4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Iamjdr]

What proof did the quarians have that the Geth wanted peace? Legion saying that they did? So what about the thousand of heretics the attacked the citadel? Taking legion at his word is honestly just as hard for the galaxy as it is for us to the listen to the starchild at the end of the game cause there is no proof backing there wild claims. And How exactly is it dumb to go to war with the reapers main ALLIES. the only time anyone in the galaxy had ever seen a reaper he had a massive fleet of Geth right behind him. Who in the hell would wait to see if the Geth are gonna just join up with them again until after it's to late? for all anyone in the galaxy know the Geth will be right behind the reapers when they attack again.

[Iamjdr]

And in me2 the council said sovereign was a Geth flagship. If that is what the council told the public then how exactly do you think the galaxy sees the Geth? As possible allies?

[Auld Wulf]

Are we playing the "at least" game?

At least the geth never strapped guns to the ships of non-combatants and threw them out there to die.

When will people accept that there has been wrong done on BOTH sides?

[Ryzaki]

CHARK19 wrote...

"Shepar'ld, my people!"
"Shepard, Commander- MY people."
My Shepard saved both. "Keelah 'selai."

Then chose Destroy, because.

I chose it because BW plot railroading meant it was the only way to actually...destroy the Reapers.



ME3 ending makes me sad.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

I don't think YOU understand, which is expected.
If one side DOESN'T want to fight, and the other SIGNED AN AGREEMENT not to fight, THAT'S a peace agreement. Nither side will fight the other. The quarians explisitly signed a non-agression treaty. And the geth had no intentions of perpetuating a conflict at all. So by extension, that IS a peace agreement if nither side is willing or able to take part in hostilities.
And WRONG. From the geth perspective, all organics are an annoyance. A factor not worth devoting processing power to. If they DID consider all organics enemies, then they would have come out of the Veil and attacked the fleet the Council had on their borders. Or ALL the geth would have joined Sovergein, not just 7% of them. They stopped caring either way. They let go of all concerns, AND all grudges.
The Heretics didn't martch to war because they disliked organics. That's a mistake to believe. They ONLY followed Sovergien for the oppertunity to self-improve. The entire POINT was the Heretics - they DIDN'T care about organics, and put themselves ahead of all life in general, including other geth, as evidenced by their split from the True Geth.

Therefore, the Heretics started an entirely different conflict, as none of the past grudges existed on the organic side, and the geth themselves don't hold grudges to begin with.
So, regardless of what you say, your belief that the Heretics were continuing the Morning War is patently false, as nither side had grudges against each-other, or each-other's forms of life. The Heretics perpetuated a new conflict.
Nothing you say out of headcannon will change that.

A peace agreement between yourself ie the Council and the people it governs is not a peace agreemnt when the other party has not agreed to it.  Really nothing more to say.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

But look how the Alliance was blamed for not handling Cerberus. And the Alliance DID work to take care of it's rouge factions. No one is holding the geth respincible for the creation of the Heretics. They are holding the geth responcible for not DOING ANYTHING about the Heretcis.
The salarians did something about their rouge "Leauge of One" faction
The Alliance took responcibility for bringing down Cerberus.
Why exactally do the geth get a free pass on taking responcibility for the Heretics?

Cerberus attackes Alliance and allies of the Alliance.  That is why the Alliance tries to stop it.  If Cerberus sole mission was to attack the Geth, I don't think any body would care non-agression pack or not just like no one moved to stop the Quarians from attacking the Geth.

So you are not comparing the same thing.  It is completely logical to try and stop people from hurting you or your allies.  It is completely illogical to concern yourself with Rogue humans attacking your enemies.

[remydat]

4stringwizard wrote...

Don't forget siding with the Reapers AND hiding things from Shepard at the same time, which is what Legion does. 

Personally, I think Bioware should have made it so that if you side with the Geth, they end up betraying you if the Geth VI is in charge rather than Legion.  Yeah it would have pi**ed the Geth fanboys off, but it would have been a lot more realistic given the VI's attidue toward organics.  Unlike Legion, the Geth VI seemed like something that would betray Shepard in a heartbeat if it felt like the Reapers still had the advantage. 

Personally I feel like Bioware should have made it so if you side with Admiral Gherel, he ends up during the Reaper War ignoring your orders for the 3rd time but this time causes a **** load of people to die so it would be more realistic that stubborn a**holes who don't listen to others are not reliable during war time.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

What proof did the quarians have that the Geth wanted peace? Legion saying that they did? So what about the thousand of heretics the attacked the citadel? Taking legion at his word is honestly just as hard for the galaxy as it is for us to the listen to the starchild at the end of the game cause there is no proof backing there wild claims. And How exactly is it dumb to go to war with the reapers main ALLIES. the only time anyone in the galaxy had ever seen a reaper he had a massive fleet of Geth right behind him. Who in the hell would wait to see if the Geth are gonna just join up with them again until after it's to late? for all anyone in the galaxy know the Geth will be right behind the reapers when they attack again.

We don't have proof we have evidence.  We can interpret that how we want.

And what proof to we have that Admiral Gherel can follow orders in war when he ignores Shepard and Tali twice?  

Either way you are taking a leap of faith.  I know one thing, organics have a longer history of being manipulative and unreliable bastards.

[Spartas Husky]

Geth, i've only met 2 quarians worth my trust. Kalreegar and Tali. The entire Geth Collective backed me up. Compared to 2 quarians. What is that a few billion to 2 ratio?

Geth

[justafan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Are we playing the "at least" game?

At least the geth never strapped guns to the ships of non-combatants and threw them out there to die.

When will people accept that there has been wrong done on BOTH sides?

Uh, FYI, every single Geth ship, big and small, is armed, there is no "at least".  And they sent their ships to die at Tikkun, despite knowing full well the Quarians had a weapon that disrupted their targetting.

But I agree that both sides are at fault.

[remydat]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Geth, i've only met 2 quarians worth my trust. Kalreegar and Tali. The entire Geth Collective backed me up. Compared to 2 quarians. What is that a few billion to 2 ratio?

Geth

And don't forget Kal Reager dies.  Although Admiral Koris is probably a third.  That dude is cool with me.

[4stringwizard]

remydat wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

What proof did the quarians have that the Geth wanted peace? Legion saying that they did? So what about the thousand of heretics the attacked the citadel? Taking legion at his word is honestly just as hard for the galaxy as it is for us to the listen to the starchild at the end of the game cause there is no proof backing there wild claims. And How exactly is it dumb to go to war with the reapers main ALLIES. the only time anyone in the galaxy had ever seen a reaper he had a massive fleet of Geth right behind him. Who in the hell would wait to see if the Geth are gonna just join up with them again until after it's to late? for all anyone in the galaxy know the Geth will be right behind the reapers when they attack again.

We don't have proof we have evidence.  We can interpret that how we want.

And what proof to we have that Admiral Gherel can follow orders in war when he ignores Shepard and Tali twice?  

Either way you are taking a leap of faith.  I know one thing, organics have a longer history of being manipulative and unreliable bastards.

Gherel is an admiral.  He doesn't have to take orders from Tali or Shepard.  Not excusing what he did, but firing on the dreadnaught was a good strategy.  Yeah it was a real d*ck move, but one can't deny he was right that the Geth dreadnaught was a perfect target (and Shepard has the ability to do plenty of d*ck moves as well).  Yeah Gherel was a jerk in ME3, but he knows how to fight a war. 

Regarding your last point: Legion himself flat-out states the Geth are just as untrustworthy as organics. 

[remydat]

justafan wrote...


Uh, FYI, every single Geth ship, big and small, is armed, there is no "at least".  And they sent their ships to die at Tikkun, despite knowing full well the Quarians had a weapon that disrupted their targetting.

But I agree that both sides are at fault.

Yeah but the Geth don't cry about civilians dying like the Quarians and their supporters do.  I think the point was don't cry about civilian deaths as if the Quarians don't use civilians in war.  It is their fault those civilians die.

[4stringwizard]

remydat wrote...

justafan wrote...


Uh, FYI, every single Geth ship, big and small, is armed, there is no "at least".  And they sent their ships to die at Tikkun, despite knowing full well the Quarians had a weapon that disrupted their targetting.

But I agree that both sides are at fault.

Yeah but the Geth don't cry about civilians dying like the Quarians and their supporters do.  I think the point was don't cry about civilian deaths as if the Quarians don't use civilians in war.  It is their fault those civilians die.

That's because the Geth have no civilians.  And thus they have nothing against the slaughter millions of organic civilians - not just Quarian ones either. 

[justafan]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Geth, i've only met 2 quarians worth my trust. Kalreegar and Tali. The entire Geth Collective backed me up. Compared to 2 quarians. What is that a few billion to 2 ratio?

Geth

So, the same collective that was content to let you be harvested by Reapers in ME1 is worthy of your trust?  Good to know.  I don't know about you, but the only Geth that didn't shoot me on sight was Legion and the Geth Prime, but the Prime was only AFTER peace was achieved.

And  I don't recall the Geth Collective backing me up.  I appreciate that they believe me about the Reapers, as much as I appreciate the Quarians believing me about the Reapers.  But a pledge of support would have been nice, the Quarians told me they were building their fleet to help.  For all I know, the Geth were just going to play isolationist defense like they have for the past 300 years, while the rest of the Galaxy was on it's own.

[justafan]

remydat wrote...

justafan wrote...


Uh, FYI, every single Geth ship, big and small, is armed, there is no "at least".  And they sent their ships to die at Tikkun, despite knowing full well the Quarians had a weapon that disrupted their targetting.

But I agree that both sides are at fault.

Yeah but the Geth don't cry about civilians dying like the Quarians and their supporters do.  I think the point was don't cry about civilian deaths as if the Quarians don't use civilians in war.  It is their fault those civilians die.

I would count running to the Reapers after signifiant losses to be "crying".  The Geth just don't articulate it in the same way.  But it is true there is no Geth civilian, or maybe there is, hiveminds are complicated.

Modifié par justafan, 23 mars 2013 - 10:55 .

[remydat]

4stringwizard wrote...

That's because the Geth have no civilians.  And thus they have nothing against the slaughter millions of organic civilians - not just Quarian ones either. 

But there are not civilians if they are engaged in way.  If you strap guns to a civilian ship and fire, you are not a civilian, you are an enemy combatant.  The fundamental problem here is like you say, the Geth have no concept of civilains.  They were farming and mining units thrust into war because of the Quarians.  Civilians tried to shut them down and kill them as did Soldiers.  We know civilains also fight in wars.  So ho we exactly are Geth suppose to understand the concept of civilains when it doesn't exist in their society and the society that it allegedly exists in keeps using those civilains in war like any other enemy combatant?

[remydat]

justafan wrote...

I would count running to the Reapers after signifiant losses to be "crying".  The Geth just don't articulate it in the same way.  But it is true there is no Geth civilian, or maybe there is, hiveminds are complicated.

They weren't crying about civilian losses.  They were crying about extinction.  The point is using the Geth killed civilians and thus they are bad argument is weak because:

1.  The Geth don't have that concept in their society.

2.  Civilians and Soldiers tried to kill the Geth and the Quarians use civilians in war and thus the Geth have no reason to see them all as anything but enemies that need to be killed.

So people need to stop throwing out civilains as a means to appeal to emotion.  When the Quarians stop using civilians to try and kill the Geth, then maybe the Geth can learn the difference between the two.

[Spartas Husky]

remydat wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Geth, i've only met 2 quarians worth my trust. Kalreegar and Tali. The entire Geth Collective backed me up. Compared to 2 quarians. What is that a few billion to 2 ratio?

Geth

And don't forget Kal Reager dies.  Although Admiral Koris is probably a third.  That dude is cool with me.

I know, but the admiral koris isn't kool with me. he is too much of a pacifist. Walk solftly yet carry a big stick. Simply ignoring their homeworld and giving up to the geth isn't an option. Although he did grew on me a bit during ME3.

Had he proposed speaking to the geth rather than simply giving up on the planet throughout his career it may have gone differently.

So he is almost there, but too much of a wimp when it counted. yes he performed admirably but he would have simply gone and hidden under a rock rather than even open dialogue with the Geth.

It wasn't only until you bring Legion onboard that he thinks MAYBE diplomacy is possible. There is no middle ground with any of them.

tali's aunt is a pushover which in my headcanon gets convicted of genocide along with the other two admirals, Xen and warlord one. Forgot his name.

Koris is a coward in every sense, neither fighting, nor courage in trying to talk. And tali's father is doing all the wrong things for the right reasons. His name is intact only because Tali is my friend.

[4stringwizard]

remydat wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

That's because the Geth have no civilians.  And thus they have nothing against the slaughter millions of organic civilians - not just Quarian ones either. 

But there are not civilians if they are engaged in way.  If you strap guns to a civilian ship and fire, you are not a civilian, you are an enemy combatant.  The fundamental problem here is like you say, the Geth have no concept of civilains.  They were farming and mining units thrust into war because of the Quarians.  Civilians tried to shut them down and kill them as did Soldiers.  We know civilains also fight in wars.  So ho we exactly are Geth suppose to understand the concept of civilains when it doesn't exist in their society and the society that it allegedly exists in keeps using those civilains in war like any other enemy combatant?

So you trust a race that betrays you by siding with the Reapers twice, goes behind your back, AND has no concept of civilians in organic terms?  Very sound logic there bro. 

[Spartas Husky]

justafan wrote...



So, the same collective that was content to let you be harvested by Reapers in ME1 is worthy of your trust?  Good to know.

Is a little ackward you dont make the effort to make a distiction between the heretics and the true geth so yeah.
Following your own logic all humans are cerberus and all cerberus are human.

Sounds alright I guess.

[justafan]

remydat wrote...

justafan wrote...

I would count running to the Reapers after signifiant losses to be "crying".  The Geth just don't articulate it in the same way.  But it is true there is no Geth civilian, or maybe there is, hiveminds are complicated.

They weren't crying about civilian losses.  They were crying about extinction.  The point is using the Geth killed civilians and thus they are bad argument is weak because:

1.  The Geth don't have that concept in their society.

2.  Civilians and Soldiers tried to kill the Geth and the Quarians use civilians in war and thus the Geth have no reason to see them all as anything but enemies that need to be killed.

So people need to stop throwing out civilains as a means to appeal to emotion.  When the Quarians stop using civilians to try and kill the Geth, then maybe the Geth can learn the difference between the two.

The Geth have a perfectly logical reason to target every Quarian ship during ME3.  I won't dispute that, from their perspective, every ship is attacking them, and are thus legitimate targets (up until a certain point).  The problem is, when deciding who to save, it is a valid point to bring up the issue of civilians.  The Geth are a hivemind, every action of any Geth is the action of EVERY Geth.  Both their crimes and their justifications are universal.  

With the Quarians, it is entirely different,  the actions of the captains and admirals do not reflect the universal guilt or innocence of the Quarian species.  While every Geth has participated in the Morning War,  the actions which put the Quarians in the position where they are forced to rely on civilians in war, the decision to join the reapers, etc.  The same is not true of the Quarians.  If you look at the decision on Rannoch from the perspective of "Which choice will save to most innocent lives", which I believe to be the basis of the decision, you have to take into account the presence of civilians and individuals on one side, and the total lack on the other.

Modifié par justafan, 23 mars 2013 - 11:10 .

[justafan]

Spartas Husky wrote...

justafan wrote...



So, the same collective that was content to let you be harvested by Reapers in ME1 is worthy of your trust?  Good to know.

Is a little ackward you dont make the effort to make a distiction between the heretics and the true geth so yeah.
Following your own logic all humans are cerberus and all cerberus are human.

Sounds alright I guess.

I did distinguish.  The Heretics participated in the harvest.  I was referring to the orthodox Geth who simply knew what was coming and were content to do nothing.

[Auld Wulf]

So, here's an interesting thing...

An official infographic tells us that the majority either chose peace or sided with the geth. That's a sobering realisation.

It's also a worthy addition to this thread.

[justafan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

So, here's an interesting thing...

An official infographic tells us that the majority either chose peace or sided with the geth. That's a sobering realisation.

It's also a worthy addition to this thread.

I do find that interesting.  I wonder how much of it has to do with new players?  By definition, those 36% of peace players played ME2, I wonder how much a "new to the series" perspective has on the decision, as ME3 was heavily marketed as "The perfect entry point" for new players.

From personal experience, I worked at a summer camp and a few of the campers were ME3 players, and none had played the previous games.  They unanimously chose the Geth over Quarians (though they were all young and the reasoning boiled down to "robots are cool").  And honestly, I can't blame them.  If you look through this thread, most justifications for choosing the Quarians comes from knowledge gained in ME1 and ME2 and applying that to ME3, while most evidence for supporting the Geth comes from ME3.

Modifié par justafan, 23 mars 2013 - 11:22 .