369 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Abstract]

were all crazy

[CronoDragoon]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
And Jack is full of s***. She's a braggart. She didn't do half the stuff she said she did.

I was going to come in here and post the same thing. I'm willing to bet she didn't kill that couple that took her share; more likely they stole her share then skipped out on her, and now she fibs that she killed them as some sort of self-punishing wish fulfillment. If we're supposed to take her ME3 personality at Grissom seriously then she isn't as broken as she claims to be while trying to push Shepard away.

[KingNothing125]

Hmm so now some people think Jack is a liar? That's a new one.

[FlyingSquirrel]

And I'm still haunted when I do Jacob's loyalty mission. These hunters aren't guilty of anything more than what Jacob's dad did and yet you have to mindlessly slaughter your way through them to reach his dad. At least in ME1 you don't have to kill the colonists. In Jacob's loyalty mission you have to kill to advance.

I agree, though I saw that as more a flaw in the mission design - i.e. throwing in more combat - than something that was supposed to reflect on Shepard's character or that of the squad. I usually just have Shepard punch them or use other plausibly non-lethal means like biotic throws and figure I'm just knocking them out.

[Goneaviking]

KingNothing125 wrote...

Hmm so now some people think Jack is a liar? That's a new one.

Not so much a liar as someone who has a vested interest in making herself seem too dangerous to mess with.

[Raanz]

Jack is a caricature. Cliche after cliche. Just my opinion.

[Kabraxal]

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nykara wrote...

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nearly everyone you grow to love in these game is a mass murderer lol.

There is a difference between killing someone in defense who is shooting at you then just outright going and killing someone for the hell of it. They also don't generally go around killing civilians for no reason. Just sayin'.

Murder is murder, no matter how sentient life tries to twist the definition to justify it. Sentient life doesn't have the right to decide between good and bad, there is no such thing. Murder is murder. The intentional killing of life.

Any kind of circumstance, situation, justification that sentient life tries to add onto it to heal their concious is BS.

I'm not questioning their morals or anything. It's just that murdering to save another's life is still murder. Even if it's to save your own life. Murder is murder lol.

You know that nice kid in ME2 whose gun you can jam? Well he is a nice kid trying to get by, and if you don't jam the gun Garrus kills him. Garrus kills a good soul that's just confused. Who knows how many mercs are like that?

Take Jacob's loyalty mission where you shoot and kill the hunters. The hunters are the real victims, but we shoot them anyway. To survive? Sure, but it's still murder.

Nope.  Murder is killing an innocent... killing sentient life is competely justified if it is trying to kill or enslave you or those you care about.  

As for Jack... she did some rough things in a rough crowd.  I mean, no one she hang around before Shepard did anything but try to use her.

[CronoDragoon]

KingNothing125 wrote...

Hmm so now some people think Jack is a liar? That's a new one.

I'm not trying to put down her character by saying she lies. It reminds me of the classic Ocean's Eleven exchange:

Jula Roberts: You're a liar and a thief.
George Clooney: I only lied about being a thief.

She lies to push people away and to create an image that provides disincentive to messing with her. I don't think she's lying about all the stories she tells, but I have my doubts she's painting an entirely accurate picture.

[Clayless]

Kabraxal wrote...

Nope.  Murder is killing an innocent... killing sentient life is competely justified if it is trying to kill or enslave you or those you care about.  

As for Jack... she did some rough things in a rough crowd.  I mean, no one she hang around before Shepard did anything but try to use her.

Murder is unlawful killing. It makes no difference if they're innocent or not.

[sravenblood]

This is exactly why I never liked Jack, or Thane. Cold Blooded murder isn't acceptable. The other's from ME2, while they had high body counts, it wasn't murder. Killing is different than murder.

Thane and Jack are murderers, not killers. Zaed can be a murderer, but you can stop him. He was a bounty hunter, so his killings were of criminals. Not the same as murdering someone who hasn't done anything to you. Garrus killed criminals, not civvies. The other's killed either in self defense, war or other means, not murdering for no reason.

So yes, Jack is deplorable and so is Thane. Strong reasons I never liked them.

[CronoDragoon]

Robosexual wrote...

Murder is unlawful killing. It makes no difference if they're innocent or not.

Unlawful pre-meditated killing, but yeah. "Innocence" doesn't define murder. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Goneaviking wrote...

KingNothing125 wrote...

Hmm so now some people think Jack is a liar? That's a new one.

Not so much a liar as someone who has a vested interest in making herself seem too dangerous to mess with.

QFT

Bold mine. I've thought about Jack for a while. Yeah, she's got a rap sheet. She did some bad things. That stuff she tells the truth about. The up close and personal stuff? No. That's BS. That's her talking big. If she was a cold-blooded killer, she wouldn't have hesitated one second with Aresh. You had a choice: talk her out of killing him, which is what she really wanted you to do (Paragon); OR call her on her bulls*** about enjoying killing him which is exactly what she didn't want to do (Renegade).

She got in with a bad crowd. Did any of you listen to her story? In between the lines people. The woman was assaulted and raped numerous times, and she had enough of it. So now, she just doesn't want to be messed with. She doesn't trust anyone, least of all Cerberus. You have to earn her trust.

She is not beyond redemption. It is why when I've role played the Suicide Mission I've always picked her to hold the bubble. She's a survivor. Of anyone, including Samara, she's going to be the most focused.

[Kabraxal]

Robosexual wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Nope.  Murder is killing an innocent... killing sentient life is competely justified if it is trying to kill or enslave you or those you care about.  

As for Jack... she did some rough things in a rough crowd.  I mean, no one she hang around before Shepard did anything but try to use her.

Murder is unlawful killing. It makes no difference if they're innocent or not.

And man could make it a law you can't kill your slave master or those trying to kill you... still wouldn't be murder. 

Modifié par Kabraxal, 18 mars 2013 - 02:59 .

[spirosz]

simfamSP wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Jack's no worse than the rest of the crew. Thane? Assassin, professional murderer. Miranda? Kills Wilson without a second though. Garrus? Body count in the hundreds.

Jack is an image. She paints it on herself, a facade of what she truly is. During our conversations we know she's had a colourful background, yet they all retain a similar pattern: they all involve groups. Cults, pirates, gangs and thugs. You cannot forgive what she has done, but why she's done it is pretty much evident.

Family.

She's had none. She also has no identity, no past, no nothing beyond what happened to her in Cerberus' labs. The violence and the experiments obviously shaped her, made her into the angry soul she is, and probably why she seeks some sort of revenge on society. The image lies with those tatoos, and those tales of murder, lust and chaos. That's her rebellion, her symbolic **** you to what society has made her. I sure as hell don't believe everything she tells us. 

Yes, she is a cynic, but that's because everyone she's had relations with screwed her over, it doesn't take away the wanting to belong somewhere. The Renegade romance doesn't help anything at all, other than the fact that Shepard stayed to the end. The Paragon is a little more revealing to just how much of a wreck she is. However, both are sides of the same coin, clearly telling us Jack's "predicament" revolves around trust more than love. And I think she found that in ME2.

The transition might be jarring, but Jack's 'psycho' state doesn't really strike me as untreatable. She's a cold-blooded killer, no doubt about that, but she isn't Batman's Joker. What she found in ME2 only helped her to do something she cares about. Look at the links! She was a biotic student; these kids are biotic students, there's a lot more to relate here. Deep down, these kids represent a part of Jack that was long ago lost, and perhaps this is why she cares so much for them.

If Planescape: Torment taught us anything is that regret can change the nature of a man. And as cheesy as that sounds, it applies to many characters in ME2. Thane, Garrus, Miranda, Samara and yes, Jack. What does she regret? That image, the image she casted on herself to hide her fragility, to hide all that she was in order to survive a world surrounded by criminals, thugs, psychopaths and killers. An image that was partly her fault to begin with. And I think she knows that too.

[Clayless]

Kabraxal wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Nope.  Murder is killing an innocent... killing sentient life is competely justified if it is trying to kill or enslave you or those you care about.  

As for Jack... she did some rough things in a rough crowd.  I mean, no one she hang around before Shepard did anything but try to use her.

Murder is unlawful killing. It makes no difference if they're innocent or not.

And man could make it a law you can't kill your slave master or those trying to kill you... still wouldn't be murder. 

If you were a slave you would probably be treated as property, so no it most likely wouldn't be considered murder. If there were laws against self defense but not killing then you could always avoid that law by saying you were the one that wanted to kill them, rather than the one that acted in self-defense.

[Han Shot First]

Goneaviking wrote...

KingNothing125 wrote...

Hmm so now some people think Jack is a liar? That's a new one.

Not so much a liar as someone who has a vested interest in making herself seem too dangerous to mess with.

Pretty much this.

If she isn't lying her paragon makeover in ME3 doesn't make a lot of sense. I think she's killed plenty of mercs, pirates, and other criminals, but I don't think she's killed innocent civilians.

[Vespervin]

Solution: Get her killed during the Suicide Mission.

[M2S SOLID JOSH]

if vegeta who destroyed entire planets can get a second chance why not jack? it obvious her past made her the way she is and shepard kinda got her out of it. she still likes the killing but only to people who deserve it. thats a-ok for me

[Goneaviking]

sravenblood wrote...

This is exactly why I never liked Jack, or Thane. Cold Blooded murder isn't acceptable. The other's from ME2, while they had high body counts, it wasn't murder. Killing is different than murder.

Thane and Jack are murderers, not killers. Zaed can be a murderer, but you can stop him. He was a bounty hunter, so his killings were of criminals. Not the same as murdering someone who hasn't done anything to you. Garrus killed criminals, not civvies. The other's killed either in self defense, war or other means, not murdering for no reason.

So yes, Jack is deplorable and so is Thane. Strong reasons I never liked them.

What Garrus did on Omega was cold blooded. He picked his targets, planned the ambushes and escapes, acquired materials as needed and recruited others to help him do it. 

Jack kills out of paranoia and fear.

Garrus is a lot closer to Thane than Jack is in their approach to violence and death.

[thehomeworld]

I felt she was an unnecessary character I got to purgatory for this Jack fellow and the more I heard the more I wanted to leave and was hoping to have a moment to cancel the transaction after meeting the prisoner who wishes to join you till you say you're going on a suicide mission I was like why do I need this psycho when I've got plenty of well adjusted biotics to choose from infact I already have the top 2 on my ship why do a I need a 3rd?

Then throughout the game she consistently shows why she's not needed on any missions other then piracy plain and simple BW wrote her onto the wrong ship and her job was covered by 3 biotics already all of whom were mentally competent and her fashion sense was not required.

Modifié par thehomeworld, 18 mars 2013 - 03:36 .

[KingNothing125]

Han Shot First wrote...

If she isn't lying her paragon makeover in ME3 doesn't make a lot of sense. I think she's killed plentyof mercs, pirates, and other criminals, but I don't think she's killed innocent civilians.

Well, I don't believe she's ever killed innocent civilians either, except perhaps incidentally, say during a pirating raid. But that doesn't mean she needs to lie to put up a tough front. I believe every word out of her mouth.

When Javik wants to touch her at the Citadel party (to read her), she says he doesn't need to touch her. He only needs to ask and she'll tell him everything.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Bold mine. I've thought about Jack for a while. Yeah, she's got a rap sheet. She did some bad things. That stuff she tells the truth about. The up close and personal stuff? No. That's BS. That's her talking big. If she was a cold-blooded killer, she wouldn't have hesitated one second with Aresh. You had a choice: talk her out of killing him, which is what she really wanted you to do (Paragon); OR call her on her bulls*** about enjoying killing him which is exactly what she didn't want to do (Renegade).

She got in with a bad crowd. Did any of you listen to her story? In between the lines people. The woman was assaulted and raped numerous times, and she had enough of it. So now, she just doesn't want to be messed with. She doesn't trust anyone, least of all Cerberus. You have to earn her trust.

She is not beyond redemption. It is why when I've role played the Suicide Mission I've always picked her to hold the bubble. She's a survivor. Of anyone, including Samara, she's going to be the most focused.

As for the "up close and personal" comment, I'm not quite sure how you could come to such a conclusion. If you believe her about her prison rape story, then shouldn't you also believe her about killing her assailants? That was no doubt up close and personal... life in prison sort of necessitates it.

We've both read between the lines, and we've apparently come up with different conclusions.

Renegade Shepard isn't "calling her on her BS". He's just being the standard Douchebag Renegade Shepard. Renegade Shepard doesn't understand Jack. That's why he tells her to kill Aresh. Because why the F not? Jack's just a killer to him, and it's probably what Renegade Shepard would do.

The hesitation in her voice and in her actions is due to the soul searching she's done since being back on Pragia. She wants revenge, but she also wants to leave it all behind and move on. She doesn't have a reason to kill Aresh, so why do it? Is more killing really going to help? Apparently, the story is a bit different than she remembers, and Aresh and the other kids may have helped make her escape possible.

Modifié par KingNothing125, 18 mars 2013 - 03:49 .

[Shaleist]

To earlier replies.... I mean the people that matter on the normandy. Non sqaddies are something between furniture and cargo with dialogue options

[Ykulnu]

Goneaviking wrote...

sravenblood wrote...

This is exactly why I never liked Jack, or Thane. Cold Blooded murder isn't acceptable. The other's from ME2, while they had high body counts, it wasn't murder. Killing is different than murder.

Thane and Jack are murderers, not killers. Zaed can be a murderer, but you can stop him. He was a bounty hunter, so his killings were of criminals. Not the same as murdering someone who hasn't done anything to you. Garrus killed criminals, not civvies. The other's killed either in self defense, war or other means, not murdering for no reason.

So yes, Jack is deplorable and so is Thane. Strong reasons I never liked them.

What Garrus did on Omega was cold blooded. He picked his targets, planned the ambushes and escapes, acquired materials as needed and recruited others to help him do it. 

Jack kills out of paranoia and fear.

Garrus is a lot closer to Thane than Jack is in their approach to violence and death.

False. Garrus only attacked criminals that messed with innocents in a retaliatory manner on a station that has no system of justice. He's basically Zaeed with no finder's fee.

Modifié par Ykulnu, 18 mars 2013 - 04:08 .

[Shaleist]

Cold blooded just means the act was planned and not a spur of the moment, in the heat of battle reflex....so YES Garrus IS cold blooded on Omega. Has nothing to do with just or unjust.