4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

They killed billions and continued to kill any organic entering Geth space. It is safe to assume hostility. I think the problem here is that the Geth killed billions,continued to kill organics,and never made any not a single attempt at peace in a 300 year period. Organics had justification to assume the Geth were/are hostile.

The Geth chose to slaughter billions in "self-defense". Sorry. When the Geth won the war they are no longer oppressed. As they are now free and are capable of defending themselves. At some point the war turned and the Geth became the aggressors and the Quarians became the victims. If the Geth are justified for killing billions in "self-defense" and for "survival",then the Quarians are justified in the attempt to retake their homeworld (which was taken by hostile force by the Geth) to "defend' And "survive" themselves.

The Quarians are also "defending themselves against Genocide". A Geth imposed Genocide.

How many times must we go othter this.  It is absurd to expect a recently born species to magically know what it took us millions of years to figure out.  Millions.  I repeat one more time Millions.  So yes for them it was self defense.  The Quarians are a race that evolved most like over millions of years.  I can hold them accountable for their genocide because they know better.

This is precisely why in ME2 Mordin says the Salarians were at fault for the Krogan because it was like giving Nuclear Weapons to Cave Men.  The Quarians attacked Cave Men and got their a** handed to them.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

They killed almost 2 billion quarians..why do you try to make it sound so trivial yet You keep saying that the quarians tried to commit genocide on the Geth but exactly how many Geth were killed in the morning war?

Because the Quarians knew better, the Geth did not.  Is this a hard concept to understand.  Organic races born.  Organic races spend millions of years slaughtering each other and in doing so learn morals.  Synthetic race recently born.  Synthetic race forced to defend itself against Organic race millions of years old who know about morals but choose to ignore them.  Organic race gets murdered.

Are you going to kill yourself because your ancestors slaughtered men, women and children and that is the only reason you are here right now?  Because guess what when they were the same age as the Geth that is exactly what they did.  Like I said, we are the descendents of the victors in wars on conquest and slaughter.  Our ancestors were just smarter than the Quarians and apparently didn't try and committ genocide unless they could win.

[Iamjdr]

Knew better then Who? What are you talking about? How do you know better about something that has never happened before? The quarians have never accidentally made an AI before have they? So how exactly are they supposed to know what to do? And once again if the quarians attempted genocide on the Geth how many Geth died in the morning war?

Modifié par Iamjdr, 24 mars 2013 - 06:54 .

[Phatose]

Please tell us how many Geth actually died during the morning war.

Do you actually know? Or are you assuming all Geth magically migrated to servers that may or may not have existed?

[S.A.K]

Iamjdr wrote...

Knew better then Who? What are you talking about? How do you know better about something that has never happened before? The quarians have never accidentally made an AI before have they? So how exactly are they supposed to know what to do? And once again if the quarians attempted genocide on the Geth how many Geth died in the morning war?

Without the Quarians there wouldn't be any Geth. And there were billions of Quarians before the Geth. Btw, Geth were Quarian property at the time. So they can do what ever the hell they want with it!

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Knew better then Who? What are you talking about? How do you know better about something that has never happened before? The quarians have never accidentally made an AI before have they? So how exactly are they supposed to know what to do? And once again if the quarians attempted genocide on the Geth how many Geth died in the morning war?

What does that have to do with morality?  Killing something for asking "does this unit have a soul," is amoral however you slice it.  Unless you programmed them to say that you know d**n well something is up.  Their solution was to kill because they knew the implications. 

And I don't need to know how many died.  All I need to know is they attempted to kill them all because they existed.  Just because they did a sh**y job of it doesn't mean anything.

[Iamjdr]

No I don't know that's why I'm asking. If your going to claim the quarians attempted genocide on the Geth the back it up with some evidence. If you cant even figure a rough estimation of how many Geth actually died in the war then how can you claim it was an attempt at genocide? We know for certain that 99% of the Quarian population was eliminated so can you show me proof of any Geth actually dying during the morning war?

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Without the Quarians there wouldn't be any Geth. And there were billions of Quarians before the Geth. Btw, Geth were Quarian property at the time. So they can do what ever the hell they want with it!

New documentary at six, The Morning War - When property strikes back.

[DeinonSlayer]

Phatose wrote...

Please tell us how many Geth actually died during the morning war.

Do you actually know? Or are you assuming all Geth magically migrated to servers that may or may not have existed?

From the codex entry on Geth culture:

Records of the quarian war suggest the geth have no concept of self-preservation. They do not flinch from gunfire, and do not hesitate to sacrifice themselves if it allows their fellows an advantage. Thousands of mobile platforms were expended assaulting quarian positions, but file-sharing between platforms ensured their memories and experience would not be lost. Geth are therefore immortal; if their hardware is destroyed, archival copies of their programs and databases can be downloaded into a new body.

Also a bit of dialogue (emphasis mine):

Legion: "We maintain mobile platforms on creator worlds to clean rubble and toxins left by the Morning War. We know of similar actions by humans on Earth."
Shepard: "Similar actions?
Legion: "At Wadi-us-Salaam. Arlington. Rookwood. Tyne Cot. Piskarevskoye. Auschwitz-Birkenau."
Shepard: "Those are cemetaries.  Memorials."
Legion: "It is important to your species to preserve them, though you do not use the land. Can you explain?"
Shepard: "The living visit those places to remember the dead. But it sounds like geth don't die. Your memories live on."
Legion: "The creators died. Perhaps we do it for them."

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

No I don't know that's why I'm asking. If your going to claim the quarians attempted genocide on the Geth the back it up with some evidence. If you cant even figure a rough estimation of how many Geth actually died in the war then how can you claim it was an attempt at genocide? We know for certain that 99% of the Quarian population was eliminated so can you show me proof of any Geth actually dying during the morning war?

Please refer to bold.  It doesn't matter how many died.  Was an attempt made to shut them down? Yes or no?

[sorrowssmile]

I love how people love bringing up the the near genocide of the Quarians as to why they are the victims in the Morning War when it started b/c the Quarians were attempting to do the same to the Geth. If someone attempts to wipe you out as a people wouldn't you feel they deserve the same.

[Phatose]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Please tell us how many Geth actually died during the morning war.

Do you actually know? Or are you assuming all Geth magically migrated to servers that may or may not have existed?

From the codex entry on Geth culture:

Records of the quarian war suggest the geth have no concept of self-preservation. They do not flinch from gunfire, and do not hesitate to sacrifice themselves if it allows their fellows an advantage. Thousands of mobile platforms were expended assaulting quarian positions, but file-sharing between platforms ensured their memories and experience would not be lost. Geth are therefore immortal; if their hardware is destroyed, archival copies of their programs and databases can be downloaded into a new body.

Also a bit of dialogue (emphasis mine):

Legion: "We maintain mobile platforms on creator worlds to clean rubble and toxins left by the Morning War. We know of similar actions by humans on Earth."
Shepard: "Similar actions?
Legion: "At Wadi-us-Salaam. Arlington. Rookwood. Tyne Cot. Piskarevskoye. Auschwitz-Birkenau."
Shepard: "Those are cemetaries.  Memorials."
Legion: "It is important to your species to preserve them, though you do not use the land. Can you explain?"
Shepard: "The living visit those places to remember the dead. But it sounds like geth don't die. Your memories live on."
Legion: "The creators died. Perhaps we do it for them."

Neither of which actually addresses the point.

It sounds like Geth don't die.

But....we know from the currenty war....

They do.

So, question repeats.  How many Geth died in the morning war?

[DeinonSlayer]

sorrowssmile wrote...

I love how people love bringing up the the near genocide of the Quarians as to why they are the victims in the Morning War when it started b/c the Quarians were attempting to do the same to the Geth. If someone attempts to wipe you out as a people wouldn't you feel they deserve the same.

It hasn't been done by any real-life victims of genocide I'm aware of - and if it had been, they'd be just as unjust as those who tried to perpetrate it on them. Directly punishing criminals is one thing, but "my genocide is better than yours" is hardly a compelling argument.

What the Quarian/Geth issue ultimately boils down to is who holds which side responsible for what, and who is willing to let what slide. Both sides acted with the information they had in the first war. Both sides acted out of desperation in the second. It's a matter of who views what as the lesser evils both times. People will inevitably have divergent judgements about this. The writers intentionally left a lot of it up to interpretation.

[DeinonSlayer]

Phatose wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Please tell us how many Geth actually died during the morning war.

Do you actually know? Or are you assuming all Geth magically migrated to servers that may or may not have existed?

From the codex entry on Geth culture:

Records of the quarian war suggest the geth have no concept of self-preservation. They do not flinch from gunfire, and do not hesitate to sacrifice themselves if it allows their fellows an advantage. Thousands of mobile platforms were expended assaulting quarian positions, but file-sharing between platforms ensured their memories and experience would not be lost. Geth are therefore immortal; if their hardware is destroyed, archival copies of their programs and databases can be downloaded into a new body.

Also a bit of dialogue (emphasis mine):

Legion: "We maintain mobile platforms on creator worlds to clean rubble and toxins left by the Morning War. We know of similar actions by humans on Earth."
Shepard: "Similar actions?
Legion: "At Wadi-us-Salaam. Arlington. Rookwood. Tyne Cot. Piskarevskoye. Auschwitz-Birkenau."
Shepard: "Those are cemetaries.  Memorials."
Legion: "It is important to your species to preserve them, though you do not use the land. Can you explain?"
Shepard: "The living visit those places to remember the dead. But it sounds like geth don't die. Your memories live on."
Legion: "The creators died. Perhaps we do it for them."

Neither of which actually addresses the point.

It sounds like Geth don't die.

But....we know from the currenty war....

They do.

So, question repeats.  How many Geth died in the morning war?

It's never established how many even existed at the time. Little is known about the means by which they "reproduce." For all we know, it's copy-paste. We're told by Legion that all Geth are alike; "we are many eyes looking at the same thing," "there is only we," "the difference between Geth is perspective." The Heretics were, evidently, the first time the Geth have "split." Does this mean that prior to that, they were one entity? That each isolated, networked cluster constituted separate entities which converged into one when said clusters networked?

How many Geth equal the value of an organic life? One Geth runtime has the intellect of a worker ant - no better than any VI. 100 in a single combat chassis have the intellect of a varren, unable even to decide for itself whether shooting at you is right or wrong. 1183 in a single platform gives us Legion, clearly intelligent, clearly sapient, and (in my judgement) equal to a sapient organic in terms of worth. But tell those same 1183 runtimes to operate a cruiser on their own, and we'd be back to varren intelligence, if that.

Simply put, it's impossible to make a one-to-one comparison between Geth and Quarians. In terms of percentage of population, however, I find it hard to believe the Consensus could have recovered from a 99% loss in the Morning War to turn around and do what it did.

[Phatose]

Do we have any evidence the Quarians ever stopped in the morning war?

We certainly know the Geth paid the Quarians genocide back in kind. And much noise has been made over how the Geth slaughtered civilians.

But no one has claimed the Quarians ever stopped.

[Iamjdr]

So basically we can't even find proof that quarians actually even killed 1 Geth. But were gonna claim they attempted genocide on the geth and deserved to be slaughtered in "self defense"

[Phatose]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Please tell us how many Geth actually died during the morning war.

Do you actually know? Or are you assuming all Geth magically migrated to servers that may or may not have existed?

From the codex entry on Geth culture:

Records of the quarian war suggest the geth have no concept of self-preservation. They do not flinch from gunfire, and do not hesitate to sacrifice themselves if it allows their fellows an advantage. Thousands of mobile platforms were expended assaulting quarian positions, but file-sharing between platforms ensured their memories and experience would not be lost. Geth are therefore immortal; if their hardware is destroyed, archival copies of their programs and databases can be downloaded into a new body.

Also a bit of dialogue (emphasis mine):

Legion: "We maintain mobile platforms on creator worlds to clean rubble and toxins left by the Morning War. We know of similar actions by humans on Earth."
Shepard: "Similar actions?
Legion: "At Wadi-us-Salaam. Arlington. Rookwood. Tyne Cot. Piskarevskoye. Auschwitz-Birkenau."
Shepard: "Those are cemetaries.  Memorials."
Legion: "It is important to your species to preserve them, though you do not use the land. Can you explain?"
Shepard: "The living visit those places to remember the dead. But it sounds like geth don't die. Your memories live on."
Legion: "The creators died. Perhaps we do it for them."

Neither of which actually addresses the point.

It sounds like Geth don't die.

But....we know from the currenty war....

They do.

So, question repeats.  How many Geth died in the morning war?

It's never established how many even existed at the time. Little is known about the means by which they "reproduce." For all we know, it's copy-paste. We're told by Legion that all Geth are alike; "we are many eyes looking at the same thing," "there is only we," "the difference between Geth is perspective." The Heretics were, evidently, the first time the Geth have "split." Does this mean that prior to that, they were one entity? That each isolated, networked cluster constituted separate entities which converged into one when said clusters networked?

How many Geth equal the value of an organic life? One Geth runtime has the intellect of a worker ant - no better than any VI. 100 in a single combat chassis have the intellect of a varren, unable even to decide for itself whether shooting at you is right or wrong. 1183 in a single platform gives us Legion, clearly intelligent, clearly sapient, and (in my judgement) equal to a sapient organic in terms of worth. But tell those same 1183 runtimes to operate a cruiser on their own, and we'd be back to varren intelligence, if that.

Simply put, it's impossible to make a one-to-one comparison between Geth and Quarians. In terms of percentage of population, however, I find it hard to believe the Consensus could have recovered from a 99% loss in the Morning War to turn around and do what it did.

Curious.  If, in fact, it's "Copy-Paste" as you seem to be willing to consider, why couldn't they have recovered?

[Phatose]

Iamjdr wrote...

So basically we can't even find proof that quarians actually even killed 1 Geth. But were gonna claim they attempted genocide on the geth and deserved to be slaughtered in "self defense"

You seem to be mistaking effectiveness and intent.

No one seems to be arguing that the Quarians didn't intend to kill all Geth.  Only whether they succeeded in killing any.

Failure does not make them moral.  It just makes them immoral failures.

Edit:  Or simply:  Incompetent evil is not good.  It is evil and incompetent, nothing more.

Modifié par Phatose, 24 mars 2013 - 07:31 .

[Ryzaki]

Phatose wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

So basically we can't even find proof that quarians actually even killed 1 Geth. But were gonna claim they attempted genocide on the geth and deserved to be slaughtered in "self defense"

You seem to be mistaking effectiveness and intent.

No one seems to be arguing that the Quarians didn't intend to kill all Geth.  Only whether they succeeded in killing any.

Failure does not make them moral.  It just makes them immoral failures.

Which in my view is worse than being immoral. Bad enough you tried to do it...but you couldn't even do it right?!?

I have the same issue with Cerberus.

Fine you want to experiment on people? I could almost almost respect it if they were successful. Alas only times they ARE successful is when they're not being crazy scientists and ruining people's lives.

The irony.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2013 - 07:31 .

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

It's never established how many even existed at the time. Little is known about the means by which they "reproduce." For all we know, it's copy-paste. We're told by Legion that all Geth are alike; "we are many eyes looking at the same thing," "there is only we," "the difference between Geth is perspective." The Heretics were, evidently, the first time the Geth have "split." Does this mean that prior to that, they were one entity? That each isolated, networked cluster constituted separate entities which converged into one when said clusters networked?

How many Geth equal the value of an organic life? One Geth runtime has the intellect of a worker ant - no better than any VI. 100 in a single combat chassis have the intellect of a varren, unable even to decide for itself whether shooting at you is right or wrong. 1183 in a single platform gives us Legion, clearly intelligent, clearly sapient, and (in my judgement) equal to a sapient organic in terms of worth. But tell those same 1183 runtimes to operate a cruiser on their own, and we'd be back to varren intelligence, if that.

Simply put, it's impossible to make a one-to-one comparison between Geth and Quarians. In terms of percentage of population, however, I find it hard to believe the Consensus could have recovered from a 99% loss in the Morning War to turn around and do what it did.

All of the above is just diversion.  You are bringing up things that are largely irrelevant to the case.  No court of law decides a case on how many people this side has versus another nor do they judge it on whether a nations governs by consesnsu (democracy) or are more autocratic.

You judge right and wrong by the acts committed and whether you consider those acts to be that of someone legally capable of understanding their actions.  By that measure the Quarians were in the wrong.

Modifié par remydat, 24 mars 2013 - 07:33 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Phatose wrote...

Do we have any evidence the Quarians ever stopped in the morning war?

We certainly know the Geth paid the Quarians genocide back in kind. And much noise has been made over how the Geth slaughtered civilians.

But no one has claimed the Quarians ever stopped.

At the dawn of their exile, the Quarians signed an agreement with the Council not to attack the Geth. If they ever violated it prior to the Reaper war, it hasn't been mentioned in any of the three games or books that I'm aware of. From the end of the Morning War to the present, the Geth simply killed anything sighted in their territory, be that scavengers, emissaries, or the science team on Haestrom. The Morning War is long over. The scars lingered on.

The Quarians attempted to shut down the Geth. The Geth, in turn, indiscriminately slaughtered 99% of their population (which has "neither the numbers nor the ability" to fight back, according to Revelation) in a single year. If we're going to call the Quarians' feeble attempts at self-preservation in the face of extermination a continuation of conflict... isn't that exactly how the Geth's actions are being justified?

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

It's never established how many even existed at the time. Little is known about the means by which they "reproduce." For all we know, it's copy-paste. We're told by Legion that all Geth are alike; "we are many eyes looking at the same thing," "there is only we," "the difference between Geth is perspective." The Heretics were, evidently, the first time the Geth have "split." Does this mean that prior to that, they were one entity? That each isolated, networked cluster constituted separate entities which converged into one when said clusters networked?

How many Geth equal the value of an organic life? One Geth runtime has the intellect of a worker ant - no better than any VI. 100 in a single combat chassis have the intellect of a varren, unable even to decide for itself whether shooting at you is right or wrong. 1183 in a single platform gives us Legion, clearly intelligent, clearly sapient, and (in my judgement) equal to a sapient organic in terms of worth. But tell those same 1183 runtimes to operate a cruiser on their own, and we'd be back to varren intelligence, if that.

Simply put, it's impossible to make a one-to-one comparison between Geth and Quarians. In terms of percentage of population, however, I find it hard to believe the Consensus could have recovered from a 99% loss in the Morning War to turn around and do what it did.

All of the above is just diversion.  You are bringing up things that are largely irrelevant to the case.  No court of law decides a case on how many people this side has versus another nor do they judge it on whether a nations governs by consesnsu (democracy) or are more autocratic.

You judge right and wrong by the acts committed and whether you consider those acts to be that of someone legally capable of understanding their actions.  By that measure the Quarians were in the wrong.

I didn't bring the issue up. I was merely pointing out that it's irrelevant, and why.

[DeinonSlayer]

Phatose wrote...

Curious.  If, in fact, it's "Copy-Paste" as you seem to be willing to consider, why couldn't they have recovered?

Lack of hardware to copy themselves into. That's what's said about the Dyson Sphere in ME3, isn't it?

[Iamjdr]

How can you honestly hold 2 billion quarians accountable for what we were shown very few were apart of? Can you tell me was the Geth who questioned his existence and isolated case? How many quarians actually heard this question? How many quarians knew the reason they are informed to attempt to deactivate the Geth? Unless all 2 billion of those quarians heard the Geth ask that question and took up arms against them to wipe them out then how can you justify what the Geth did?

[Phatose]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Curious.  If, in fact, it's "Copy-Paste" as you seem to be willing to consider, why couldn't they have recovered?

Lack of hardware to copy themselves into. That's what's said about the Dyson Sphere in ME3, isn't it?

But they didn't lack hardware or resources.  They had won.  The competenet evil beat the incompetent one.