369 réponses à ce sujet

[Dieb]

Now that I have your hatred and attention, let me explain.

After playing some ME2 again to take a nice, relaxing walk on Illium, I paid a lot more attention to Jack than in previous sessions, due to her presentation in Citadel, where she really grew on me all of  a sudden.

And there it struck me, something I never gave much thought about before:
If she really did everything she claims to have done in her past, it really makes her a downright terrible human being. And I don't mean as in having a "wild side", I mean she's a despicable murderer.  She tells you stories of executing civillians just for fun, and regretting she didn't murder the entire crew during one raid. When called on it, she just gives you a deluded, symphathy craving "it made me who I am today".

It's probably really just me, but I hate how you don't have a choice other than either accepting her "Aaaalright, look I'm sorry. Won't happen again. But you're a sissy for suggesting that." or not even try to talk her out of it during and especially after her loyality mission.

From an RP point of view:
I know that many characters kill people in this game, but with her specific approach to the matter, she'd be lucky if my Shepard hadn't just left her on Purgatory. I play my canon Shepard as a Ruthless/Colonist. He's seen death, he's responsible for hundreds of bodies on both sides during the assault on Torfan. He's a suicidal, depressed wreck of a man, a complete ass to everybody, but ultimately always doing the "right thing"  when things get real. While others might see him as a classic anti-hero, he's really just trying to stay sane; a desperate attempt to maybe someday clear his own conscience. Or die in the process, either choice being equally favourable.

That being said, he hates people with a comparable past, but who he thinks aren't at the same point where he is, but damn well should be. Jack is pretty much everything he's learned to hate about himself. Justifying all your selfish oulets for the hatred with some dubious right for revenge, just like he did.


Thoughts, opinions?

Modifié par Baelrahn, 17 mars 2013 - 01:23 .

[EarthboundNess]

I like Jack, but this did occur to me recently as well...

Still, think about some of the things Shepard does, even just getting Jack out of Purgatory. Releasing all the prisoners on that station without hesitation just to get to her, knowing full well what that meant for everybody aboard the place. Some of the prisoners also escaped (see Billy's message), allowing them to renew their crimes against the galaxy once more.

That's pretty monstrous too, when you think about it.

[GoldenPersona]

Nearly everyone you grow to love in these game is a mass murderer lol.

[Nykara]

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nearly everyone you grow to love in these game is a mass murderer lol.

There is a difference between killing someone in defense who is shooting at you then just outright going and killing someone for the hell of it. They also don't generally go around killing civilians for no reason. Just sayin'.

[jackmeup]

so wouldn't that example of her sparing the entire crew in the raid prove that she sometimes does the right thing making her just like your shepard cant call someone a murder if your shepard is going around murdering innocents

[spirosz]

When does she say she murdered those "civilians" for fun? I remember her saying it's easier. Also, from the way I view it, most of the people she hanged around with, were practically criminals, the whole underground scene, sure - those types of people could still have families and be loving to them, but that doesn't excuse them for their past, even with Jack. I view it personally as Jack living in a dog-eat-dog world.

Also, what do you expect, especially from her point of view and what she was melded into because of Cerberus.

Modifié par spirosz, 17 mars 2013 - 01:19 .

[nos_astra]

Baelrahn wrote...
Thoughts, opinions?

It's pretty much why I appreciate her character a lot less than I could.

The concept is ok. I like the animations, the tatoos, the voice acting ... it's all good. But there is also the rage, the hate, the pain, the violence barely kept in check, all for good reasons, but they just vanish. Just like that.

A few months later she's a freakin' teacher.

That's not how you treat such a character. 

She should have been optional. I wouldn't even recruit her if I could avoid it but since I can't I get her killed in the suicide mission.

[spirosz]

I like the teacher aspect, but I don't like it happening over a course of six months, it still feels unnatural to me.

[GoldenPersona]

Nykara wrote...

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nearly everyone you grow to love in these game is a mass murderer lol.

There is a difference between killing someone in defense who is shooting at you then just outright going and killing someone for the hell of it. They also don't generally go around killing civilians for no reason. Just sayin'.

Murder is murder, no matter how sentient life tries to twist the definition to justify it. Sentient life doesn't have the right to decide between good and bad, there is no such thing. Murder is murder. The intentional killing of life.

Any kind of circumstance, situation, justification that sentient life tries to add onto it to heal their concious is BS.

I'm not questioning their morals or anything. It's just that murdering to save another's life is still murder. Even if it's to save your own life. Murder is murder lol.

You know that nice kid in ME2 whose gun you can jam? Well he is a nice kid trying to get by, and if you don't jam the gun Garrus kills him. Garrus kills a good soul that's just confused. Who knows how many mercs are like that?

Take Jacob's loyalty mission where you shoot and kill the hunters. The hunters are the real victims, but we shoot them anyway. To survive? Sure, but it's still murder.

Modifié par GoldenPersona, 17 mars 2013 - 01:26 .

[Dieb]

I do know that she's a product of her past & respective crowds.


I guess what I'm really trying to say is, that I wished for the option to be a lot less forgiving, easy-going or even downright ignorant in regards to her behaviour.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 17 mars 2013 - 01:24 .

[spirosz]

Baelrahn wrote...

I do know that she's a product of her past & respective crowds.


I guess what I'mreally  trying to say is, that I wished for the option to be a lot less forgiving, easy-going or even ignorant in regards to her behaviour.

That's fair.  

[KainD]

Baelrahn wrote...

I guess what I'm really trying to say is, that I wished for the option to be a lot less forgiving, easy-going or even downright ignorant in regards to her behaviour.

Options are good yes.

[nos_astra]

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nykara wrote...

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nearly everyone you grow to love in these game is a mass murderer lol.

There is a difference between killing someone in defense who is shooting at you then just outright going and killing someone for the hell of it. They also don't generally go around killing civilians for no reason. Just sayin'.

Murder is murder, no matter how sentient life tries to twist the definition to justify it. Sentient life doesn't have the right to decide between good and bad, there is no such thing. Murder is murder. The intentional killing of life.

Any kind of circumstance, situation, justification that sentient life tries to add onto it to heal their concious is BS.

That's nonsense.

Nonsentient life kills, too. And it lacks the self-awareness to apply labels to it.

While I agree that there is way too much mindless shooting in ME that doesn't make Jack's character arc any less shallow and inappropriate.

[Rhayak]

I personally think that's true on a Shepard-by-Shepard basis.

My main is a Colonist-Survivor, profoundly scarred by the events of Mindoir and Akuze, and bitter at the recent realization (during Arrival) that, no matter how many Batarians he kills, he'll never get over the massacre of his family and friends.

He is still a disciplined soldier. He is capable of affection, open-mindedness and altruism toward the weak and defenseless, and kills only when necessary.
Yet, he can't avoid feeling a deep satisfaction when he hears his enemies' whimpering in agony, their bones pulverized by his biotic charge.
He is a split person. A kind soul suspended over an ever-renewing furnace of hatred. The only place outside of a battlefield where he truly finds peace is in Liara's arms.

So it's natural that he relates to Jack's plight. Expecially when she says that "when she kills, she feels like her chances of survival increase".
The reason he dislikes her is because she's a b.... rather rude person.

My Adept, on the other hand, is a total boyscout and hates her.

Modifié par Rhayak, 17 mars 2013 - 01:34 .

[GoldenPersona]

klarabella wrote...

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nykara wrote...

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nearly everyone you grow to love in these game is a mass murderer lol.

There is a difference between killing someone in defense who is shooting at you then just outright going and killing someone for the hell of it. They also don't generally go around killing civilians for no reason. Just sayin'.

Murder is murder, no matter how sentient life tries to twist the definition to justify it. Sentient life doesn't have the right to decide between good and bad, there is no such thing. Murder is murder. The intentional killing of life.

Any kind of circumstance, situation, justification that sentient life tries to add onto it to heal their concious is BS.

That's nonsense.

Nonsentient life kills, too. And it lacks the self-awareness to apply labels to it.

While I agree that there is way too much mindless shooting in ME that doesn't make Jack's character arc any less shallow and inappropriate.

Here is my updated response.

Murder is murder, no matter how sentient life tries to twist the definition to justify it. Sentient life doesn't have the right to decide between good and bad, there is no such thing. Murder is murder. The intentional killing of life.

Any kind of circumstance, situation, justification that sentient life tries to add onto it to heal their concious is BS.

I'm not questioning their morals or anything. It's just that murdering to save another's life is still murder. Even if it's to save your own life. Murder is murder lol.

You know that nice kid in ME2 whose gun  you can jam? Well he is a nice kid trying to get by, and if you don't jam the gun Garrus kills him. Garrus kills a good soul that's just confused. Who knows how many mercs are like that?

Take Jacob's loyalty mission where you shoot and kill the hunters. The hunters are the real victims, but we shoot them anyway. To survive? Sure, but it's still murder.

I'm going by the most base an direct definition of murder. All the circumstances and whatnot attached to pretty up the idea of murder is meaningless. It's murder.

Also a nonsenient life killing a sentient life form isn't murder. If a person drowns you don't call the water a murderer. If someone is killed by a knife you don't call the knife a murderer. If a person dies in a tragic explosion, the explosion isn't a murderer. Nonsentient life is put into that same category, a freak accident.

Modifié par GoldenPersona, 17 mars 2013 - 01:32 .

[Reorte]

GoldenPersona wrote...

I'm going by the most base an direct definition of murder. All the circumstances and whatnot attached to pretty up the idea of murder is meaningless. It's murder.

No, it isn't. Murder is not a synonym for killing.

[nos_astra]

GoldenPersona wrote...
I'm going by the most base an direct definition of murder. All the circumstances and whatnot attached to pretty up the idea of murder is meaningless. It's murder.

I have a feeling you apply the label murder to the most basic definition of killing because it suits your argument.

[KainD]

GoldenPersona wrote...

Murder is murder, no matter how sentient life tries to twist the definition to justify it. Sentient life doesn't have the right to decide between good and bad, there is no such thing. Murder is murder. The intentional killing of life.

Any kind of circumstance, situation, justification that sentient life tries to add onto it to heal their concious is BS.

I'm not questioning their morals or anything. It's just that murdering to save another's life is still murder. Even if it's to save your own life. Murder is murder lol.

Except different people have different morals, and for some murder is not a problem at all, and it doesn't even need to be "justified" in their concious, it's just perfectly fine and acceptable to them to begin with.

The kind of compass and morals that a person has is however dependant on the enviroment that the person was raised in. 

[Steelcan]

Jack can join the list. Wrex was a mercenary for centuries, Miranda was the second in command of a notorious terrorist organization, Morinth makes Jack look cuddly by comparison, Samara kills without remorse or hesitation, Zaeed....well he's Zaeed. Jack is pretty par for the course

[Zazzerka]

You're right, OP.

It still really hurts my feelings that she called my Shepard a p*ssy.

Modifié par GT Zazzerka, 17 mars 2013 - 02:08 .

[Megaton_Hope]

I really wouldn't bring Jack on my spaceship, myself.

I don't blame her for being messed up - her background would mess anybody up - but not everybody with a traumatic past turns to murder as a panacea.

[KainD]

Steelcan wrote...

Jack can join the list. Wrex was a mercenary for centuries, Miranda was the second in command of a notorious terrorist organization, Morinth makes Jack look cuddly by comparison, Samara kills without remorse or hesitation, Zaeed....well he's Zaeed. Jack is pretty par for the course

You forgot an Assassin Thane. Kasumi which is a thief who kinda shadowstrikes those random guards, who just work there. Grunt, who likes to smash stuff. Garrus who takes justice and execution into his own hands. 

Modifié par KainD, 17 mars 2013 - 02:12 .

[Mikael507]

You have a point and I always disliked Jack somewhat, but I still appreciate the depth that has been put into that character. She is one of the most unique characters I have seen in a video game.

[Saiyan1126]

GoldenPersona wrote...

Murder is murder, no matter how sentient life tries to twist the definition to justify it. Sentient life doesn't have the right to decide between good and bad, there is no such thing. Murder is murder. The intentional killing of life.

Any kind of circumstance, situation, justification that sentient life tries to add onto it to heal their concious is BS.

I'm not questioning their morals or anything. It's just that murdering to save another's life is still murder. Even if it's to save your own life. Murder is murder lol.

You know that nice kid in ME2 whose gun  you can jam? Well he is a nice kid trying to get by, and if you don't jam the gun Garrus kills him. Garrus kills a good soul that's just confused. Who knows how many mercs are like that?

I'm going by the most base an direct definition of murder. All the circumstances and whatnot attached to pretty up the idea of murder is meaningless. It's murder.

Murder: the unlawful killing of one human by another.

Self defense is legal, thus isn't murder. Also, Garrus isn't human, so yeah...

[Dude_in_the_Room]

Everytime I look at her I think I'm going to get some disease.