49 réponses à ce sujet

[SinerAthin]

The Reapers were just doing what they had been doing all the time; wrecking the mortal fleets. I do not think anyone informed them of any changes.

Maybe two Reapers just went;
Reaper 1: "Hey Jerry, w00tz dat big thing that just attached itself to the citadel?"
Reaper 2: "I don't know, Sammy. Maybe a last dirty joke from a dying race?"
Reaper 1: "Hey, he-hey, Jerry, wanna see what happens when I shoot my laser at it?"
Reaper 2: "Yeah, that sounds like a great idea, Sammy!"

*BZZZZOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIIMPH*

And then the Crucible and Sheperd blew up.

Modifié par SinerAthin, 17 mars 2013 - 08:57 .

[AlanC9]

andy69156915 wrote...
When you go up there with low EMS and destroy is the only option, he's sounds really angry. That anger is because he knows that he doesn't even have a chance to avoiding destroy, there's no options but that. Yet he still has to bring you up there even though you coming up angers him so much. Kind of telling actually (doesn't want you up there=brings you up anyway=clearly not a being in control of themselves).

Note that he's also angry in low-EMS Control. Not really a problem for the theory, since Control isn't much better from his perspective.

[RedBeardJim]

andy69156915 wrote...

The Crucible was forcing him to relay information whether he liked it or not, even forcing him to bring up the destroy option when it was the number 1 thing he DIDN'T want chosen... And even explain how to do it. He also hated control, but was forced to mention it too. He didn't have a say in anything. If I decide to choose destroy or control, the best he can do is whine about it because he has absolutely no recourse to stop me. He can't even try a lie of omission, because the Crucible wasn't letting him do that either. Best he can do is make the Reapers destroy the Crucible before Shepard does something it doesn't like.

How can the Crucible force the Catalyst to do anything? Doesn't he say that it's just a power source? How could it be designed to force the Catalyst to do anything, if the people designing it (bit by bit) had no way to know of the Catalyst's existence, let alone its nature?

For that matter, how could the designers of the Crucible possibly incorporate the Citadel into its design, given that once each cycle starts, they immediately lost access to the Citadel?

[tevix]

@Redbeardjim

The catalyst isn't being entirely honest, this has even been thrown around by a few BW employees.

We are never told at any point during it's construction exactly what the crucible is or what it does. This may be intentional, and we have to try to figure out (maybe even head canon) it's true design from what happens when it's engaged.

Andy's post makes perfect sense, and I fully support it. There's no reason for the catalyst to say "Well...hey...SHEPARDS here...s--- just got real. Alright! Now we do things differently...cause...ya know...it's the SHEPARD!"

Just...no.

Although that blows my theory of why harbinger doesn't kill shepard out of the water...I still like Andy's post.

[andy6915]

@RedBeardJim


The Catalyst is the processor of the Citadel, and the Crucible pretty much hacks it when it docks. It took control of the Catalyst by proxy of controlling the Citadel. Hack the Citadel=hack the Catalyst. Prior knowledge of the Catalyst was not needed, controlling one is controlling the other. It was forcing the Citadel to give you the information on the different options, and the Catalyst just happened to be the mouthpiece for it because it's pretty much the mind and voice of the station. He became the interface of the Crucible because of his connection to the Citadel.

Also, if anyone wonders why I think this... He brings you up on that elevator on low EMS even though he doesn't want you anywhere near him because he knows destroy will be what you're going to do. He also personally brings up destroy and control himself without prodding, 2 things he absolutely detests, even though he could have just lied and said that those weren't options or just not mention them at all. Heck, with control he's pretty much "I don't want to be replaced or controlled by YOU!" and Shepard's pretty much "suck it up, I don't give a damn what your opinion is, control it is".

If the Catalyst wasn't being controlled, then the Catalyst is choosing to do thing he hates and has no reason to do whatsoever. Moreover, he won the moment you collapsed at the control panel. That was it, gameover, Reapers win. So why bring you up, if he's not being forced to? Especially when he doesn't even WANT you up there.

Modifié par andy69156915, 17 mars 2013 - 10:56 .

[tevix]

And Andy lays the smackdown on this thread a second time.

Wonder if it will get up for a third?

[FlamingBoy]

because they weren't going to pay for a crucible destruction animation

[andy6915]

I admit, although I posted an explanation about how the Crucible can hack the Catalyst... I'm not actually entirely sure how that works. But it's irrelevant in the end. The fact is, the Catalyst is acting like someone who is being forced to say and do things again their will. His actions don't make sense and in fact contradict themselves (bringing you up and then being mad that he brought you up like it's your fault). Saying self destructive things that are, at best, going to ruin everything he's done for the last hundreds of trillions of years (bringing up destroy all by himself). The Reaper's are trying (and succeed if you waste time) to destroy the Crucible the entire time you're talking and deciding proving that he really doesn't like the Crucible even if his WORDS say otherwise. The sudden changing of its personality and actions the moment you decide you won't pick any of the Crucibles options, it going from "I have new possibilities I wish to politely discuss with you" to "I win, you all DIE" in the span of a few seconds as if he was freed of mind control (much like the fast personality change of people when controlled by Leviathan to after the control is broken).


All signs point to it being in no control over itself. The crucible hacking it is the ONLY explanation that makes its contradictory words and actions and oddities make sense. How it does it, I don't 100% know. But DOES it do it? All evidence and logic points to yes.

Modifié par andy69156915, 17 mars 2013 - 11:14 .

[RedBeardJim]

I agree andy, the Catalyst's actions make no sense, but that's perfectly consistent because *nothing* about the Crucible or Catalyst makes *any damn sense*. You can't hack something that you don't know exists. You can't build a machine to interface the Citadel when you have no way to get your machine to the Citadel.

Edit: I'm sorry, I'm coming across grouchier than the subject deserves.

Modifié par RedBeardJim, 17 mars 2013 - 11:46 .

[JasonShepard]

andy69156915 wrote...

The crucible hacking it is the ONLY explanation that makes its contradictory words and actions and oddities make sense.

ONLY? I think not... 

An alternative explanation to "The Crucible hacked the Catalyst" is "The Crucible blocked the Catalyst's Control". In this version, everything the Catalyst says is sincere, but the Crucible is blocking it from from currently controlling the Reapers. There is evidence for this in the original script, which included the Catalyst saying something along the lines of: "But you must act. I can't proceed. Go. If you don't, the cycle will continue, but I will no longer control the Reapers."

The Reapers destroy the Crucible because they're just following the Catalyst's last instructions, despite the fact that, after the Crucible connects, the Catalyst doesn't want them to do so. This also explains the Catalyst's constant insistence that it's running out of time to explain things to you and why, if it's willing to let you pick Control, it doesn't just let you tell it what to do.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 18 mars 2013 - 12:37 .

[knightnblu]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

It means the Catalyst wants one thing, for "the" Shepard to submit. And if that's not happening quick enough, he's content to keep the liquidations going forever. New solution my shiny metal ass.

Amen

[Reorte]

If the Catalyst was in complete control and wanted the Crucible used the Reapers wouldn't be trying to shoot it. IIRC one of the reasons the low EMS endings are worse is because it gets shot up on its way to the Citadel. I assume that hanging around and not doing anything just gives the Reapers enough time to destroy it. There's still the "why not just leave Shepard to bleed out if that's true" issue but IMO that's an error that needs addressing, not hanging around leading to Game Over.

[thearbiter1337]

Can someone get a vid of this?

I have the feeling it's just going to do the "SOOO BEEE IT" on me if i do it.

[MegaSovereign]

RedBeardJim wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

The Crucible was forcing him to relay information whether he liked it or not, even forcing him to bring up the destroy option when it was the number 1 thing he DIDN'T want chosen... And even explain how to do it. He also hated control, but was forced to mention it too. He didn't have a say in anything. If I decide to choose destroy or control, the best he can do is whine about it because he has absolutely no recourse to stop me. He can't even try a lie of omission, because the Crucible wasn't letting him do that either. Best he can do is make the Reapers destroy the Crucible before Shepard does something it doesn't like.

How can the Crucible force the Catalyst to do anything? Doesn't he say that it's just a power source? How could it be designed to force the Catalyst to do anything, if the people designing it (bit by bit) had no way to know of the Catalyst's existence, let alone its nature?

For that matter, how could the designers of the Crucible possibly incorporate the Citadel into its design, given that once each cycle starts, they immediately lost access to the Citadel?

Leviathan watched over the construction of the Crucible. Leviathans created the Catalyst... Put two and two together.

I don't think the Crucible "forced" the Catalyst directly. I actually believe that the Crucible temporarily changes the Catalyst's conclusion about the current solution. If you refuse or let the Crucible get destroyed, then the Catalyst commits to the old solution.

[Ticonderoga117]

SinerAthin wrote...

The Reapers were just doing what they had been doing all the time; wrecking the mortal fleets. I do not think anyone informed them of any changes.

Maybe two Reapers just went;
Reaper 1: "Hey Jerry, w00tz dat big thing that just attached itself to the citadel?"
Reaper 2: "I don't know, Sammy. Maybe a last dirty joke from a dying race?"
Reaper 1: "Hey, he-hey, Jerry, wanna see what happens when I shoot my laser at it?"
Reaper 2: "Yeah, that sounds like a great idea, Sammy!"

*BZZZZOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIIMPH*

And then the Crucible and Sheperd blew up.

Now, make both of those Reapers connected to a hive mind (The Catalyst) who knows what it is, is willing and wants to use it.

Now it's incredibly stupid.

[BSpud]

Fun Fact (I think): I believe the timer/game over screen was added with the EC. It wasn't in the original end choice scene. Somebody deliberately decided to put that in. No conjecture as to why or what it's supposed to imply. Would've been polite to warn you, though, with some of that nifty Jeopardy "Think Music."

[AlanC9]

I believe the timer was there in the original..... I thought it had been removed by the EC, actually

[Jonathan Sud]

Umm...maybe the ships protecting the Crucible couldn't protect it forever? Just maybe? Perhaps?

Derp.

[BSpud]

AlanC9 wrote...

I believe the timer was there in the original..... I thought it had been removed by the EC, actually

You're right, I had it backwards. youtu.be/qV1QyNumjZU

[Wesker1984]

JasonShepard wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

The crucible hacking it is the ONLY explanation that makes its contradictory words and actions and oddities make sense.

ONLY? I think not... 

An alternative explanation to "The Crucible hacked the Catalyst" is "The Crucible blocked the Catalyst's Control". In this version, everything the Catalyst says is sincere, but the Crucible is blocking it from from currently controlling the Reapers. There is evidence for this in the original script, which included the Catalyst saying something along the lines of: "But you must act. I can't proceed. Go. If you don't, the cycle will continue, but I will no longer control the Reapers."

The Reapers destroy the Crucible because they're just following the Catalyst's last instructions, despite the fact that, after the Crucible connects, the Catalyst doesn't want them to do so. This also explains the Catalyst's constant insistence that it's running out of time to explain things to you and why, if it's willing to let you pick Control, it doesn't just let you tell it what to do.

Where i can read the original script? Does it explain why the Catalyst have done nothing to stop the last protheans from altering the keepers signal with the Reapers?

[tevix]

The problem with Jason Shepard's argument is that if it was removed from the final script, it's no longer canon.

In addition, if the Catalyst WANTED shepard on board and wanted him to use the crucible, he could have stopped the reaper attacks LONG before the crucible docked.

[Wesker1984]

Since the actual script of Mass Effect 3 seems to be an altered version of the original scrip i take that cut contents as canon.

[tevix]

@Wesker

Every final script of any movie, book, or game is an altered version of the original.....

[Wesker1984]

Duh! I know that. Even if it not mentioned in the final game i'm sure this "The Crucible blocked the Catalyst's Control'' is still valid or at least a part of it.

[RedBeardJim]

tevix wrote...

The problem with Jason Shepard's argument is that if it was removed from the final script, it's no longer canon.

In addition, if the Catalyst WANTED shepard on board and wanted him to use the crucible, he could have stopped the reaper attacks LONG before the crucible docked.

If the Catalyst *didn't* want Shepard on board, it could have turned off the freaking beam.