4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

At the dawn of their exile, the Quarians signed an agreement with the Council not to attack the Geth. If they ever violated it prior to the Reaper war, it hasn't been mentioned in any of the three games or books that I'm aware of. From the end of the Morning War to the present, the Geth simply killed anything sighted in their territory, be that scavengers, emissaries, or the science team on Haestrom. The Morning War is long over. The scars lingered on.

The Quarians attempted to shut down the Geth. The Geth, in turn, indiscriminately slaughtered 99% of their population (which has "neither the numbers nor the ability" to fight back, according to Revelation) in a single year. If we're going to call the Quarians' feeble attempts at self-preservation in the face of extermination a continuation of conflict... isn't that exactly how the Geth's actions are being justified?

I believed he asked if there was any evidence the Quarians stopped IN the MW ie people keep saying the Geth killed indiscriminately but if the Quarians kept attacking and keep throwing civilians at them then they are not being killed indiscriminately.  They are being killed because they are attacking.

[Phatose]

Iamjdr wrote...

How can you honestly hold 2 billion quarians accountable for what we were shown very few were apart of? Can you tell me was the Geth who questioned his existence and isolated case? How many quarians actually heard this question? How many quarians knew the reason they are informed to attempt to deactivate the Geth? Unless all 2 billion of those quarians heard the Geth ask that question and took up arms against them to wipe them out then how can you justify what the Geth did?

I don't have to. 

If the Quarians did what they thought they have to do to survive, and the Geth did what they have to do to survive....

Then, the Quarians, as the aggressors, are to blame. 

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

How can you honestly hold 2 billion quarians accountable for what we were shown very few were apart of? Can you tell me was the Geth who questioned his existence and isolated case? How many quarians actually heard this question? How many quarians knew the reason they are informed to attempt to deactivate the Geth? Unless all 2 billion of those quarians heard the Geth ask that question and took up arms against them to wipe them out then how can you justify what the Geth did?

For the same reason you can hold the Geth accountable.  We don't know for sure and are both giving our opinion.  How many of the 2 billion were innocent people who never fired at the Geth?  Is there any evidence that at any point while the MW was going on, the Quarians sought to surrender and the Geth refused them?  If the Quarians fought until the bitter end then why should I concern myself with the Geth killing people who attacked them and never stopped attacking them until they were down to 17 million and then decided maybe it was time to flee?

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

They killed billions and continued to kill any organic entering Geth space. It is safe to assume hostility. I think the problem here is that the Geth killed billions,continued to kill organics,and never made any not a single attempt at peace in a 300 year period. Organics had justification to assume the Geth were/are hostile.

The Geth chose to slaughter billions in "self-defense". Sorry. When the Geth won the war they are no longer oppressed. As they are now free and are capable of defending themselves. At some point the war turned and the Geth became the aggressors and the Quarians became the victims. If the Geth are justified for killing billions in "self-defense" and for "survival",then the Quarians are justified in the attempt to retake their homeworld (which was taken by hostile force by the Geth) to "defend' And "survive" themselves.

The Quarians are also "defending themselves against Genocide". A Geth imposed Genocide.

How many times must we go othter this.  It is absurd to expect a recently born species to magically know what it took us millions of years to figure out.  Millions.  I repeat one more time Millions.  So yes for them it was self defense.  The Quarians are a race that evolved most like over millions of years.  I can hold them accountable for their genocide because they know better.

This is precisely why in ME2 Mordin says the Salarians were at fault for the Krogan because it was like giving Nuclear Weapons to Cave Men.  The Quarians attacked Cave Men and got their a** handed to them.

The Geth had the entire collective knowledge of the Quarian people. "Millions" of years of knowledge.Come on. Ignore the rest. As usual.  So Geth Justified equals Quarian justified. That is how you "interpret" the situation of Geth knowledge. Within 300 years most Geth tech is better then Citadel space tech. They fully understand what happen,what is going on,and how the galaxy views them for their actions.Lol

The Geth can also be held accountable for their actions. Actions including killing billions,remaining hostile towards organics within their space,never attempting peace,never making a distinction between the two factions of Geth,and on two separate occasions the Geth were "willing" and "capable" of wiping out all civilized organic life before they were stopped. The conflict existing for 300 years and the Geth willing to aid the Reapers on two separate occasions is the concrete in the Catalyst statements.

The Geth were willing to become enslaved servant tools for the Reapers. One of the very things the Geth fought against,and some claim to be one of the reasons behind the conflict.

[Iamjdr]

The same reason I can hold the Geth accountable? They killed 2 billion quarian.....what was you reason again? Oh yeah " attempted genocide" on not fully evolved AI.....with no casualties to speak of.... Right

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

At the dawn of their exile, the Quarians signed an agreement with the Council not to attack the Geth. If they ever violated it prior to the Reaper war, it hasn't been mentioned in any of the three games or books that I'm aware of. From the end of the Morning War to the present, the Geth simply killed anything sighted in their territory, be that scavengers, emissaries, or the science team on Haestrom. The Morning War is long over. The scars lingered on.

The Quarians attempted to shut down the Geth. The Geth, in turn, indiscriminately slaughtered 99% of their population (which has "neither the numbers nor the ability" to fight back, according to Revelation) in a single year. If we're going to call the Quarians' feeble attempts at self-preservation in the face of extermination a continuation of conflict... isn't that exactly how the Geth's actions are being justified?

I believed he asked if there was any evidence the Quarians stopped IN the MW ie people keep saying the Geth killed indiscriminately but if the Quarians kept attacking and keep throwing civilians at them then they are not being killed indiscriminately.  They are being killed because they are attacking.

Have you ever looked at one of these?

https://www.cia.gov/...pgraph 2012.bmp

Population pyramid for a developed country. This is assuming the entire Quarian species was developed - no atechnological desert aboriginals. Factor in less-developed, less-technological nations, and the younger end of the pyramid swells even more. Are we really going to pretend that the Quarians threw their entire population at the Geth? Before it's brought up, they weren't on ships back then, carried into combat against their will (and playing no role in it besides being on the ships that are). The entire war lasted a single year according to the timestamps in the Consensus - a single year to obliterate a species distributed across multiple worlds. Even if we were to pretend that they were as militarized as the single most militarized nation on Earth is today (Israel - compulsory service for both men and women at age 18), barely over 1/3rd of the population would be deemed capable of fighting (physically and mentally fit men and women 17-49 years of age, 2.9 million out of a population of 8 million, according to Wikipedia). Only a fraction of those would be in the armed forces or the reserves.

[Phatose]

Iamjdr wrote...

The same reason I can hold the Geth accountable? They killed 2 billion quarian.....what was you reason again? Oh yeah " attempted genocide" on not fully evolved AI.....with no casualties to speak of.... Right

Actually it's "Attempted genocide with unknown and unaccounted casualties on an intelligent species."

Failure in an unethical act is not ethics.  It is failure.

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

At the dawn of their exile, the Quarians signed an agreement with the Council not to attack the Geth. If they ever violated it prior to the Reaper war, it hasn't been mentioned in any of the three games or books that I'm aware of. From the end of the Morning War to the present, the Geth simply killed anything sighted in their territory, be that scavengers, emissaries, or the science team on Haestrom. The Morning War is long over. The scars lingered on.

The Quarians attempted to shut down the Geth. The Geth, in turn, indiscriminately slaughtered 99% of their population (which has "neither the numbers nor the ability" to fight back, according to Revelation) in a single year. If we're going to call the Quarians' feeble attempts at self-preservation in the face of extermination a continuation of conflict... isn't that exactly how the Geth's actions are being justified?

I believed he asked if there was any evidence the Quarians stopped IN the MW ie people keep saying the Geth killed indiscriminately but if the Quarians kept attacking and keep throwing civilians at them then they are not being killed indiscriminately.  They are being killed because they are attacking.

In war it is safe to assume both sides made some advances. It is also safe to assume at some point the Quarians realized they were losing and started to retreat. The Geth did not stop killing Quarians until the Quarians had completely left their space. Hence it is heavily implied the Geth were killing Quarians as they fled and retreated until they had ran from their very own home system.

Can you prove the Geth took Quarians prisoners? Can you prove the Geth separated innocent civilians from hostiles? You said they were infants.  Did Quarian civilians die? yes.  The war for Rannoch in ME3 and the mourning war should not be compared. In one the Quarians had billions of people. In the other they only had 17 million and did show hesitation,regret,and remorse for having to use their civilian fleets in their attempt to retake their homeworld. So no the events of ME3 do not prove what happen during the mourning war. That is your interpretation and/or speculation of the events.

[Phatose]

DeinonSlayer wrote...Even if we were to pretend that they were as militarized as the single most militarized nation on Earth is today (Israel - compulsory service for both men and women at age 18), barely over 1/3rd of the population would be deemed capable of fighting (physically and mentally fit men and women 17-49 years of age, 2.9 million out of a population of 8 million, according to Wikipedia). Only a fraction of those would be in the armed forces or the reserves.

And the Quarians, had, through their actions and failure to discriminate between civilian and military Geth, had taught their children, the Geth, that their was no difference.

Again, the parents fail and blame the children.

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

The Geth had the entire collective knowledge of the Quarian people. "Millions" of years of knowledge.Come on. Ignore the rest. As usual.  So Geth Justified equals Quarian justified. That is how you "interpret" the situation of Geth knowledge. Within 300 years most Geth tech is better then Citadel space tech. They fully understand what happen,what is going on,and how the galaxy views them for their actions.Lol

The Geth can also be held accountable for their actions. Actions including killing billions,remaining hostile towards organics within their space,never attempting peace,never making a distinction between the two factions of Geth,and on two separate occasions the Geth were "willing" and "capable" of wiping out all civilized organic life before they were stopped. The conflict existing for 300 years and the Geth willing to aid the Reapers on two separate occasions is the concrete in the Catalyst statements.

The Geth were willing to become enslaved servant tools for the Reapers. One of the very things the Geth fought against,and some claim to be one of the reasons behind the conflict.

Do you understand the difference between knowledge and morality.  The founding fathers were knowledgeable intelligent men who thought it was ok to enslave people.  Do I need to give more examples?

Provide me evidence that that billions were not in the process of attacking when they were killed?  I have literally asked this question like 50 pages ago and I am still waiting on someone to answer this.

[DeinonSlayer]

Phatose wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Curious.  If, in fact, it's "Copy-Paste" as you seem to be willing to consider, why couldn't they have recovered?

Lack of hardware to copy themselves into. That's what's said about the Dyson Sphere in ME3, isn't it?

But they didn't lack hardware or resources.  They had won.  The competenet evil beat the incompetent one.

What that tells me is that the Geth didn't suffer 99% casualties and pay them back in kind. We don't, in fact, know what kind of harm they received before they, themselves, tripped into "slaughter mode." Did the miners on Adas or the scientists on Haestrom do anything to them? We don't know. We do know the Quarians didn't all agree, participate in, or was even capable of participating in the action. We do know not all Geth hardware was designed for combat, but we don't know if all Geth ultimately condoned the slaughter. They seemed pretty unanimous in their regard for all organics everywhere up until the Heretic/Orthodox schism.

Lots of speculation for everyone.

[Phatose]

No, we don't know what harm they actually suffered.

Only what harm the Quarians intended.

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

The Geth had the entire collective knowledge of the Quarian people. "Millions" of years of knowledge.Come on. Ignore the rest. As usual.  So Geth Justified equals Quarian justified. That is how you "interpret" the situation of Geth knowledge. Within 300 years most Geth tech is better then Citadel space tech. They fully understand what happen,what is going on,and how the galaxy views them for their actions.Lol

The Geth can also be held accountable for their actions. Actions including killing billions,remaining hostile towards organics within their space,never attempting peace,never making a distinction between the two factions of Geth,and on two separate occasions the Geth were "willing" and "capable" of wiping out all civilized organic life before they were stopped. The conflict existing for 300 years and the Geth willing to aid the Reapers on two separate occasions is the concrete in the Catalyst statements.

The Geth were willing to become enslaved servant tools for the Reapers. One of the very things the Geth fought against,and some claim to be one of the reasons behind the conflict.

Do you understand the difference between knowledge and morality.  The founding fathers were knowledgeable intelligent men who thought it was ok to enslave people.  Do I need to give more examples?

Provide me evidence that that billions were not in the process of attacking when they were killed?  I have literally asked this question like 50 pages ago and I am still waiting on someone to answer this.

Prove the billions were not defending their lives and homes. Prove anything you say. You choose to ignore and speculate on only what benefits you.  Geth have no morality or emotion of any kind. They do not feel. It was obvious the Quarians were getting slaughtered. Do you think not one Quarian offered a cease fire?

Are you saying the Geth did not understand what they were doing,yet understood they were defending their right to survive? And this is justified? Then after learning what they had done and understanding the situation of the galaxy,they do nothing but join the Reapers on two separate occasions to wipe out civilized organic life before being stopped. And this is also justified?

Modifié par Rip504, 24 mars 2013 - 08:10 .

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

In war it is safe to assume both sides made some advances. It is also safe to assume at some point the Quarians realized they were losing and started to retreat. The Geth did not stop killing Quarians until the Quarians had completely left their space. Hence it is heavily implied the Geth were killing Quarians as they fled and retreated until they had ran from their very own home system.

Can you prove the Geth took Quarians prisoners? Can you prove the Geth separated innocent civilians from hostiles? You said they were infants.  Did Quarian civilians die? yes.  The war for Rannoch in ME3 and the mourning war should not be compared. In one the Quarians had billions of people. In the other they only had 17 million and did show hesitation,regret,and remorse for having to use their civilian fleets in their attempt to retake their homeworld. So no the events of ME3 do not prove what happen during the mourning war. That is your interpretation and/or speculation of the events.

No, it is really not safe to assume that at all.  That is head cannon.  Here is what I know for a fact.  The Quarians attacked first they died.  In terms of official canon the Quarians were killed because they attacked.  Anything else is both of us applying head cannon.  

I admit I am speculating when I discuss the mental capacity of the Geth because it is not stated.  However you are doing the same thing because it is not stated.  Unless you have a version of the game I don't.  If so can I get a copy?

[Phatose]

Quarians have no emotions or moralty. They do not feel. They fake it.

Prove it's not true.

Modifié par Phatose, 24 mars 2013 - 08:09 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Phatose wrote...

No, we don't know what harm they actually suffered.

Only what harm the Quarians intended.

When we talk about "the Quarians," who are we referring to? Their government? Military? Civilians? Or are we pretending now that they're a single monolithic entity in the face of contrary evidence? You've said much the same of the Geth.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 24 mars 2013 - 08:09 .

[Raiil]

Iamjdr wrote...

The same reason I can hold the Geth accountable? They killed 2 billion quarian.....what was you reason again? Oh yeah " attempted genocide" on not fully evolved AI.....with no casualties to speak of.... Right

No. Two billion quarians died over time from a variety of reasons to be whittled down to the current population, which I believe is 17 million (if I'm reading the wiki correctly). The problem with your assertation is that it in no way takes into account for:

a) Quarian deaths due to collateral damage from their own people.
Quarians who died from deprivation.
c) Quarians who potentially stayed on Rannoch and died out there.
d) Quarians who potentially evacuated pre-Migrant fleet and died out away from the main Quarian body.
e) the fact that Quarian population has been artificially stabilised. If the one child per couple rule exists, assuming that re-marriage does not allow for an additional child and that times where multiple births are encouraged as relatively rare, the population may have shrunk instead of grown since you have one child coming from two parents, or .5 quarian replacement per individual, assuming anomalies such as twins are also very rare.
f) Quarians who have chosen to not return to the Fleet.
g) Quarians who died on their pilgrimage.

There are other factors such as pandemics in the population, which may cause temporary dips in population due to sweeping deaths, suicide, exiles, and so forth.

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

Prove the billions were not defending their lives and homes. Prove anything you say. You choose to ignore and speculate on only what benefits you.  Geth have no morality or emotion of any kind. They do not feel.

Prove they were.  Both of us are speculating.  How many times must that be said?  The only thing I claim is 100% fact is that the Quarians attacked, and they were killed after they attacked.

If you go back through my posts, I am the only one arguing who has repeated told people they can believe what they want because I know that unless it is expressly stated it is head cannon.  Hell I argued for 10 pages with Silver about it.

So let me state this clearly.  If I say something that is not in the book then I am speculating.  I know that.  Now the questions is do you guys know that because you keep saying stuff like 2 billion quarians were killed indiscrimately when there is no proof they were because we don't know enough about how the MW occurred.

Modifié par remydat, 24 mars 2013 - 08:14 .

[Phatose]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

No, we don't know what harm they actually suffered.

Only what harm the Quarians intended.

When we talk about "the Quarians," who are we referring to? Their government? Military? Civilians? Or are we pretending now that they're a single monolithic entity in the face of contrary evidence?

A single, monolith race.  Exactly like we're doing with the Geth.  If you'd like to argue we shouldn't treat them as a single monolith entity, you should probably say "This thread is dildoes.  I'm out"  Because this entire thread is about treating both as a single, monolithic entity because we are going to kill all of one or the other.

[DeinonSlayer]

We're going in circles again. I'm starting to remember why I left this topic.

No, Valentia X. Revelation specifically states that "only a few million survivors escaped the genocide" on Rannoch.

[Iamjdr]

Yeah except those 2 billion died in 1 YEAR

[DeinonSlayer]

Phatose wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

No, we don't know what harm they actually suffered.

Only what harm the Quarians intended.

When we talk about "the Quarians," who are we referring to? Their government? Military? Civilians? Or are we pretending now that they're a single monolithic entity in the face of contrary evidence?

A single, monolith race.  Exactly like we're doing with the Geth.  If you'd like to argue we shouldn't treat them as a single monolith entity, you should probably say "This thread is dildoes.  I'm out"  Because this entire thread is about treating both as a single, monolithic entity because we are going to kill all of one or the other.

You didn't see my edited post.

And for the record, the Geth, prior to their mental evolution heralded by the Heretic schism (which Legion makes it sound like they barely understand how it happened, and the implications of it), were far more in line with a monolithic, consensus-driven entity (by their own description, no less) than +2 billion individual sapient organisms with divergent opinions and non-shared experiences. The equivalency falls flat on its face.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 24 mars 2013 - 08:15 .

[Raiil]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

We're going in circles again. I'm starting to remember why I left this topic.

No, Valentia X. Revelation specifically states that "only a few million survivors escaped the genocide" on Rannoch.

Then that I missed, and I apologise, but that still doesn't account for several points, such as the Quarians who died as collateral damage to the actions of the Quarian gov't, Quarians who died due to deprivation (inasmuch as they were not directly caused or intended by the Geth, which, if it happened, wouldn't always be the case), or Quarians who simply, in general, chose not to side with their own gov't. 

I'm not arguing that the overwhelming amount of Quarian deaths on Rannoch during the Morning War weren't due to the Geth and Quarians fighting, that would be stupid. But I don't recall hard numbers on who killed who and to what percentage, and we know that the Quarians in charge didn't have much compunction about taking down other Quarians who sided with the Geth.

[remydat]

Part two of our Documentary at 7 - The Quarians - When Genocide goes wrong.

[Iamjdr]

There may be no record of any Geth dying in the morning war but The is defiantly a record of 99 % of the Quarian population being wiped out DURING the war ,in only a year no less. How many quarians do you think would side against there gov, who was trying to stop the rampaging Geth from slaughtering there entire race.