4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

justafan wrote...

The Geth have a perfectly logical reason to target every Quarian ship during ME3.  I won't dispute that, from their perspective, every ship is attacking them, and are thus legitimate targets (up until a certain point).  The problem is, when deciding who to save, it is a valid point to bring up the issue of civilians.  The Geth are a hivemind, every action of any Geth is the action of EVERY Geth.  Both their crimes and their justifications are universal.  

With the Quarians, it is entirely different,  the actions of the captains and admirals do not reflect the universal guilt or innocence of the Quarian species.  While every Geth has participated in the Morning War,  the actions which put the Quarians in the position where they are forced to rely on civilians in war, the decision to join the reapers, etc.  The same is not true of the Quarians.  If you look at the decision on Rannoch from the perspective of "Which choice will save to most innocent lives", which I believe to be the basis of the decision, you have to take into account the presence of civilians and individuals on one side, and the total lack on the other.

The Geth are a consenus or democracy.  They vote and the majority wins.  We know there are dissenting votes but the Geth defer to the majority.  The Quarians defer to their Admirals.  This is like me saying I will judge not on right and wrong but which government I prefer.  That is illogical.  The way you choose to govern has no bearing on whether the choices you make are right or wrong.  You can't claim the Quarians defered to their admirals when that is the government they chose as if the Geth or disagreed with the Consensus as we know they do are doing any different.  Legion disagreed with the rest of the Geth but just like a Quarian deferred to his leaders.

It is perfectly fine if you view it by what will save the most lives.  I base it on who is the agressor ie who is wrong because that is how society judge things.  We don't establish laws but then say let's disregard right and wrong and judge by who is more sympathetic.  If a nation is judged to be wrong then that nation is punished with sanctions or war and that burden is born by its citizens.  I don't sit there and say well this nation has a larger population so let's ignore who we think is wrong and vote for them because they have more people.

And no I don't have to take into account civilians when by the definitions of war they are not civilains.  Once you pick up a gun and fire it at an enemy, you lose the rights and protections you are deemed ot have as a civilians.  THose civilains were conscripted soliders.

[Auld Wulf]

justafan wrote...

I did distinguish.  The Heretics participated in the harvest.  I was referring to the orthodox Geth who simply knew what was coming and were content to do nothing.

Yes, but you're not being intellectually honest.

The geth have been hunted by organics since the birth of their existence, all they've known is that if organics ever side with them, then those organics die too. See: The Morning War information revealed in the consensus mission. Ultimately, the quarian military were more than willing to kill however many of their own as was necessary in order to get at the geth. Which might have been millions for all we know.

So, the old machines talk to the geth and tell them that this is standard practise. That they will deal with the organics via harvesting so that they no longer have to fear for their existence. And that organics will finally lose their endless hatred for all things different and strange when they become Reaper entities. The orthodox geth shrug, it doesn't seem like a bad thing since those organics just seem to be sacks of water and hate (from their perspective), but at the same time they don't want to dole out any harm to them.

This causes a divide which creates the heretic geth, as they believe that organics deserve to pay for what's been done to them. This divide may or may not exist because of Reaper tampering. The orthodox geth tell the heretical geth that tehy don't understand their desires, and that they find them illogical, but after all the war and death they're tired of fighting. They continue to not fight up until the time period of Mass Effect 3. All the while, the heretical geth keep telling the orthodox geth that only the old machines will be their salvation.

The orthodox geth continue to not believe this. In fact, they magnanimously choose to give Rannoch back to the quarians. They build a megastructure in space so that they can leave Rannoch so that it can be reoccupied by the quarians. Their megastructure has no weapons or defences (as revealed by Legion), and it's not meant to be an artifact of war. A simple scan of the structure would have revealed their intent. However, Han'Gerrel chose to carpet bomb the megastructure.

Huge numbers of orthodox geth programs were lost when this happened, as revealed by Legion, and the ones that survived feared for their very existence. They began to accept that maybe the heretical geth were correct, that perhaps organics are nothing more than nasty sacks of water and hate, and that organics would always do everything within their power to destroy them. Han'Gerrel did as much as he was able to to drive this point home, to make this view of organics the only one the geth had.

As such, the orthodox geth gave up. After hundreds of years of being magnanimous, non-combative, and completely peaceful, they sided with the heretics and accepted the help of the old machines. All they wanted to do was survive, to see another day. Essentially, the quarians did to the geth what the Reapers did to earth. In fact, the quarian act was worse because the Reapers at least preserve, the quarian act was just a hateful display of destruction acted out upon a peoples who had no desire or capability to fight.

So... you tell me. If you were in the position of the geth and you had had to deal with so much hate, so much anger, so much bitterness, and so much racism from the quarians, would you have jumped to their defence? Or, if someone came to you and said that they'd cure the organics of their hatred, would you have allowed those "healers" to do their work? You have to understand the synthetic perspective. But I understand that there's an almost sociopathic need to be racist against the geth in the minority, here.

As I proved with the infographic, though, you are a minority. An angry, bitter, hateful minority.

You're no different than Han'Gerrel, essentially. Which is why I've little to no respect for your side of the argument. The orthodox geth were peaceful and passive to the last, magnanimous after many quarian attempts to kill or control them. If only the same could be said about others.

[justafan]

remydat wrote...

And no I don't have to take into account civilians when by the definitions of war they are not civilains.  Once you pick up a gun and fire it at an enemy, you lose the rights and protections you are deemed ot have as a civilians.  THose civilains were conscripted soliders.

I don't necessarily agree with that assessment either.  The Quarians did not all pick up a gun, their homes were outfitted for defense.  We think of it in terms of modern warfare, but fiction is different.  You seem to view it like the battle of Berlin, where every man old and young was given a gun to fight the soviets, thus making them conscripts.  I would argue from the Quarian perspective, putting ships on the fleet is not like arming every citizen, for the Quarians and their unique situation, it is like putting anti-aircraft guns in their cities as England did during the battle of Britain.  They believe that the cities will be targetted anyways, so arming them is only logical.  It does not make every inhabitant any less a civilian (Which is not to say they are not targetted anyways).

[TheWerdna]

Auld Wulf wrote...

So, here's an interesting thing...

An official infographic tells us that the majority either chose peace or sided with the geth. That's a sobering realisation.

It's also a worthy addition to this thread.

And yet the numbers are very close over all, with the geth and quarians both surviving (not includeing the endings choice) in over 50% of files, with sill over 1/4 of players siding with the quarians. Yes, more dod side with the geth, but its still moderatly close, with only a 10% difference.

Modifié par TheWerdna, 23 mars 2013 - 11:35 .

[Spartas Husky]

justafan wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

justafan wrote...



So, the same collective that was content to let you be harvested by Reapers in ME1 is worthy of your trust?  Good to know.

Is a little ackward you dont make the effort to make a distiction between the heretics and the true geth so yeah.
Following your own logic all humans are cerberus and all cerberus are human.

Sounds alright I guess.

I did distinguish.  The Heretics participated in the harvest.  I was referring to the orthodox Geth who simply knew what was coming and were content to do nothing.

I agree they should have sounded the alarm. But let us dissect that for a sec

They would invade systems alliance space in a massive armada leaving themselves open to the quarians in an effort to stop thei brothers?

Or call the council and tell them they saw an ancient god like machine and spoke to it in ways we cannot comprehend.

I do agree they should have tried to raise the alarm, as the thought of action is as important as taking action itself. But what would have that accomplished if not their destruction by the quarians. They didn't have any reason to believe the reapers were going to make us into liquid paste. They got offered a body nothing more. Nobody knew what the reapers were going to do until Shepard Spoke to Vigil.

So beofre then the geth minded their own business. Not charitable but reasonable.

[Iamjdr]

Yeah except the thing about Being a conscripted soldier is being handed a weapon doesn't teach you how to fight and survive a battle. All Geth can fight. There's no cripple, baby or elderly Geth to slow them down and every Geth shares there experiences so they all know what a battle is like

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Yeah except the thing about Being a conscripted soldier is being handed a weapon doesn't teach you how to fight and survive a battle. All Geth can fight. There's no cripple, baby or elderly Geth to slow them down and every Geth shares there experiences so they all know what a battle is like

So maybe the Quarians should not be using civilians in the fight.  You say this like the Geth are at fault for Quarian stupidity.  

What exactly do you want the Geth to do.  Liveships are shooting at them, they get shoot down.  That would happen whether the enemy was synthetic or organic.

Modifié par remydat, 23 mars 2013 - 11:42 .

[Spartas Husky]

Iamjdr wrote...

Yeah except the thing about Being a conscripted soldier is being handed a weapon doesn't teach you how to fight and survive a battle. All Geth can fight. There's no cripple, baby or elderly Geth to slow them down and every Geth shares there experiences so they all know what a battle is like

And this falls again into not paying attention to story. The Geth disengaged quarians ships once they stopped firing... if a ship isn't a threat they dont waste resources attacking them. Live Ships were a threat because they had the firepower of a dreadnaught.

This goes into some mentality of blaming the weapon and not the one wielding it.

[justafan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

justafan wrote...

I did distinguish.  The Heretics participated in the harvest.  I was referring to the orthodox Geth who simply knew what was coming and were content to do nothing.

Yes, but you're not being intellectually honest.

The geth have been hunted by organics since the birth of their existence, all they've known is that if organics ever side with them, then those organics die too. See: The Morning War information revealed in the consensus mission. Ultimately, the quarian military were more than willing to kill however many of their own as was necessary in order to get at the geth. Which might have been millions for all we know.

So, the old machines talk to the geth and tell them that this is standard practise. That they will deal with the organics via harvesting so that they no longer have to fear for their existence. And that organics will finally lose their endless hatred for all things different and strange when they become Reaper entities. The orthodox geth shrug, it doesn't seem like a bad thing since those organics just seem to be sacks of water and hate (from their perspective), but at the same time they don't want to dole out any harm to them.

This causes a divide which creates the heretic geth, as they believe that organics deserve to pay for what's been done to them. This divide may or may not exist because of Reaper tampering. The orthodox geth tell the heretical geth that tehy don't understand their desires, and that they find them illogical, but after all the war and death they're tired of fighting. They continue to not fight up until the time period of Mass Effect 3. All the while, the heretical geth keep telling the orthodox geth that only the old machines will be their salvation.

The orthodox geth continue to not believe this. In fact, they magnanimously choose to give Rannoch back to the quarians. They build a megastructure in space so that they can leave Rannoch so that it can be reoccupied by the quarians. Their megastructure has no weapons or defences (as revealed by Legion), and it's not meant to be an artifact of war. A simple scan of the structure would have revealed their intent. However, Han'Gerrel chose to carpet bomb the megastructure.

Huge numbers of orthodox geth programs were lost when this happened, as revealed by Legion, and the ones that survived feared for their very existence. They began to accept that maybe the heretical geth were correct, that perhaps organics are nothing more than nasty sacks of water and hate, and that organics would always do everything within their power to destroy them. Han'Gerrel did as much as he was able to to drive this point home, to make this view of organics the only one the geth had.

As such, the orthodox geth gave up. After hundreds of years of being magnanimous, non-combative, and completely peaceful, they sided with the heretics and accepted the help of the old machines. All they wanted to do was survive, to see another day. Essentially, the quarians did to the geth what the Reapers did to earth. In fact, the quarian act was worse because the Reapers at least preserve, the quarian act was just a hateful display of destruction acted out upon a peoples who had no desire or capability to fight.

So... you tell me. If you were in the position of the geth and you had had to deal with so much hate, so much anger, so much bitterness, and so much racism from the quarians, would you have jumped to their defence? Or, if someone came to you and said that they'd cure the organics of their hatred, would you have allowed those "healers" to do their work? You have to understand the synthetic perspective. But I understand that there's an almost sociopathic need to be racist against the geth in the minority, here.

As I proved with the infographic, though, you are a minority. An angry, bitter, hateful minority.

You're no different than Han'Gerrel, essentially. Which is why I've little to no respect for your side of the argument. The orthodox geth were peaceful and passive to the last, magnanimous after many quarian attempts to kill or control them. If only the same could be said about others.

What is intellectually dishonest about saying the Geth didn't care what happened to organics.  I never even faulted them for it, I was merely pointing out the silliness of saying they are trustworthy when they were indifferent to your extinction.

As for your post.  Bolded is headcanon you state as fact

Bold and italicized are statement that are not only headcanon, but lies.  Disproven within the game through dialogue.  You sir, are the intellectually dishonest one.

"The Orthodox Geth tell the heretical Geth they do not understand their desires and find it illogical"  Legion tells you flat out that the Orthodox Geth fully understood the Heretic's reasoning for joining the reapers.  They disagreed, but did not call it illogical, they knew exactly what the heretics intended and their reasoning.

"people who had no desire or capability to fight".  I would argue that the fleet with the second largest number of dreadnoughts in the galaxy counts as "capability to fight".

"Various accusations of the Geth being magnanimous, non-combative, peaceful, etc." Geth have killed plenty of diplomats, and there was never any indication they desired to give Rannoch back.  They mainain it out of what we might describe as respect, but there is never any suggestion that they do it so they can give it back.  For 300 years they kill anyone who comes near the system.  Only 300 years later, does Legion give any indication they are not fully opposed, to the Quarians coming back under certain circumstances.  He never says they desire it.

"you are a minority. An angry, bitter, hateful minority."  And you are a disillusioned meanie 

[Iamjdr]

My question is how are the quarians stupid if they were winning? The only reason the Geth Wern't screwed as soon as the quarians attacked is because they already had a reaper chilling on Rannoch. Were they supposed to know that the reaper was already there hiding in the Geth base ready to brodcast it's signal. Like I said before, the Geth are known by the galaxy as reaper allies so to strike them at the start of a reaper war is not dumb. They just got there to late.

Modifié par Iamjdr, 23 mars 2013 - 11:57 .

[Iamjdr]

Why was there a reaper chilling on rannoch before the quarians attacked anyways?

[Ryzaki]

Auld Wulf wrote...

So, here's an interesting thing...

An official infographic tells us that the majority either chose peace or sided with the geth. That's a sobering realisation.

It's also a worthy addition to this thread.

Oooh interesting

Aww at Kaidan's survival rate.

[Only-Twin]

Remy, you really do not get it. We are not talking about ships of three or four people strapping guns to their hull. We are talking about ships holding thousands of innocent civilians. They did not make the choice themselves. Their captains and admirals made the choice for them. How can you consider thousands of innocent people who had no say in anything to be enemy combatants?

[justafan]

Ryzaki wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

So, here's an interesting thing...

An official infographic tells us that the majority either chose peace or sided with the geth. That's a sobering realisation.

It's also a worthy addition to this thread.

Oooh interesting

Aww at Kaidan's survival rate.

What I don't get is how Liara only has a 53% survival rate.  Do 47% of players really take her on the final mission with that low EMS?

And in regards to the topic of this thread.  90% of people who could possibly make peace (ie, played ME2 as evidence by"long service medal"), did, while only 10% chose either Geth or Quarians.  And even then that number might be larger, as ME3 only player may play twice.  That means those who chose either Geth or Quarians, were almost unanimously new players.

[Only-Twin]

Also I'm sure there is some bias in that infographic. It doesn't account for how many people never even had the choice to make peace. And I bet a lot of new players were unfairly drawn to the geth for how ME3 paints them as saints.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

My question is how are the quarians stupid if they were winning? The only reason the Geth Wern't screwed as soon as the quarians attacked is because they already had a reaper chilling on Rannoch. Were they supposed to know that the reaper was already there hiding in the Geth base ready to brodcast it's signal. Like I said before, the Geth are known by the galaxy as reaper allies so to strike them at the start of a reaper war is not dumb. They just got there to late.

Because no one called them stupid for winning. I called them stupid for using civilians in war.  You can't do that and they cry but they were civilians when they get killed was my point.  No they were not.  They minute they join the war, they should be killed like anyone else if they shoot at you.

Iamjdr wrote...

Why was there a reaper chilling on rannoch before the quarians attacked anyways?

Well if you were a highly evolved machine that harvested the galaxy because organics pick fights with machines, where would you lay in wait?  Oh that's right, the place where it is likely the stupid organics are going to pick a fight.  So what, we should be mad because the Reapers understood how predictably stupid the Quarians are?

Modifié par remydat, 24 mars 2013 - 12:21 .

[Iamjdr]

Sooo your saying even if they just grab a gun to save themselves they deserve to die like any other soldier. How about those civilians who crashed on rannoch when you go to save koris?

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Are we playing the "at least" game?

At least the geth never strapped guns to the ships of non-combatants and threw them out there to die.

When will people accept that there has been wrong done on BOTH sides?

Speak for yourself. If there is ANYONE that refuses to see any faults on the part of the geth, it's you.

[Iamjdr]

So the reapers predicted the quarians would attacked when they arrived, that doesn't explain why there was a reaper hidden inside a Geth base before quarians showed up if the Geth were supposedly preparing for war against the reapers. wouldn't it be good to start to take out the one chilling in your home base?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I don't think YOU understand, which is expected.
If one side DOESN'T want to fight, and the other SIGNED AN AGREEMENT not to fight, THAT'S a peace agreement. Nither side will fight the other. The quarians explisitly signed a non-agression treaty. And the geth had no intentions of perpetuating a conflict at all. So by extension, that IS a peace agreement if nither side is willing or able to take part in hostilities.
And WRONG. From the geth perspective, all organics are an annoyance. A factor not worth devoting processing power to. If they DID consider all organics enemies, then they would have come out of the Veil and attacked the fleet the Council had on their borders. Or ALL the geth would have joined Sovergein, not just 7% of them. They stopped caring either way. They let go of all concerns, AND all grudges.
The Heretics didn't martch to war because they disliked organics. That's a mistake to believe. They ONLY followed Sovergien for the oppertunity to self-improve. The entire POINT was the Heretics - they DIDN'T care about organics, and put themselves ahead of all life in general, including other geth, as evidenced by their split from the True Geth.

Therefore, the Heretics started an entirely different conflict, as none of the past grudges existed on the organic side, and the geth themselves don't hold grudges to begin with.
So, regardless of what you say, your belief that the Heretics were continuing the Morning War is patently false, as nither side had grudges against each-other, or each-other's forms of life. The Heretics perpetuated a new conflict.
Nothing you say out of headcannon will change that.

A peace agreement between yourself ie the Council and the people it governs is not a peace agreemnt when the other party has not agreed to it.  Really nothing more to say.

The Quarians agreed to it. And the geth practally dictated that they didn't have any desire to be involved in more fighting.
THAT'S all there is to it. If one side agrees not to shoot, and the other side HAS no intent to shoot, THAT'S a mutually agreed upon peace.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Sooo your saying even if they just grab a gun to save themselves they deserve to die like any other soldier. How about those civilians who crashed on rannoch when you go to save koris?

No I am not saying that at all.  Should a Geth on Rannoch see a Quarian holding a gun and firing at them as anything but an enemy that needs to be killed.  No.  It is an unfortunate situation brought about by the Quarian leadership.

Iamjdr wrote...

So the reapers predicted the quarians would attacked when they arrived, that doesn't explain why there was a reaper hidden inside a Geth base before quarians showed up if the Geth were supposedly preparing for war against the reapers. wouldn't it be good to start to take out the one chilling in your home base?

Is it that hard to predict because I thought Quarian supporters were saying they had no choice but to attack so how hard is it for the Reapers to surmise that is what these guys will think?  

And who they were even aware it was there?  Point is unless you are going to provide evidence this is just another attempt to headcannon justify Quarian aggression.

Modifié par remydat, 24 mars 2013 - 12:43 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

The Quarians agreed to it. And the geth practally dictated that they didn't have any desire to be involved in more fighting.
THAT'S all there is to it. If one side agrees not to shoot, and the other side HAS no intent to shoot, THAT'S a mutually agreed upon peace.

Let me ask a simple question.  Do you believe that the Geth shot down all those alleged diplomatic vessels that entered the veil?

If the answer is yes then there was no peace.  Both sides merely were content to remain behind their borders.

Modifié par remydat, 24 mars 2013 - 12:50 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But look how the Alliance was blamed for not handling Cerberus. And the Alliance DID work to take care of it's rouge factions. No one is holding the geth respincible for the creation of the Heretics. They are holding the geth responcible for not DOING ANYTHING about the Heretcis.
The salarians did something about their rouge "Leauge of One" faction
The Alliance took responcibility for bringing down Cerberus.
Why exactally do the geth get a free pass on taking responcibility for the Heretics?

Cerberus attackes Alliance and allies of the Alliance.  That is why the Alliance tries to stop it.  If Cerberus sole mission was to attack the Geth, I don't think any body would care non-agression pack or not just like no one moved to stop the Quarians from attacking the Geth.

So you are not comparing the same thing.  It is completely logical to try and stop people from hurting you or your allies.  It is completely illogical to concern yourself with Rogue humans attacking your enemies.

WRONG.  The Alliance WASN'T in conflict with Cerberus till after ME1. (A single Admiral was independantly assaulting Cerberus. Shepard then independantly stoped their other experiments. No actual Alliance involvement) Cerberus wasn't even confirmed to exist till ME1, after whoch the Alliance disavowed any and all actions taken by them. The reason the Alliance got up and did something  was because Cerberus attacked the quarian Migrant Fleet (Mass Effect: Ascension novel). That got everyone aware of Cerberus's activities and that they were a threat, after which, even though the quarians were not the Alliance's concern, they had Kahlee Sanders and David Anderson go after them. The Alliance acted because Cerberus' activities were harming non-humans.
So, to recap, Cerberus attacks the Migrant Fleet. The Alliance actively begins persuing Cerberus.
The Heretics attacked everyone. The geth do NOTHING.
THAT'S the same circumstance, but different actions. So in truth, you were AGAIN wrong.
If the Alliance takes responcibility for Cerberus when they haven't been directly harmed by their actioins, or for attacking a nation that isn't aligened with you in any way, then the geth should do the same for the Heretics.

So YES, I AM comparing the same thing.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The Quarians agreed to it. And the geth practally dictated that they didn't have any desire to be involved in more fighting.
THAT'S all there is to it. If one side agrees not to shoot, and the other side HAS no intent to shoot, THAT'S a mutually agreed upon peace.

Let me ask a simple question.  Do you believe that the Geth shot down all those alleged diplomatic vessels that entered the veil?

If the answer is yes then there was no peace.  Both sides merely were content to remain behind their borders.

COUNTER: did the geth ever come out and attack anyone? Or hunt down the quarians and finish them?

If the answer is yes, then the geth had no intent to actively disturb anyone. THAT is a mutual peace agreement. As long as both sides conform to not antagonize each other, that's an agreement to peace.