed by the war's start, it wouldn't have been "long and bloody." It would have been quicker then one year. So likely, the number was somewhere between 50 or 60 million. 66 at the most.
And again, we know for a fact that the Council is brash when it comes to A.I.s. We know the geth were not considered sapiant, so they were assumed to be docile. Therefore, it would be assumed they would be killed without little trouble. "The hope was that most of the geth would still be little more then machines, incapable of orginized resistance." ~Tali, ME1.
The Council would have banked on that same thing, and not treated the elimination of the geth any differently then the elimination of those A.I.s. At least, until the geth broke the predictions and launched orginized counterattackes.

And NO.  You're assuming the appeal was a document. From what the A.I.s say, the appeal was a verbal one. And when they DID try to voice it, the Council refused to let them. Get it?
And watch that recording again. They literally DID shoot them in the head as they tied (again) to voice an appeal. They were never allowed the audiance to do so. They literally WERE killed before an appeal could be made.
So it literally WAS shooting them in the head guns blazing before they ever had a chance to make a public appeal. It never made it to the courts. See?

And the squad captian explisitly says "You know the Council will never overturn it's own edict." Also, the event was in the Council Archives, so they knew about it and scanctioned it, meaning that they persoally ordered it is not a stretch by any means. Also, the kill-squad was formed of an asari, and turian, and a salarian. Also, the salarian says "standing by on your go, sir." Meaning the turian is a rank-holder among them.

Also, there's the fact that the V.I timestamp lists the video as "removial of illegal A.I.s." Meaning the A.I.s were considered illegal and were "removed" by Council athouized force. So that's pretty much a clincher, right?

AI - This terminationn action is unlawful.  Why do you continue to with this action when are appeal has not year been heard.

Goons - Keep quiet, you know the council will not overturn it's own edict.

If these goons were working for the Council, they would just say the Council ordered you killed.  They did not.  The above suggests they have acted without officially being told by the Council to kill these AI.  Furthermore,  they just get killed without a fact.

Let's say there were 300 hundred others like you suggest.  You want me to assume that because the Council wiped out 300 AI who at no point resisted that they can take on according to your number 50-60 million Geth.  This would be like arguing that an Army that defeats 300 men will obviously be about to defeat an army of 50-60 million men. 

And then you want me to believe that because the geth are factory made that somehow the Council will find the magic shudown button that the Quarians couldn't.

This makes no sense Silver.  You are free to believe what you want but expecting everyone to take this as canon is silly.  The story never happened and you argument boils down to the Council are reapers who can destroy 50-60 million machines without a significant loss of life.  Let's just ignore that after the MW, they do jack sh*t to the Geth.

Come on. It's labeled as "Removal of ilegal A.I.s" by the Archives, making it a scanctioned operation. The Council had the recordings and information. They KNEW about it. They SCANCTIONED it. And guess what? Go to ME wiki, pull up the sources, and in the discription, they are listed as C-sec. The source for THAT was hacked game code, in which the unused subtitles (none of the records have subs for some reason. It's in the data, but unused), it describes them all as being C-Sec.
Besides, WHY would any other group kill A.I.s in private?
And WHY would the A.I.s talk to the kill-squad about the Council, if they DIDN'T have an association with them.  They are talking like the kill-squad REPRESENTS a Council command.
EVERYTHING suggests they are acting on FULL COUNCIL ATHOURITY.
Besides, being "under the table" is supposed to be the POINT, remember? They don't want this being public. Do you know anyone ELSE that would want A.I.s on the Citadel killed so badly?


And AGAIN, like the A.I.s, they would assume the geth wouldn't fight back, or were incapable of fighting back. And a Council Fleet is signifigantly more soldiers then a C-Sec kill-squad, remember?
And it's ironic that you accused me on not having any understanding of war, when you fail to realize that they would send more men to deal with more enemies.
Send a squad of cops to deal with a group of rouges.
Send a task force to deal with a large syndacite.
You REALLY think that the Council would use a small squad to deal with that many beings? THAT was your problem with the theroy? The fact that they would increase the number of soldiers sent to deal with a problem that is noticably bigger then the previous one is basic common sense. I didn't think the fact that more soldiers would be sent to deal with a higher number of synthetics NEEDED to be stated. Good grief, if everything has to be broken down so much, no wonder this keeps spinning round and round.
 Since the geth are a much larger group, of COURSE they are going to send more then just that small force then before. They will send an appropriate amount of soldiers, an entire army, like a demilitrization effort, except they are to "dispose" of geth, instead of actual weapons (and then have no clue what they are walking into). They will increase the size of the force to match the size of the problem, so THAT was never a problem factor at all. They would still take the same course of action (Again, not realizing the geth were, unlike the other A.I.s, completely capable and willing to fight back).

And the entire POINT is that the quarians were unable to stop the geth from reproducting and replacing every unit that fell.
And the Council wouldn't even bother looking for a "shutdown button." Unlike the quarians, who are worried about colatoral damage, the Council would just bomb the plants from orbit. The quarian navy didn't, because they didn't want to damage their own infrastructure. The Council has no such qualms.

So YES, it makes perfect sense. YOU are the one that made the assumptions, as I have shown above. YOU are the one that said "oh, they would take the same size force to deal with millions of geth." Something that shouldn't HAVE to be explained, since the idea that they would form a larger force to take on a larger faction is basic common sense. And they would have rushed into battle against the geth, because like the quarians, they would have not known the geth were sapiant and could fight back. After the Council DID know the geth could fight back, and unlike the other A.I.s, were completely willing to do so, THAT'S when they were suddenly less gung-ho about enforcing their anti-A.I. laws, so they took the easy way out and disowned the quarians, so that their lands weren't under Council juristiction anymore, so they didn't have to go and kill the geth anymore unless they felt like it. In laymans terms, they were perfectly willing to attack until they saw the geth weren't the helpless bots they thought they were, and then wussed out and shafted the quarians so that they didn't HAVE to face the problem their own policies already created.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 23 mars 2013 - 12:52 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

That was their arrogance. And YOU said that, and I qoute:
My comment was discussing the conflict between the lesser oganics and
synethetics which I believe to be the result of the lesser organics. 
Organics fear synthetics specifically in a way that is different than
any prejudice it has regarding other fellow organics.
You are still agreeing with the Leviathan's definition of "Lesser races." If you don't agree with it, don't use it. And you still have the prejudice, because you refuse to believe that synthetics can cause the same casting of the first stone. You think it's always the organic responce, when it's always a coin toss.

And thinking you are higher IS the epitimy of being prejudiced. The Leviathans think they are better then the Catalyst. It feels the same in regards to them. They are the same template.
And WRONG. The Reaper's harvest the organics. They purge the synthetics. So, incorrect. My point is that if they DID consider synthetics inncoent, they would leave them intact. They do not. And last I checked, Reapers were created with organics. What happens to the synthetics, since they have no gene srtcuture to convert?
Anihliation. If anything, the Reaper's have no love for synthetics.

And WRONG. Look at the Heretics. Didn't THEY just jump up and start killing for the sake of the Reaper upgrades Sovergien promised them? Isn't THAT an example a faction of synthetics jumping up and killing organics for selfish reasons and self-superiority? Didn't the Heretics start the Eden Prime war for selfish goals and distrust of Organics? Sovergein may have given the offer, but if the geth had no negitive feelings to organics in general, none of them would have accepted.

So in truth, organics are NOT the starting point of all conflict between the two.

My comment was about organics except for Leviathan so I used a term from the game that someone would be able to discern means I am talking about all the organics except for Leviathan.  

Who said anything about innocent?  Do you even know what you are arguing at this point?  The Reapers are not there to decide innocence or guilt.  They are harvesting to preserve life.  They don't care who is at fault.

The Heretics exist after the conflict has already started.  That has nothing to do with the point.  No one said synthetics can do bad things.  I said the conflict ie Organics vs Geth started because of organics.  That is a factual statement.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

That was their arrogance. And YOU said that, and I qoute:
My comment was discussing the conflict between the lesser oganics and
synethetics which I believe to be the result of the lesser organics. 
Organics fear synthetics specifically in a way that is different than
any prejudice it has regarding other fellow organics.
You are still agreeing with the Leviathan's definition of "Lesser races." If you don't agree with it, don't use it. And you still have the prejudice, because you refuse to believe that synthetics can cause the same casting of the first stone. You think it's always the organic responce, when it's always a coin toss.

And thinking you are higher IS the epitimy of being prejudiced. The Leviathans think they are better then the Catalyst. It feels the same in regards to them. They are the same template.
And WRONG. The Reaper's harvest the organics. They purge the synthetics. So, incorrect. My point is that if they DID consider synthetics inncoent, they would leave them intact. They do not. And last I checked, Reapers were created with organics. What happens to the synthetics, since they have no gene srtcuture to convert?
Anihliation. If anything, the Reaper's have no love for synthetics.

And WRONG. Look at the Heretics. Didn't THEY just jump up and start killing for the sake of the Reaper upgrades Sovergien promised them? Isn't THAT an example a faction of synthetics jumping up and killing organics for selfish reasons and self-superiority? Didn't the Heretics start the Eden Prime war for selfish goals and distrust of Organics? Sovergein may have given the offer, but if the geth had no negitive feelings to organics in general, none of them would have accepted.

So in truth, organics are NOT the starting point of all conflict between the two.

My comment was about organics except for Leviathan so I used a term from the game that someone would be able to discern means I am talking about all the organics except for Leviathan.  

Who said anything about innocent?  Do you even know what you are arguing at this point?  The Reapers are not there to decide innocence or guilt.  They are harvesting to preserve life.  They don't care who is at fault.

The Heretics exist after the conflict has already started.  That has nothing to do with the point.  No one said synthetics can do bad things.  I said the conflict ie Organics vs Geth started because of organics.  That is a factual statement.

You JUST said that you view all the conflcit as stemming from organic responces, meaning you see synthetic life as innocent in the equasion of "who started the war."

And that is Blatently wrong, since the geth's vendetta was with the quarians, remember? They had no problem with the Alliance (who were embrasing A.I. research, and were only stymed from continuing it by the Council). It is a completely different species, and THE most sympathetic one to A.I.s out there. So the quarian's war has NO bearing on this. It's a completely different match up, and the Heretics cast the first stone against the Alliance for selfish reasons.
So WRONG. The quarian's war would have NO BEARING on their war with the Alliance.  They started an entirely new conflict.
I repeat, The Heretics started an entirely new conflict.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 23 mars 2013 - 12:57 .

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Did you just accuse me of butting into a private conversation on a forum?

Also, I've been trying to figure out why you give the geth a pass on being ok with galactic genocide.

No, I accused you of joining in and then taking statements out of context.  Have no problem with you joining it.  Just don't take statements and ignore the context they were said in.

And I already answered that question.  If people don't think I should exist and I have to choose between whether I live or they die then they die.  What more needs to be said?  You can agree or disagree but that is why.  

Modifié par remydat, 23 mars 2013 - 01:05 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

You JUST said that you view all the conflcit as stemming from organic responces, meaning you see synthetic life as innocent in the equasion of "who started the war."

And that is Blatently wrong, since the geth's vendetta was with the quarians, remember? They had no problem with the Alliance (who were embrasing A.I. research, and were only stymed from continuing it by the Council). It is a completely different species, and THE most sympathetic one to A.I.s out there. So the quarian's war has NO bearing on this. It's a completely different match up, and the Heretics cast the first stone against the Alliance for selfish reasons.
So WRONG. The quarian's war would have NO BEARING on their war with the Alliance.  They started an entirely new conflict.
I repeat, The Heretics started an entirely new conflict.

Are the Alliance aligned with the Council?  Does the Council have laws saying the Geth should not exist.

Your claim is that the Council laws forced the Quarians to kill the Geth.  That means the Council, the Quarians and anyone who is allied with the Council are enemies of the Geth.  That is pretty much every space faring species in the Galaxy. 

So no, the Heretics did not start a new conflict.  They merely resumed hostilities with organics.  However, they are at fault and should die because they had no real reason to do so.  So you once again are confusing things.  Muslims and Christians have been fighting for a 1,000 years.  The conflict has it's orgins a long time a go.  If someone said one of them started it back in 600 AD that would be a statement of fact if true.  That does not mean that if someone attacks today they are absolved from their crimes.  It just means the attack today is merely a continuation of a much longer and deep seated conflict. 

Modifié par remydat, 23 mars 2013 - 01:09 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

You JUST said that you view all the conflcit as stemming from organic responces, meaning you see synthetic life as innocent in the equasion of "who started the war."

And that is Blatently wrong, since the geth's vendetta was with the quarians, remember? They had no problem with the Alliance (who were embrasing A.I. research, and were only stymed from continuing it by the Council). It is a completely different species, and THE most sympathetic one to A.I.s out there. So the quarian's war has NO bearing on this. It's a completely different match up, and the Heretics cast the first stone against the Alliance for selfish reasons.
So WRONG. The quarian's war would have NO BEARING on their war with the Alliance.  They started an entirely new conflict.
I repeat, The Heretics started an entirely new conflict.

Are the Alliance aligned with the Council?  Does the Council have laws saying the Geth should not exist.

Your claim is that the Council laws forced the Quarians to kill the Geth.  That means the Council, the Quarians and anyone who is allied with the Council are enemies of the Geth.  That is pretty much every space faring species in the Galaxy. 

So no, the Heretics did not start a new conflict.  They merely resumed hostilities with organics.  However, they are at fault and should die because they had no real reason to do so.  So you once again are confusing things.  Muslims and Christians have been fighting for a 1,000 years.  The conflict has it's orgins a long time a go.  If someone said one of them started it back in 600 AD that would be a statement of fact if true.  That does not mean that if someone attacks today they are absolved from their crimes.  It just means the attack today is merely a continuation of a much longer and deep seated conflict. 

Yes, but as we see with the Eliza A.I. (and many other times) the Alliance bends the rules it has with the Council as far as they wil go, just as the quarians did. Except they have much more ambition.

Yes, the Council law prohibits creation of A.I. and forced the quarians to attack the geth. And after the Moirning War, the Council royally pissed themselves at what they would have charged into thinking "oh s***, A.I.s that fight back!", and created a non-agression treaty saying that by Council law, it is ilegal to enter geth space and provoke them, meaning that the Coucil has made all hostility with them now ilegal. So NO. That conflict was Diffinitively isolated between the quarians and geth, and diffinitively over as far as the Council, and now-isolated geth, were concerned. So every race is now prohibited from attacking the geth.
And then the Heretcis cast a move aganst a Race that had absolutly no association with any of the previous parties. So YES, that DOES make it a completely seperate conflict. One perpetuated by the selfish desires of the Heretics. "Resuming hostilities" would have been attacking the quarians. NOT a race/faction that had no bearing or affiliation with any of their agrieved parties. The Heretics willingly decided to shaft every organic race in the galaxy for their own ends, regardless of their ideas on fairness between organics & synthetics. THAT is creating a new conflict, on a much larger scale then before, by bringing every race in the galaxy into it, which the true geth were unwilling to do.
The True Geth have no real grudge against any organic, but no obligation to care about their fates either. They are idle in the scope of things, nither actively perpertuating, nor actively mending the scars of distrust and hate.
The Heretics on the other hand diliberately perpetuate conflict for the sake of furthering their own advancement.
So NO, I am not the one confusing things here. YOU are.


And what the hell are you doing bringing religion into this fight anyway? I thought thet we were to refrain from using such sensitive real-life materials in these debates to avoid offending people?


I will use a sci-fi example. The Vulcans and the Romulans in Star Trek. We all know that the Romulans fought the Vulcans over their respective religions, but went into isolaton after the war. Then, the Romulans come out and abruptly attack Starfleet. Are they resuming the conflict? NO, because their target is a completely different race with different beliefs then the race that they fought before. It's resuming a conflict if it's the same people, culture, and religions you fought before. It's perpetuating a NEW conflict if the race in question is a new culture, religion, and race.

So the point still stands: The Heretics attacked a race they had no grudge with, and likewise had no grudge against them, all to further their self-serving goals.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 23 mars 2013 - 01:49 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Yes, but as we see with the Eliza A.I. (and many other times) the Alliance bends the rules it has with the Council as far as they wil go, just as the quarians did. Except they have much more ambition.

Yes, the Council law prohibits creation of A.I. and forced the quarians to attack the geth. And after the Moirning War, the Council royally pissed themselves at what they would have charged into thinking "oh s***, A.I.s that fight back!", and created a non-agression treaty saying that by Council law, it is ilegal to enter geth space and provoke them, meaning that the Coucil has made all hostility with them now ilegal. So NO. That conflict was Diffinitively isolated between the quarians and geth, and diffinitively over as far as the Council, and now-isolated geth, were concerned. So every race is now prohibited from attacking the geth.
And then the Heretcis cast a move aganst a Race that had absolutly no association with any of the previous parties. So YES, that DOES make it a completely seperate conflict. One perpetuated by the selfish desires of the Heretics. "Resuming hostilities" would have been attacking the quarians. NOT a race/faction that had no bearing or affiliation with any of their agrieved parties. The Heretics willingly decided to shaft every organic race in the galaxy for their own ends, regardless of their ideas on fairness between organics & synthetics. THAT is creating a new conflict, on a much larger scale then before, by bringing every race in the galaxy into it, which the true geth were unwilling to do.
The True Geth have no real grudge against any organic, but no obligation to care about their fates either. They are idle in the scope of things, nither actively perpertuating, nor actively mending the scars of distrust and hate.
The Heretics on the other hand diliberately perpetuate conflict for the sake of furthering their own advancement.
So NO, I am not the one confusing things here. YOU are.


And what the hell are you doing bringing religion into this fight anyway? I thought thet we were to refrain from using such sensitive real-life materials in these debates to avoid offending people?


I will use a sci-fi example. The Vulcans and the Romulans in Star Trek. We all know that the Romulans fought the Vulcans over their respective religions, but went into isolaton after the war. Then, the Romulans come out and abruptly attack Starfleet. Are they resuming the conflict? NO, because their target is a completely different race with different beliefs then the race that they fought before. It's resuming a conflict if it's the same people, culture, and religions you fought before. It's perpetuating a NEW conflict if the race in question is a new culture, religion, and race.

So the point still stands: The Heretics attacked a race they had no grudge with, and likewise had no grudge against them, all to further their self-serving goals.

A conflict ends when both sides agree to peace.  There was no peace agreement.  

There are different races of humans but they all follow the Alliance.  To an Asari, they don't care about a black human or a white human, they are f**king humans.  When the Alliance starts a conflict the rest of the Galaxy presumes they speak for all humans.  

All organics are in one way or another aligned with the Council.  The Council says Geth should not exist.  From the Geth perspective the Council and the Qurians attempt at Genocide speaks for all organics. 

Doesn't chaange the fact the Heretics deserve to die for their actions.  But same conflict, different battle.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Yes, but as we see with the Eliza A.I. (and many other times) the Alliance bends the rules it has with the Council as far as they wil go, just as the quarians did. Except they have much more ambition.

Yes, the Council law prohibits creation of A.I. and forced the quarians to attack the geth. And after the Moirning War, the Council royally pissed themselves at what they would have charged into thinking "oh s***, A.I.s that fight back!", and created a non-agression treaty saying that by Council law, it is ilegal to enter geth space and provoke them, meaning that the Coucil has made all hostility with them now ilegal. So NO. That conflict was Diffinitively isolated between the quarians and geth, and diffinitively over as far as the Council, and now-isolated geth, were concerned. So every race is now prohibited from attacking the geth.
And then the Heretcis cast a move aganst a Race that had absolutly no association with any of the previous parties. So YES, that DOES make it a completely seperate conflict. One perpetuated by the selfish desires of the Heretics. "Resuming hostilities" would have been attacking the quarians. NOT a race/faction that had no bearing or affiliation with any of their agrieved parties. The Heretics willingly decided to shaft every organic race in the galaxy for their own ends, regardless of their ideas on fairness between organics & synthetics. THAT is creating a new conflict, on a much larger scale then before, by bringing every race in the galaxy into it, which the true geth were unwilling to do.
The True Geth have no real grudge against any organic, but no obligation to care about their fates either. They are idle in the scope of things, nither actively perpertuating, nor actively mending the scars of distrust and hate.
The Heretics on the other hand diliberately perpetuate conflict for the sake of furthering their own advancement.
So NO, I am not the one confusing things here. YOU are.


And what the hell are you doing bringing religion into this fight anyway? I thought thet we were to refrain from using such sensitive real-life materials in these debates to avoid offending people?


I will use a sci-fi example. The Vulcans and the Romulans in Star Trek. We all know that the Romulans fought the Vulcans over their respective religions, but went into isolaton after the war. Then, the Romulans come out and abruptly attack Starfleet. Are they resuming the conflict? NO, because their target is a completely different race with different beliefs then the race that they fought before. It's resuming a conflict if it's the same people, culture, and religions you fought before. It's perpetuating a NEW conflict if the race in question is a new culture, religion, and race.

So the point still stands: The Heretics attacked a race they had no grudge with, and likewise had no grudge against them, all to further their self-serving goals.

A conflict ends when both sides agree to peace.  There was no peace agreement.  

There are different races of humans but they all follow the Alliance.  To an Asari, they don't care about a black human or a white human, they are f**king humans.  When the Alliance starts a conflict the rest of the Galaxy presumes they speak for all humans.  

All organics are in one way or another aligned with the Council.  The Council says Geth should not exist.  From the Geth perspective the Council and the Qurians attempt at Genocide speaks for all organics. 

Doesn't chaange the fact the Heretics deserve to die for their actions.  But same conflict, different battle.

The True Geth certinly didn't come out of the Veil. They abandoned anything to do with organics either way. No attampt, no risk.
And technically, their WAS an agreement. The Council imposed a non-agression treaty on the quarians, which they upheld (Until the Heretcis attacked and got the title of public enenmy #1 branded on all geth, which the true geth did squat to fix). And the geth, again, wanted nothing to do with perpetuating conflict of any kind, so long as they were left to their own mechinations. So, if one side doesn't want to attack, and the other side has signed an agreement not to attack, HOW is that not a peace agreement?

And look at the batarians. They explisitly blame humans for all their troubles. NOT the Council, humans. And despite the feelings, they still maintain trade relations (albiet discreat ones) with the hanar. Meaning that NO, being part of an overreaching sociaty does NOT mean the entire sociaty is involved in continued conflict. The Alliance were not part of the Council when the Morning War tool place. They have ideals that are completely opposate of the majority of Council policy. Therefore, they are NOT part of the conflict (which ended with the Morning War. ) You have confused the scars left by the end of the conflict as being a continuation of the Conflict.

And the batarians aren't. The vorcha aren't.  The krogan. The rachni. These races AREN'T allied with the Council, or respect/reconize it's athourity and rules.

And again, the geth show no signs of wanting to continue the fighting as it is inneficant and wasteful to them. They don't develop any form of moral till much later. By ME1, the True Geth are stated by Legion to feel a kind of remorse for the masive death they wrought (although it doesn't stop them from killing more if it means their survival). The True Geth are done with war and conflict. They "stopped devoting processing power to it" long ago, and to dealing with organics in general. They completely let go of any form of care about organics.
So YES, the conflict was LONG OVER from the geth POV. Therefore, the conflict the Heretics perpetuated with the Alliance (a faction that nothing to do with the Morning War at all) was a completely different conflict entirely, and perpetuated by the selfishness of the Heretics, who didn't care about organics, or living beings in general because they placed self-improvement over valuing life in general - including other synthetic life, as shown by the Heretics instigating agression against the True Geth with the plan to brainwash them into joining the Heretics.

So, WRONG. Different conflict AND different battle.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 23 mars 2013 - 03:59 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

remydat wrote...



A conflict ends when both sides agree to peace.  There was no peace agreement.  


Doesn't chaange the fact the Heretics deserve to die for their actions.  But same conflict, different battle.

2 Things:

1) Peace could end with one side being Vanquished.

2) Heretics deserve to be re-written so they can SERVE AS MY MINIONS!!

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

/Sarcasm

[silverexile17s]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

remydat wrote...



A conflict ends when both sides agree to peace.  There was no peace agreement.  


Doesn't chaange the fact the Heretics deserve to die for their actions.  But same conflict, different battle.

2 Things:

1) Peace could end with one side being Vanquished.

2) Heretics deserve to be re-written so they can SERVE AS MY MINIONS!!

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

/Sarcasm

So, in terms of save vs kill,  you agree with @remydat in that they deserve to die? I've done it both ways before. (My first playthrough, I forgave them. Second playthrough, I killed them. ) But, since I think you've been on the fence here (wasn't at the very start of the first page of the thread), what IS your belief on how you handle the Heretics?
Because there seems an even split between giving them a chance to repent, and not trusting them.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 23 mars 2013 - 06:12 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

remydat wrote...



A conflict ends when both sides agree to peace.  There was no peace agreement.  


Doesn't chaange the fact the Heretics deserve to die for their actions.  But same conflict, different battle.

2) Heretics deserve to be re-written so they can SERVE AS MY MINIONS!!

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

/Sarcasm

False. Purging heretics is the only way!! *dons inquisitor cap*

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I always kill the heretics.

They willingly sided with the Reapers. You don't get to walk away from that.

[silverexile17s]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I always kill the heretics.

They willingly sided with the Reapers. You don't get to walk away from that.

I admit, the Heretics are extremely selfish. They perpetuated a galactic war and almost brought about the end of galactic life as we know it for personal gain.
It really doens't get much worse then that, does it?
Still, I've also seen others who say that it's a fitting punishment to let them fall victim to their own plan. Although, that bites them in the ass when the Heretics convence more geth then there would have been to join the Reapers.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 23 mars 2013 - 06:15 .

[Raiil]

Geth don't have any of the pathetic, pitiful weaknesses that organics have. (Bathroom, food, water, sleep, socializing, wants, needs, etc. etc.)

Apparently incorrect, since the Geth are a hind mind, which requires persistent socialisation. They also have some resource needs, albeit not the same as organics. Nothing last forever- that includes hardware and fuel for their ships.

They are only limited by supplies and the amount of Geth. With the Full AI upgrade they are like EDI but in a Prime/Colossus platform.

Without knowing the technicalities of the Reaper upgrade, this may not be the case. We only have Legion to compare as a before/after of a Geth, and even then Legion was a unique model even in regards to the other Geth. EDI is, and always has been (in her current incarnation) a single-minded platform. No known 'sentient' Geth is like that.

So, with full AI upgrades: Do Geth have Souls? or At the VERY least should be saved?

From my perspective? Yes. To me, the soul is the knowledge and actualisation of one's self. The moment they began to ponder whether they had one, they had one. I'm a strong believer of 'I think; therefore, I am'= any race that persistently has the ability to question the self and the world on a level above 'I need to feed my young' and the most basic self-preservation. Culture, art, the brain power for existential pondering, to me that defines sapiency and sentience.

[silverexile17s]

Valentia X wrote...

Geth don't have any of the pathetic, pitiful weaknesses that organics have. (Bathroom, food, water, sleep, socializing, wants, needs, etc. etc.)

Apparently incorrect, since the Geth are a hind mind, which requires persistent socialisation. They also have some resource needs, albeit not the same as organics. Nothing last forever- that includes hardware and fuel for their ships.

They are only limited by supplies and the amount of Geth. With the Full AI upgrade they are like EDI but in a Prime/Colossus platform.

Without knowing the technicalities of the Reaper upgrade, this may not be the case. We only have Legion to compare as a before/after of a Geth, and even then Legion was a unique model even in regards to the other Geth. EDI is, and always has been (in her current incarnation) a single-minded platform. No known 'sentient' Geth is like that.

So, with full AI upgrades: Do Geth have Souls? or At the VERY least should be saved?

From my perspective? Yes. To me, the soul is the knowledge and actualisation of one's self. The moment they began to ponder whether they had one, they had one. I'm a strong believer of 'I think; therefore, I am'= any race that persistently has the ability to question the self and the world on a level above 'I need to feed my young' and the most basic self-preservation. Culture, art, the brain power for existential pondering, to me that defines sapiency and sentience.

Actually, that's not true. Tali spicifcially says that Hive Mind is precicely the wrong word for it. The Correct term would be a Concensis. Thousands of beings working to find the bets solution. A Hive Mind is incapable of having different opinions. Consensis inteligences like the geth are thousands of individuals that each ave different opinions coming together. Like a mass cooperative group, instead of a hive intelligence.

Also, Legion states that the avarage geth platform has 100 programs running on it. So, say a Geth Prime needs 1,000 to functioin. After the Reaper upgrade, only one program is needed per platform, and 100 for a Prime,  inrcreasing their effectiveness by at least 300 - 400%

Modifié par silverexile17s, 23 mars 2013 - 08:00 .

[Bill Casey]

silverexile17s wrote...

Because there seems an even split between giving them a chance to repent, and not trusting them.

That's not actually the choice...
The choice in the Heretic mission is brainwashing or death...
There's no "giving them a chance to repent" option...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 23 mars 2013 - 08:17 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Bill Casey wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Because there seems an even split between giving them a chance to repent, and not trusting them.

That's not actually the choice...
The choice in the Heretic mission is brainwashing or death...
There's no "giving them a chance to repent" option...

Death it is then!

[silverexile17s]

Bill Casey wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Because there seems an even split between giving them a chance to repent, and not trusting them.

That's not actually the choice...
The choice in the Heretic mission is brainwashing or death...
There's no "giving them a chance to repent" option...

Isn't letting them live and return to the geth the same thing as letting them repent?

[Da Don Giovanni]

silverexile17s wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Because there seems an even split between giving them a chance to repent, and not trusting them.

That's not actually the choice...
The choice in the Heretic mission is brainwashing or death...
There's no "giving them a chance to repent" option...

Isn't letting them live and return to the geth the same thing as letting them repent?

It's like Accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. You FIRST have to REPENT of your sins and acknowledge that he is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, the fairest of 10,000, the Bright and the Morning Star.

Heretic Geth would have to acknowledge that they messed up HORRIBLY by siding with Harbinger.

Otherwise it's not repenting.

Owning up to their mistakes by siding with organics and defeating Harbinger would be one thing.

Admitting to organics they did wrong and are sorry and ask for forgiveness for siding with Harbinger would be repenting.

Modifié par Da Don Giovanni, 23 mars 2013 - 09:20 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Geth. At least the geth occasionally show some intelligence, the quarians are consistently stupid and by the time ME3 came around and I found they had stupidly decided to attack the geth while the freaking Reapers were gonna start eating everyone, I had had enough.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I'm fairly certain siding with the mecha-cuttlefish twice crosses into too dumb to live territory...