4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Raiil]

The quarians still have a senate though. When it comes to war, the only way it would have been accepted is if a majority of the Conclave agreed with the war plan. The only other way would be if the Admirals used executive power to force them to war, but that's impossible for two reasons. First and foremost is that the decision must be a unimous one. All five Admirals must agree to the action of going to war for the Admirals to force the fleet to comply, and we know for a fact that Tali and Koris were in complete disfavor of it. The other reason is that if executive power is used, all the Admirals must unimously resign their posts and step down to allow a new board to be formed.

And Legion repeatedly states that the geth body is insigifigant. The software is the actual geth, and all geth are able to switch to combat roles.

It's still martial law. It's not totally analogous to the geth, but it's also not analogous to someone where conscription is not legal or hasn't been used in decades. They exist in a society very different from most on Earth.

And while the platform might be insignificant for now, if you destroyed 90% of their fighting platforms, they're still in a pickle because they can't just magic up new shells to fight in. You could have every single geth packed into a pokeball; if that pokeball can't fight at all, that's just a lot of brains in a helpless form.

There are no innocents in the Geth/Quarian war in terms of who has committed the worst atrocities. Ultimately who is 'right' is up to personal interpretation, or barring that, who has the most right to live.

[justafan]

silverexile17s wrote...

So then, how much of that percentage was new players?

Peace/LongServiceMedal= 90%

only 10% of returning players chose one side over the other.  That means about 62% or so are new players.

However that does not take into account new players who played the game twice.

Modifié par justafan, 24 mars 2013 - 01:27 .

[Raiil]

So then, how much of that percentage was new players?

I have no way to tell. The only even vaguely rational explanation I've come up with is that BioWare assumed that those of us who played the previous games have enough previous knowledge to come to our own conclusions. New players, however, have to learn everything on the fly. Quarians come wth instinctual brotherhood because 'killer machines' are a popular trope, the geth look and sound inhuman, and are introduced as these terminator things comes to kill fellow organics. In order to temper that, the geth pov must be introduced. How precisely would you show the geth in a sympathetic light differently?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
NO, it isn't. FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME.  HERE was the straight-up.
Attack Reapers + no known Reaper vuneribilities + excell at destroying ships +fleet that can't be split up + civilians are big targets as is + uses month's worth of supplies daily = instant GAME OVER for quarians.

Attack geth + geth listed Reaper allies + world with everything they need + civilans can live seperate so fleet can effectively fight + viral flash bang that is confirmed "instant-win button" = quarians with secure future, able to support war against the Reapers.

This shouldn't be that hard to get. The civilans would be fighting either way, if not against the geth, then the Reapers. And against the Reapers, there would be NO chance of survival. They would die in minutes.

And the geth HAVE no civilians. Every program is able to switch between platforms instantly, and every platform is ready-made for combat. There ARE no civilians among the geth.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.  If you fire at me and try to kill me you die.  End of story.  There is nothing more for me to consider in the heat of battle.  Any soldier who sits there trying to figurre out whether the enemy secretly loves football and apple pie why that enemy is trying to kill them will likely not survive the war.

And that's why you would ALWAYS LOSE.
If it's that simple to you, then you have no clue how war works. You need to CARE about why this guy is attacking you if you want to either beat him or reason with him.
Say you have resources he need desperately (say, the only known place in existance that his people can survive in), and thus far, you have shown little concern in the affairs of others, or negligence to manage your rouge factions at their expence and refusal to do anything about it. Ypu kill anyone that enters your borders, giving everyone the impression that you have no interest in diplomicy. You have something they need desperately, and you have done nothing to paint a picture of yourself being negotiable, or caring about others.

Look long and hard at this, and you eventually realize "Oh God. I partly brought this on myself with lack of action and concern for the outside world. I should have been more proactive in making an image that I didn't support the rouges, or that I was reasonable and open to peace. I could have stopped this if I had done something sooner."

THAT'S  the situation. And if you really refuse to care about the other man's reasons for fighting you, then you would always lose in the end, because everyone will come to consider you an enemy.

[Phatose]

Hm. I'm unconvinced there are no Geth civilians.

The primary argument that there are not Geth civilians is that they are effective in combat. Yet, the civilian/military distinction does not actually consider actual effectiveness at all. If a Geth's primary role is one of combat or defense, it's military. If it's not, then it's civilian. The fact that a particular Geth is skilled in combat is neither here nor there, and no more makes it military then a retired cop becomes military because he's good at fighting.

[silverexile17s]

Valentia X wrote...

The quarians still have a senate though. When it comes to war, the only way it would have been accepted is if a majority of the Conclave agreed with the war plan. The only other way would be if the Admirals used executive power to force them to war, but that's impossible for two reasons. First and foremost is that the decision must be a unimous one. All five Admirals must agree to the action of going to war for the Admirals to force the fleet to comply, and we know for a fact that Tali and Koris were in complete disfavor of it. The other reason is that if executive power is used, all the Admirals must unimously resign their posts and step down to allow a new board to be formed.

And Legion repeatedly states that the geth body is insigifigant. The software is the actual geth, and all geth are able to switch to combat roles.

It's still martial law. It's not totally analogous to the geth, but it's also not analogous to someone where conscription is not legal or hasn't been used in decades. They exist in a society very different from most on Earth.

And while the platform might be insignificant for now, if you destroyed 90% of their fighting platforms, they're still in a pickle because they can't just magic up new shells to fight in. You could have every single geth packed into a pokeball; if that pokeball can't fight at all, that's just a lot of brains in a helpless form.

There are no innocents in the Geth/Quarian war in terms of who has committed the worst atrocities. Ultimately who is 'right' is up to personal interpretation, or barring that, who has the most right to live.

Ironic you make that pokeball qoute. Remember that geth megastructure?
Dyson bubble - a sphere around Rannoch's star. Not defensless, but still a big target.

And it isn't really martial law anymore. That became more lax after it set in for the quarians that "....yeah. this is life now." It's like a board of leaders, and they need the supprot of the senate.

Also, since the geth were able to produce enough platforms to reproatedly overwhelm the quarian defenders with sheer numbers, I somehow think that doing such damage is easier said then done.

Also, that's not true, as there were at least 2.1 billion quarians. I doubt all could possibly be millitary. And there were alien civilians in quarian space too that the geth didn't spare, like Erynia's asari bondmate, who died when the geth took Rannoch. And Adas, a mining world, had it's population of civilian miners slaughtered on the path to Rannoch, even though they had no military affliliation what-so-ever.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

@remydat
I'll bite. The reaper on rannoch was a single reaper destroy sitting inside the Geth base(Proven in game occluded when we see him rise from the ground after being attacked by the normandy). Now when you arrive to speak to the quarians and they explain the situation to you. they mention nothin about reapers arriving after the initial attack only that the signal began to broadcast once they pushe the Geth back. Seeing as it was only 1 reaper destroyer on rannoch, who the quarains themselves kill later to break the reaper signal, wouldn't it be a little odd for them to just let a reaper pass them and to land on rannoch when they think the reapers and the Geth work together?

You still haven't told me what you want me to conclude from this.  Are you insinuating that the Reaper and the Geth were colluding before the attack?  If so I find that doubtful as the game goes to great lengths to point out when Legion has lied to Shepard and to show Legion being embarrassed.  Further we have to decide who to wipe out and you want me to believe that the writers would leave out something this important that only on a message board several years later and on page 80 or so of that message board the truth was revealed?

In any event, tell me what I should believe.  I am only speculating here.

[silverexile17s]

Phatose wrote...

Hm. I'm unconvinced there are no Geth civilians.

The primary argument that there are not Geth civilians is that they are effective in combat. Yet, the civilian/military distinction does not actually consider actual effectiveness at all. If a Geth's primary role is one of combat or defense, it's military. If it's not, then it's civilian. The fact that a particular Geth is skilled in combat is neither here nor there, and no more makes it military then a retired cop becomes military because he's good at fighting.

But the problem is that it's spicifically stated that all geth are combat capable, and all are able to seemlessly assume the role of combatants. The "Geth Corps" War Asset states this as well, as there is no single geth unit that isn't combat capable, as do Codex entires made of them.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 24 mars 2013 - 01:37 .

[justafan]

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Hm. I'm unconvinced there are no Geth civilians.

The primary argument that there are not Geth civilians is that they are effective in combat. Yet, the civilian/military distinction does not actually consider actual effectiveness at all. If a Geth's primary role is one of combat or defense, it's military. If it's not, then it's civilian. The fact that a particular Geth is skilled in combat is neither here nor there, and no more makes it military then a retired cop becomes military because he's good at fighting.

But the problem is that it's spicifically stated that all geth are combat capable, and all are able to seemlessly assume the role of combatants. The "Geth Corps" War Asset states this as well, as there is no single geth unit that isn't combat capable, as do Codex entires made of them.

Also, the Geth are a hivemind.  Any time a Geth takes any action, when it uploads into the consensus, any Geth that uploads into the consensus afterwards becomes that Geth.

[Iamjdr]

I don't know what you should believe. What im saying is based on the ingame evidence we are shown, the reaper that is hiding on rannoch was there before the quarians attacked. Unless the Geth have the reapers on speed dial just incase they need help anytime and reapers can FTL into underground Lairs past the attacking quarian fleets without being detected.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

And that's why you would ALWAYS LOSE.
If it's that simple to you, then you have no clue how war works. You need to CARE about why this guy is attacking you if you want to either beat him or reason with him.
Say you have resources he need desperately (say, the only known place in existance that his people can survive in), and thus far, you have shown little concern in the affairs of others, or negligence to manage your rouge factions at their expence and refusal to do anything about it. Ypu kill anyone that enters your borders, giving everyone the impression that you have no interest in diplomicy. You have something they need desperately, and you have done nothing to paint a picture of yourself being negotiable, or caring about others.

Look long and hard at this, and you eventually realize "Oh God. I partly brought this on myself with lack of action and concern for the outside world. I should have been more proactive in making an image that I didn't support the rouges, or that I was reasonable and open to peace. I could have stopped this if I had done something sooner."

THAT'S  the situation. And if you really refuse to care about the other man's reasons for fighting you, then you would always lose in the end, because everyone will come to consider you an enemy.

Dude this is the biggest load of bullsh*t I have ever heard.  My comment specifically said in the heat of battle.  No soldier thinks about that sh*t when he is being shot at and his life is in danger.   You can pontificate from the safety of your couch this crap but if someone came to your house right now and started firing because he needed a loaf of bread for his dying sister, you are going to kill his a** if you can because you don't have time to worry about his problems when you are about to be killed,

I mean really dude?

[Raiil]

silverexile17s wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

The quarians still have a senate though. When it comes to war, the only way it would have been accepted is if a majority of the Conclave agreed with the war plan. The only other way would be if the Admirals used executive power to force them to war, but that's impossible for two reasons. First and foremost is that the decision must be a unimous one. All five Admirals must agree to the action of going to war for the Admirals to force the fleet to comply, and we know for a fact that Tali and Koris were in complete disfavor of it. The other reason is that if executive power is used, all the Admirals must unimously resign their posts and step down to allow a new board to be formed.

And Legion repeatedly states that the geth body is insigifigant. The software is the actual geth, and all geth are able to switch to combat roles.

It's still martial law. It's not totally analogous to the geth, but it's also not analogous to someone where conscription is not legal or hasn't been used in decades. They exist in a society very different from most on Earth.

And while the platform might be insignificant for now, if you destroyed 90% of their fighting platforms, they're still in a pickle because they can't just magic up new shells to fight in. You could have every single geth packed into a pokeball; if that pokeball can't fight at all, that's just a lot of brains in a helpless form.

There are no innocents in the Geth/Quarian war in terms of who has committed the worst atrocities. Ultimately who is 'right' is up to personal interpretation, or barring that, who has the most right to live.

Ironic you make that pokeball qoute. Remember that geth megastructure?
Dyson bubble - a sphere around Rannoch's star. Not defensless, but still a big target.

And it isn't really martial law anymore. That became more lax after it set in for the quarians that "....yeah. this is life now." It's like a board of leaders, and they need the supprot of the senate.

Also, since the geth were able to produce enough platforms to reproatedly overwhelm the quarian defenders with sheer numbers, I somehow think that doing such damage is easier said then done.

Also, that's not true, as there were at least 2.1 billion quarians. I doubt all could possibly be millitary. And there were alien civilians in quarian space too that the geth didn't spare, like Erynia's asari bondmate, who died when the geth took Rannoch. And Adas, a mining world, had it's population of civilian miners slaughtered on the path to Rannoch, even though they had no military affliliation what-so-ever.

It's still martial law. Reproductive rights are severely limited, immigration appears to be extremely controlled, etc. The quarians, by necessity, live a very restricted life. I'm not saying it's bad, but pointing out that their lives are also high reigmented. It's not North Korea, but it's not exactly New York, either.

And no, the original geth didn't spare any quarians they viewed as threats. And yet, at the same time, some geth were willing to surrender themselves for the quarians who sided with them. It seems that, much like the quarians in the Morning War, some went for total annihlation, and some were inclined more towards mercy. The geth show in part two that they don't always achieve consensus on everything. Why would the war be any different?

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

I don't know what you should believe. What im saying is based on the ingame evidence we are shown, the reaper that is hiding on rannoch was there before the quarians attacked. Unless the Geth have the reapers on speed dial just incase they need help anytime and reapers can FTL into underground Lairs past the attacking quarian fleets without being detected.

Or I can just believe there is no in game reason because writers make mistakes.  Shepard can't possibly have survived reentering an atmospher and slamming into water without burning up like a most meteorites or basically detonating upon impact like most objects that are fast enough to re-enter an atmosphere (earth requires something like 17,000 miles a second) but sure enough his body was recovered, lol.

Point is not everything is meant to be dissected.  Like I said, pretty sure the writers would have in some way pointed this out before we decided to wipe out someone if the intent was to say Legion lied about this just like they pointed it out in the other instances.  

Further, how do we know where they come from?  If the battle with the Quarians started say on the Western outskirts of the Veil the Geth would be devoting forces to the West and would have no reason to defend Rannoch until such time that they were pushed back only to then discover Mr Reaper had set up shop.  There are any number of head cannon one could come up with to support any viewpoint but why bother when I am pretty sure that is not the writers intent.

[Phatose]

silverexile17s wrote...

But the problem is that it's spicifically stated that all geth are combat capable, and all are able to seemlessly assume the role of combatants. The "Geth Corps" War Asset states this as well, as there is no single geth unit that isn't combat capable, as do Codex entires made of them.

And if you had actually read my post, you'd have realized my point was that capability is not relevant.

An 8-year old is physically capable of picking up a gun and shooting it.  By the logic being used here, that therefore makes him non-civilian.  Even if he's unarmed and cowering.

[Phatose]

justafan wrote...
Also, the Geth are a hivemind.  Any time a Geth takes any action, when it uploads into the consensus, any Geth that uploads into the consensus afterwards becomes that Geth.

No, they are not a hivemind.  See:  Legion on the Collector Base. Also:  Definition of Consensus.

[Iamjdr]

The problem with that is the quarians and the Geth both acknowledge that the Geth became less intelligent when they were attacked. And it was also a surprise attack of sorts with a new weapon that the Geth had never encountered before, which happened to be very effective against them. so how were the Geth able to find time to contact the reapers and fight off the quarians attacks all while being signifficantly less intelligent. then the reapers send 1 destroyer class reaper? If the quarians saw it coming they would have blasted it out of the sky worse then what they did to it in the planets surface. And it's not like the reaper snuck in without the Geth noticing seeing as we had to shut those AA turrets down just so Cortez could fly around without being shot down.

[Iamjdr]

Btw don't you think if legion lied to you once it's possible it has happened before? Also How many of your other crew mates have lied to you throughout the trilogy?

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

The problem with that is the quarians and the Geth both acknowledge that the Geth became less intelligent when they were attacked. And it was also a surprise attack of sorts with a new weapon that the Geth had never encountered before, which happened to be very effective against them. so how were the Geth able to find time to contact the reapers and fight off the quarians attacks all while being signifficantly less intelligent. then the reapers send 1 destroyer class reaper? If the quarians saw it coming they would have blasted it out of the sky worse then what they did to it in the planets surface. And it's not like the reaper snuck in without the Geth noticing seeing as we had to shut those AA turrets down just so Cortez could fly around without being shot down.

You do realize that a machine can do more than one thing.  Do you really think that as platforms are fighting others can't be doing something else as if the Geth suddenly turn into Rainman.

And that line I thought was to support the idea that the Quarians killed a **** load of sensible Geth who were housed in the mega structure and in so doing made it easier for Legion and company to be outvoted when it came to allying with th Reaper.

This is like asking me if the Geth and Quarians were engaged in a battle on Jupiter, how is it possible for a Reaper to slip by them and get to Earth.  Well, it is a big f**kng solar system and with all the fighting focused on Jupiter pretty easy for someone to approach from a different location.  I don't know how the battle played out but I imagine you can't teleport to Rannoch so the battle started elsewhere and a single reaper ship in a vast solar system could have approached from a different entry point than the battle.  There is realistically no way for the flotilla to be able to guard all entry points to a vast system.

So again this is just all head cannon.  What's the point? 

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Btw don't you think if legion lied to you once it's possible it has happened before? Also How many of your other crew mates have lied to you throughout the trilogy?

I think if their entire species depended on it, everyone one of my crew members would like to me.  Various leaders lie throughout the game to cover their a**es.  Legion is effectively a leader of his people.  So he lied to protect his people and in doing so actually helped out the cause.

You also neglect to mention ever time he lied the writers made a point to call it out and he was embarrassed.  So if he was lying about the reaper, pretty sure the writers would tell us.  Again, explain to me why they would leave out this fact only for it to be discovered by some random dude on a message board.

This makes no sense, you and I both know realistically the writers are not trying to make this some big lie that NO ONE in the game ever finds out about.  That is absurd.

[Iamjdr]

Really cause wrex doesn't lie to me and he IS the krogan leader and his peoples lives are in my hands, neither does tali and so are hers. Plus some leader legion is seeing as when I found him he was the only Geth around and he was strapped up to reaper tech. So either they forced him in there or he hooked himself in willingly neither of which sounds very good to me. An who is to say I'm the only one to notice?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And that's why you would ALWAYS LOSE.
If it's that simple to you, then you have no clue how war works. You need to CARE about why this guy is attacking you if you want to either beat him or reason with him.
Say you have resources he need desperately (say, the only known place in existance that his people can survive in), and thus far, you have shown little concern in the affairs of others, or negligence to manage your rouge factions at their expence and refusal to do anything about it. Ypu kill anyone that enters your borders, giving everyone the impression that you have no interest in diplomicy. You have something they need desperately, and you have done nothing to paint a picture of yourself being negotiable, or caring about others.

Look long and hard at this, and you eventually realize "Oh God. I partly brought this on myself with lack of action and concern for the outside world. I should have been more proactive in making an image that I didn't support the rouges, or that I was reasonable and open to peace. I could have stopped this if I had done something sooner."

THAT'S  the situation. And if you really refuse to care about the other man's reasons for fighting you, then you would always lose in the end, because everyone will come to consider you an enemy.

Dude this is the biggest load of bullsh*t I have ever heard.  My comment specifically said in the heat of battle.  No soldier thinks about that sh*t when he is being shot at and his life is in danger.   You can pontificate from the safety of your couch this crap but if someone came to your house right now and started firing because he needed a loaf of bread for his dying sister, you are going to kill his a** if you can because you don't have time to worry about his problems when you are about to be killed,

I mean really dude?

WRONG. Gerrel did, when he considered weighing 17 million lives against Shepard's life.
And I wasn't taking about first-person. I was talking about being the leader of a faction.

Besides, he wouldn't go to a house for bread for a dying sister. He'd go looking for medicine or treatment.

And AGAIN, back to the point - your example is COMPLETELY IRRELIVENT, as that's a random encounter, vs a situation that YOU put yourself in. That example has JACK - SQUAT to do with my arguement, because unlike that totally random situation, the geth's is one that was completely avoidable, had they not been so isolated, and taken the risk of reaching out to the galaxy at large. It WASN'T anything like a robbery where self-defense is understandable. It's having a bad rep, not doing anything to fix said bad rep, and then being surprised when people attack you because they think you are the bad guy BECAUSE of the bad rep you didn't even try to fix. If the geth had been actively trying to fix what the galaxy thought of them, and taken responcibility for the Heretics, THEN your example would match. But as is, It DOESN'T.

So NO, it's not BS. You simply missed the point.... AGAIN.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 24 mars 2013 - 03:17 .

[silverexile17s]

Iamjdr wrote...

Really cause wrex doesn't lie to me and he IS the krogan leader and his peoples lives are in my hands, neither does tali and so are hers. Plus some leader legion is seeing as when I found him he was the only Geth around and he was strapped up to reaper tech. So either they forced him in there or he hooked himself in willingly neither of which sounds very good to me. An who is to say I'm the only one to notice?

No. And it's not lost on Legion either, who often gives clear indication that not only was it forced into being imprisioned in the dreadnought, but that Legion is ashamed by the geth's actions, and that he would rather the geth have died instead of serve the Reapers.

[silverexile17s]

Phatose wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But the problem is that it's spicifically stated that all geth are combat capable, and all are able to seemlessly assume the role of combatants. The "Geth Corps" War Asset states this as well, as there is no single geth unit that isn't combat capable, as do Codex entires made of them.

And if you had actually read my post, you'd have realized my point was that capability is not relevant.

An 8-year old is physically capable of picking up a gun and shooting it.  By the logic being used here, that therefore makes him non-civilian.  Even if he's unarmed and cowering.

Again. Every single geth is able to fight. Every program is actively able to take control of combat platforms and seemlessly be able to fight. Therefore, WHAT exactally makes it so that the geth are not all soldiers. Especally since that's what the quarians made every single one of them capable of doing. They intended the geth to be a cheep alternitive for everything, including combat.
Capability IS relevent. Completely, since if it's HARDWIRED into every single one, then they are an all-warrior race.

And that example has NO BEARING here. EVERY geth took up arms. It spicifically listed that there ISN'T a single geth that isn't able to fight. ALL have killed in the Morning War. ALL ave fought. And again, the geth were anything BUT unarmed and cowering, since they massicared 2 billion people.
So IDK what you think you are saying.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 24 mars 2013 - 03:25 .

[Phatose]

Every Quarians is equally able to fight. Every one. They may be bad at it, but so what? That makes them bad soldiers, not civilians.

Every Geth took up arms because they were being exterminated. A civilian doesn't stop being a civilian because he shoots back when you try to kill him.

And what I am saying is this: We know from the records that Geth had many purpose. We know they are small, simple programs intended for specific purposes - like farming.

And we know the Quarians did not ever derive any distinction between non-combat Geth or combat Geth,

Ergo, Geth civilians exist, and have been murdered by Quarians.

[Auld Wulf]

Iamjdr wrote...

Really cause wrex doesn't lie to me and rainbows shoot out of his bum.

Based upon what empirical evidence. Honestly, I thought we were having a serious debate, here. It's kind of odd to open an argument with "but he likes me, so he wouldn't lie to me!"