369 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

CronoDragoon wrote...

klarabella wrote...
What Shepard needed were allies who can do more than just kill effectively. The plot could have been much better.

Which he recruited in spades, to work on the Crucible among other things. So I don't see your point. Scientists aren't on the Normandy because the Normandy does spec ops missions primarily, so any scientists are also trained fighters (like Mordin).

We recruited war assets that disappeared and turned into numbers.

I said allies who can do more than just effectively kill.

Only characters off the team get to do more interesting things (sometimes only implied):
Liara is the Shadow Broker but that job obviously is not fulfilling enough. She always follows Shepard into battle despite a lack of proper training she keeps up with the glorified Commander Shepard. Before that she abandoned the Prothean expert idea to become something else. Liara is never content focussing on one job at a time.

Kaidan/Ashley become Spectres but decide to follow Shepard anyway. 

Garrus somehow becomes an important figure in the turian hierarchy but prefers living in Shepards shadow to kill more things.

Tali becomes an admiral but eventually leaves her people to go shoot at things.

See the point?

Even when squaddies should have more to offer it's not used, in favor of point and shoot.
No wonder we take assassins with us but don't assassinate anyone. We recruit a thief but we don't hack anything or steal anything. And so on and so on.
Even when they should have other qualities, we only ever use them to kill more things.

We even recruit a broken young woman, point her in the right direction and tell her to kill some more. That's ok though, it's for the greater good. 

Modifié par klarabella, 18 mars 2013 - 06:34 .

[Seboist]

klarabella wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

klarabella wrote...
What Shepard needed were allies who can do more than just kill effectively. The plot could have been much better.

Which he recruited in spades, to work on the Crucible among other things. So I don't see your point. Scientists aren't on the Normandy because the Normandy does spec ops missions primarily, so any scientists are also trained fighters (like Mordin).

We recruited war assets who disappeared and turned into numbers.

I said allies who can do more than just effectively kill.

Only characters off the team get to do more interesting things:
Liara is the Shadow Broker but that job obviously is not fulfilling enough, so follows Shepard into battle. Before that she abandoned the Prothean expert idea to become something else. Liara is never content focussing on one job at a time.
Kaidan/Ashley become Spectres but decide to follow Shepard.
Garrus somehow becomes an important figure in the turian hierarchy but prefers living in Shepards shadow to kill things.
Tali becomes an admiral but eventually leaves her people to go shoot things.

See the point? Even when squaddies shuld have more to offer it's not used in favor of point and shoot. Tragic.
No wonder we take assassins with us (but don't assassinate anyone). We recruit a thief but we don't hack anything or steal anything, instead she helps shoot things dead. And so on and so on. Even when they should have other qualities, we only ever use them to kill more things.

We even recruit a broken young woman point her in the right direction and tell her to kill some more. That's ok though, it's for the greater good.

Yeah, ME squadmates are just glorified versions of  the near-mannequin companions you'd find in a Bethesda game.

[CronoDragoon]

klarabella wrote...
We recruited war assets who disappeared and turned into numbers.

I said allies who can do more than just effectively kill.

Only characters off the team get to do more interesting things:
Liara is the Shadow Broker but that job obviously is not fulfilling enough, so follows Shepard into battle. Before that she abandoned the Prothean expert idea to become something else. Liara is never content focussing on one job at a time.
Kaidan/Ashley become Spectres but decide to follow Shepard.
Garrus somehow becomes an important figure in the turian hierarchy but prefers living in Shepards shadow to kill things.
Tali becomes an admiral but eventually leaves her people to go shoot things.

See the point? Even when squaddies shuld have more to offer it's not used in favor of point and shoot. Tragic.
No wonder we take assassins with us (but don't assassinate anyone). We recruit a thief but we don't hack anything or steal anything, instead she helps shoot things dead. And so on and so on. Even when they should have other qualities, we only ever use them to kill more things.

Because the Normandy is a combat vessel in a shooting game. I also don't get your arguments about the squadmates. Garrus is making tactical decisions for Palaven strategy while fighting alongside Shepard. Liara is still managing the Broker network WHILE writing a book about Javik WHILE fighting alongside Shepard. Tali uses her technical expertise in battle, so it's not merely "shooting things." And we recruit Kasumi but don't hack or steal anything?! Did you miss the Suicide Mission where she can use her tech expertise to open vents?

No, I'm sorry, I don't see your point. The squad does more than shoot bad guys in ME3. If they couldn't shoot bad guys and were just pure scientists or politicians, then by definition they couldn't be a part of your squad.

[The Heretic of Time]

Jack is what we call a Jerk Sue, which is basically a jerk version of a Mary Sue. Someone who is despicable, yet the author portrays her as a victim and/or lovable person who we should feel sorry for and who we should like/love.

More on Jerk Sue, here.

[KainD]

Zagardal wrote...

Having all that in consideration, you could say we can understand her, buy justify her? think again. She's a functioning adult, capable of making her own decisions. It's very unlikely that's she's a psycho, not even a high functioning one, because of the reasons I listed above, although she has displayed antisocial tendencies in the past. The important thing is that her sense of reality is working, she does have an understanding of social rules, she's not hallucinating, she doesn't have a split personality, etc. That alone makes her accountable for her actions.

Again, her actions may be understandable, but not justifiable, there's a big difference between the two. She did have a childhood that could have made her a psycho, but she didn't turn into one. And even if she did become one, that's not a reason to think her actions are justified.

I don't think there is any difference - understanding and justifying are the same thing. I wasn't talking about federal justification, I was talking about the fact that her actions can be rationalized. It doesn't mean that she is not guilty, but she is justified. 

I don't even know how to explain this properly. It's just a very grey matter. You CAN blame Jack for her actions and you would be correct in a way, OR you can blame other people for making Jack the way she is, and that would be correct too, it just depends on your life position. 

It's the same with Morinth for me. She killed all those people, but I don't blame her, and would actually say that Samara was more responsible for that than Morinth, but that's my position because it all comes down to the fact how Morinth was treated by the asari government. Some may say that government did everyting right, and they might act differently in that situation and might blame Morinth and say that she needs to be punished and they would be right too in their own way. It's just very grey, and I like that. 

Modifié par KainD, 18 mars 2013 - 06:14 .

[David7204]

Boy, are there some stupid arguments here.

'Squadmates who do more than kill.'

Well, let's think about that for a second. First of all, you can kiss choosing squadmates on missions goodbye, since certain squadmates would obviously need to be present to have a role in the story. So that's gone. Secondly, you can forget about having much choice at all to for squadmates to be present in the story in general. If they're a part of the plot, they're a part of the plot, period. That's perfectly fine, but it kind of defeats the purpose of choosing a squad. Thirdly, there's an implication here that every one of Shepard's allies is nothing but a grunt. Which is incredibly stupid. There are a good number of characters that have no role in combat at all.

I think the Mass Effect series overall goes a great job of balancing things, with some characters like Liara and Miranda and EDI and Joker having specific roles, and some characters having less specific roles.

Modifié par David7204, 18 mars 2013 - 06:15 .

[CronoDragoon]

KainD wrote...

I don't think there is any difference - understanding and justifying are the same thing. I wasn't talking about federal justification, I was talking about the fact that her actions can be rationalized. It doesn't mean that she is not guilty, but she is justified. 

I really don't think they are. I've never heard anyone call serial killing justified, but we do understand how some of them came to be serial killers.

[Funkdrspot]

Jack is a case study in environment and culture. Did you really expect someone who has been beaten, raped an tortured since they were 5 to have the same values as you? You can't hold the same morals between a regular western citizen and someone who grew up a child-soldier...

Its pretty sad that this isn't common sense.

[KainD]

CronoDragoon wrote...

KainD wrote...

I don't think there is any difference - understanding and justifying are the same thing. I wasn't talking about federal justification, I was talking about the fact that her actions can be rationalized. It doesn't mean that she is not guilty, but she is justified. 

I really don't think they are. I've never heard anyone call serial killing justified, but we do understand how some of them came to be serial killers.

I added some more to that, talking about serial killer. ^

[thehomeworld]

klarabella wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

klarabella wrote...
What Shepard needed were allies who can do more than just kill effectively. The plot could have been much better.

Which he recruited in spades, to work on the Crucible among other things. So I don't see your point. Scientists aren't on the Normandy because the Normandy does spec ops missions primarily, so any scientists are also trained fighters (like Mordin).

We recruited war assets who disappeared and turned into numbers.

I said allies who can do more than just effectively kill.

Only characters off the team get to do more interesting things:
Liara is the Shadow Broker but that job obviously is not fulfilling enough, so follows Shepard into battle. Before that she abandoned the Prothean expert idea to become something else. Liara is never content focussing on one job at a time.
Kaidan/Ashley become Spectres but decide to follow Shepard.
Garrus somehow becomes an important figure in the turian hierarchy but prefers living in Shepards shadow to kill things.
Tali becomes an admiral but eventually leaves her people to go shoot things.

See the point? Even when squaddies shuld have more to offer it's not used in favor of point and shoot. Tragic.
No wonder we take assassins with us (but don't assassinate anyone). We recruit a thief but we don't hack anything or steal anything, instead she helps shoot things dead. And so on and so on. Even when they should have other qualities, we only ever use them to kill more things.

We even recruit a broken young woman point her in the right direction and tell her to kill some more. That's ok though, it's for the greater good.

Good post and point. Garrus at least is still advising while shooting things, but Tali being an Admiral should've done more and created problems with groups who don't like the flotilla I mean she would be a high priority target if it got leaked an Admiral was with shep.

Kasumi wasn't nessisary nor were Jack the former is a theif and as you say we don't steel anything save her own mission anybody can open doors and vents and she even questions her own spot on the ship, the later is too unstable and her job is already done by 2 -3 other biotics and if shep is one that's four people she's very redundant.

The SB was purely wasted by BW I expected her to be waging an info war with the reapers vigil said they got to the public records first we could've gotten calls from her when there were to large centers becoming too close to the reapers invasion and she says I've got time to fake records on one of these world the world you chose to save she'd place in records and leak them to the reapers that the planet you choose only has 20 people on it rather then a few billion the reapers will make this world then a low priority world, she'd cut off all communications leaving the world while that world evacs its citizens to a safe world that is continusly being reported as lifeless when infact it has bunkers and underworlds for them to life out the invasion.

[Seboist]

Tali being an Admiral is one of the dumbest things in ME3. She's apparently so awesome that she gets promoted to that despite never even having been the captain of a rowboat and gets to play action sidekick waifu.

[Steelcan]

Seboist wrote...

Tali being an Admiral is one of the dumbest things in ME3. She's apparently so awesome that she gets promoted to that despite never even having been the captain of a rowboat and gets to play action sidekick waifu.

. At least she acknowledges that she isn't a real admiral.

[David7204]

You sure do like to repeat your posts, don't you? Understandable, since they rely on you using terms like 'waifu' and your other little phrases every post instead of any reasoning or logic.

[Vespervin]

Seboist wrote...

Tali being an Admiral is one of the dumbest things in ME3. She's apparently so awesome that she gets promoted to that despite never even having been the captain of a rowboat and gets to play action sidekick waifu.

You seem like a Tali'Zorah hater. There's a legitimate reason for her being an Admiral. Also, she herself admits that it doesn't seem right.

It is most definitely NOT one of the "dumbest things in ME3." I fail to see your reasoning. Please either provide a good reason behind why you don't agree with Tali'Zorah being an Admiral, or be quite.

Heh, next you'll be saying Garrus Vakarian being the rank he is in ME3 is another one of the "dumbest things in ME3."

[crimzontearz]

A child kept in a closet until the age of 16 would not be sane (to quote a very beloved girl)

Jack is not sane, she has not grown as a person in her early life and what they taught them about right and wrong shaped her into the person who committed those atrocities.

Is she the same person now? No...

Modifié par crimzontearz, 18 mars 2013 - 07:04 .

[Zagardal]

KainD wrote...

Zagardal wrote...

Having all that in consideration, you could say we can understand her, buy justify her? think again. She's a functioning adult, capable of making her own decisions. It's very unlikely that's she's a psycho, not even a high functioning one, because of the reasons I listed above, although she has displayed antisocial tendencies in the past. The important thing is that her sense of reality is working, she does have an understanding of social rules, she's not hallucinating, she doesn't have a split personality, etc. That alone makes her accountable for her actions.

Again, her actions may be understandable, but not justifiable, there's a big difference between the two. She did have a childhood that could have made her a psycho, but she didn't turn into one. And even if she did become one, that's not a reason to think her actions are justified.

I don't think there is any difference - understanding and justifying are the same thing. I wasn't talking about federal justification, I was talking about the fact that her actions can be rationalized. It doesn't mean that she is not guilty, but she is justified. 

I don't even know how to explain this properly. It's just a very grey matter. You CAN blame Jack for her actions and you would be correct in a way, OR you can blame other people for making Jack the way she is, and that would be correct too, it just depends on your life position. 

It's the same with Morinth for me. She killed all those people, but I don't blame her, and would actually say that Samara was more responsible for that than Morinth, but that's my position because it all comes down to the fact how Morinth was treated by the asari government. Some may say that government did everyting right, and they might act differently in that situation and might blame Morinth and say that she needs to be punished and they would be right too in their own way. It's just very grey, and I like that. As you well said, it's a grey area.

The thing is, anything can be rationalized (that's what psychopaths do in a non-rethoric way). Understanding and justifying have to be different, or there would be no way to analyze anything beyond the facts. I can understand a theft based on necessity (my family needs to eat) and one on jealousy (I wan't that), but I wouldn't justify the latter if we're talking about an adult. Even the first one could be objectable (maybe he's just talking the easy way, instead of hard work).

When it comes to killing, the same applies. That being said, mitigating circumstances do exist, but just takes you so far. When it comes to Jack, there's a lot of people who share the blame, but she's still one of them. You could argue there's a lot she's not responsible for, specially what she did during her childhood, but she is responsible for what she did as an adult. As stated before, she is in command of her faculties, she's not a mindless lunatic, and thus she has to be held accountable, at least to some extent. For better or worse, Jack is sane enough to be responsible for her actions.

crimzontearz wrote...

A child kept in a closet until the age of 16 would not be sane (to quote a very beloved girl)

Jack
is not sane, she has not grown as a person in her early life and what
they taught them about right and wrong shaped her into the person who
committed those atrocities.

Is she the same person now? No...

She does have an understanding or right or wrong, that's why she does show guilt and why she's redeeming herself in ME3. Is she a basket-case? yes she is, but she's sane enough.

Modifié par Zagardal, 18 mars 2013 - 07:10 .

[Seboist]

Vespervin wrote...

You seem like a Tali'Zorah hater.

Awwww. is fanboy butthurt his waifu is criticised?

There's a legitimate reason for her being an Admiral. Also, she herself admits that it doesn't seem right

There isn't any. The extremely flimsy excuse they use is rendered null and void by Admiral Xen being far more qualified on the Geth than Tali whose "expertise" just involves pew pewing  like any other soldier.

That Tali herself recognizes the stupidity of it doesn't make it any less stupid.

Heh, next you'll be saying Garrus Vakarian being the rank he is in ME3 is another one of the "dumbest things in ME3."

Dudebro Vakarian becoming Primarch in the leaked script was right up there and unlike the idiocy of Tali being Admiral they had the sense to change it.

[crimzontearz]

Zagardal wrote...

KainD wrote...

Zagardal wrote...

Having all that in consideration, you could say we can understand her, buy justify her? think again. She's a functioning adult, capable of making her own decisions. It's very unlikely that's she's a psycho, not even a high functioning one, because of the reasons I listed above, although she has displayed antisocial tendencies in the past. The important thing is that her sense of reality is working, she does have an understanding of social rules, she's not hallucinating, she doesn't have a split personality, etc. That alone makes her accountable for her actions.

Again, her actions may be understandable, but not justifiable, there's a big difference between the two. She did have a childhood that could have made her a psycho, but she didn't turn into one. And even if she did become one, that's not a reason to think her actions are justified.

I don't think there is any difference - understanding and justifying are the same thing. I wasn't talking about federal justification, I was talking about the fact that her actions can be rationalized. It doesn't mean that she is not guilty, but she is justified. 

I don't even know how to explain this properly. It's just a very grey matter. You CAN blame Jack for her actions and you would be correct in a way, OR you can blame other people for making Jack the way she is, and that would be correct too, it just depends on your life position. 

It's the same with Morinth for me. She killed all those people, but I don't blame her, and would actually say that Samara was more responsible for that than Morinth, but that's my position because it all comes down to the fact how Morinth was treated by the asari government. Some may say that government did everyting right, and they might act differently in that situation and might blame Morinth and say that she needs to be punished and they would be right too in their own way. It's just very grey, and I like that. As you well said, it's a grey area.

The thing is, anything can be rationalized (that's what psychopaths do in a non-rethoric way). Understanding and justifying have to be different, or there would be no way to analyze anything beyond the facts. I can understand a theft based on necessity (my family needs to eat) and one on jealousy (I wan't that), but I wouldn't justify the latter if we're talking about an adult. Even the first one could be objectable (maybe he's just talking the easy way, instead of hard work).

When it comes to killing, the same applies. That being said, mitigating circumstances do exist, but just takes you so far. When it comes to Jack, there's a lot of people who share the blame, but she's still one of them. You could argue there's a lot she's not responsible for, specially what she did during her childhood, but she is responsible for what she did as an adult. As stated before, she is in command of her faculties, she's not a mindless lunatic, and thus she has to be held accountable, at least to some extent. For better or worse, Jack is sane enough to be responsible for her actions.

crimzontearz wrote...

A child kept in a closet until the age of 16 would not be sane (to quote a very beloved girl)

Jack
is not sane, she has not grown as a person in her early life and what
they taught them about right and wrong shaped her into the person who
committed those atrocities.

Is she the same person now? No...

She does have an understanding or right or wrong, that's why she does show guilt and why she's redeeming herself in ME3. Is she a basket-case? yes she is, but she's sane enough.

she is still conditioned to feel pleasure by killing, that is not sanity. She now has a different view on right or wrong and yes what she did was atrocious but I will not hold her past over her, sorry

[DaveT]

*shrug* At least Jack didn't get a couple month slap on the wrist for killing an entire Batarian colony.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Seboist wrote...

Dudebro Vakarian becoming Primarch in the leaked script was right up there and unlike the idiocy of Tali being Admiral they had the sense to change it.

Ugh, are you serious? That makes no sense for him. Every time I see someone's headcanon including Garrus becoming Primarch I wonder if they interacted with the character at all. It's like they think that people can't live successful and meaningful lives without being the leader of their entire species, regardless of their interests or qualifications. That's like turning Shepard or Ashley into the Prime Minister. Just... no. /ot

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 18 mars 2013 - 07:33 .

[The Night Mammoth]

DaveT wrote...

*shrug* At least Jack didn't get a couple month slap on the wrist for killing an entire Batarian colony.

The Reapers were given a slap on the wrist? 

I think the Crucible was a bit more than that. 

[Yestare7]

GT Zazzerka wrote...

You're right, OP.

It still really hurts my feelings that she called my Shepard a p*ssy.

Same here!  I just kinda ignored her there in Engineering.

Q: What part of my ship do I have to NOT upgrade, in order to kill Jack?:whistle:




Y

[Ryzaki]

I don't mind her being a killer.

But bringing a violent, biotic that hates everything to do with the group you're working with is just idiocy. It being forced is wat inducing. Jack is hands down the worst BW forced squadmate I've ever seen. Just...no.

[Zagardal]

crimzontearz wrote...

Zagardal wrote...

KainD wrote...

Zagardal wrote...

Having all that in consideration, you could say we can understand her, buy justify her? think again. She's a functioning adult, capable of making her own decisions. It's very unlikely that's she's a psycho, not even a high functioning one, because of the reasons I listed above, although she has displayed antisocial tendencies in the past. The important thing is that her sense of reality is working, she does have an understanding of social rules, she's not hallucinating, she doesn't have a split personality, etc. That alone makes her accountable for her actions.

Again, her actions may be understandable, but not justifiable, there's a big difference between the two. She did have a childhood that could have made her a psycho, but she didn't turn into one. And even if she did become one, that's not a reason to think her actions are justified.

I don't think there is any difference - understanding and justifying are the same thing. I wasn't talking about federal justification, I was talking about the fact that her actions can be rationalized. It doesn't mean that she is not guilty, but she is justified. 

I don't even know how to explain this properly. It's just a very grey matter. You CAN blame Jack for her actions and you would be correct in a way, OR you can blame other people for making Jack the way she is, and that would be correct too, it just depends on your life position. 

It's the same with Morinth for me. She killed all those people, but I don't blame her, and would actually say that Samara was more responsible for that than Morinth, but that's my position because it all comes down to the fact how Morinth was treated by the asari government. Some may say that government did everyting right, and they might act differently in that situation and might blame Morinth and say that she needs to be punished and they would be right too in their own way. It's just very grey, and I like that. As you well said, it's a grey area.

The thing is, anything can be rationalized (that's what psychopaths do in a non-rethoric way). Understanding and justifying have to be different, or there would be no way to analyze anything beyond the facts. I can understand a theft based on necessity (my family needs to eat) and one on jealousy (I wan't that), but I wouldn't justify the latter if we're talking about an adult. Even the first one could be objectable (maybe he's just talking the easy way, instead of hard work).

When it comes to killing, the same applies. That being said, mitigating circumstances do exist, but just takes you so far. When it comes to Jack, there's a lot of people who share the blame, but she's still one of them. You could argue there's a lot she's not responsible for, specially what she did during her childhood, but she is responsible for what she did as an adult. As stated before, she is in command of her faculties, she's not a mindless lunatic, and thus she has to be held accountable, at least to some extent. For better or worse, Jack is sane enough to be responsible for her actions.

crimzontearz wrote...

A child kept in a closet until the age of 16 would not be sane (to quote a very beloved girl)

Jack
is not sane, she has not grown as a person in her early life and what
they taught them about right and wrong shaped her into the person who
committed those atrocities.

Is she the same person now? No...

She does have an understanding or right or wrong, that's why she does show guilt and why she's redeeming herself in ME3. Is she a basket-case? yes she is, but she's sane enough.

she is still conditioned to feel pleasure by killing, that is not sanity. She now has a different view on right or wrong and yes what she did was atrocious but I will not hold her past over her, sorry

I said "sane enough", sanity isn't absolute. And though you have a point on the pleasure aspect, that's psychopathic behaviour, but she's not a psychopath. And even if she was a psychopath, being one doesn't absolve you from your wrong doings, as psychopaths do understand about right or wrong, they just don't care about it or they justify their actions accordingly.

She's not psychotic (there's a HUGE difference between psychotic and psychopathic), she does have a sense of reality, she's not delirious, she's not a victim of hallucinations, she's not mentally challenged or a small kid. That makes her mentally fit, and thus responsible for at least what she did as an adult.

Modifié par Zagardal, 18 mars 2013 - 08:31 .