4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Iamjdr]

Remy you can yell that the quarian people all agreed to attempt genocide on the Geth till your blue in the face but that won't make it true. Show me one peice if evidence that shows the Quarian people united against the Geth or that they made any attempt to commit act of violence as a united people against the geth before me3. Nothing?hmmm, Here this might be easier, show me something that shows that even half that Quarian population knew that the Geth were even becoming sentient during the morning war. it's okay I'll wait.....No? Still nothing? danm so we got no proof the quarians acted as a united people against the Geth, no proof of geth lose of life, no proof that the Quarian public has knowledge that the Geth were becoming sentient or that they even knew there was any kind of problem with the Geth at all. Doesn't sound like very strong basis for "self defense " on such a large sale.

[TBLKNIGHT]

If I had to make the call I'd pick the Geth. They were only acting in defense when the quarians attacked them.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

remydat You know you don't need to censor "damn" right?

It looks silly.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 24 mars 2013 - 09:01 .

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...



Oh give me a break dude.

You are basing your side on"the Quarians attacked first" and ignoring anything else. Lol give you a break? Nah,give me a break.
 Also I am not attacking your personal opinion,or trying to offend you in any way. I respect that you feel strongly in your opinion and I believe you should. As this entire discussion is based on opinions and not being right nor wrong.

Modifié par Rip504, 24 mars 2013 - 09:04 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

WHAT?! What about Adas? You know, the peacefull mining colony that had no military presance, that was slaughtered on the way to attack Rannoch for no other reason then being in the pathway? A slaughter so brutal, the quarians named a weapon after it? (Adas Anti-Synthetic rifle).
And self-defense applies to military. If you shoot a man who is armed and shooting you with the intent to kill, THAT'S self-defense. If you take an assault rifle and mow down everyone in in the line of sight, woman and childeren included, THAT'S the DEFINITION of indiscriminanate killing. HOW exaxctally do you see the death of 2 billion civilian men, woman, and children, as NOT being indiscriminanate killing? Especally since the geth continued to attack when the quarians were already beaten. They had already lost most of their worlds. They had no fight left in them. Their economy was ruined. Their military broken. Thei government in chaos. They were already beat LONG BEFORE the geth launched their siege of the Tikkun system. There was NO REASON to attack Rannoch at the end of the war. Yet the geth did. They attacked an enemy that was already beaten, broken, blooded, and unable to retaliate. Yet they DID.
Also, I'm pretty sure killing anything that enters your bordrers, especally unarmed peace envoys, counts as indiscriminate killing as well. So does the attempted destruction of all life as we know it. (Heretic's attack, which the geth never bothered to say wasn't supported by them.)
You have Absolutly NO idea of what genocide means, OR what indiscriminate killing means. ONCE again, you show blatent favortisim and prejudice. The geth became the agressors somewhere along the line. THEY started killing everything in their path. You scanction genocide as long as it's of ORGANICS, then? Or just if it's in "self-defense?" You really think that if a man tried to kill you, that it gives you the right to shoot his family, friends, neighbors, and aquantiances? Bucthering everyone you see doesn't strike you as being indiscriminate killing?
You refuse to acknowladge that the geth have just as much innocant blood on their hands. No one was disputing that the geth were attacked first. What they WERE disputing is that mass murder is acceptible, and that you think it's O.K. to mow down crowds of people, just because ONE in the crowd attacked you. That it's ok to kill billions for an order that was done by just under several thousand, in an act of desperation that was don FOR said people's safety against a group that was going to attack you anyway. To murder entire cities - entire planets - for a few agressors. THAT is slaughter. No less slaughter then how the Reapers target anything and everything, regrardless of being shot at or not.

And did you miss the part about the geth being able to orginize complex counterattacks and stratigic assaults? Or how they had access to every information source avalible at the time? Or how they diliberately wiped out the quarians ancestroal archives when there was no reason to, other then the fact that it would demoralize the quarians with the complete and utter destruction of their histrory? THAT wasn't a priority target. If what you say is true, the geth would not have gone out of their way to erase the quarian's culture like that. That requires maliace, and an intent to knowingly inflict harm on their culture and will. So YOU don't BS ME about geth innocance and being "children doing something they didn't understand." Going out of their way to obliterate the quarians culture and soicaty constitutes as mass murder and willing partisipation and perpetuatation of conflict.

And AGAIN, you are unable to make a debate without dragging things like gang rape into this? What the HELL is wrong with you, bringing that in here? AGAIN.
Wasn't it agreed that we were NOT to use such things in these discussions, as that's sensitive territory best left untouched. The fact that you have no sense of this, or even any tact on this matter just supports that you are in no position to be lecturing anyone on morals and genocide, as you

Look what @Rip504 said as well. HOW can you be so blinded to the fact that the geth are NOT these poor, pitiful abused cherubs that you keep headcannoning yourself into thinking they are? There is a difference between self-defense and mass murder. The geth crossed the line at some point. They were justified in defending against the people shooting them. They were NOT justified in butchering anyone that happened to be in the way, OR in going out of the way to attack clear non-military targets for the sake of overzelousness (Adas mining colony massicared for no reason other then being a quarian world. When the targets are attacked for simply being quarian, that's when the geth crossed the line in the war).
And yes the quarians attempted genocide (for the sake of making sure their culture wouldn't be destroyed by the Council's wrath), but you act like full genocide justifies attempted genocide. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." You CANNOT bash the quarians for a sin caused in desperation, then support the geth for the SAME THING. They BOTH enacted the same sin out of desperation and justifiable reasons.

Adas[/b] is marginally warmer than Rannoch despite being further from its sun. Volcanic activity spews methane into Adas's atmosphere, and this haze retains heat in a greenhouse effect. Historically, the quarians used the geth to mine the planet, and when the geth rebelled, the small quarian population on and around Adas was quickly overrun.

I have no idea from the above what happened.  If the miners tried to shut down the geth and the geth rebelled and logged them off the extranet then those are the breaks. 

Cities getting bombed during war.  Women and children die.  We have nothing to prove Geth pointed a gun at a child and pulled the trigger.  If killing children with bombs is wrong then just about every country with fighter planes are guilty of that.

And off course the Geth are not pitiful.  They logged off 2 billion Quarians from the extranet.  That doesn't change who attacked first.  They is nothing ok with it.  War is tragic and regrettable but that is why you should go around trying to shut things down that can log you off.

You MISSED the point. Unarmed miners. NOT soldiers. And AGAIN, the rebellion wasn't instantianious. And the fact that the miners were overrun so quickly and massicared is PROOF that the geth cared less about civilian casualties.

And AGAIN. 2.1 billion. All dead. How much of the population do you think could POSSIBLY have been military forces?  Putting a gun to a child's head and pulling the trigger is EXACTALLY what the geth did verbatium. And did so en masse. And AGAIN, that's the POINT. At that stage, it's NOT war, it's willing participation of conflict. And AGAIN, coordinated and precice counterattacks? And it's spicifically stated that the geth overwhelmed the quarians in weight of bodies. Sheer numbers. The geth preferred ground war. Even their War Asset screan lists them as being the most effective and best ground fighting force in existance. They didn't have much in the way of ship-to-ship besides stolen quarian ships (this was before the geth manufactured their own weapons and ships). They were dependant on ground warfare. So NO, it's NOT the same since the geth attacked indiscriminanately. And again, chemical weapons? You don't use those unless you HAVE NO INTENT to spare anyone. The geth knew full well they were butchering people. They just didn't care.

And STOP being such a ******. The death of quarians and geth is "death" regardless. "Murder" regardless. Your BS about "logging off" is insulting to people on BOTH sides, as you take genocide and mass slaughter so lightly. It makes you come off as even more prejudice then already.

Good grief, don't you sleep?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 24 mars 2013 - 09:13 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

TBLKNIGHT wrote...

If I had to make the call I'd pick the Geth. They were only acting in defense when the quarians attacked them.

Thank you for your sensibility.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

How prejudiced.  There is no reason to be such a smartass about genocide, either way. You disrespect BOTH sides by doing that,
No one KNEW the geth were sapiant till they counterattacked.
It's something that might be sapiant vs something that is confirmed to be sapiant. And with the future of their culture, and the welfare of 2.1 billion, you think the quarians could afforad to let their economy sink for a race that they saw no possible way to save anywhy, as the Council would have rushed in to deactiveate them anywhy.

Oh give me a break dude.  These are fictional characters.  I can make a joke if I d**n well please.  Don't get all emo on me especially after people have been saying the Quarians were just trying to shut the Geth down for like 50 pages.

And I don't care to get into your economic collpase and council guns blazing theories.  I already explained why I don't buy them.  You are free to believe them but I don't and never will.

You can't blame someone for that.
Say your computer is alive, and you kill it by gutting the O.S for a new one. You are completely unaware of it.
The technical term is manslaughter. (causing death without conciously realizeing it).
The quarians had no clue the geth were sapiant.

And AGAIN, I presented proof and refuted every one of your counters, and provided evidence that supports it. You have presented nothing that held up.

[DeinonSlayer]

Phatose wrote...

OK, anyway, I'm curious.

Did any of us...actually accept annihilation of either side?

Last post for me tonight. Seriously.

Anyone who chooses Destroy can safely be said to accept the annihilation of the Geth. I have to metagame that the Reaper code won't corrupt the Geth, IFF-style, to even consider it, but when the option is available I make peace. If I can't make peace, I side with the Quarians.

The thread is about who we'd side with if we couldn't make peace. Both sides have strengths and disadvantages in terms of what kind of support they could offer to other races. Geth are good at combat, Quarians are good at logistics. Quarians aren't as good at combat, Geth aren't as good at logistics. WA strength is contingent on what was done with the heretics. Provided one sees both sides as equals (and not all do - some see Geth as nonliving, some just hate Quarians), it comes down to who people trust and why.

[silverexile17s]

Valentia X wrote...

a) Do you mean <-- 8:40? Because I didn't see/here Legion confirming anything about it being pre-Morning War, only that the events happened post martial law enforcement.
Pure speculation.
c) Tali is telling you what she knows. I am not stating she's a liar. I am saying she is telling you the information that she was taught.
d) Again, speculation.
e) Uh, I never said it was pre-War. I was stating CLEARLY that one of the reasons why the population was currently holding at 17 million and seems so small is because of reproductive control being tightly maintained. I also discussed in another post where someone mentioned that Retribution gave more stable numbers, to which I retracted my statement on that level.
f/g) See above. I was referring solely to post-Morning War population, was corrected, and have responded accordingly. If you're going to try to call me out on numbers, please actually read the entire post, because I made it clear that I was comparing/contrasting pre-Morning War and current Quarian populations, not pre-War and immediately post-War populations. Thank you.

And yes, I am stating that 2.1 billion died due to a multitude of factors. Can you please cite one major, prolonged (and a year is prolonged fighting) conflict where there is only one factor that caused deaths in the war?

a) ME wiki has confirmation that states the events pre-dated the Morning War. Sorry
Yours or Mine? Because Tali's comments about "the geth never learned to take prisoners" is pretty deffinanate. As that "the last survivors fled their homeworld" is that there were no other survivors besides the ones in the Tikkun system.
c) The massive death toll contridicts that. As do the evidence of chemical weapon use - something that would only make sense to use against organics. And those don't leave many survivors, especally when they have naturally weak immune systems.
d) Proof of otherwise? The batarians flooded into Alliance space within days of the Reaper attack. Any quarian survivors would have done the same had they made it out.
e) The fact remians that the quarian population is no larger then it was at the end of the war.
f & g) Ho so? You tried to factor that into Morning War casualties when the tridition was nonexistant till after the War.

Also, why were you trying to compare the two, when causes for modern quarian fatalities souldn't have any bearing on the long-ago Morning War. What is it you are trying to make a point for?

........tired. Will continue in morning.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 24 mars 2013 - 09:14 .

[Phatose]

Oh, I accept that we're all choosing who we'd side with if we couldn't make peace.

I'm just wondering if this thread is a bunch of people who all went well out of their way to make damn sure they wouldn't need to choose if the Geth or the Quarians would live arguing about who'd they save if the didn't have that third option.

Mostly because I'm arguing I'd save the Geth before the Quarians, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let either die when I can save both.

[shodiswe]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

OK, anyway, I'm curious.

Did any of us...actually accept annihilation of either side?

Last post for me tonight. Seriously.

Anyone who chooses Destroy can safely be said to accept the annihilation of the Geth. I have to metagame that the Reaper code won't corrupt the Geth, IFF-style, to even consider it, but when the option is available I make peace. If I can't make peace, I side with the Quarians.

The thread is about who we'd side with if we couldn't make peace. Both sides have strengths and disadvantages in terms of what kind of support they could offer to other races. Geth are good at combat, Quarians are good at logistics. Quarians aren't as good at combat, Geth aren't as good at logistics. WA strength is contingent on what was done with the heretics. Provided one sees both sides as equals (and not all do - some see Geth as nonliving, some just hate Quarians), it comes down to who people trust and why.

The Reaper code didn't change Legion in a bad way, that's enough for me.
I consider the Reapercode a driver update. Like updating your gfx drivers to improve performance. It wont change the experience in any other way than reducing lag and freeing resources for other things.
The Reapers have been perfecting their driver coding for maybe a billion years, so that makes sense. There is no need for them to pick up their personality memorybanks because that's the people the Reapers are not their tech.
I consider there to be a difference between the gun's and ships that the reapers taught the galaxy to build and who and what they themselves are. In the end they are doing what they are doing because the Catalyst's programming demands it by order of the Leviathans. It wasn't how the Leviathans immagined it, but they still think it's doing it's job.

Umm.. yeah, console users might not even know what a driver update is...

Modifié par shodiswe, 24 mars 2013 - 09:16 .

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Remy you can yell that the quarian people all agreed to attempt genocide on the Geth till your blue in the face but that won't make it true. Show me one peice if evidence that shows the Quarian people united against the Geth or that they made any attempt to commit act of violence as a united people against the geth before me3. Nothing?hmmm, Here this might be easier, show me something that shows that even half that Quarian population knew that the Geth were even becoming sentient during the morning war. it's okay I'll wait.....No? Still nothing? danm so we got no proof the quarians acted as a united people against the Geth, no proof of geth lose of life, no proof that the Quarian public has knowledge that the Geth were becoming sentient or that they even knew there was any kind of problem with the Geth at all. Doesn't sound like very strong basis for "self defense " on such a large sale.

This is silly.  When I say the Quarians attacked, I am not claiming that 100% of them supported the attack.  I am referring to the Quarians as a nation.

No one believes that when America attacked Iraq that 100% of Americas supported it.  Does that mean people don't say America or the U.S. attacked?  

[remydat]

Phatose wrote...

Oh, I accept that we're all choosing who we'd side with if we couldn't make peace.

I'm just wondering if this thread is a bunch of people who all went well out of their way to make damn sure they wouldn't need to choose if the Geth or the Quarians would live arguing about who'd they save if the didn't have that third option.

Mostly because I'm arguing I'd save the Geth before the Quarians, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let either die when I can save both.

I choose peace and Tali is my main love interest.  So yes I think it is basically 85 pages of people arguing over a decision they actually would not make, lol.

The only time I choose the destruction of either side was so I could see what happens.  It was a new ME3 game so didn't I had no choice but to save and after see both scenes, I pretty much deleted that whole career as it just felt wrong continuing it.

I will say having Tali jump off the cliff and busting a cap in Legion's a** were two of the most dramatic parts of the game for me.  Especially Tali's when you run and there is that paragon interrupt because I actually thought for a second I would catch heer

[Rip504]

Shepard degrades Kai Lang for using Reaper Tech. Kai Leng replies we evolve or we die. Yet is the enemy, For obvious reasons. The Geth also use Reaper Tech,in which they either evolve using Reaper Tech or die.

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

Shepard degrades Kai Lang for using Reaper Tech. Kai Leng replies we evolve or we die. Yet is the enemy, For obvious reasons. The Geth also use Reaper Tech,in which they either evolve using Reaper Tech or die.

Criminals use guns to kill.  Must mean police shouldn't. That's basically your argument.  Because a bad and clearly indoctrinated person uses something, must mean it is bad.  Umm, no.  It just means that people are different.  

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Shepard degrades Kai Lang for using Reaper Tech. Kai Leng replies we evolve or we die. Yet is the enemy, For obvious reasons. The Geth also use Reaper Tech,in which they either evolve using Reaper Tech or die.

Criminals use guns to kill.  Must mean police shouldn't. That's basically your argument.  Because a bad and clearly indoctrinated person uses something, must mean it is bad.  Umm, no.  It just means that people are different.  

Lol No,that is your horribly mistaken interpretation of my comment.
 I no longer wish to hold a discussion with you,as you have left 90% of my questions towards you unanswered.

[Iamjdr]

So you not claiming that the quarians all agreed on it but you will claim that they made a knowing attempt on the Geths lives and they deserve what they got for there " attempted genocide" on the Geth which you have not yet proven has ever even taken place or that it was even discussed by the Quarian people to be an option.

[Rhayak]

In a new article on Eurogamer, Bioware says 59% of users picked the Geth.

Apparently there is still hope for humanity's humanity.

[S.A.K]

Rhayak wrote...

In a new article on Eurogamer, Bioware says 59% of users picked the Geth.

Apparently there is still hope for humanity's humanity.

According to PAX, that is 37%. You got a link to that article?
Anyway, this is a bit scary. 59% would pick a machine over a living being? Damn! I wonder what would happen if the terminator thing really happened.

[Rhayak]

S.A.K wrote...

According to PAX, that is 37%. You got a link to that article?
Anyway, this is a bit scary. 59% would pick a machine over a living being? Damn! I wonder what would happen if the terminator thing really happened.

http://www.eurogamer...yable-character

(Bottom of article)

The Geth ARE living beings. EDI is a living being. So are the Reapers, the Transformers, the Replicants, Major Kusanagi nd Robin Williams as the Bicentennal Man.


Lemme ask you this:

Would you save R2D2, or Jar Jar Binks?

Ha! Cheap shot

Modifié par Rhayak, 24 mars 2013 - 12:26 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

Rhayak wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

According to PAX, that is 37%. You got a link to that article?
Anyway, this is a bit scary. 59% would pick a machine over a living being? Damn! I wonder what would happen if the terminator thing really happened.

http://www.eurogamer...yable-character

(Bottom of article)

The Geth ARE living beings. EDI is a living being. So are the Reapers, the Transformers, the Replicants, Major Kusanagi nd Robin Williams as the Bicentennal Man.


Lemme ask you this:

Would you save R2D2, or Jar Jar Binks?

Ha! Cheap shot

R2D2 by FAR.

Also, bringing up BiCentennial Man didn't help you too much.

[Rhayak]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Also, bringing up BiCentennial Man didn't help you too much.

I kinda wanted my last example to be intentionally goofy.

It's one of those movies i liked despite the rest of the world hating them.

[S.A.K]

^yes I see your point. But in Geth/Quarian case it's not that easy. Both sides have goods and bads almost equally. So I can't choose the machine race instead of organic.

[justafan]

Rhayak wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

According to PAX, that is 37%. You got a link to that article?
Anyway, this is a bit scary. 59% would pick a machine over a living being? Damn! I wonder what would happen if the terminator thing really happened.

http://www.eurogamer...yable-character

(Bottom of article)

The Geth ARE living beings. EDI is a living being. So are the Reapers, the Transformers, the Replicants, Major Kusanagi nd Robin Williams as the Bicentennal Man.


Lemme ask you this:

Would you save R2D2, or Jar Jar Binks?

Ha! Cheap shot

Your original quote was slightly misleading.  The articles didn't say 59% "choose" the Geth, it said 59% "saved" the Geth.  Which is still a little off, since 37% chose Geth,  27% chose Quarians, and 36% made Peace, saving both, according to PAX.  A majority, 73%, saved the Geth (37% detroy Quarians+36% Peace), but a majority also saved the Quarians, 63% (27% Destroy Geth + 36% Peace).  Only 37% actually "chose" the Geth over Quarians.

Modifié par justafan, 24 mars 2013 - 01:31 .

[Rhayak]

justafan wrote...
  Only 37% actually "chose" the Geth over Quarians.

Ouch.

All units retreat.