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[TJBartlemus]

Alien Number Six wrote...

BioWare listened to their fans and made a character based DLC for those who wanted more time with their favorite characters. Dispite Thane and Legion being left out for the most part that is what they got.

 As one of my friends has said recently, "They are all about integrity, hence not changing their
"vision" yet they appeal 100% to fans in the Citadel DLC?"

[Zeldrik1389]

The way I see it, Citadel dlc is clearly a fan service. So if you look for anything more than that, well, a great disappointment await. Anyhow, personally, I love it. Replayed it 6 or 7 times the past 2 weeks already, and still feel like doing it again. And seriously, going as far as answering some of the craziest fan questions (tali's sweat, etc...), I say, in some ways, BioWare do care about their fans, which is pretty awesome (compare to some other developers / publishers who don't give a **** about customers' feedback and keep releasing crap games after crap games). All in all, I think let's not over thinking it, just take Citadel for what it is: A fan service, a pleasant, emotional good bye to the series.

[Nightdragon8]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Alien Number Six wrote...

BioWare listened to their fans and made a character based DLC for those who wanted more time with their favorite characters. Dispite Thane and Legion being left out for the most part that is what they got.

 As one of my friends has said recently, "They are all about integrity, hence not changing their
"vision" yet they appeal 100% to fans in the Citadel DLC?"

.... the DLC didn't change the ending so... how was there "integrity" ruined by the DLC?

Yes it was a Happy go lucky DLC. And honestly I'm fine with that. Got to spend time with the ME characters and was happy to see Wrex going nuts and having fun killing people.

I bought the DLC mainly for the "final good-byes" for the teammates one last time. At least it wasn't just the Cameos we got.

For story meh. But the plot was classIC Sci-Fi stuff and I'm prefectly fine with that. Been a long time sence I have seen a decent "Clone" story that would pretty much fit in with what TIM would have done.

[TJBartlemus]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 As one of my friends has said recently, "They are all about integrity, hence not changing their
"vision" yet they appeal 100% to fans in the Citadel DLC?"

.... the DLC didn't change the ending so... how was there "integrity" ruined by the DLC?

 The whole point was on how BioWare stood by their work and wouldn't let it be changed because of integrity, which is why the won't add or change the endings. And then they go and turn around and take 100% of the feedback in this DLC. Now while it doesn't change the ending, they allowed the fans to influence their work. The fact they did that at all in light of their "integrity" sounds a little hypocritical to some people. So if they allow the fans to influence a DLC with feedback, why still so touchy on the endings?

[TJBartlemus]

 It just amazes me how people can be so one sided sometimes. A lot of people I have met, either love something or hate something but there is no inbetween at all. And they would defend their side blindly no matter how logical the arguement. It's sorta the same with the whole Citadel DLC discussion. Why can't people just have both opinions? You can like something, but yet still be able to critize things that you find wrong with it.

[chemiclord]

It's really not hard to understand.

Bioware's writing team felt their ending was extremely important to them. They wanted that "moral choice" and they weren't going to change it no matter how many times people complained on the BSN or other internet websites.

So yes, any feedback in the form of "FIX THE ENDING" went in one ear and out the other. Because they don't believe it's broken (whether you think they are right or wrong is quite bluntly irrelevant).

That didn't mean they weren't listening and took other suggestions to heart, and was willing to meet fans expectations on those elements. And thus, the Citadel DLC came to be.

[TJBartlemus]

chemiclord wrote...

It's really not hard to understand.

Bioware's writing team felt their ending was extremely important to them. They wanted that "moral choice" and they weren't going to change it no matter how many times people complained on the BSN or other internet websites.

So yes, any feedback in the form of "FIX THE ENDING" went in one ear and out the other. Because they don't believe it's broken (whether you think they are right or wrong is quite bluntly irrelevant).

That didn't mean they weren't listening and took other suggestions to heart, and was willing to meet fans expectations on those elements. And thus, the Citadel DLC came to be.

Though I may not agree on everything in the post, I will admit that was well said. 

[Froswald]

I love the DLC for all the silly little moments, but I have to do some thinking to pass it off in the game. I usually just do it right after Rannoch, as I figure the light hearted mood (if you saved both sides) with the feeling of success, coupled with the repairs makes it fairly plausible. I'm just hoping DLC like this is just for a send-off for the series, which I can respect. Ultimately I want the DLC for a game to fit the game itself, and Citadel did not. It is not a bad DLC as some have said already, just out of place.

[mtmercydave09]

I love this DLC as well, I love it even more because it contrasts so much with the general mood of doom and gloom in the game. To me this makes it a much needed diversion that I play before raiding the Cerberus base if I do the ending at all.  That would be a good time to go to the Citadel for some repairs and a tuneup.

Sometimes I just use the Citadel DLC as the ending and skip raiding the Cerberus base and Priority:Earth altogether since I already know how it ends, or just make multiple saves that way I can replay either the end, the party, or the Citadel DLC mission.

Modifié par mtmercydave09, 03 avril 2013 - 04:43 .

[Coachdongwiffle]

My question is why does it have to fit within the story? It obviously for fans to enjoy. That's it nothing more nothing less. If it was important to the game it would of been in the game. Try not to look at it as anything more than Bioware giving fans one last chance to latch onto a world they loved. I wouldn't of cared it they made this happen while we were on Earth for the final mission. If this was your first time playing and you stopped to play it yeah sure it would seem weird. But virtually everyone that played this DLC just loaded up a save point and took off on a seperate adventure.

[samgurl775]

The lack of context really stands out when you play through the game from start to finish. When I first played it I did it with my character had already completed the game and it was fine, but when I did it with a new character everything felt weird and out of place.

HOWEVER, I really don't care, and it was the character DLC I had always hoped for.

[Cheesesack]

The whole artistic integrity argument again?

Mass Effect 3 stopped being art the second they asked people to pay for it. If you expect people to give you their hard earned cash for a product, you'd better make sure that product is satisfactory and lives up to expectations. You can't just do whatever you want, take everyone's money, then claim 'integrity' when they call you out on it being s**t. That's the exact OPPOSITE if integrity.

Games are part of the entertainment industry. They are made to be fun and entertaining. Alright, so maybe you get the occasional indie game that tries to break the mould, but for an AAA game like Mass Effect, it is obvious that it's intended purpose is to entertain the players. People will be more entertained if they get what they want. How many threads do you see in the lead up to releases called 'what features would you like' or 'what squadmates do you want to return' or 'what kind of scenes do you want to see'?

Now obviously, you can't make a game completely out of the fan's requests, because it would be a disjointed mess, and therefore, not actually enjoyable to anyone. The point is, you're still trying to give the fans what they want, it's just that if you do that in a too literal sense, you'l end up with something that they DON'T want.

Citadel was incredibly entertaining. It is a smaller part of a larger game that fulfils requests that fans have had since the start of the trilogy. It doesn't even have any impact on Bioware's 'artistic' endings (which is nothing more than a feeble excuse to try and defend the train-wreck that they made). Therefore, it is fine.

Modifié par Cheesesack, 03 avril 2013 - 08:54 .

[drayfish]

I've made this point elsewhere, but to me there does seem to be a legitimate contradiction in the claims of narrative and artistic 'integrity' that Bioware found so inviolable in the face of fan criticism, and the winking playfulness that defines the 'Citadel' DLC, no matter how joyous it was intended to be.

Bioware released a narrative that ended with a nonsensical, horrifyingly racist, hopelessly nihilistic message of intolerance. When people complained about that statement, particularly as the conclusion of a beloved series that had previously celebrated diversity, Bioware declared that they were unwilling to change anything about it (merely extend it), because otherwise it would harm the integrity of their story.

...But then they were willing to release an addition to that story (at an inflated price) that utterly undermines all of that narrative 'integrity' anyway?

A tale about an evil clone that somehow Cerberus also had the money for; a casino and sushi place to hang out in and chill while the universe burns; Javik and Shepard hooking up; filming a Blasto movie; breaking pull-up records; taking a soak in a hot tub; going dancing; romance movie sing-alongs; universe saving toothbrushes; kicking back alone in Anderson's luxury pad while outside refugees are being turned away to die because there is no room for them in the Citadel inn...?

To me, all of this farcically distracts from the perilous Reaper war arc of the main game, particularly (as you seemingly almost have to) if this DLC is played right before the final push for the Illusive Man's base. Admittedly it does all of this playfully, even joyously, but it's still an illogical, fourth-wall shattering gag-fest that betrays the dire tone of the remainder of the work.

It seems rather contradictory (even hypocritical) to claim that changing the ending so that it was not an endorsement of war-crimes somehow equals a betrayal of artistic integrity; but undermining the logic that supposedly justifies that
ending, and fundamentally belittling its tone by turning the whole story into an extended sitcom pilot, is somehow fine. To me that makes about as much sense as playing the Benny Hill theme song in the middle of a funeral dirge.

Modifié par drayfish, 03 avril 2013 - 11:07 .

[MetioricTest]

Wait if we enjoy Citadel because it's funny and happy... That means we must only hate the ending because it's not funny or happy?


What kind of insane idiotic logic is that?

[yesikareyes]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

So rather than "lets go on an adventure with Shepard" it more said to me "Lets go on an adventure together with Allan."

This line  Yeah, I felt like it was the last adventure with your team as a player. In Priority: Earth, it was mostly saying goodbye to your squadmates. In Citadel DLC, you are saying goodbye to your team, your Shepard, and the game as a whole. It's true, that this is most probably the last content players will play since this is the last DLC that came out. After experiencing everything in the past especially the whole ending debacle, Citadel DLC provided an excellent close for me. The last scene of the DLC says it all when Shepard gazes outside the Citadel docks and says...

"The best"  

[Ecrulis]

For my own personal purposes it had plenty of context, Install MEHEM, play through rannoch bring ship in for repairs, clone starts stuff, go finish game, have party celebrating the death of the reapers.

Requires a bit of head cannon but since there was never any chance of the original ending to be re-written anyway I may as well use what I have to actually still be able to enjoy the series. Thanks to the Citadel DLC and MEHEM I can do just that.

[robertthebard]

yesikareyes wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

So rather than "lets go on an adventure with Shepard" it more said to me "Lets go on an adventure together with Allan."

This line  Yeah, I felt like it was the last adventure with your team as a player. In Priority: Earth, it was mostly saying goodbye to your squadmates. In Citadel DLC, you are saying goodbye to your team, your Shepard, and the game as a whole. It's true, that this is most probably the last content players will play since this is the last DLC that came out. After experiencing everything in the past especially the whole ending debacle, Citadel DLC provided an excellent close for me. The last scene of the DLC says it all when Shepard gazes outside the Citadel docks and says...

"The best"  

I made it about 3/4 of the way through the first post before I started sensing a familiar pattern:  "They didn't use it to fix the ending, so even though I had fun with it, it sucked".

For myself, I'm about 1/3 of the way through it now, and frankly, I'm having fun with it.  I'm rather enjoying the references to Team Mako, and Team Hammerhead.  The Easter Eggs from Baldur's Gate on forward, and the general premise of the DLC.  I concur with Allan on this, it was my chance to do, with the entirety of my crew, what I do with the Normandy prior to Priority Earth, I walk all the decks, and say goodbye.  This is my chance to do that with the crew.  So thanks BioWare for putting it out there for us, I am enjoying it.

[TheRealJayDee]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Aye, it would have made more sense if Bioware had taken a Darkspawn Chronicles ‘alternative history’ approach to things instead of dumping their Hot Shots! Part Deux DLC slap bang into the middle of what is essentially a war story.

Gotta agree with that. Citadel was fun, no doubt about it, and I did enjoy it quite a lot, but to have it integrated as part of ME3's narrative is just seriously weird. It should have been post-ending, or since even that doesn't really work and with everything being as meta as it was preferably stand-alone content.

[MetioricTest]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Aye, it would have made more sense if Bioware had taken a Darkspawn Chronicles ‘alternative history’ approach to things instead of dumping their Hot Shots! Part Deux DLC slap bang into the middle of what is essentially a war story.

Gotta agree with that. Citadel was fun, no doubt about it, and I did enjoy it quite a lot, but to have it integrated as part of ME3's narrative is just seriously weird. It should have been post-ending, or since even that doesn't really work and with everything being as meta as it was preferably stand-alone content.

It works quite well after the Cerberus Citadel invasion.

You're AT the Citadel, Turians are holding Palaven, Normandy needs to be repaired

[Ecrulis]

MetioricTest wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Aye, it would have made more sense if Bioware had taken a Darkspawn Chronicles ‘alternative history’ approach to things instead of dumping their Hot Shots! Part Deux DLC slap bang into the middle of what is essentially a war story.

Gotta agree with that. Citadel was fun, no doubt about it, and I did enjoy it quite a lot, but to have it integrated as part of ME3's narrative is just seriously weird. It should have been post-ending, or since even that doesn't really work and with everything being as meta as it was preferably stand-alone content.

It works quite well after the Cerberus Citadel invasion.

You're AT the Citadel, Turians are holding Palaven, Normandy needs to be repaired

or after rannoch, and for those who have MEHEM or choose high EMS destroy its not hard to headcannon the party and meet-ups as a few months after the end of ME3

[mtmercydave09]

Ecrulis wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Aye, it would have made more sense if Bioware had taken a Darkspawn Chronicles ‘alternative history’ approach to things instead of dumping their Hot Shots! Part Deux DLC slap bang into the middle of what is essentially a war story.

Gotta agree with that. Citadel was fun, no doubt about it, and I did enjoy it quite a lot, but to have it integrated as part of ME3's narrative is just seriously weird. It should have been post-ending, or since even that doesn't really work and with everything being as meta as it was preferably stand-alone content.

It works quite well after the Cerberus Citadel invasion.

You're AT the Citadel, Turians are holding Palaven, Normandy needs to be repaired

or after rannoch, and for those who have MEHEM or choose high EMS destroy its not hard to headcannon the party and meet-ups as a few months after the end of ME3

Agreed, especially since in high EMS destroy we see that parts of the Citadel are still intact, meaning Shep's apartment isn't damaged.  That and Shep lives, so I'm sure he could find his way back to his apartment, get all cleaned up, and radio the Normandy.

Modifié par mtmercydave09, 05 avril 2013 - 08:27 .