4745 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Phatose wrote...

Ah, but Geth *can* die. The platforms aren't them. But they can clearly die if their current platform is destroyed and they are unable to transfer to another.

What about the Rachni? As I recall, the Queen used we, not I. Perhaps the difference is that they're closer to the Rachni then to humanity.

. The Rachni queen was speaking metaphorically.

But Legion counters your first point.  He says "Geth do not die.  When damaged they archive themselves until they can be retrieved"

[Khelish]

tevix wrote...

@Steelcan

You laid out a clear definition for what you consider life.

Geth don't fit that definition.

Therefore you don't define them as alive.

I apologize for the confusion but...you are sort of flip flopping.

Their type of life is not the same as ours.

Modifié par Khelish, 17 mars 2013 - 03:09 .

[Steelcan]

What the above said

Modifié par Steelcan, 17 mars 2013 - 03:09 .

[G Kevin]

Phatose wrote...

Ah, but Geth *can* die. The platforms aren't them. But they can clearly die if their current platform is destroyed and they are unable to transfer to another.

What about the Rachni? As I recall, the Queen used we, not I. Perhaps the difference is that they're closer to the Rachni then to humanity.

Possibly.

They aren't there yet, in their current state. Before Rannoch.

[Phatose]

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

But it's a meaningless and abritraty definition that bears no relation to the actual reasons we value life.  We valued life before we even knew what DNA was.  This is nothing more then an abritrary definition based on nothing.

.  It is based on all living things we have encountered.  We have yet to encounter a machine intelligence on par with a human.  The definition may change after that.  But I cannot wrap my head around the geth being the same as an organic 

What about the Reapers?  By this point in the story, we've long since established there are synthetics not merely on par with human intelligence, but far, far greater then it.

[Steelcan]

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

But it's a meaningless and abritraty definition that bears no relation to the actual reasons we value life.  We valued life before we even knew what DNA was.  This is nothing more then an abritrary definition based on nothing.

.  It is based on all living things we have encountered.  We have yet to encounter a machine intelligence on par with a human.  The definition may change after that.  But I cannot wrap my head around the geth being the same as an organic 

What about the Reapers?  By this point in the story, we've long since established there are synthetics not merely on par with human intelligence, but far, far greater then it.

. They are also living, but a different kind.

[G Kevin]

Phatose wrote...

What about the Reapers?  By this point in the story, we've long since established there are synthetics not merely on par with human intelligence, but far, far greater then it.

Do you mean the reapers, since they are controlled by the catalyst A.I.?

[Phatose]

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Ah, but Geth *can* die. The platforms aren't them. But they can clearly die if their current platform is destroyed and they are unable to transfer to another.

What about the Rachni? As I recall, the Queen used we, not I. Perhaps the difference is that they're closer to the Rachni then to humanity.

. The Rachni queen was speaking metaphorically.

But Legion counters your first point.  He says "Geth do not die.  When damaged they archive themselves until they can be retrieved"

I don't think she was.  None of the other Rachni ever had anything to say.  I see only one speaking, and she's using We.

[Steelcan]

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...
Ah, but Geth *can* die. The platforms aren't them. But they can clearly die if their current platform is destroyed and they are unable to transfer to another.

What about the Rachni? As I recall, the Queen used we, not I. Perhaps the difference is that they're closer to the Rachni then to humanity.

. The Rachni queen was speaking metaphorically.

But Legion counters your first point.  He says "Geth do not die.  When damaged they archive themselves until they can be retrieved"

I don't think she was.  None of the other Rachni ever had anything to say.  I see only one speaking, and she's using We.

. She's the only one who can speak.  She was referring to the Rachni species.  A collective or 'royal' "we"

[tevix]

@Steelcan
@Kelish

Those qualifications were laid out as what was necessary to be defined as "life".

If those are your requirements for you to say "It's a life form I can understand." that probably wasn't the best way to word it.

Again, just a confusion, I'm sorry.

Sheesh.

[Steelcan]

I'm out of this thread. Time for some shut eye

[Khelish]

tevix wrote...

@Steelcan
@Kelish

Those qualifications were laid out as what was necessary to be defined as "life".

If those are your requirements for you to say "It's a life form I can understand." that probably wasn't the best way to word it.

Again, just a confusion, I'm sorry.

Sheesh.

No worries.

PS: It's Khelish. 

[Phatose]

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...
Ah, but Geth *can* die. The platforms aren't them. But they can clearly die if their current platform is destroyed and they are unable to transfer to another.

What about the Rachni? As I recall, the Queen used we, not I. Perhaps the difference is that they're closer to the Rachni then to humanity.

. The Rachni queen was speaking metaphorically.

But Legion counters your first point.  He says "Geth do not die.  When damaged they archive themselves until they can be retrieved"

I don't think she was.  None of the other Rachni ever had anything to say.  I see only one speaking, and she's using We.

. She's the only one who can speak.  She was referring to the Rachni species.  A collective or 'royal' "we"

And you're basing this on?

[Steelcan]

Phatose wrote...

And you're basing this on?

. The fact that the Rachni exhibit hive mind, not a collective intelligence like the geth.

[Phatose]

Again, based on what?

[Khelish]

Well, this went off topic fast...

Has been fun, the grew beckons my return.

[Zazzerka]

No, because Tali is hotter than Legion, and I have many more thousands of EMS that nullifies the paltry bonus the geth give me.

[tevix]

@Phatose

ME1 clearly illustrates that without a queen to coordinate them rachni run rampant like rabid wild animals. That and they ARE an insect race.

Not all insect races operate on a hive mind, but a good number do.

Bees, ants for basic examples.

[Legion of 1337]

We can argue all day about whether they are "alive", since the definition of life is extremely difficult to pin down. What we do know is that the Geth are a collective, sentient, synthetic being with a survival instinct and some sort of moral values like that of organics. The question, regardless, is: do they deserve to die over the Quarians?

Ultimately I must side with the Quarians. Following Mordin's wisdom, all types of life are valuable, extinction should not be allowed if it can be helped. Thus I would never allow the Quarians to be hunted to extinction like the Raccni no matter how badly they screwed up - the mistakes of a few military leaders and politicians are not sufficient to condemn an entire species to extinction.

Thus when Legion decides to upload Reaper code to the Geth, after we just killed the Reaper to free them and save both races, I must say to myself "I do not agree with the Quarians' decision to destroy you - but I will NOT allow you to render them extinct. I will not be responsible for letting that happen. So as much as I want both of you to live, the Quarians have the upper hand and I can't do anything about that. So either I let things play out as they would have if the Reapers hadn't showed up, or I basically side with you. I can live with letting things pan out - letting the two forces fight each other to see who wins (the Geth lose, of course). I cannot live with actively enabling genocide, as the Geth will only win if I decide they will. Without my intervention, the Quarians would win by default. I can live with that."

There is also of course the matter of "without organics, synthetics would not exist". If we lose an organic race, we cannot make another to replace it, nature must do that itself. Synthetic life can be created by an organic with sufficient knowledge - far more easily replaced. If the synthetics kill all the organics, there will be no organics to replace the synthetics if they are destroyed. But if organics still exist and synthetics are wiped out? More can be made.

That is how I rationalize it.

[G Kevin]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

...Following Mordin's wisdom, all types of life are valuable, extinction should not be allowed if it can be helped....

Which is why I chose peace, but not given the option, I can't kill the Quarians because they are of a higher life form than the Geth are to me.

Modifié par G Kevin, 17 mars 2013 - 03:30 .

[Vespervin]

Steelcan wrote...

Vespervin wrote...

In my Renegade, anti-alien play-through my Shepard let the Geth kill the Quarians, then picked the destroy ending. Heh, two species down, few more to go. (Krogan were already dealt with)

But in my serious, canon play-through, I choose peace. There's no other option.

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=WGRKNzlyQrU

Why did you reply with a link to that video? I don't undertand.

[tevix]

@Legion of 1337

You...DO know that as far as the rannoch arc in ME3 goes the quarians are the agressors right?

They initiated the attack, they attacked a defenseless geth "world" essentially (the sphere, not rannoch itself).

At the very end of the rannoch mission if you say the first time you won't upload the code the geth try to REATREAT, and the quarians pursue THEM at Gerrel's orders.

The quarians intend to eliminate the geth there, not the other way around.

Whether or not they are alive or replaceable is irrelevant to that part. Since peace can be achieved by the quarians standing down first, and NOT the geth standing down first, that makes the quarians the agressor.

[Legion of 1337]

tevix wrote...

@Legion of 1337

You...DO know that as far as the rannoch arc in ME3 goes the quarians are the agressors right?

They initiated the attack, they attacked a defenseless geth "world" essentially (the sphere, not rannoch itself).

At the very end of the rannoch mission if you say the first time you won't upload the code the geth try to REATREAT, and the quarians pursue THEM at Gerrel's orders.

The quarians intend to eliminate the geth there, not the other way around.

Whether or not they are alive or replaceable is irrelevant to that part. Since peace can be achieved by the quarians standing down first, and NOT the geth standing down first, that makes the quarians the agressor.

I already said I acknowledge that. I don't care about that. The Quarians do not deserve to die any more than the Geth do, though I personnaly hope Gerrel got himself killed at the Battle of Earth. In any case, since neither deserve to die, I must think, cruelly, of which is of more value to the Galaxy.

Now that is a big judgement call, but to me, like I said, you can't easily replace an organic race,especially an advanced one, nature must do so itself over millions upon millions of years. So effectively, if you destory an organic race, that's it, they're gone. All the creative power of that organic race, including the power to create synthetic life, is gone forever. Synthetics can be made by organics at any time they choose. Is it cruel to say to synthetics "You owe your existence to us so we get to decide if you die"? Yes. But the Galaxy loses far more in creativity and advancement of civilization when organics are lost than when synthetics are lost.

It also just occured to me that the Geth  is being hypocrites. Legion says in ME2 the Geth want no part of any Reaper tech, yet in ME3 when the Geth see what Reaper code can do for them they use it. I would have had tremendous respect for the Geth if they had stuck to their principles regardless of whether it got them killed - it woudl prove they had something over organics who frequently violate principles in self-defence, and would REALLY make the Quarians looks like ****s.

Modifié par Legion of 1337, 17 mars 2013 - 03:47 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I thought the Geth exterminated nearly 100% of the Quarians nearly 300 years ago, and the council did nothing to help except make the Quarian people permanent wanderers without anywhere to live. Scavengers. For 300 years. So they want their home back. They found a way. Good. They would have won if the reaper hadn't showed up.

Fry the toasters. 1) The heretics had runtimes running in Legions's geth networks. 2) The geth were shooting at us for how long?

Fry them. Do not trust the synthetics. Javik was right.

The Geth had a different writer in ME3. They were made into something different. In ME1 & 2 they were completely alien. In ME3 they wanted to be like you and me. They wanted to have a mortgage and work a 9-5 job, and pretend to like one another.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 17 mars 2013 - 03:52 .