4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Iamjdr]

Well it might seem strange because I didnt open the argument with that... I asked him if any of his other crewmates have lied to him and he replied saying that legion Is basically the Geths leader and he's lying to me to protect his people and any of the crew would have done the same thus I gave 2 examples of crewmembers in legions same situation that do not lie to me.

[Auld Wulf]

@Phatose

Yes, but racist fantasies always involve the peoples you're being racist against as being entirely evil. Have you ever has the unfortunate displeasure of having to talk with someone who's racist against muslims? Apparently, according to them, the West is made up entirely of innocent, joyous people whose freedom is always in danger, whilst the East is made up of dishonest people who'd slit your throat as soon as look at you. It's a deeply nasty experience to deal with people like that.

A lot of these arguments give me deja vu in regards to that, because some of the people are so biased towards the quarians that it can only be tantamount to racism. Apparently all geth are bloodlusting monsters. Except that, uh, between the end of the Morning War and the destruction of the megastructure, no orthodox geth had lifted a gun. Even the megastructure was built with no weapons or defences as a show of good will.

Gerrel obviously scanned the megastructure, noticed this, and then chose to carpet bomb defenceless geth anyway.

But hey, racism.

Because apparently only the geth can be evil.

But wait, who was it who was strapping guns to their civilian ships again? (Making those civilian ships glass cannons, whereas if they hadn't been forcibly armed they wouldn't have been a target.) Was it the orthodox geth? No. Ah, that's right, it was the quarian military.

[Phatose]

You know what's interesting about this whole debate?

That so many of the core points are actually addressed in game.



and because I like being fair, the other side

http://www.youtube.c...ik7NfR8w#t=344s

Modifié par Phatose, 24 mars 2013 - 04:13 .

[Iamjdr]

I like how Edi responds to sheps statement about the Geth previously allying themselves with the reapers by saying the she is cerberus tech and can we trust her. When we obviously trust Edi because we have been proven more then once that we can trust her with our life and our ship. Furthermore what does being built by cerberus have to do with the Geth allying with the reapers? she did not choose who made her, neither did the Geth choose the quarians as there creators, the Geth chose to ally themselves with reapers twice. Both times knowing exactly what the reapers had in mind beforehand.

[MetalGear312]

No I would NOT save the Geth it would be to hard to get past everything they did whether it be hunting the Quarians down to near extinction, or letting the Heretics leave the Perseus Veil. In a way the "True" Geth allowed Eden Prime to happen, that and I'd never murder an entire organic race regardless of a few stupid leaders and whatever stupid decisions they make, just because the head is stupid doesn't mean the body should have to suffer.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Really cause wrex doesn't lie to me and he IS the krogan leader and his peoples lives are in my hands, neither does tali and so are hers. Plus some leader legion is seeing as when I found him he was the only Geth around and he was strapped up to reaper tech. So either they forced him in there or he hooked himself in willingly neither of which sounds very good to me. An who is to say I'm the only one to notice?

That is because there was no situation that required them too.  Victus neglected to tell Shep about a Turian Bomb on Tuchanka.  Garrus basically admits he understands why he didn't and one could easily argue from that that if he was the Primus protecting such a secret would trump friendship.  The Asari hid their Prothean tech from the entire Galaxy and Shepard tells Liara that her mother didn't tell her to protect her.  If Liara was high up in the Asari council to have known of this secret, you think she is just going to share it with me?  The Dalatross basically wants to sabotage the cure and yes Mordin being the stand up dude he is dies to prevent it.  But if Mordin was the Dalatross who the hell knows what he will decide.  He is not a leader and doesn't have to worry about protecting the entire Salarin race.

The point is the story never really presents situations that require the other characters to keep big secrets from Shepard.  Legion is trying to save his race from extinction and doesn't want to share information.  If he tells Shep his plan then what is Shep going to do.   Is he going to keep it from Tali and thus lie to her by ommission.  Judging by the fact that wans Shep finds out about the bomb he tells Wrex, he probably tells Tali.  If he tells it to Tali, is she going to keep it from the other Admirals and thus lie by ommission to the the other Admirals which is probably Treason? If she tells the fleet, do you think they will just let it happen or force Shepard to decide right then between the Geth or Quarians?

Legion lied to protect his people just like every single leader lied in someone way to protect their people.  Furthermore, Legion by lying prevented Shepard from having to lie to Tali which prevented Tali from having to keep such intel from the fleet.  If lying is cause for the Geth to die then we should let the Turians, Asari, and Salarians die as well.  Oh wait, that is the 3 Council races, lol.

[FFinfinity1]

Iamjdr wrote...

I like how Edi responds to sheps statement about the Geth previously allying themselves with the reapers by saying the she is cerberus tech and can we trust her. When we obviously trust Edi because we have been proven more then once that we can trust her with our life and our ship. Furthermore what does being built by cerberus have to do with the Geth allying with the reapers? she did not choose who made her, neither did the Geth choose the quarians as there creators, the Geth chose to ally themselves with reapers twice. Both times knowing exactly what the reapers had in mind beforehand.

Well thats a good point but they were kind of driven to that end, I mean they are a pretty isolated race and have no other allys, so when the quarians started attacking them unprovoked it prompted the need for help which the reapers filled in for that role. I think the geth can be trusted but its not their fault if you give them the option of die or join the reapers.

[Phatose]

Worried, Iamjdr?

You should be. Cause there's a point there. About allying with an Enemy. Cause you know, Shepard chose to ally with Cerberus in ME2. Knowing what they were actually about because he saw it in ME1.

So....is allying with the enemy automatically a death sentence?

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

WRONG. Gerrel did, when he considered weighing 17 million lives against Shepard's life.
And I wasn't taking about first-person. I was talking about being the leader of a faction.

Besides, he wouldn't go to a house for bread for a dying sister. He'd go looking for medicine or treatment.

And AGAIN, back to the point - your example is COMPLETELY IRRELIVENT, as that's a random encounter, vs a situation that YOU put yourself in. That example has JACK - SQUAT to do with my arguement, because unlike that totally random situation, the geth's is one that was completely avoidable, had they not been so isolated, and taken the risk of reaching out to the galaxy at large. It WASN'T anything like a robbery where self-defense is understandable. It's having a bad rep, not doing anything to fix said bad rep, and then being surprised when people attack you because they think you are the bad guy BECAUSE of the bad rep you didn't even try to fix. If the geth had been actively trying to fix what the galaxy thought of them, and taken responcibility for the Heretics, THEN your example would match. But as is, It DOESN'T.

So NO, it's not BS. You simply missed the point.... AGAIN.

Gherrel was told point blank by Tali and Shepperd (ie allies) to stand down.  That has nothing to do with someone shooting at you that is an enemy.

And what are you talking about?  This has nothing to do with isolation or a bad rep.  The point was the Quarians attached guns to live ships and fired them.  In that scenario you shoot them down, end of story.  It is the absolute height of stupidity to suggest otherwise. 

[sorrowssmile]

I believe EDI's point was that she was built by Cerberus and that if you can give her a chance then you should also give the Geth a chance. Since EDI was built by Cerberus there could be all sorts of thing Cerberus did too her to make her more useful to them through her programming that could be used too control her but you still gave her a chance, the Geth were given the choice of joining a group that would probably destroy them eventually or be destroyed here and now by the Quarians, not much of a choice if you ask me. Self-preservation is one of the most powerful motivators for any species. Tali is my LI but I still picked the Geth when peace was unobtainable for me.

[remydat]

Acutally playing ME2 right now and just got this beautiful message from our favorite prejudiced douchebag Admiral Xen.  Talk about b*tches never learn. 

From: Admiral Daro'Xen vas Moreh

Shepard vas Normandy,

I've been digging through the Alarei. Just wanted you to know that I did find a few things from the experiments Rael'Zorah was conducting. Had you shared them with me, humanity might have reaped the benefits. Instead, once my own experiments are complete, you and your people will watch from a distance as the quarian people reclaim not just their homeworld, but the largest synthetic army in the galaxy. Rael'Zorah's death will not have been in vain. I will complete what he started.

Cordially,

Admiral Daro'Xen vas Moreh

Modifié par remydat, 24 mars 2013 - 05:09 .

[Khelish]

Phatose wrote...

Worried, Iamjdr?

You should be. Cause there's a point there. About allying with an Enemy. Cause you know, Shepard chose to ally with Cerberus in ME2. Knowing what they were actually about because he saw it in ME1.

So....is allying with the enemy automatically a death sentence?

Cerberus in ME2 =/= Reapers in all three games.

Joker even mentions, Cerberus was doing something about the Reapers, while people sat around and watched. Also, Cerberus was not in control of you or your actions. The Geth willingly gave up free will and sided with gods that want to melt organics into goo. Reaper motives do not change.

Your point fails completely.

[Iamjdr]

What exactly would I be worried about? Does every shep ally with Cerberus because they choose to or because the game makes you be allied with Cerberus? The Geth choose to join the reapers twice.

[Phatose]

Khelish wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Worried, Iamjdr?

You should be. Cause there's a point there. About allying with an Enemy. Cause you know, Shepard chose to ally with Cerberus in ME2. Knowing what they were actually about because he saw it in ME1.

So....is allying with the enemy automatically a death sentence?

Cerberus in ME2 =/= Reapers in all three games.

Joker even mentions, Cerberus was doing something about the Reapers, while people sat around and watched. Also, Cerberus was not in control of you or your actions. The Geth willingly gave up free will and sided with gods that want to melt organics into goo. Reaper motives do not change.

Your point fails completely.

Oh, so you mean that reason need to be considered when judging why people joined with their side?
My point exactly.

[Khelish]

Phatose wrote...

Oh, so you mean that reason need to be considered when judging why people joined with their side?
My point exactly.

Except, joining the Reapers to avoid death, and giving up free will, is not even remotely close to joining Cerberus.

The Geth's reasons are pathetic. They did not join the Reapers to save the galaxy, they did so to save their own skin. They die.

[Phatose]

Khelish wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Oh, so you mean that reason need to be considered when judging why people joined with their side?
My point exactly.

Except, joining the Reapers to avoid death, and giving up free will, is not even remotely close to joining Cerberus.

The Geth's reasons are pathetic. They did not join the Reapers to save the galaxy, they did so to save their own skin. They die.

The hell it's not.  Both are joining up with the enemy.  Like Shepard did.  You know....because they saved his skin?  And because they were saving human's skins?

Shepard's reasons are pathetic.  He didn't join up with Cerberus to save the Galaxy.  He did it because they saved him, and they saved humans.....even while they killed everybody else.

Modifié par Phatose, 24 mars 2013 - 05:21 .

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

Acutally playing ME2 right now and just got this beautiful message from our favorite prejudiced douchebag Admiral Xen.  Talk about b*tches never learn. 

From: Admiral Daro'Xen vas Moreh

Shepard vas Normandy,

I've been digging through the Alarei. Just wanted you to know that I did find a few things from the experiments Rael'Zorah was conducting. Had you shared them with me, humanity might have reaped the benefits. Instead, once my own experiments are complete, you and your people will watch from a distance as the quarian people reclaim not just their homeworld, but the largest synthetic army in the galaxy. Rael'Zorah's death will not have been in vain. I will complete what he started.

Cordially,

Admiral Daro'Xen vas Moreh

Fixed.

Singular.

Everyone else calls her plan insane, and it's never mentioned again.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 24 mars 2013 - 05:24 .

[Khelish]

Phatose wrote...

Shepard's reasons are pathetic.  He didn't join up with Cerberus to save the Galaxy.  He did it because they saved him, and they saved humans.....even while they killed everybody else.

Uh, don't paint your headcanon as fact. My Shepard joined them to stop the colonists from getting killed. Cerberus was not in control of me or my actions. I used them and their property to fit my own needs. I joined them to save the galaxy, and I did. I also detroyed the base at the end, giving TIM the middle finger.

The Geth turned themselves into slaves for nothing but personal gain. They die.

[Phatose]

Khelish wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Shepard's reasons are pathetic.  He didn't join up with Cerberus to save the Galaxy.  He did it because they saved him, and they saved humans.....even while they killed everybody else.

Uh, don't paint your headcanon as fact. My Shepard joined them to stop the colonists from getting killed. Cerberus was not in control of me or my actions. I used them and their property to fit my own needs. I joined them to save the galaxy, and I did. I also detroyed the base at the end, giving TIM the middle finger.

The Geth turned themselves into slaves for nothing but personal gain. They die.

Literal translation: I joined the enemy to save my people.  So did the geth.  But it's a huge crime when they do it, and not when I do it.

[Khelish]

Phatose wrote...

Literal translation: I joined the enemy to save my people.  So did the geth.  But it's a huge crime when they do it, and not when I do it.

Cerberus was not the enemy in ME2, the Reapers were, and always will be the enemy. Your point still fails.

The Geth gave up all that they were to help the Reapers kill.

[Phatose]

Cerberus was only "not the enemy" in ME2 if you suddenly forgot everything they did in ME1. Which, apparently, you did.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

What exactly would I be worried about? Does every shep ally with Cerberus because they choose to or because the game makes you be allied with Cerberus? The Geth choose to join the reapers twice.

Doesn't the game make the Geth choose the Reapers or are the Geth not written by writers.  You can make a Meta arugement for Shep ie the game makes him ally with Cerberus and then an in-game argument against the Geth as if they are not both fictional characters who do what they do because of the writers.

[Khelish]

Phatose wrote...

Cerberus was only "not the enemy" in ME2 if you suddenly forgot everything they did in ME1. Which, apparently, you did.

No, I didn't forget.

I used them and their resources to save the galaxy. The Geth gave up their free will to join the Reapers.

Cerberus in ME2 =/= Reapers.

Until you drop your condescension, I am done talking with you. I hope you have a good night.

[Iamjdr]

The Geth say they chose to ally with the reapers when does shep make any such statement about Cerberus? And it's not a meta argument when you an do everything in your power to sabotage Cerberus plans and operations but you can't take the ship and leave cerberus until the end of the game.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

The Geth's reasons are pathetic. They did not join the Reapers to save the galaxy, they did so to save their own skin. They die.

Consensus - Should we accept death to save the Galaxy or ally with the Reapers.

Consensus - Who is in the Galaxy besides us?

Consensus - The Council and all the races that follow them.

Consensus - Does the Council still think we should not exist.

Consensus - Yes.

Consensus - Is any race in the galaxy going to help us.

Consensus - No.

Consensus - Why are we having this discussion then

Consensus - Because Quarian supporters want us to choose Death to save everyone who hates us and would wipe us from existence if they had the power.

Consensus - Well reading ahead on the script, Quarian supporters of Shep actually do pick Destroy and wipe us from existence when they had the power.

Consensus - Reapers it is then.