369 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Ykulnu wrote...

False. Garrus only attacked criminals that messed with innocents in a retaliatory manner on a station that has no system of justice. He's basically Zaeed with no finder's fee.

Allowing Garrus to kill Sidonis, which he is absolutely intending to do, is murder plain and simple. Some (me) might think it's justified but that's a different question. 

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 mars 2013 - 04:18 .

[Stakrin]

Agreed, which is why I never much liked Jack....*flameshield*

[Wayning_Star]

sravenblood wrote...

This is exactly why I never liked Jack, or Thane. Cold Blooded murder isn't acceptable. The other's from ME2, while they had high body counts, it wasn't murder. Killing is different than murder.

Thane and Jack are murderers, not killers. Zaed can be a murderer, but you can stop him. He was a bounty hunter, so his killings were of criminals. Not the same as murdering someone who hasn't done anything to you. Garrus killed criminals, not civvies. The other's killed either in self defense, war or other means, not murdering for no reason.

So yes, Jack is deplorable and so is Thane. Strong reasons I never liked them.

Now I'm kind of scared about what alienation really is defined as...

[Sajuro]

sravenblood wrote...

This is exactly why I never liked Jack, or Thane. Cold Blooded murder isn't acceptable. The other's from ME2, while they had high body counts, it wasn't murder. Killing is different than murder.

Thane and Jack are murderers, not killers. Zaed can be a murderer, but you can stop him. He was a bounty hunter, so his killings were of criminals. Not the same as murdering someone who hasn't done anything to you. Garrus killed criminals, not civvies. The other's killed either in self defense, war or other means, not murdering for no reason.

So yes, Jack is deplorable and so is Thane. Strong reasons I never liked them.

Unless of course the psychotic old mercenary took bounties from people other law enforcement, which considering he was in the Terminus systems and he got hired by Cerberus
Zaeed is a Boba Fett styled bounty hunter, not a real world Bounty Hunter. He can bring people in alive or dead and as long as you have the credits he doesn't give a crap if it is an underworld boss or a plucky Han Solo styled rogue.
He does have a chip on his shoulder for Vido, and he kills several innocent factory workers even if you sidetrack to save the majority of them.
Miranda killed Wilson when she could have restrained him and she wasn't in any immediate danger from Wilson
Wrex killed Fist not because he was a bad guy but because the Shadow Broker hired him to, making him the enforcer and he also raided a ship for Saren before, bugging out once Saren showed up.
Vega killed a batarian after starting a fight when he ripped a TV off of the wall, he actually killed multiple batarians

[KiwiQuiche]

I hate how people use the "She was only a violent psycho because she was abused, she had no control over herself, she was conditioned!"
Yes she was, but that doesn't justify her going and killing other people and destroying property due to her angst.

For the others;
Garrus killed people on Omega where there is no government, so technically he didn't do a crime lol that and the people he killed were scumbags.
Thane is a hypocrite, trying to use the "body is not the soul" crap to escape his guilt- he still killed people for whatever reason, even politically so he's a killer of innocents.
Wrex is an old war dog, so yes he's a killer of innocents as well, I assume.
Miranda is part of a terrorist group who tries t make bullsh!t excuses for the crap Cerberus does, so I don't doubt she's killed aliens simply due to xenohobia.
Jacob is boring so who cares.
EDI killed all those marines on Lunar.
Ashley/Kaidan were soldiers, so they were justified. Kaidan killing that old turian, he made no excuses and got punished for it.
Samara follows asari laws and typically stays in asari space so she is doing work inside the law. She kills only mercenaries when out of asari space, who are all killers in uniform, which is covered by her law and she leaves with the officer when prompted.
Joker killed Shepard due to his ******-ness. Was pissed you couldn't lay into him with that.
Tali and Liara seem to be the only ones avoiding this. And maybe Legion, who isn't a heretic.

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

Thank you op, THANK YOU! I've never been a fan of Jack and have been so annoyed with her whiny ass. Being abused does not make it ok for you to be a killer. Simple as that. Come to think of it, why IT sent Shepard to recruit her, given how unstable she was, is a big plot hole.

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

Yeah, but she is one bad mother ****er.

In ME2 I hated her character, in ME3 she was awesome.

Maybe it was the better clothing and hair...or her badass personality.

[Dieb]

I don't hate Jack. Shepard does.
I think she is a very interesting character. She's just actually different from what I thought I knew.

P.S.: Hawke hated Anders. I think he's a very interesting character, too.

[Goneaviking]

Ykulnu wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

sravenblood wrote...

This is exactly why I never liked Jack, or Thane. Cold Blooded murder isn't acceptable. The other's from ME2, while they had high body counts, it wasn't murder. Killing is different than murder.

Thane and Jack are murderers, not killers. Zaed can be a murderer, but you can stop him. He was a bounty hunter, so his killings were of criminals. Not the same as murdering someone who hasn't done anything to you. Garrus killed criminals, not civvies. The other's killed either in self defense, war or other means, not murdering for no reason.

So yes, Jack is deplorable and so is Thane. Strong reasons I never liked them.

What Garrus did on Omega was cold blooded. He picked his targets, planned the ambushes and escapes, acquired materials as needed and recruited others to help him do it. 

Jack kills out of paranoia and fear.

Garrus is a lot closer to Thane than Jack is in their approach to violence and death.

False. Garrus only attacked criminals that messed with innocents in a retaliatory manner on a station that has no system of justice. He's basically Zaeed with no finder's fee.

It doesn't stop being murder just because they had it coming, and the fact that it wasn't personal to Garrus just makes it worse. There's nothing to suggest that his attacks were retaliation for specific acts, as opposed to "he's an officer in the blue suns, he clearly has it coming."

Zaeed is also a murderer, he is perfectly content with starting a fire that would kill all the workers in that refinery because it'll help him achieve his goal (which is a murder in its own right). I'd say he had a lot in common with Saren, except that Saren started his fire to help him achieve his mission whereas Zaeed started the fire despite it being the exact opposite of what his mission was meant to be.

Personally I don't recall Jack ever hinting that she'd killed someone that didn't have it coming. At least until Pragia, when she's confronted with evidence that suggested the way she remembered things might not have been the way they actually were.

If it's okay for Garrus to kill people because he thinks they've done something to deserve it, then it's okay for Jack to do it. The fact that she doesn't have a batarian hacker helping out doesn't make her judgements any more arbitrary.

[Helios969]

Jack is a product of her environment...she is able to grow and evolve as a person and therefore redeemable. Now, TIM is aweful human being. He epitomizes everything evil humans are capable of being. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. He is beyond redemption.

[w0lfam0da1s]

favoritehookeronthecitadel wrote...

Thank you op, THANK YOU! I've never been a fan of Jack and have been so annoyed with her whiny ass. Being abused does not make it ok for you to be a killer. Simple as that. Come to think of it, why IT sent Shepard to recruit her, given how unstable she was, is a big plot hole.

You could think of it as he wanted his property back. They spent all that time into making her what she is and wanted to use that hate for them on the Collectors.

The enemy becomes your friend.  So to speak.

Take that how you will

Have A Good Day

[Kabooooom]

Don't care, still hit it.

[Vlk3]

Hmm...If some of you want the characters in game to be completely innocent, maybe you should start playing games like The Sims? Shepard needs people, who can kill and are good at it. Also, there is a huge difference between being a murderer and mass murderer. There's also a difference between murderer and a person, who kills when he/she needs to or because it is his/her job. Do you call every soldier a murderer?

As for Jack, well, when you put it this way, I think I may recall being not so sure about recruiting her on my first playthrough. I like her now, but I was wondering too, how come anyone let her teach.


Edit: Oh, how could I forget. I'll just leave it here:


“The measure of an individual can be difficult to discern by actions alone.”

Modifié par Vlk3, 18 mars 2013 - 03:26 .

[garrusfan1]

I agree but I think that she is now after shep helped her. think about how she grew up where they basically conditioned her to be a psycho and when she escaped she gets picked up by people who rape her. she didn't exactly come into a world that would do anything good for her. I think she has done horrible things but it shows in ME3 how when someone took the effort to really help her and connect with her that she became a good person who would protect her kids even if it meant her dying.

[w0lfam0da1s]

You know I've read alot of post on here. I see and understand where you all are coming from.

So many of you see what the crew does as murder. I can see why you see it that way.
While others see it as just killing. I can see why you see it that way also.

So lets look at it like this.....

If you send out soldiers to war are they a murderer/killer or are they just doing there job?
If you say it's just doing there job then your wrong. Because we don't just do our job. We kill no questoins asked. We get by with it because we put on the uniform.
If we did the same thing outside the military we would be considered murderers.

Also think about it like this....
In the case of Thane he was the object used to kill. That is how he was trained.
He is no diffrent in that then your goverment training soldiers to kill.

I've said it before...
We as humans are all killers...it is our primal urge to kill. It can be trigered at any moment for any reason. It depends on how far a person is pushed and how they handle daily life. Many of us say we would never kill....but put into a situation where you or the life of your family depends on it I don't believe any of you would hesitate to take a life.

Peole can be conditioned to become killers. You take a young child and start teaching them how to hold a gun who there enemy is the diffrent wasy to kill human or amimal and if you abuse the child while teaching them to kill that child will see people as there enemy.
For some the sound or a smell can triger the blood rage. While others it coud be something totaly diffrent.

So yes Jack can be called a cold blooded murderer.
Yes she may have done all the things she said she did.
Why she do them.... is no difrent then why we do things when we are hanging out with people.
Who know about the rest. Maybe something trigered her bloodrage when she was alone and that is why she did the things she did. That is if she really did do them.

People say she changed too quickly in the game...
We forget that she was with Shepard and the crew for a year before the Collector Base. Then another 6 or mths with people who was helping her get the job with the school. Who knows how long it was before Shepard got the call to rescue the students.
So on we could be looking at a good 1 1/2yrs to almost 2 years for her to change.
Carring and love and aceptance can go a long way.

I don't believe you people will understand what I am trying to get across. I'm not trying to say your views are wrong or anything.

Just try to look at it diffrently. Through Jacks eys.
Remember that there are real people who go through things that Jack did and don't come out alive let alone remotely ok.

Take that for what you will
Have a Good Day

Modifié par w0lfam0da1s, 18 mars 2013 - 03:40 .

[nos_astra]

Vlk3 wrote...
Hmm...If some of you want the characters in game to be completely innocent, maybe you should start playing games like The Sims? Shepard needs people, who can kill and are good at it.

Actually, one of the problems Mass Effect has is the focus on solving a galaxy wide problem of defeating giant space cuttlefish by recruiting guys with guns and let them shoot at something.

What Shepard needed were allies who can do more than just kill effectively. The plot could have been much better.

Modifié par klarabella, 18 mars 2013 - 04:12 .

[CronoDragoon]

klarabella wrote...
What Shepard needed were allies who can do more than just kill effectively. The plot could have been much better.

Which he recruited in spades, to work on the Crucible among other things. So I don't see your point. Scientists aren't on the Normandy because the Normandy does spec ops missions primarily, so any scientists are also trained fighters (like Mordin).

[CronoDragoon]

w0lfam0da1s wrote...

I've said it before...
We as humans are all killers...it is our primal urge to kill. It can be trigered at any moment for any reason. It depends on how far a person is pushed and how they handle daily life. Many of us say we would never kill....but put into a situation where you or the life of your family depends on it I don't believe any of you would hesitate to take a life.

Killing is not exactly an anthropomorphic phenomenon. Nature, by its very nature, is violent.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 mars 2013 - 04:20 .

[KainD]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
I hate how people use the "She was only a violent psycho because she was abused, she had no control over herself, she was conditioned!"
Yes she was, but that doesn't justify her going and killing other people and destroying property due to her angst.

It DOES justify her completely. 

[Massa FX]

Jack was never a favorite of mine. But... I think Cerberus made her insane. Shepard bought her back from the "dark side".

In all my paragon interactions with Jack, I've always pitied her and I've always understood that Jack is broken. But she's also saveable.

[w0lfam0da1s]

CronoDragoon wrote...

w0lfam0da1s wrote...

I've said it before...
We as humans are all killers...it is our primal urge to kill. It can be trigered at any moment for any reason. It depends on how far a person is pushed and how they handle daily life. Many of us say we would never kill....but put into a situation where you or the life of your family depends on it I don't believe any of you would hesitate to take a life.

Killing is not exactly an anthropomorphic phenomenon. Nature, by its very nature, is violent.

That is the way of life. We all take part in it. Some don't see it that way but we do.

That is one of the very reasons Jack is what she is.

Thank about what you do when you have a drink of beer or take something for pain like Advil or have coffee.
Like it or not we are destroying our own body cells when we do that. Yes they can get replaced but not only that we are damanging other cells that can't get replaced. So we are killing ourselves slowly anyways.
Yes I know that is diffrent. But not completly.
The world is a kill or be killed place.
We see it today in the lives of sending soldiers off to war and for what. because lives was taken because of one mans greed or hate.
So we did the same thing the very same thing Jack was trained to do.

Anyway I think I got a bit off track but my point is we all do it. It's just how we do it. That is the diffrence.

We all can become killers or murderers. Even the ones who had a stable life. A so called "Good" life.

It is only a matter of when or what pushes us to become who or what we are.

I've seen it in the way a child has be abused and conditioned to be a killer.

Tap into that primal urge that makes us kill and who knows what can happen.

[Zagardal]

KainD wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
I hate how people use the "She was only a violent psycho because she was abused, she had no control over herself, she was conditioned!"
Yes she was, but that doesn't justify her going and killing other people and destroying property due to her angst.

It DOES justify her completely. 

Zagardal wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Jack is a
sociopath. If she was a psychopath, there wouldn't be an option to stop her from killing Aresh - someone who less than a minute before tried to have Shep's squad killed.

Sociopath and psychopath are practically the same thing, there's no real consensus in the medical community about what really makes those to terms different. Both include disregard for laws, social mores and the rights of others, lack of compassion or guilt and emotional inestability (emotional outbursts and violent behavior).

Having that in mind, Jack is either borderline psycho or just a very good liar, as she does show some regret and can definitely be socially acceptable (although, again, that could be just acting). This is what makes Jack's arc in ME2 and ME3 unbelievable; she goes from violent, psychopathic behavior (specially when you consider the stories she tells you) to basically a rebel teenager with an attitude in just six months. That could mean:

1.- She's still a psycho and got very good at playing nice (extremely unlikely)
2.- Besides that traumatic childhood, all of her stories were just crap (extremely unlikely,as there is proof)
3.- BW doesn't really know that much about psychology

Jack should have carried a LOT of baggage on ME3, that would have made more sense and actually made her arc more interesting. Either way, I still like her, it's just hard to swallow her evolution as a character.

Shameless autoquote.

Having all that in consideration, you could say we can understand her, buy justify her? think again. She's a functioning adult, capable of making her own decisions. It's very unlikely that's she's a psycho, not even a high functioning one, because of the reasons I listed above, although she has displayed antisocial tendencies in the past. The important thing is that her sense of reality is working, she does have an understanding of social rules, she's not hallucinating, she doesn't have a split personality, etc. That alone makes her accountable for her actions.

Again, her actions may be understandable, but not justifiable, there's a big difference between the two. She did have a childhood that could have made her a psycho, but she didn't turn into one. And even if she did become one, that's not a reason to think her actions are justified.

Modifié par Zagardal, 18 mars 2013 - 05:26 .

[Venom man4]

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nearly everyone you grow to love in these game is a mass murderer lol.

its a war and they are using self defense.

As for Jack I've never been crazy about her, her attitude and obsession with Ink wasn't turn ons for me. Her being a teacher in ME3 was a nice touch but thinking about her past can make you wonder if she should be shaping young minds. So Jack isn't one of my favorites in ME I just don't care for her personality and this is coming from someone that wants a legit serious Aria romance.