4712 réponses à ce sujet

[justafan]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

justafan wrote...

remydat wrote...

Commander Shepard is a hero to the Geth so why would I kill him?  My mission is to go back in time and tell the Quarians, "You f**k with us, you die."  So far I have been back 7 times and they failed to listen 7 times. 

This time, I will be going back with power point presentations and videos showing how 2 billion lives were logged off in a few years time.  I am hoping this will prove enlightening to them regarding the consequences of attempted genocide against a more powerful force.  If you have any videos or pictures of little children getting bullets to the head you would like to contribute please PM them to me.

But... it's 2013, you're a little late to the party.  The morning war happened like 150 years ago.

Geez, I thought time travelers were supposed to be punctual.

Time travel is hard!

You probably have a busted flux capacitor, I know a guy in Hill Valley who can fix it up good as new.

Modifié par justafan, 24 mars 2013 - 06:08 .

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

]Think of it like a country developing nuclear weapons. It's a risk to everyone else, as well. We can't pretend it's not a concern. Shepard has to trust that this Reaper code won't exploit the Geth, again, and turn their entire fleet against the rest of the galaxy. The IFF bit us in the ass once after initially appearing innocuous; we know almost nothing about this code.

As I've said, I make peace when I can, but I have to metagame the hell out of it to know the Reaper code won't make the Geth turn around and do what the Rachni Breeder does to us.

I never said it wasn't a concern.  I am saying it is still not really their call to make.  There are plenty of things I have concerns about that ultimately I recognize that despite my concerns, it is not my call.

And the fundamental problem with the nuclear example is it proves my point.  The USA and USSR nave something like thousands of times more nuclear weapons and then go around trying to tell other people nuclear weapons are bad so we will sanction you if you have them.

The point is, it is a means to reinforce the status quo.  The people who got advanced tech first then turn around and cry about the horrors of advanced tech as means to ensure they are the only ones with advanced tech.  Organics are fully sentient and then want to deny synthetics the ability to also become fully sentient.  Organics entire civilization is built on Reaper tech but then want to deny the Geth the ability to use Reaper Tech.

So yes I understand why they are concenred but it is an inherently hypocritical because the things the Geth desire are things organics already have and have no problem using.

I'm really trying not to bring Iran into this.

We're talking about something which fundamentally reshapes the Geth's minds. Something from an extremely questionable source. The only real parallel with nuclear weapons is the idea that it's something dangerous which outsiders are right to be concerned about, and deserve a say in because they, too, are affected, particularly in light of the actions and rhetoric of those acquiring the technology, and those it came from. I like Ron Paul (domestic policy), but his philosophical "hands-off" foreign policy is, IMO, suicidal.

Shepard is allowed to have an opinion about the Reaper code - (s)he can't not, actually. You either actively encourage the upload, or you don't. It's Legion's choice to upload the code if you encourage him or try to kill you if you don't, not yours.

I actually wrote up how, in the "Pinocchio Code" framework we have now, peace could have played out with or without uploading the code. I can share it if anyone is interested.

Edit: bolded

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 24 mars 2013 - 06:51 .

[Iamjdr]

But the Geth have put it in hands so that is irrelevant. If the Geth felt that shep shouldn't be the one to decide their fate then why would they have him choose and not just decide for themselves?

[justafan]

Iamjdr wrote...

But the Geth have put it in hands so that is irrelevant. If the Geth felt that shep shouldn't be the one to decide their fate then why would they have him choose and not just decide for themselves?

The Geth never put it in Shepards hands.  Legion is determined to upload the code no matter what you decide, that is why he tries to kill you when you side against him.

[remydat]

justafan wrote...

But... it's 2013, you're a little late to the party.  The morning war happened like 150 years ago.

Geez, I thought time travelers were supposed to be punctual.

Did you ever watch Terminator which is what Cheesecake was referencing.  John Conner was already born.  Skynet sent someone back to change an event that already happened because that is the point of time travel.

The MW already happened.  That is precisely why I am using time travel to change something that already happenened, lol.

[Iamjdr]

Legion also ASKS shep to allow him to upload the code. He has the ability to do it at anytime when the reaper is dead but he doesn't just upload it, instead he asks permission thus it I in sheps hands.

[remydat]

justafan wrote...

The Geth never put it in Shepards hands.  Legion is determined to upload the code no matter what you decide, that is why he tries to kill you when you side against him.

Maybe if it comes from you he will understand now.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

justafan wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

justafan wrote...

remydat wrote...

Commander Shepard is a hero to the Geth so why would I kill him?  My mission is to go back in time and tell the Quarians, "You f**k with us, you die."  So far I have been back 7 times and they failed to listen 7 times. 

This time, I will be going back with power point presentations and videos showing how 2 billion lives were logged off in a few years time.  I am hoping this will prove enlightening to them regarding the consequences of attempted genocide against a more powerful force.  If you have any videos or pictures of little children getting bullets to the head you would like to contribute please PM them to me.

But... it's 2013, you're a little late to the party.  The morning war happened like 150 years ago.

Geez, I thought time travelers were supposed to be punctual.

Time travel is hard!

You probably have a busted flux capacitor, I know a guy in Hill Valley who can fix it up good as new.

That sounds great.

Sure as feth don't want to get stuck in 1453 again, I've had more than enough run ins with the Ottomans for one lifetime.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Legion also ASKS shep to allow him to upload the code. He has the ability to do it at anytime when the reaper is dead but he doesn't just upload it, instead he asks permission thus it I in sheps hands.

I am making a meta argument ie ackowledging this is a fictional game with fictional characters.  The reason why Legion asks (although he disagrees not matter what) is because it is a game.  Shep is the hero so he is involved in the major decisions of the game.  Responding to a meta argument with an in game argument is pointless because they are approaching the topic from two different perspectives.  From a meta perspective characters don't have free will because they are not real.  So asking me why Legion asks Shepard is pointless because Legion didn't ask Shepard from a meta perspective.  The Writer writing the story made him do it.

Now if you want me to explain an in-game reason I already did with the nuclear war example Deneion provided.  The U.S. from a completely objective standpoint has no right to deny another country nuclear power and weapons when they have both.  However, they obtained that power first and have since restricted others from attaining it using their super power status.  So when someone asks the U.S. via the UN if they can use nuclear powers or weapons, they are not doing so because the US from an objective standpoint has the right, they are doing so because the US has the power to impose their will on others and exercises said power.  The act of someone asking them is a reflection of the power imbalance which is why the people with nuclear power or weapons are either their allies or countries who are powerful enough to tell the U.S. f**k off e.g. the U.S.S.R.

Modifié par remydat, 24 mars 2013 - 06:28 .

[justafan]

remydat wrote...

justafan wrote...

But... it's 2013, you're a little late to the party.  The morning war happened like 150 years ago.

Geez, I thought time travelers were supposed to be punctual.

Did you ever watch Terminator which is what Cheesecake was referencing.  John Conner was already born.  Skynet sent someone back to change an event that already happened because that is the point of time travel.

The MW already happened.  That is precisely why I am using time travel to change something that already happenened, lol.

Wow, that was more circular than the catalyst's logic...

But didn't the Terminator go back before John Connor was born to stop him?  So shouldn't you go back before the war?  Just make sure you avoid the Council at all cost.  The Quarians might find you curious before they shoot you, giving you time to explain.  The Council will probably just shoot you.

Modifié par justafan, 24 mars 2013 - 06:28 .

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

Legion also ASKS shep to allow him to upload the code. He has the ability to do it at anytime when the reaper is dead but he doesn't just upload it, instead he asks permission thus it I in sheps hands.

I am making a meta argument ie ackowledging this is a fictional game with fictional characters.  The reason why Legion asks (although he disagrees not matter what) is because it is a game.  Shep is the hero so he is involved in the major decisions of the game.  Responding to a meta argument with an in game argument is pointless because they are approaching the topic from two different perspectives.  From a meta perspective characters don't have free will because they are not real.  So asking me why Legion asks Shepard is pointless because Legion didn't ask Shepard from a meta perspective.  The Writer writing the story made him do it.

Now if you want me to explain an in-game reason I already did with the nuclear war example Deneion provided.  The U.S. from a completely objective standpoint has no right to deny another country nuclear power and weapons when they have both.  However, they obtained that power first and have since restricted others from attaining it using their super power status.  So when someone asks the U.S. via the UN if they can use nuclear powers or weapons, they are not doing so because the US from an objective standpoint has the right, they are doing so because the US has the power to impose their will on others and exercises said power.  The act of someone asking them is a reflection of the power imbalance which is why the people with nuclear power or weapons are either their allies or countries who are powerful enough to tell the U.S. f**k off e.g. the U.S.S.R.

I disagree with a lot of what you said above, but this is spinning way out of the scope of this topic. I already highlighted the relevant portion of the nuke argument above. I'll wait for you to address it.

[remydat]

justafan wrote...

Wow, that was more circular than the catalyst's logic...

But didn't the Terminator go back before John Connor was born to stop him?  So shouldn't you go back before the war?  Just make sure you avoid the Council at all cost.  The Quarians might find you curious before they shoot you, giving you time to explain.  The Council will probably just shoot you.

I am not sure what you are getting at.  I don't see how anyone could read the below and not interpret it as me saying I will be presenting them with information that shows what happens if they attack as a means to prevent them from attacking.  And I said I have been back 7 times arlready trying to convince them.  

remydat wrote...

Commander Shepard is a hero to the Geth so why would I kill him?  My mission is to go back in time and tell the Quarians, "You f**k with us, you die."  So far I have been back 7 times and they failed to listen 7 times. 

This time, I will be going back with power point presentations and videos showing how 2 billion lives were logged off in a few years time.  I am hoping this will prove enlightening to them regarding the consequences of attempted genocide against a more powerful force.  If you have any videos or pictures of little children getting bullets to the head you would like to contribute please PM them to me.

[DeinonSlayer]

I'm questioning the worth of continuing to pursue this topic... lunch is starting to win the argument.

[justafan]

remydat wrote...

justafan wrote...

Wow, that was more circular than the catalyst's logic...

But didn't the Terminator go back before John Connor was born to stop him?  So shouldn't you go back before the war?  Just make sure you avoid the Council at all cost.  The Quarians might find you curious before they shoot you, giving you time to explain.  The Council will probably just shoot you.

I am not sure what you are getting at.  I don't see how anyone could read the below and not interpret it as me saying I will be presenting them with information that shows what happens if they attack as a means to prevent them from attacking.  And I said I have been back 7 times arlready trying to convince them.  

Oh, you mean you're trying to stop the ME3 conflict or the Morning War.  Dude, just go back to the 1800's and stop the Morning War all together.  I'm pointing out you have no reason to even exist at this point in time if you have a time machine, unless you are pulling a Bender from the Futurama movies and stealing valuable works of art.

Modifié par justafan, 24 mars 2013 - 06:42 .

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I disagree with a lot of what you said above, but this is spinning way out of the scope of this topic. I already highlighted the relevant portion of the nuke argument above. I'll wait for you to address it.

Who did the U.S. ask permission from to develop nuclear weapons?  Who did the USSR?  The only countries that ask permission are countries without the power to do what they want.  So no, I don't think any country has a right to tell another what they should do.  Some countries do because they have more power than others.

So no, I don't think it is up to organics to decide how synthetics should develop.  The Geth are not a part of the Council and have not agreed to be governed by them.  Organics are free to express their and I stress this word LEGITIMATE concerns but synthetics are not required to accept that consul from Organics especially in light of the obvious prejudice organics have of synthetics.

[remydat]

justafan wrote...

Oh, you mean you're trying to stop the ME3 conflict or the Morning War.  Dude, just go back to the 1800's and stop the Morning War all together.  I'm pointing out you have no reason to even exist at this point in time if you have a time machine, unless you are pulling a Bender from the Futurama movies and stealing valuable works of art.

I made a joke in response to Cheesecake.  That is all.  Just didn't understand how you saw the example as different from the Terminator one.  Don't watch Futurama and we Geth do not acknowledge the liks of Bender.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I disagree with a lot of what you said above, but this is spinning way out of the scope of this topic. I already highlighted the relevant portion of the nuke argument above. I'll wait for you to address it.

Who did the U.S. ask permission from to develop nuclear weapons?  Who did the USSR?  The only countries that ask permission are countries without the power to do what they want.  So no, I don't think any country has a right to tell another what they should do.  Some countries do because they have more power than others.

So no, I don't think it is up to organics to decide how synthetics should develop.  The Geth are not a part of the Council and have not agreed to be governed by them.  Organics are free to express their and I stress this word LEGITIMATE concerns but synthetics are not required to accept that consul from Organics especially in light of the obvious prejudice organics have of synthetics.

You could have saved time by stating you intend to ignore what I said. I highlighted the relevant portion of the argument. Please read and respond to that post.

Organics have a legitimate concern, and a right to give voice to that concern. Shepard either actively encourages the upload, or doesn't. Uploading the code or attacking Shepard is Legion's choice.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 24 mars 2013 - 06:50 .

[justafan]

remydat wrote...

justafan wrote...

Oh, you mean you're trying to stop the ME3 conflict or the Morning War.  Dude, just go back to the 1800's and stop the Morning War all together.  I'm pointing out you have no reason to even exist at this point in time if you have a time machine, unless you are pulling a Bender from the Futurama movies and stealing valuable works of art.

I made a joke in response to Cheesecake.  That is all.  Just didn't understand how you saw the example as different from the Terminator one.  Don't watch Futurama and we Geth do not acknowledge the liks of Bender.

Your loss, I hear his consensus has blackjack and hookers.

[remydat]

justafan wrote...

Your loss, I hear his consensus has blackjack and hookers.

That bastard has been holding out on us?

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

OK, anyway, I'm curious.

Did any of us...actually accept annihilation of either side?

Last post for me tonight. Seriously.

Anyone who chooses Destroy can safely be said to accept the annihilation of the Geth. I have to metagame that the Reaper code won't corrupt the Geth, IFF-style, to even consider it, but when the option is available I make peace. If I can't make peace, I side with the Quarians.

The thread is about who we'd side with if we couldn't make peace. Both sides have strengths and disadvantages in terms of what kind of support they could offer to other races. Geth are good at combat, Quarians are good at logistics. Quarians aren't as good at combat, Geth aren't as good at logistics. WA strength is contingent on what was done with the heretics. Provided one sees both sides as equals (and not all do - some see Geth as nonliving, some just hate Quarians), it comes down to who people trust and why.

The Reaper code didn't change Legion in a bad way, that's enough for me.
I consider the Reapercode a driver update. Like updating your gfx drivers to improve performance. It wont change the experience in any other way than reducing lag and freeing resources for other things.
The Reapers have been perfecting their driver coding for maybe a billion years, so that makes sense. There is no need for them to pick up their personality memorybanks because that's the people the Reapers are not their tech.
I consider there to be a difference between the gun's and ships that the reapers taught the galaxy to build and who and what they themselves are. In the end they are doing what they are doing because the Catalyst's programming demands it by order of the Leviathans. It wasn't how the Leviathans immagined it, but they still think it's doing it's job.

Umm.. yeah, console users might not even know what a driver update is...

Yeah. An upgrade. Improvement. God knows it worked for Cerberus, right? <_<
Seriously, after what happened with TIM's messing with Reaper "upgrades" you would just trust an entire race with the stuff?. A race that sided with them over other orgnaics twice over?

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

justafan wrote...

Your loss, I hear his consensus has blackjack and hookers.

That bastard has been holding out on us?

That he has.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Shepard degrades Kai Lang for using Reaper Tech. Kai Leng replies we evolve or we die. Yet is the enemy, For obvious reasons. The Geth also use Reaper Tech,in which they either evolve using Reaper Tech or die.

Criminals use guns to kill.  Must mean police shouldn't. That's basically your argument.  Because a bad and clearly indoctrinated person uses something, must mean it is bad.  Umm, no.  It just means that people are different.  

WRONG. The arguement is that you either sacrifice your own future for a controled alternitive at the expense of everyone else, or find your own path.
And going by that, YOU just basically said "submission is preferable to extinction."

[silverexile17s]

Rhayak wrote...

In a new article on Eurogamer, Bioware says 59% of users picked the Geth.

Apparently there is still hope for humanity's humanity.

And half that are noobs that did,t play the other games.
Number has no bearing on this, as the moral behind it is the topic of debate.
Besides, that's only if you add the quarian+geth poll with the geth poll. Not the stand-alone results.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 24 mars 2013 - 07:05 .

[Bill Casey]

Phatose wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

And for the record, the Geth, prior to their mental evolution heralded by the Heretic schism (which Legion makes it sound like they barely understand how it happened, and the implications of it), were far more in line with a monolithic, consensus-driven entity (by their own description, no less) than +2 billion individual sapient organisms with divergent opinions and non-shared experiences. The equivalency falls flat on its face.

Consensus is agreement by most.   Consensus is not hive mind, it's democracy.

Incorrect...
The geth consensus operates by disseminating information until a conclusion is reached, which is shared by all platforms...





Shepard: Do geth have a government?

Legion: Not as you understand. We are all geth. We build consensus.

Shepard: Most governments do.

Legion: Organic governments impose consensus. From a single point of view in autocracies. By codifying the most broadly acceptable average of views in democracies.

Shepard: So what makes the geth different?

Legion: Data is shared between geth. All viewpoints are considered. Consensus is achieved as data is disseminated.

Shepard: That must take a long time.

Legion: It would for organics. We communicate at the speed of light.

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 mars 2013 - 07:01 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

WRONG. The arguement is that you either sacrifice your own future for a controled alternitive at the expense of everyone else, or find your own path.
And going by that, YOU just basically said "submission is preferable to extinction."

Um, don't know what you are talking about.  Kai Leng was indoctrinated.  Someone made a comment about him.  Shepard is not indoctrinated so using Kai Leng as an example makes no sense to me.  Humans are different.  We are not robots.  The f**k ups of Kai Leng or TIM don't necessarily prove anything regarding what Shep should do.