126 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

That's pretty much what they did. The batarians were like dust and then they went straight to Earth.

[Alien Number Six]

The Reapers have crushed the galaxy a thousand times over. Not only are they dicks about it they are good at it.

[Alien Number Six]

If I am the Reaper AI why do I take down the Citidel first when I can watch the galaxy's every move from right underneath their noses?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Yeah, there sure is no reason to keep a fleet back to protect the center and theoretical brain of your society whilst in the middle of a galactic war (and all those guards and heightened security measures in the Citadel itself are just for show). Seems legit.

Apprehending TIM would be a job for C-Sec, not the Citadel fleet.

Their fleet is not going to watchguard for one man identified as a fringe threat during said galactic war.

Saren, OTOH, was destroying colonies in his wake -- much bigger threat than TIM would appear to be.

Also congrats on arguing against yourself. If there's no fleet guarding the Citadel where are all those supposed Reaper casualties gonna come from, mate? Seems to me like you don't need a chain-smoking mole after all if the weakspot is so unguarded.

There is a fleet.

It's just not going to respond to the 1 ship TIM uses to travel there.

Reapers arriving in force... that probably will get their attention.

lol you've made for some interesting debate in the past but this is just hilarious. TIM can **** with two nearly dead dudes, one of which is getting on in years and that makes you think he can solo all of C-Sec?

"Nearly dead," huh?

Can neither of those "nearly dead dudes" aim their weapon accurately, and shoot it? That's literally all it would have taken to kill TIM. And yet, both of them are sitting ducks for him before he even enters the room. So YES, he clearly had the power to take C-Sec by surprise. It could have been foiled, had someone caught on in time, but no one did.

Finito.

We're shown TIM standing right there on the Citadel.

After it's been in Reaper possession for days, maybe even weeks or months (taking into account mustering and travel time for the final battle)

Reaper possession made possible by... ? If they could have recalled it earlier, they would have. They didn't, though.

Something changed for them to regain control (not completely, I hear) of the station.

And all signs point to TIM. Unless, of course, we ignore the evidence.

[CrutchCricket]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Their fleet is not going to watchguard for one man identified as a fringe threat during said galactic war.

Saren, OTOH, was destroying colonies in his wake -- much bigger threat than TIM would appear to be.


There is a fleet.

It's just not going to respond to the 1 ship TIM uses to travel there.

Reapers arriving in force... that probably will get their attention.

Nice redirection. But I'm afraid it won't help. I'm not the one who brought up a fleet, you are.

"But HYR, he got to the Citadel from Ilos through the Conduit!" Saren had to do so because the Council had a fleet outside the Citadel ready to stop his ship. TIM has no such thing in his path, and once he gets on, it's already too late.

...which is irrelevant anyway. Saren didn't use the Conduit because there was a fleet stopping him. He used it because there was no way in hell he could just stroll up to the master control. No one can. Not by stealth, not by conventional force. And between Saren personally getting from point A to point B and TIM doing the same, my money's on Saren every time.

And inb4 "TIM can freeze people with his mind now, Professor X style" as "unconventional force". There is no such evidence and no Anderson and Shepard don't count. More on that below.

"Nearly dead," huh?

Can neither of those "nearly dead dudes" aim their weapon accurately, and shoot it? That's literally all it would have taken to kill TIM. And yet, both of them are sitting ducks for him before he even enters the room. So YES, he clearly had the power to take C-Sec by surprise. It could have been foiled, had someone caught on in time, but no one did.

Finito.

Anderson didn't have a gun out and Shepard was in full derp mode (and the more "nearly dying" of the two). So I'm hardly impressed. In terms of direct combat in that situation I don't rate any of them much higher than say, Conrad Verner.

Reaper possession made possible by... ? If they could have recalled it earlier, they would have. They didn't, though.

Something changed for them to regain control (not completely, I hear) of the station.

And all signs point to TIM. Unless, of course, we ignore the evidence.

Made possible by shifting levels of derp as the plot demands? There is absolutely no reason the Reapers wouldn't reclaim the Citadel as soon as they arrived, apart from "art". There is also nothing that can stop them doing so. I'm surpised that someone so adamant that "they can't be stopped conventionally" keeps going on like this.

TIM did nothing apart from snitching to the Reapers what the organics' plan was. Apparently that's when they decided to stop screwing around and start taking this harvest seriously.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 16 août 2013 - 02:12 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

CrutchCricket wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Their fleet is not going to watchguard for one man identified as a fringe threat during said galactic war.

Saren, OTOH, was destroying colonies in his wake -- much bigger threat than TIM would appear to be.


There is a fleet.

It's just not going to respond to the 1 ship TIM uses to travel there.

Reapers arriving in force... that probably will get their attention.

Nice redirection. But I'm afraid it won't help. I'm not the one who brought up a fleet, you are.

Please do not use words you don't know the meaning of.

"But HYR, he got to the Citadel from Ilos through the Conduit!" Saren had to do so because the Council had a fleet outside the Citadel ready to stop his ship. TIM has no such thing in his path, and once he gets on, it's already too late.

...which is irrelevant anyway. Saren didn't use the Conduit because there was a fleet stopping him. He used it because there was no way in hell he could just stroll up to the master control. No one can. Not by stealth, not by conventional force. And between Saren personally getting from point A to point B and TIM doing the same, my money's on Saren every time.

Actually, nobody even knew what the Conduit was, not even Saren/Sovereign.

So, no, he didn't use it for that reason. That it helped him as it did was merely convenient.

And inb4 "TIM can freeze people with his mind now, Professor X style" as "unconventional force". There is no such evidence and no Anderson and Shepard don't count. More on that below.

"Nearly dead," huh?

Can neither of those "nearly dead dudes" aim their weapon accurately, and shoot it? That's literally all it would have taken to kill TIM. And yet, both of them are sitting ducks for him before he even enters the room. So YES, he clearly had the power to take C-Sec by surprise. It could have been foiled, had someone caught on in time, but no one did.

Finito.

Anderson didn't have a gun out and Shepard was in full derp mode (and the more "nearly dying" of the two). So I'm hardly impressed. In terms of direct combat in that situation I don't rate any of them much higher than say, Conrad Verner.

So what would change if Shepard and Anderson were actually at full health instead of being so badly injured?

Answer: nothing! It would go exactly the same, as TIM would have them under control and ready to be executed.

Granted TIM doesn't fall victim to Shepard's silver tongue, he can kill him and kill Anderson. Given that, I don't buy that a few doormen in his path will stop him. Hell, he could have even brought a couple of his indoc'd minions with him. Not impossible.

Point is, 'man found a way to get there. Thems the facts.

Made possible by shifting levels of derp as the plot demands? There is absolutely no reason the Reapers wouldn't reclaim the Citadel as soon as they arrived, apart from "art".

SMH. Anti-enders just don't get it. And this is why it's pointless to talk to one.

So the end of ME3 didn't spell it all out to us clearly. Guess what? That happens a lot in stories. It may be the mark of a great writer, one who gets the point across without painting things so black-and-white. It may be the mark of a bad writer, one who fails to get the point across because events become too confusing in that moment. Which one is it here? Doesn't matter -- the audience/reader has to make sense of what's been put forward. Anti-enders refuse this practice. It's against their religion, because it means one less thing to rail the ending over. They'll never accept this, but it's the truth.

Funny thing, though: some things in ME3 actually do make sense... if you make sense of them. Not everything in and about it is just Bad Writing™. Too bad when you try to put forward any sensible explanation of ME3 forward to an anti-ender, they'll not only dismiss it, but dimiss the notion that any sense can be made of whatever the topic at hand may be (never mind the fact you actually have an explanation that makes sense and does not contradict what we are told). And that again is because: (1) hating ME3 is their religion and they don't accept 1 less reason to hate it; (2) they just don't get it -- if someone has put forward a sensible interpretation of story event and you don't have a better one, then you're just being a fool to reject it. You're purposely choosing stupidity over sense.

And that's why I lend 0 credence to their ideas at all. Anti-enders' positions all rest on (1) "sounds like"-nonsense, and; (2) Bad Writing™. And I'd accept #2, but anti-enders have used it as a crutch not to even think, just bash senselessly, even when the answers are right there to be found in the story (and that they have learned well from their master... smudboy!!)

There is also nothing that can stop them doing so. I'm surpised that someone so adamant that "they can't be stopped conventionally" keeps going on like this.

It's not a question of can/can't. It's about want (I believe I've had this discussion with you before).

Again, they can endlessly throw indoctrinated minions like TIM at it, and it's not a big loss at all if/when they are stopped. Thralls are easy to get, and not inherently valuable -- they are expendable. Reaper ships themselves are not expendable. Losing 1 is devastating, and must be avoided unless absolutely necessary. Why? Because that's the entire point of what they're doing -- harvesting civilizations. You can replace a lost thrall. You cannot replace a lost civilization.

And given that the Reapers don't believe they're going to lose anyway (until they hear of the Crucible project), they have no reason to hurry and take the Citadel. Just keep throwing indoctrinated minions at it 'til it works (and it did, ala TIM).

They can take the Citadel in force. They don't want to. And they don't need to, if they think they're going to win anyway without losing as many ships. So they waited 'til a thrall (TIM) got it back into their control without sacrificing any.

[AlanC9]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Actually, nobody even knew what the Conduit was, not even Saren/Sovereign.
 .

You sure about this part? I imagine Sovereign had a pretty good guess, since something had gone wrong on the Citadel which had supposedly been seized and secured.

[CynicalShep]

I'd come, reap everyone and leave. No indoctrinating agents drama or pompous speeches delivered to Shepards.

[CrutchCricket]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Please do not use words you don't know the meaning of.

Hmm, you're right, perhaps I did use the wrong word. What's the term for bringing up something your opponent made no reference to and then arguing against it? Oh yeah, strawman.

Let's go with that.

Actually, nobody even knew what the Conduit was, not even Saren/Sovereign.

So, no, he didn't use it for that reason. That it helped him as it did was merely convenient.

You're ****ing with me, right? The entire point of the antagonist's quest, hell making it the entire point of our quest as well and it's "merely convenient"? Please.

Even if I go with it for the sake of argument, it still doesn't help you. If Saren doesn't know what it does but assumes like us that it's a massive weapon, then it still proves that he needs some ridiculous advantage on his side to even get close to the Citadel. He needs the Reapers or some other giant weapon to wipe out the fleet, so he can land his entire army of geth on the station and from there, do what he needs done. One guy isn't getting in, no matter how much he's pimped his ride, get it?

So what would change if Shepard and Anderson were actually at full health instead of being so badly injured?

Answer: nothing! It would go exactly the same, as TIM would have them under control and ready to be executed.

Speculation. You have no idea what he can do to anyone at full health with hostile intent., much less how different species might react/have resistances.

Again, even if I humor you, screwing with two guys vs an entire defense force=no comparison.

Oh and if there's even one Loki mech, game over. Yes, that's right. Those things that practically kill themselves would just shoot him in the face.

Point is, 'man found a way to get there. Thems the facts.

Any idiot can get to the station. But he has no chance of getting near anything important. None. Once the Reapers attack it doesn't matter anymore. Hell maybe he was even sent in as a distraction (though again the Reapers resorting to such tactics is nonsense)

Doesn't matter -- the audience/reader has to make sense of what's been put forward. Anti-enders refuse this practice. It's against their religion, because it means one less thing to rail the ending over. They'll never accept this, but it's the truth.

Not if you have to do Olympic-level mental cartwheels to do so. You can trick yourself into believing the Room makes sense if you really want to. Does that make it good? Answer is a resounding "**** no"

Too bad when you try to put forward any sensible explanation of ME3 forward to an anti-ender, they'll not only dismiss it, but dimiss the notion that any sense can be made of whatever the topic at hand may be

You have yet to provide a sensible explanation on this topic. And notice that going on a unrelated rant about "anti-enders" isn't doing you any good.

Anti-enders' positions all rest on (1) "sounds like"-nonsense, and; (2) Bad Writing™. And I'd accept #2, but anti-enders have used it as a crutch not to even think, just bash senselessly, even when the answers are right there to be found in the story (and that they have learned well from their master... smudboy!!)

1. It is nonsense
2. So you now just as senselessy refuse their arguments because of associations only true in your head? Good to know. Hint: I've never actually seen smudboy's vids. Independently coming to similar concluions based on logic? Shocking.

It's not a question of can/can't. It's about want (I believe I've had this discussion with you before).

"Desire is irrelevant. I am a machine"- Terminator 3 (excuse the bad reference)

Again, they can endlessly throw indoctrinated minions like TIM at it, and it's not a big loss at all if/when they are stopped. Thralls are easy to get, and not inherently valuable -- they are expendable. Reaper ships themselves are not expendable. Losing 1 is devastating, and must be avoided unless absolutely necessary. Why? Because that's the entire point of what they're doing -- harvesting civilizations. You can replace a lost thrall. You cannot replace a lost civilization.

You also argued that single Reaper ships can be brought down with enough firepower but together they are invincible. So attacking together=...dead Reapers?

Please. It took everything we had to destroy one Reaper. And even it had backup (geth fleet) Now imagine ALL the Reapers vs Citadel fleet. It's a joke.

Reapers wouldn't have lost a damn thing. And while I'm not sure on the timeline just now, they could likely have geth reinforcements as well (after they make the deal)

And given that the Reapers don't believe they're going to lose anyway (until they hear of the Crucible project), they have no reason to hurry and take the Citadel. Just keep throwing indoctrinated minions at it 'til it works (and it did, ala TIM).

They can take the Citadel in force. They don't want to. And they don't need to, if they think they're going to win anyway without losing as many ships. So they waited 'til a thrall (TIM) got it back into their control without sacrificing any.

I'd buy the overconfidence thing if this were Palpatine at the end of Jedi. It's not. It's machines (killbots as of ME3) that only do what they're programmed to do in the most efficient matter. This does not hold.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 16 août 2013 - 12:06 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

[quote]CrutchCricket wrote...

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...
Please do not use words you don't know the meaning of.[/quote]
Hmm, you're right, perhaps I did use the wrong word. What's the term for bringing up something your opponent made no reference to and then arguing against it? Oh yeah, strawman.[/quote]

I'm sorry. I guess I should have also said: please do not use words that you do not know how to apply correctly.


[quote]You're ****ing with me, right? The entire point of the antagonist's quest, hell making it the entire point of our quest as well and it's "merely convenient"? Please.[/quote]

No, I'm not ****ing with you. If you can show me anything to indicate that anyone knew what the Conduit was in ME1 before actually getting there and finding out on Ilose, I'll eat my crow. If not, you'll just have to concede that point.


[quote][quote]So what would change if Shepard and Anderson were actually at full health instead of being so badly injured?

Answer: nothing! It would go exactly the same, as TIM would have them under control and ready to be executed.[/quote]Speculation. You have no idea what he can do to anyone at full health with hostile intent., much less how different species might react/have resistances.[/quote]

TIM's power is nothing more than glorified Reaper-indoctrination, which works across species and organics have no known immunity to it (health surely isn't it, seeing as plenty of completely-healthy people have fallen victim to it).

Again, all Shepard or Anderson had to do was point their gun at him and shoot to kill him, and even in their injured states either one of them could have easily done that if they were not stopped. What stopped them? All evidence points to one thing. And if it stops them, there's enough reason to think it will work elsewhere, such as with random C-Sec guards.



[quote]Again, even if I humor you, screwing with two guys vs an entire defense force=no comparison.[/quote]

These upgrades were the work of research done to control the Reapers. If they're half as potent as TIM thinks they are, I would not put it past those upgrades to instantly assume direct control of small platoon of C-Sec, farfetched as it may seem on the surface. BTW, I just thought of something. ME3 is not the first example of this kind of tech. It was in ME:R, iirc.


[quote]Oh and if there's even one Loki mech, game over. Yes, that's right. Those things that practically kill themselves would just shoot him in the face.[/quote]

That would be compelling if we ever saw C-Sec employ LOKI mechs. I doubt they're even legal on the Citadel. I know the Blue Suns use them there, but I think breaking the rules over AI would be the least of their problems with the law.


[quote][quote]Point is, 'man found a way to get there. Thems the facts.[/quote]
Any idiot can get to the station. But he has no chance of getting near anything important. None.[/quote]

You keep insisting this, over and over again, but it doesn't follow from anything soundly -- you're begging the question (many of them, in fact). He has no chance of getting near anything important? None?? Why??? Is it because the incomeptent and already preoccupied police force that is C-Sec is going to stop him? If not them, then what's stopping him?

That, of course, is where I brought up TIM's Terminator implants as his weapon against them. You've dismissed them mainly because that idea just doesn't "sit well" with you, but I'm sorry to say, that doesn't make it untrue. I've also supposed he brought some of his minions with him, as that's not impossible either. Nothing says he went alone (he'd need at least a ship with some kind of crew to have gotten there in the first place). What say you about that one?

In all this time have yet to hear you soundly put those questions to rest. If you did, I'd back off, but alas. And no, a response down the lines of: "because art//Bad Writing™/whatever other cards anti-enders love to play" is not an answer.

You may as well just concede defeat if you're going to play those cards.


[quote][quote]Too bad when you try to put forward any sensible explanation of ME3 forward to an anti-ender, they'll not only dismiss it, but dimiss the notion that any sense can be made of whatever the topic at hand may be [/quote]
You have yet to provide a sensible explanation on this topic. And notice that going on a unrelated rant about "anti-enders" isn't doing you any good.[/quote]

What I've put forward has been rejected by you on the grounds of... you not wanting to believe it. Not, mind you, there are any actual holes in the explanations or that they contradict the information we're given from within the story.

Let's not forget you asking me to prove things while preemptively dismissing the proof that exists.

As to the rant... it may not do you any good, but it does for me: (1) This is something I see around this forum time and again and take issue with just as often. So I saved myself future time by making and archiving this post; (2) it felt good.

I know what I'm doing.


[quote][quote]Anti-enders' positions all rest on (1) "sounds like"-nonsense, and; (2) Bad Writing™. And I'd accept #2, but anti-enders have used it as a crutch not to even think, just bash senselessly, even when the answers are right there to be found in the story (and that they have learned well from their master... smudboy!!)[/quote]
1. It is nonsense[/quote]

Ah, you are not familiar with HYR-speak.

"Sound like"-nonsense refers to people taking a position because it "sounds like" something they heard.

It becomes -nonsense when it doesn't make sense, but people still go with it because it "sounds right."


[quote]2. So you now just as senselessy refuse their arguments because of associations only true in your head? Good to know. Hint: I've never actually seen smudboy's vids. Independently coming to similar concluions based on logic? Shocking.[/quote]

Sad thing about stereotypes is, they are usually accurate.

Exceptions exist, of course, but you've done the very thing anti-enders do that makes me not take them seriously: dismissing the mere possibility of a sensible explanation existing because you think it doesn't. So, you're not an exception.

As for smudboy... anti-enders followed in his path (over-the-top nitpicking) whether they're aware of it or not.


[quote][quote]It's not a question of can/can't. It's about want (I believe I've had this discussion with you before).[/quote]
"Desire is irrelevant. I am a machine"- Terminator 3 (excuse the bad reference)[/quote]

You don't need to be human to realize the vast difference in value between individual and civilization. Bottom line.


[quote][quote]Again, they can endlessly throw indoctrinated minions like TIM at it, and it's not a big loss at all if/when they are stopped. Thralls are easy to get, and not inherently valuable -- they are expendable. Reaper ships themselves are not expendable. Losing 1 is devastating, and must be avoided unless absolutely necessary. Why? Because that's the entire point of what they're doing -- harvesting civilizations. You can replace a lost thrall. You cannot replace a lost civilization.[/quote]

You also argued that single Reaper ships can be brought down with enough firepower but together they are invincible. So attacking together=...dead Reapers?

Please. It took everything we had to destroy one Reaper. And even it had backup (geth fleet) Now imagine ALL the Reapers vs Citadel fleet. It's a joke.

Reapers wouldn't have lost a damn thing. And while I'm not sure on the timeline just now, they could likely have geth reinforcements as well (after they make the deal)[/quote]

Yes. Some will be killed.

Not enough to even dent their numbers, as it relates to chances for conventional victory, but it becomes too many to the Reapers very quickly. It would be a failure for them to lose more than they make, and there are only 10 species by my count that are fit to harvest. That's not a lot of room for risky/dangerous assaults such as taking the Citadel.

And no, the Citadel fleet alone would not do much damage, but the Citadel is a center of interest for many entire species. War strategists in ME3 are actively staying on top of the Reapers' movements. If they see the Reapers making a push for the Citadel, you can bet the entire galaxy with at least an embassy on the station will seek to push them back, maybe at all costs. At which point, there will be casualties for the Reapers. Again, not a dent to us, but a travesty to them.

Yes, the Reapers are wussing out -- with good reason. It's not a war, it's a harvest. Sacrifing of your existing "crop" (if you will) to gain less of it back defeats the entire purpose of the practice (unless it were necessary to to avoid losing even more).


[quote][quote]And given that the Reapers don't believe they're going to lose anyway (until they hear of the Crucible project), they have no reason to hurry and take the Citadel. Just keep throwing indoctrinated minions at it 'til it works (and it did, ala TIM).

They can take the Citadel in force. They don't want to. And they don't need to, if they think they're going to win anyway without losing as many ships. So they waited 'til a thrall (TIM) got it back into their control without sacrificing any.[/quote]

I'd buy the overconfidence thing if this were Palpatine at the end of Jedi. It's not. It's machines (killbots as of ME3) that only do what they're programmed to do in the most efficient matter. This does not hold.[/quote]

It's not efficient to needlessly sacrifice valuable resources over expendable ones. Especially not when it won't make a difference in winning and losing. *And without knowledge of the Crucible, they have no reason to believe it is.

*EC Refuse ending proves they were right on this. No Crucible, no victory (for galaxy fighting Reapers).

[Jorji Costava]

HYR2.0 wrote...

As for smudboy... anti-enders followed in his path (over-the-top nitpicking) whether they're aware of it or not.

In general, there's no such thing as the anti-ender's perspective. People who didn't like the ending had lots of different (and often conflicting) reasons for disliking it. I was no fan of it, yet I find smudboy's approach to be pedantic and almost entirely unhelpful.

[CrutchCricket]

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

I'm sorry. I guess I should have also said: please do not use words that you do not know how to apply correctly.[/quote]
Nah, that one was correct. You were arguing against yourself for some reason.


[quote]

No, I'm not ****ing with you. If you can show me anything to indicate that anyone knew what the Conduit was in ME1 before actually getting there and finding out on Ilose, I'll eat my crow. If not, you'll just have to concede that point.[/quote]
It's telling that you ignore the rest of my point about this. You know, the part where it doesn't even matter what it was? Yeah, that.


[quote]

TIM's power is nothing more than glorified Reaper-indoctrination, which works across species and organics have no known immunity to it (health surely isn't it, seeing as plenty of completely-healthy people have fallen victim to it).[/quote]
Irrelevant. Indoctrination is slow and gradual. It's not instant mind control and it sure as hell doesn't brainwash large crowds in one swoop. It also doesn't work on mechs.

[quote]
Again, all Shepard or Anderson had to do was point their gun at him and shoot to kill him, and even in their injured states either one of them could have easily done that if they were not stopped. What stopped them? All evidence points to one thing. And if it stops them, there's enough reason to think it will work elsewhere, such as with random C-Sec guards.[/quote]
No, there really isn't. The fact that it appears to be direct control actually argues against it being regular indoctrination. But more to the point, you have absolutely no idea how it works, how strong it really is, what its area of affect is, nothing. You have nothing but assumptions, based on one questionable instance where the subjects number only two and both are exhausted and near death. If you see me holding down a weak, dying man, do you go off and assume I can wrestle countless professional athletes in their prime? I think not.

And even if I grant that no single organic can stand against this power, you conveniently forget all other tactics that can be employed that don't require going up to his face. The aforementioned mechs, snipers, tear gas, flash-bangs, venting into space. Hell even blast doors will do it. Can't get near him, quarantine his ass until you find something that can.


[quote]

These upgrades were the work of research done to control the Reapers. [/quote]
An effort doomed to fail. TIM has nothing but a party trick of making a few husks dance. He never had any chance of controlling the Reapers on his own, and he blew his chance to control using the Crucible when he implanted himself.


[quote]

That would be compelling if we ever saw C-Sec employ LOKI mechs. I doubt they're even legal on the Citadel. I know the Blue Suns use them there, but I think breaking the rules over AI would be the least of their problems with the law.[/quote]
It's called commandeering. If I humor you and allow that no amount of organics can get near TIM, you can bet they'll use what they can find. Hell they'd probably take a servicebot and strap a bomb to its chest if they're desperate enough.


[quote]
You keep insisting this, over and over again, but it doesn't follow from anything soundly -- you're begging the question (many of them, in fact). He has no chance of getting near anything important? None?? Why??? Is it because the incomeptent and already preoccupied police force that is C-Sec is going to stop him? If not them, then what's stopping him?[/quote]
A security/police force doing its job is not "sound reasoning" to you? Said security prioritizing the control of the station over dealing with pissy refugees is not sound to you? Or even protecting the VIPs (Council) after Cerberus already attacked them once (and look how well that turned out, and that was with a trained force, not a glorified administrator)?

I'm not the one in denial here, buddy.

[quote]
That, of course, is where I brought up TIM's Terminator implants as his weapon against them. You've dismissed them mainly because that idea just doesn't "sit well" with you, but I'm sorry to say, that doesn't make it untrue. I've also supposed he brought some of his minions with him, as that's not impossible either. Nothing says he went alone (he'd need at least a ship with some kind of crew to have gotten there in the first place). What say you about that one?[/quote]
They failed once. Why should this be any different?

[quote]
What I've put forward has been rejected by you on the grounds of... you not wanting to believe it. Not, mind you, there are any actual holes in the explanations or that they contradict the information we're given from within the story.

Let's not forget you asking me to prove things while preemptively dismissing the proof that exists.[/quote]
What proof? You have nothing but assumptions.

You assume TIM can control everyone.

You assume C-Sec is too stupid to do anything but go up to him and get brainlocked.

You assume that everyone else that can do something about it, even in a non-combat capacity (seal off the Presidium, ram him with space car, anything) won't because... reasons?

You assume there aren't even basic automated security measures anywhere on the station despite the fact that they've been paranoid about it since ME2, let alone during the war and after Cerberus already attacked once.

None of your assertions have any backing, whether in reason, or in in-game evidence. Don't talk to me about rejecting something because you just don't like it. You're thus far undefeated in the "It is because I say so" championship.

[quote]
I know what I'm doing.[/quote]
Do you?

[quote]
Ah, you are not familiar with HYR-speak.

"Sound like"-nonsense refers to people taking a position because it "sounds like" something they heard.

It becomes -nonsense when it doesn't make sense, but people still go with it because it "sounds right."[/quote]
What are you even talking about?


[quote]

Sad thing about stereotypes is, they are usually accurate.

Exceptions exist, of course, but you've done the very thing anti-enders do that makes me not take them seriously: dismissing the mere possibility of a sensible explanation existing because you think it doesn't. So, you're not an exception.
[/quote]
If your idea of a sensible explanation is everyone on the Citadel had a collective brain fart that allowed TIM to take it over singlehandedly because we see him there at the end, then I'm happy to disappoint. What I'm getting a little annoyed with is the self-righteous high ground you're attempting to stand on. "Anti-enders dismiss the possibility of proof" and "anti-enders just claim nonsense"; well what the hell do you think you're doing now? You get all high and mighty on me because I think the Reapers were morons for not taking the Citadel immediately and then you turn around and call everyone on the Citadel (or fine, just C-Sec)  idiots because in your mind TIM handed their asses to them. You're no different than I am. You just put down different characters than I do. So quit acting like you're some paragon of argumentation and I'm just a prejudiced forum peasant. Your ideas are just as inflexible and preconceived as mine, no matter how much you try to pretty it up.

[quote]
Yes. Some will be killed.

Not enough to even dent their numbers, as it relates to chances for conventional victory, but it becomes too many to the Reapers very quickly. It would be a failure for them to lose more than they make, and there are only 10 species by my count that are fit to harvest. That's not a lot of room for risky/dangerous assaults such as taking the Citadel.

And no, the Citadel fleet alone would not do much damage, but the Citadel is a center of interest for many entire species. War strategists in ME3 are actively staying on top of the Reapers' movements. If they see the Reapers making a push for the Citadel, you can bet the entire galaxy with at least an embassy on the station will seek to push them back, maybe at all costs. At which point, there will be casualties for the Reapers. Again, not a dent to us, but a travesty to them.

Yes, the Reapers are wussing out -- with good reason. It's not a war, it's a harvest. Sacrifing of your existing "crop" (if you will) to gain less of it back defeats the entire purpose of the practice (unless it were necessary to to avoid losing even more).[/quote]
No.

They would not lose a damn thing.

Did they lose any attacking the Batarians? Or even during the initial assault on Earth? No.

Despite all the setbacks, they still had the advantage of surprise on the galaxy at large due to the fact that yes, all governments were dumbasses. If they had made for the Citadel right after the Batarians, or hell even just skipped the Batarians, they would've taken it before anyone knew what hit'em. It would've been almost as good as coming through it in the first place. And then it'd be business as usual.

The rest is irrelevant.

[AlanC9]

Once the Reaper fleet is at the Citadel, how do they "take" it? Can it be boarded if it's closed up? Apparently not, or Shepard wouldn't be going around the long way in the endgame

Blowing it up is easy enough, but that isn't the objective.

[CrutchCricket]

AlanC9 wrote...

Once the Reaper fleet is at the Citadel, how do they "take" it? Can it be boarded if it's closed up? Apparently not, or Shepard wouldn't be going around the long way in the endgame

Blowing it up is easy enough, but that isn't the objective.

Well common sense would say no, obviously. That's why it has a close function.

Still this is the Reapers we're talking about. For one they can hold that position indefinitely, much easier than a planet because of the relay bottleneck. But that's ultimately inefficient and as my buddy up there likes to point out till he's blue in the face, carries an unnecessary risk, however unlikely of some Reaper loss. Another thing to consider: Reaper speed and general toughness to anything short of sustained concentrated fire. In the ME1 battle, we only had the one Reaper and he let his geth buddies go first. Now we have all the Reapers and no one's expecting them. If they all bumrush the station without even stopping to engage the fleet, it's possible one might get through before the station closes.

But if they don't, some other options then:

1) Indoctrination is not blocked by any known materials, including whatever metal the Citadel is made of. It's possible that the bulk of the Reapers can just "lay" on the station and slowly indoctrinate everyone, either driving them insane or actually leading to a mass revolt on the Presidium with the intent of opening the arms. If they can control the intensity of the signal (and it seems logical that they could) they could speed it up so they're not there for days.

2) Similar to the first one but with a more direct approach of sending occuli or other small constructs through the vents. The station may be impregnable militarily but that doesn't mean it's 100% impermeable. We know duct racts sometimes get spaced, therefore we can assume the venting system presents possible entry points (and it's always venting isn't it? See thermal exhaust port). Furthermore said points would not be irrevocably closed as the station is still meant to keep organics alive, even during seige. This could either serve to bring indoctrination boosters closer to the inhabitants, or to launch an internal assault. Occuli and other direct Reaper constructs would be much more resilient and depenendable in battle than our favorte chain smoker.

3) Melt your way through. I know this seems to go against everything we're told about the station but again, Reapers don't follow our rules. Thannix canons are specifically anti-shield, anti-armor and what we have are only cheap knockoffs of the real thing. A few Reapers concentrating fire on a weakspot that's not near crucial systems (I'm thinking the seam between the end caps) could conceivably burn through. The damage would be a small cost compared to assured victory.

4) Ilos. Nowhere is it stated that the Conduit was destroyed on either end. No doubt Ilos is being guarded (no one's going to allow such a backdoor to go unattended) or perhaps studied to try and further understand relay technology. But that's nothing to the Reapers. They get there, active the Conduit and go through themselves.

5) Finally, stealth. I said the Reapers should take the Citadel first. I never said it should only be full-on assault. This approach is actually most similar to HYR's "TIM did it" though without the fallacy of using a superpowered terrorist to take on a whole station in the middle of a war. The idea is the old "mole opens the gates in the dead of night", though for that to work, the mole can't be an obvious antagonist, and should preferrably have access to the door to begin with. In a nutshell: The Reapers don't attack anyone, but instead capture and indoctrinate an individual who has access to the Council. That individual then either goes under the radar and is in position at the controls to prevent them from closing the station when the attack does come, or carries an artifact that can be planted on the Council itself to indoctrinate them. The difference here is timing. No war means no heightened security, means most of the dolts on the Citadel still believe the Reapers are myth. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled and all that. And all this is assuming the Reapers have to resort to conventional tactics for any one objective- they really don't.

Plenty of ways to take the station, from just charging at it to the stealthy devious approach. The only prerequisite is that it be done first.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 17 août 2013 - 04:26 .

[Kenshen]

The plan of attack that they had followed for billions of years was really only delayed yet they end up not following it once they do arrive. I would have stuck to the plan and head straight for the citadel, shut down all relays and then begin the hundreds of years of harvesting. Allowing the relays to continue to work never made sense to me when that would not have been in the programing. For all of Harbs smack talk I guess they did view this cycle as a true threat, enough so to change the plan that had never failed them before.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

[quote]CrutchCricket wrote...

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

I'm sorry. I guess I should have also said: please do not use words that you do not know how to apply correctly.[/quote]
Nah, that one was correct. You were arguing against yourself for some reason.[/quote]

I was preemptively responding to the expected response, to move this along.


[quote][quote]No, I'm not ****ing with you. If you can show me anything to indicate that anyone knew what the Conduit was in ME1 before actually getting there and finding out on Ilose, I'll eat my crow. If not, you'll just have to concede that point.[/quote]
It's telling that you ignore the rest of my point about this. You know, the part where it doesn't even matter what it was? Yeah, that.[/quote]

Frankly I didn't understand that part at all.

As for knowing/not knowing what it was beforehand...

... nothing then?


[quote]Irrelevant. Indoctrination is slow and gradual. It's not instant mind control and it sure as hell doesn't brainwash large crowds in one swoop. It also doesn't work on mechs.[/quote]

Whatever it is, it isn't new. TIM had it since ME:R and forcibly controlled Grayson.

Reaper indoctrination can also forcibly take control of one's limbs. Not always, but sometimes. I forget what exactly the circumstances are, but I can look it up if you don't believe me.

There's no established limit on how much it can handle. And no, C-Sec does not use mechs.


[quote][quote]Again, all Shepard or Anderson had to do was point their gun at him and shoot to kill him, and even in their injured states either one of them could have easily done that if they were not stopped. What stopped them? All evidence points to one thing. And if it stops them, there's enough reason to think it will work elsewhere, such as with random C-Sec guards.[/quote]

No, there really isn't. The fact that it appears to be direct control actually argues against it being regular indoctrination.[/quote]

(See response following next two responses).

[quote]But more to the point, you have absolutely no idea how it works, how strong it really is, what its area of affect is, nothing. You have nothing but assumptions, based on one questionable instance where the subjects number only two and both are exhausted and near death.[/quote]

One instance is not an assumption, it's fact. And it's only "questionable" because you don't want to believe it.

[quote]If you see me holding down a weak, dying man, do you go off and assume I can wrestle countless professional athletes in their prime? I think not.[/quote]

False equivalence. TIM's powers were not a test of strength, so the state of Anderson/Shepard is irrelevant there.

It's only a test of control over the person's right of mind. In that, it wouldn't matter how healthy they were.

Again, all they had to do to end it was point and shoot. What was stopping them?


[quote]An effort doomed to fail. TIM has nothing but a party trick of making a few husks dance. He never had any chance of controlling the Reapers on his own, and he blew his chance to control using the Crucible when he implanted himself.[/quote]

As I said, this isn't new. Cerberus had something like it in ME:R, able to take control of people (Grayson, Kahlee).

This is the same thing, but improved upon. The Reapers saw it as enough of a threat to intervene on Sanctuary.

I've said before and will say again: Sanctuary was as much a threat to the Reapers as the Crucible.


[quote]And even if I grant that no single organic can stand against this power, you conveniently forget all other tactics that can be employed that don't require going up to his face. The aforementioned mechs, snipers, tear gas, flash-bangs, venting into space. Hell even blast doors will do it. Can't get near him, quarantine his ass until you find something that can.[/quote][quote]It's called commandeering. If I humor you and allow that no amount of organics can get near TIM, you can bet they'll use what they can find. Hell they'd probably take a servicebot and strap a bomb to its chest if they're desperate enough.[/quote]

This is not a battle we're talking about. This is TIM sneaking in and walking from Point A to Point B, and it's possible to do that without C-Sec even registering him as a threat. C-Sec is far from watertight. Balak is chilling in the docks.

Also, he could have gone in with a squad. I believe that was the original plan, anyways (first leaked script).


[quote]A security/police force doing its job is not "sound reasoning" to you? Said security prioritizing the control of the station over dealing with pissy refugees is not sound to you? Or even protecting the VIPs (Council) after Cerberus already attacked them once (and look how well that turned out, and that was with a trained force, not a glorified administrator)?[/quote]

Because C-Sec "doing their job" is not a reassuing notion, given how much is easily able to get past them. I brought up multiple examples of how that could be nixed: TIM's potent control abilities, TIM comes with an armed squad, both of those... here's a new one: TIM using the same methods Leng used to get around security, pre-Citadel Coup.

It's like dismissing the possibility of a terrorist attack because of TSA -- people slip things past them regularly.


[quote]I'm not the one in denial here, buddy.[/quote]

Last I checked, it's you denying these facts: TIM standing at the Citadel master-control unit, and being able to take control of anyone in his area-of-effect... because "it's just Art/Bad Writing™/Starchild/Starbrat/Spacebrat/Spacebaby." *handwave*


[quote]They failed once. Why should this be any different?[/quote]

They failed to assassinate the councilors. They didn't fail to get infiltrate. It wasn't C-Sec that stopped them, either.


[quote]What proof? You have nothing but assumptions.

You assume TIM can control everyone.[/quote]

Oh? Then I suppose Reaper indoctrination can't affect everyone, either, since that's never been used on everyone.


[quote]You assume C-Sec is too stupid to do anything but go up to him and get brainlocked.[/quote]

Nothing far-fetched about that one. Citadel Security is porous as it is.


[quote]You assume that everyone else that can do something about it, even in a non-combat capacity (seal off the Presidium, ram him with space car, anything) won't because... reasons?[/quote]

How about simply no one being there? It happened as Saren marched to the control unit himself. It can happen again.


[quote]You assume there aren't even basic automated security measures anywhere on the station despite the fact that they've been paranoid about it since ME2, let alone during the war and after Cerberus already attacked once.[/quote]

Well, we haven't seen any automated security, so there's no reason to account for what we cannot know exists anyway.


[quote][quote]Ah, you are not familiar with HYR-speak.

"Sound like"-nonsense refers to people taking a position because it "sounds like" something they heard.

It becomes -nonsense when it doesn't make sense, but people still go with it because it "sounds right."[/quote]

What are you even talking about?[/quote]

Why anti-enders hold faulty assertions: it doesn't make sense, but it "sounds like" what I was led to believe!

And why they don't accept alternative ones: ... uh, that doesn't "sound like" it's right, even if it makes far more sense!


[quote]If your idea of a sensible explanation is everyone on the Citadel had a collective brain fart that allowed TIM to take it over singlehandedly because we see him there at the end, then I'm happy to disappoint.[/quote]
Couple things:
-- TIM taking it over singlehandedly is just about fact. At least, nobody stopped him from getting to the controls.
-- You refuse to accept this reality. How he got there becomes irrelevant, then, because all of that holds anyway. He got there. If you dismiss my explanation, because he should have been stopped by C-Sec, or mechs, or bystanders, you're throwing rocks in a glass house because that "should have" happened in the game. It didn't. As such, we should be past that now. TIM did get past all of them. The question is not if he can, but how/why he did.


[quote]What I'm getting a little annoyed with is the self-righteous high ground you're attempting to stand on. "Anti-enders dismiss the possibility of proof" and "anti-enders just claim nonsense"; well what the hell do you think you're doing now?[/quote]

I never dismissed proof. I've only rejected your responses for not really proving my ideas wrong.

You don't think I can concede defeat when I'm soundly proven wrong? It has happened... twice, that I recall.

I'm not here to say I'm right. I'm here to look for the best answers, mine or others'. And in this case, "lol art" is not it.


[quote]Your ideas are just as inflexible and preconceived as mine, no matter how much you try to pretty it up.[/quote]

You have no ideas, just handwaving. That's the difference between you and I.


[quote]No.

They would not lose a damn thing.

Did they lose any attacking the Batarians?[/quote]

Indoctrinated batarians disabled all security and gave them a free ride in.


[quote]Or even during the initial assault on Earth? No.[/quote]

It's not the initial assault that is worrisome but the response.

Did they lose any ships when Shepard came back to Earth with a fleet, even in Low EMS?

They did. And that's what they would be facing if they tried to take the Citadel through brute-force.


[quote]Despite all the setbacks, they still had the advantage of surprise on the galaxy at large due to the fact that yes, all governments were dumbasses. If they had made for the Citadel right after the Batarians, or hell even just skipped the Batarians, they would've taken it before anyone knew what hit'em. It would've been almost as good as coming through it in the first place. And then it'd be business as usual.

The rest is irrelevant.[/quote]

It's not irrelevant if it's the difference between losing some ships and losing no ships.

And there's good reason to believe that difference exists.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 17 août 2013 - 09:48 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

osbornep wrote...

In general, there's no such thing as the anti-ender's perspective. People who didn't like the ending had lots of different (and often conflicting) reasons for disliking it. I was no fan of it, yet I find smudboy's approach to be pedantic and almost entirely unhelpful.

I find that approach to accurately describe most anti-enders. That's the point of stereotyping.

Exceptions are irrelevant, for now.

[CrutchCricket]

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

Frankly I didn't understand that part at all.

As for knowing/not knowing what it was beforehand...

... nothing then?[/quote]
Saren not knowing what the Conduit did is irrelevant. Assuming it's a giant weapon and making it the sole focus of all his efforts still indicates a staunch belief that he cannot win without it. A belief shared by Sovereign as well, which gives it a whole new level of credibility.

If a Reaper with an army of geth, an elite upgraded turian soldier and the element of surprise can't breach the Citadel with their existing resources, than what makes you think ol' Timmy can in the middle of a war, after he's already tried and failed with a coup attempt?

As to whether he did know, there doesn't seem to be any direct evidece one way or another. But it's not unreasonable to assume he did know after getting the Cypher. After all he had Benezia to help him work it out and she has more power and experience than Liara. Maybe even Shiala helped, or the Thorian itself, before it was betrayed.


[quote]
Whatever it is, it isn't new. TIM had it since ME:R and forcibly controlled Grayson.

Reaper indoctrination can also forcibly take control of one's limbs. Not always, but sometimes. I forget what exactly the circumstances are, but I can look it up if you don't believe me.[/quote]
lolno.

TIM had no direct control over Grayson. He ordered red sand to be injected into him to break his will and speed up the conversion. That's it. The Reapers did the rest (references as "voices from the void" or something in the book).

If TIM controlled Grayson, why would he go on a rampage and need to be pursued by Leng?

[quote]
There's no established limit on how much it can handle. And no, C-Sec does not use mechs.[/quote]
Then you can assume what you want, but realize it's an assumption. One the rest of us are under no obligation to share. And I've already talked about commandeering mechs, even if C-Sec has none of their own.


[quote]
One instance is not an assumption, it's fact. And it's only "questionable" because you don't want to believe it.[/quote]
One instance with extenuating circumstance is not conclusive. Claiming that it is is the assumption.  And starting now any further responses that equate to "no, you're in denial" will be ignored.

[quote]
False equivalence. TIM's powers were not a test of strength, so the state of Anderson/Shepard is irrelevant there.[/quote]
Yes they were. Strength=/= physical strength only. TIM's powers have limits. Therefore, by definition, the strength of his powers must be greater than the strength of his opponents' resistance.



[quote]

As I said, this isn't new. Cerberus had something like it in ME:R, able to take control of people (Grayson, Kahlee).

This is the same thing, but improved upon. The Reapers saw it as enough of a threat to intervene on Sanctuary.

I've said before and will say again: Sanctuary was as much a threat to the Reapers as the Crucible.[/quote]
I suggest you re-read that book. Cerberus had no control over those implants they were just studying their effects.

Sanctuary could prove to be an inconvenience if they disrupted enough Reaper minions (a la Leviathan) but it had absolutely zero chance of doing anything to the Reapers themselves. The fact that you claim we can't defeat them conventionally but essentially hacking them is a possibility is laughably inconsistent. Or really, just plain laughable.


[quote]
This is not a battle we're talking about. This is TIM sneaking in and walking from Point A to Point B, and it's possible to do that without C-Sec even registering him as a threat. C-Sec is far from watertight. Balak is chilling in the docks.

Also, he could have gone in with a squad. I believe that was the original plan, anyways (first leaked script).[/quote]
I don't care about TIM being in the docks. That does nothing. But as soon as he tries to access a restricted area, particularly one as crucial as the Presidium and the master control it's all over. And if he does have a squad I just bet it'd be highly visible stormtroopers assault troopers with giant Cerberus logos painted on more shamelessly than NASCAR ads. In which case I don't rate his chances above zero in even the docks.

And I hope you're not arguing from early scripts. They no longer matter. The game is out and that's what have to work with.


[quote]
Because C-Sec "doing their job" is not a reassuing notion, given how much is easily able to get past them. I brought up multiple examples of how that could be nixed: TIM's potent control abilities, TIM comes with an armed squad, both of those... here's a new one: TIM using the same methods Leng used to get around security, pre-Citadel Coup.

It's like dismissing the possibility of a terrorist attack because of TSA -- people slip things past them regularly.[/quote]
And I refuted each of those examples. To your new one, after-action investigations would surely be conducted to determine exactly what security holes Leng used and plug them.

As for terrorist attacks, should we talk about that relatively obscure one from twelve years ago, specifically what effect it had on security?

[quote]
Last I checked, it's you denying these facts: TIM standing at the Citadel master-control unit, and being able to take control of anyone in his area-of-effect... because "it's just Art/Bad Writing™/Starchild/Starbrat/Spacebrat/Spacebaby." *handwave*[/quote]
Check again.

TIM standing at the master control unit (which may be a different control now, since the station is capable of shifting)- happened after the fact. The assumption is that he was there the whole time.

Being able to take over assumption in his area of effect- the assumption is "anyone", based on one case (a point does not a line make) and indeed what his area of effect is.

I deny your assumptions, not the facts they surround. And for the record I never questioned or complained as to why TIM is there at the end or blamed it on bad writing/the holokid. Nothing wrong with that scene.


[quote]
They failed to assassinate the councilors. They didn't fail to get infiltrate. It wasn't C-Sec that stopped them, either.[/quote]
Bailey: They turned tail when they got wind we were coming. (paraphrased).

Yes, Shepard was instrumental in stopping them. But the encounter served as a clear reminder of how vulnerable they were. Logically security would've been tightened up the ass. Some people even praise the coup for that unintended side effect, ending the Citadel's complacency.


[quote]
Oh? Then I suppose Reaper indoctrination can't affect everyone, either, since that's never been used on everyone.[/quote]
Reaper indoctrination has been used on 85% of enemies. 85% is a more convincing case than one occurence.


[quote]
Nothing far-fetched about that one. Citadel Security is porous as it is.
[/quote]
"Nope, C-sec is just dumb, man!"- you
"Nope, the holokid is just dumb, man!"- the argument you claim to despise.

I rest my case.

[quote]
How about simply no one being there? It happened as Saren marched to the control unit himself. It can happen again.[/quote]
The result of an evacuation combined with with an all out invasion of the Citadel complete with back-door surprise (that also drops him right next to the Council Chamber elevator)  If you don't see the difference, then I really can't help you.


[quote]
Well, we haven't seen any automated security, so there's no reason to account for what we cannot know exists anyway.[/quote]
"The Citadel also has turrets to ward off small craft, such as dropships."- ME Wiki "Citadel"

Whadda ya know? They're not completely oblivious to the use of turrets after all.


[quote]
Couple things:
-- TIM taking it over singlehandedly is just about fact. At least, nobody stopped him from getting to the controls.
[/quote]
-Source?

(rest ignored for reasons stated above)

[quote]
I never dismissed proof. I've only rejected your responses for not really proving my ideas wrong.

You don't think I can concede defeat when I'm soundly proven wrong? It has happened... twice, that I recall.

I'm not here to say I'm right. I'm here to look for the best answers, mine or others'. And in this case, "lol art" is not it.[/quote]
You reject my ideas by ignoring my arguments and lumping my replies into some hypothetical stereotype and you call that "looking for the best answers"?

I very much begin to wonder what the point of even talking to you is.

[quote]
You have no ideas, just handwaving. That's the difference between you and I.[/quote]
See the above underlined for a prime example of handwaving.

[quote]
Indoctrinated batarians disabled all security and gave them a free ride in.[/quote]
Fine, and did they use enemy of the state batarians during a war? Or did they use batarians that were already supposed to be there and had access?


[quote]
It's not the initial assault that is worrisome but the response.[/quote]
Victory in this case guarantees no response.

[quote]
It's not irrelevant if it's the difference between losing some ships and losing no ships.

And there's good reason to believe that difference exists.
[/quote]
No, there really isn't.  A full-on Reaper blitz is unstoppable, and if you don't know they're coming, chances are most ships won't even get to battlestations before getting roflstomped.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 18 août 2013 - 08:41 .

[LiL Reapur]

This thread is still going? Man i'm good......

[Oni Changas]

Roflstomp Palaven, Earth, Tuchanka, and the Perseus Veil. Hegemeny goes as planned in game.

When they're done, manipulate Shepard into boarding a disguised indoctrination ship with a falsified story that Crucible plans are there. Indoctrinate/subdue Shepard. Then, when he's at his weakness broadcast something across the whole galaxy/extranet: Shepard stripped bare on video and getting a fully controlled Kai Leng to shove his kpar up Shep's ass.

Galactic morale: CRUSHED.

When galaxy is cleared of Heirarchy/Alliance/Cerberus/Migrant Fleet/Geth/Krogan/Batarians, subdue Asari and move in on Salarians, with the powerhouses cut down, you've got cowering Raloi to be the next gen of Collectors and the Yahg to destroy at any given time. Elcor, Volus, Hanar, and Drell either have insufficient numbers or insufficient force.

Modifié par OniTYME, 19 août 2013 - 03:11 .

[dorktainian]

if i were the reaper commander, i'd create an army of lookalike drones, send them in and cause havok, draw humanitys hero figure/ only threat to me out of hiding, lull him into believing in a space mr microphone, drag him around all over the place until he was mentally exhausted, then finally tempt him into some crazy mindbending scenario until he believes everything i say, then turn him against his own kind.

Modifié par dorktainian, 19 août 2013 - 08:07 .

[Sir DeLoria]

If I was the Reaper Commander? Idk, assure Quarian dominance perhaps? Commit Hara-Kiri?

[AlexMBrennan]

Cut our losses, wipe this cycle completely (orbital bombardment rather an a prolonged ground war against sitting ducks) and start over fresh (destroy ALL evidence of the previous cycles, fix the Citadel trap, upgrade relays to use certificate revocation lists to make sure they can't be hacked with a stolen IFF again*)

* I'd imagine the following exchange took place:
Relay control: Reaper-Commander, Rob the Reaper who had tragically been killed in action 3.7 million years ago is trying to use the Alpha relay. Note that we used Rob's corpse and his IFF as bait, and know that the Normadny has seized the IFF since we were able to use it to track the ship and abduct the crew. Do you want to grant access?
Reaper-Commander: Sure, why not?

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 19 août 2013 - 09:04 .

[dorktainian]

Anyone else wonder if the trilogy has been some kind of test?

based on A, B, or C, please tick the answer to life the universe and everything.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

[quote]CrutchCricket wrote...

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

Frankly I didn't understand that part at all.

As for knowing/not knowing what it was beforehand...

... nothing then?[/quote]

Saren not knowing what the Conduit did is irrelevant. Assuming it's a giant weapon and making it the sole focus of all his efforts still indicates a staunch belief that he cannot win without it. A belief shared by Sovereign as well, which gives it a whole new level of credibility.[/quote]

How did you reach that conclusion?

If they don't know what it is, they have no way of knowing if it's the difference between win and loss. As it happens, a backdoor entrance to the Citadel (what the Conduit turned out to be) really isn't something that the Reapers cannot win without. If that were the case, why didn't they destroy it from the other side.

Sovereign needed to know what the Protheans did to screw with the Keepers. It was a hole in the Reapers' established system, but to say Saren/Sovereign was worried they'd lose without it is just putting a pro-CV spin on it.


[quote]If a Reaper with an army of geth, an elite upgraded turian soldier and the element of surprise can't breach the Citadel with their existing resources, than what makes you think ol' Timmy can in the middle of a war, after he's already tried and failed with a coup attempt?[/quote]

... they did breach it. . They just weren't successful in their ultimate goal of opening the relay.

And that, only because Shepard and the Alliance Fifth Fleet bailed them out, not C-Sec.

I think TIM can get through just like any well-enough prepared person can get past any security. Like... TSA!


[quote]As to whether he did know, there doesn't seem to be any direct evidece one way or another. But it's not unreasonable to assume he did know after getting the Cypher. After all he had Benezia to help him work it out and she has more power and experience than Liara. Maybe even Shiala helped, or the Thorian itself, before it was betrayed.[/quote]

So nothing, then. Gotcha.


[quote]lolno.

TIM had no direct control over Grayson. He ordered red sand to be injected into him to break his will and speed up the conversion. That's it. The Reapers did the rest (references as "voices from the void" or something in the book).

If TIM controlled Grayson, why would he go on a rampage and need to be pursued by Leng?[/quote]

Actually yes, you're right. I remembered it wrong.

Grayson (the one with the implants TIM later adopted) was controlling Kahlee, not TIM ala Grayson.

... Someone (Kahlee, I mean) who was not "nearly dead" either.


[quote]Then you can assume what you want, but realize it's an assumption. One the rest of us are under no obligation to share.[/quote]

People can believe what they want, but there's nothing to refute my hypothesis, so the possibility I've supposed is not out-of-the-question. I'll only accept someone's rejection, though, if they can put forward a better explanation. One that: (1) makes sense; (2) is not contradicted by in-world info; (3) works in-world (i.e. -- not a cop-out like "bad writing").

To clarify, I'll accept "bad writing" if no workable explanation exists at all. I do not believe that's the case here, though.

Again, not everything is "bad writing" and you'll excuse me for not always accepting it so readily.


[quote][quote]False equivalence. TIM's powers were not a test of strength, so the state of Anderson/Shepard is irrelevant there.[/quote]

Yes they were. Strength=/= physical strength only. TIM's powers have limits. Therefore, by definition, the strength of his powers must be greater than the strength of his opponents' resistance.[/quote]

It screams of a double-standard when you write-off the idea of [TIM's powers being capable of taking control of more than one target at once... never mind the fact we see that it does] because we do not know enough about the nature of his powers, but turn around and declare [TIM's powers have limits] as though you do know enough to make that claim.

Which one is it? If my assumption wasn't valid, neither is yours on the limited nature of TIM's powers. If you don't like hearing that you're the one in denial, you should take another look at what you choose to believe, and choose not to.

As for the ongoing health argument: Kahlee could not resist Grayson's influence in ME:R, no health issues with her.


[quote]Sanctuary could prove to be an inconvenience if they disrupted enough Reaper minions (a la Leviathan) but it had absolutely zero chance of doing anything to the Reapers themselves. The fact that you claim we can't defeat them conventionally but essentially hacking them is a possibility is laughably inconsistent. Or really, just plain laughable.[/quote]

This is off-topic, but whatever...

It's possible that the Reapers didn't think Sanctuary would get past controlling husks but still saw that as enough of a problem to intervene, but I think they saw it as as much of a threat as the Crucible itself. After all, the Crucible did lend itself to allowing Shepard to control the Reapers, and I don't see why the Reapers would not try to keep themselves from being controlled. As to my positions, NO, it's not laughable. Reaper strength and numbers is what makes conventional victory (nearly) impossible, but those are not issues you'd deal with in trying to seize direct control of them. To say nothing of the fact that's essentially what happens in the end -- Shepard basically hacks the Catalyst with... himself -- not sure what's "laughable" about trying to find/exploit a ****** in their system over taking on 240,000 super-dreadnoughts straight up.


[quote]I don't care about TIM being in the docks. That does nothing. But as soon as he tries to access a restricted area, particularly one as crucial as the Presidium and the master control it's all over. And if he does have a squad I just bet it'd be highly visible stormtroopers assault troopers with giant Cerberus logos painted on more shamelessly than NASCAR ads. In which case I don't rate his chances above zero in even the docks.

And I hope you're not arguing from early scripts. They no longer matter. The game is out and that's what have to work with.[/quote]

Why not? Last time, Cerberus just shot everyone in their way the first time they tried to take the Citadel, and they were actually fairly successful at it (only Kai Leng failed to execute). It's established that Cerberus can outgun Alliance marines, so what's a few cops and Citadel civilians in their path? Shoot everything between Point A and Point B.

Or, there may have been an alternative route to it that C-Sec didn't know about, but the Reapers did (which TIM would effectively learn through them). Hence, Anderson/Shepard's confusion on their exact location before encountering him.

And the idea behind citing the older script is -- among other things -- to prove that more thought goes into it than many anti-enders choose to believe. It's not all "hurr they weren't think at alllll." Some things get cut, and then the writers' intention is lost in translation. You can even see that now with Zaeed's content in the vanilla game. There was a more clear explanation in the leaked scripts what his gripe with Cerberus is. That information does not make it to the game, but between some things he says and his war-asset dossier, it's an explanation that would make a lot of sense things if it had. I don't dismiss those kind of explanations, though, without the game clearly refuting it.


[quote]And I refuted each of those examples.[/quote]

If by "refuted" you mean "dismissed" then YES, you did "refute" them.

[quote]As for terrorist attacks, should we talk about that relatively obscure one from twelve years ago, specifically what effect it had on security?[/quote]

If you have something to say about it, then... sure


[quote]Bailey: They turned tail when they got wind we were coming. (paraphrased).[/quote]

I think the idea here is that Leng and a handful of Phantom's would be outmatched by Shepard, squad, and C-Sec.

Apart from that instance, you can see how C-Sec fared against Cerberus otherwise. Up until Shepard grabs a shuttle for the Council, his/her path is littered with dead C-Sec bodies. Straight up, C-Sec gets massacred by Cerberus.

And TIM's implants are based on what they augmented their soldiers with, and more (post-Sanctuary data).


[quote]"Nope, C-sec is just dumb, man!"- you
"Nope, the holokid is just dumb, man!"- the argument you claim to despise.

I rest my case.[/quote]

Not sure what point you're trying to make here, apart from your position being more agreeable to this forum's LCD.

And I'm not saying they're "dumb," so much as I'm saying they're not water-tight.

A resourceful enough person can get past just about any kind of security. TIM's character is a very determined one.


[quote]The result of an evacuation combined with with an all out invasion of the Citadel complete with back-door surprise (that also drops him right next to the Council Chamber elevator)  If you don't see the difference, then I really can't help you.[/quote]

It was your claim that C-Sec would be guarding a restricted area with particular caution. Saren's back-door entrance does not change that. Hell, we see him walk up to the control panel uncontested. Where was C-Sec then?

I don't seem to remember any "evacuation" in ME1. Even if it were, it wouldn't explain how Saren gets to the controls without resistance from C-Sec. Were they conveniently not there, or just not tough enough to stop him?

Either way, it goes to show that C-Sec isn't much a "last line of defense." Case in point.


[quote]"The Citadel also has turrets to ward off small craft, such as dropships."- ME Wiki "Citadel"

Whadda ya know? They're not completely oblivious to the use of turrets after all.[/quote]

So they use anti-aircraft guns. How does that indicate they have defenses in place to take out an infiltrator?

Pretty glaring difference.


[quote]Couple things:
-- TIM taking it over singlehandedly is just about fact. At least, nobody stopped him from getting to the controls.
[/quote]

-Source?[/quote]

Again, the evidence is TIM standing right there at the end of the game.

If C-Sec has this plethora of sound defenses in place that you say, how do you explain him standing there at all?

Oh yeah, "art."


[quote]You reject my ideas by ignoring my arguments and lumping my replies into some hypothetical stereotype and you call that "looking for the best answers"?

I very much begin to wonder what the point of even talking to you is.[/quote]

Stereotype?? You made that your point multiple times:

[quote]CrutchCricket wrote...

lol, they didn't seem to have a problem when it was convenient to the plot.[/quote]

[quote]CrutchCricket wrote...

Made possible by shifting levels of
derp as the plot demands? There is absolutely no reason the Reapers
wouldn't reclaim the Citadel as soon as they arrived, apart from "art".[/quote]

^ You've literally said the Reapers didn't take the Citadel because "art" with the second post. First post echoes that.

And that is your explanation for this: it's just stupid art/bad-writing™.

You can complain all you want about me "stereotyping," but if the shoe fits, wear it.


[quote][quote]Indoctrinated batarians disabled all security and gave them a free ride in.[/quote]

Fine, and did they use enemy of the state batarians during a war? Or did they use batarians that were already supposed to be there and had access?[/quote]

Not exactly sure what that's supposed to mean. Resistance?

When the Reapers are on top of you in force, the resistance is over before it begins...

... unless, you get reinforcements. That's why Khar'Shan is screwed, while Earth is not. Which leads me to...


[quote]Victory in this case guarantees no response.[/quote]

Not if you know/expect they'll come. In which case, there will be one.

Even the Alliance knew Earth was going to be attacked well before it happened, but they were on their own.

The Citadel is of joint-interest to many species. The Reapers will take unnecessary casulties by trying to take it.


[quote]No, there really isn't.  A full-on Reaper blitz is unstoppable, and if you don't know they're coming, chances are most ships won't even get to battlestations before getting roflstomped.[/quote]

The Reapers lost the element-of-surprise since ME1.