369 réponses à ce sujet

[Aggie Punbot]

I've got to say that I can't agree with the prevailing opinion in this thread that Jack is an awful human being. She clearly is not an unrepentant murderer, else she would have killed Aresh with no input from the player. Even if Shepard encourages her to kill him, she still questions the decision and only goes through with it if Shepard eggs her on.

The only time I can recall her mentioning killing civilians was in reference to those two scam artists that stole her share of the loot from a raid they had agreed to split three ways. Not exactly a stellar example of morality, but there was at least a viable reason for it even if you don't agree.

Recall how she was charged with kidnapping: that's the charge that gets levied to someone who hijacks a ship without murdering everyone on board. If she was this awful person everyone is saying she is, what motivation would she have had for sparing their lives?

I think a lot of you don't fully grasp just how badly years and years of horrific torture can affect a person's psyche. She likely had to develop a self-preservation instinct by necessity, because no one else cared about her well being, and the first person who later did genuinely care about her got themselves killed trying to protect her. That clearly left a huge hole in her heart.

I'm not saying she's a bastion of morality and/or kindness, far from it. I'm simply suggesting that maybe a few of you should consider her entire story before you start labelling her as a bad person who commits crimes for no reason at all.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 18 mars 2013 - 08:08 .

[Helios969]

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't mind her being a killer.

But bringing a violent, biotic that hates everything to do with the group you're working with is just idiocy. It being forced is wat inducing. Jack is hands down the worst BW forced squadmate I've ever seen. Just...no.

No way.  That honor goes to Jacob.  He makes Kaiden seem like Mr. Personality.  At least Jack is "colorful." 

I'd be interested to know the correlation between Miranda romancers and Jack haters.

[w0lfam0da1s]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Jack is a case study in environment and culture. Did you really expect someone who has been beaten, raped an tortured since they were 5 to have the same values as you? You can't hold the same morals between a regular western citizen and someone who grew up a child-soldier...

Its pretty sad that this isn't common sense.

That is part of the biger point I've been trying to make. Thank you for saying it this way. Maybe someone will get it.

Waite....No they wont.

Anywahy good point.

Have A Good Day

[Ryzaki]

Helios969 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't mind her being a killer.

But bringing a violent, biotic that hates everything to do with the group you're working with is just idiocy. It being forced is wat inducing. Jack is hands down the worst BW forced squadmate I've ever seen. Just...no.

No way.  That honor goes to Jacob.  He makes Kaiden seem like Mr. Personality.  At least Jack is "colorful." 

I'd be interested to know the correlation between Miranda romancers and Jack haters.

Jacob doesn't hate the people you're working for. So no that title still goes to Jack. She's not worst in personality but for the sheer baffling reason she's forced. There's no viable reason for her to be forced. If you need a  strong biotic (which no one would even know) there's still Samara. So...she's forced...why exactly? Oh because the plot says. * and again this wouldn't be so bad....if she didn't have a grudge against the people you were working for...

[w0lfam0da1s]

Ryzaki wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't mind her being a killer.

But bringing a violent, biotic that hates everything to do with the group you're working with is just idiocy. It being forced is wat inducing. Jack is hands down the worst BW forced squadmate I've ever seen. Just...no.

No way.  That honor goes to Jacob.  He makes Kaiden seem like Mr. Personality.  At least Jack is "colorful." 

I'd be interested to know the correlation between Miranda romancers and Jack haters.

Jacob doesn't hate the people you're working for. So no that title still goes to Jack. She's not worst in personality but for the sheer baffling reason she's forced. There's no viable reason for her to be forced. If you need a  strong biotic (which no one would even know) there's still Samara. So...she's forced...why exactly? Oh because the plot says. * and again this wouldn't be so bad....if she didn't have a grudge against the people you were working for...

 
That is all fine and dandy. However lets look at that part you said

If she didn't have a grudge against the people you were working for....

That statement could be tacted on to Shepard also.
Remember Shepard has or had a few run ins with Cerberus and them almost killing Shepard while doing what they where doing. Way before Shepard is somewhat forced to work with them. Maybe forced is the wrong word but it wasn't like Shepard at the moment had the chance to go back to the Alliance.

Anyways Shepard could also have a grudge against the people they are working for.

Have A Good Day

[SwitchN7]

I always "molest" her on each playthrough with my Male Shepazaurus.Yes molest because in my own personal interpretation/imagination after Chosing Yes Jack this is about boiking your brains out she does not sit well for a couple of days up to a week maybe why not?

Modifié par SwitchN7, 18 mars 2013 - 08:54 .

[Ryzaki]

w0lfam0da1s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't mind her being a killer.

But bringing a violent, biotic that hates everything to do with the group you're working with is just idiocy. It being forced is wat inducing. Jack is hands down the worst BW forced squadmate I've ever seen. Just...no.

No way.  That honor goes to Jacob.  He makes Kaiden seem like Mr. Personality.  At least Jack is "colorful." 

I'd be interested to know the correlation between Miranda romancers and Jack haters.

Jacob doesn't hate the people you're working for. So no that title still goes to Jack. She's not worst in personality but for the sheer baffling reason she's forced. There's no viable reason for her to be forced. If you need a  strong biotic (which no one would even know) there's still Samara. So...she's forced...why exactly? Oh because the plot says. * and again this wouldn't be so bad....if she didn't have a grudge against the people you were working for...

 
That is all fine and dandy. However lets look at that part you said

If she didn't have a grudge against the people you were working for....

That statement could be tacted on to Shepard also.
Remember Shepard has or had a few run ins with Cerberus and them almost killing Shepard while doing what they where doing. Way before Shepard is somewhat forced to work with them. Maybe forced is the wrong word but it wasn't like Shepard at the moment had the chance to go back to the Alliance.

Anyways Shepard could also have a grudge against the people they are working for.

Have A Good Day

Not really. Shep knows the risks and has no other real choice. Shepard also wouldn't be enraged enough to cut his nose to spite his face.

Jack has no personal investement in the SM. She's unaware of the Reaper threat. And Shep wasn't forced (no matter how much the railroad makes it feel like) he/she went of their own will.

[o Ventus]

Wait a second.

Correlation between Miranda romancers and Jack haters?

[Funkdrspot]

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't mind her being a killer.

But bringing a violent, biotic that hates everything to do with the group you're working with is just idiocy. It being forced is wat inducing. Jack is hands down the worst BW forced squadmate I've ever seen. Just...no.

you NEED a strong biotic. Not having one could potentially get a squadmate killed at the end. Jack is a great squadmate as you can see how your paragon rubs off on her, doubly so if you romance her and show her that youre the first one to actually care for her and not use her. also, not helping her to deal with her past costs you a great biotic but a couple of kids lives in ME3 @ Grissom

[nos_astra]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't mind her being a killer.

But bringing a violent, biotic that hates everything to do with the group you're working with is just idiocy. It being forced is wat inducing. Jack is hands down the worst BW forced squadmate I've ever seen. Just...no.

you NEED a strong biotic. Not having one could potentially get a squadmate killed at the end. Jack is a great squadmate as you can see how your paragon rubs off on her, doubly so if you romance her and show her that youre the first one to actually care for her and not use her. also, not helping her to deal with her past costs you a great biotic but a couple of kids lives in ME3 @ Grissom

But you do use her. You recruit her and ask her to fight for you because you need a strong biotic. You said it yourself.

[Big Magnet]

KingWrex wrote...

The funny thing is and none of you seem to mention is the whole reason you recruit all these people is that they are all good at what they do and that is.....killing. These people are soldiers, mercenaries, criminals, assassins; it's what they do.

I recruited Legion because of his dance skills

[Shaleist]

Ryzaki wrote...


Jacob doesn't hate the people you're working for.

No he doesn't. He's just entirely innapropriatly cast as a Cerberderp operative in spite of the fact he's antithetical to their racist, terroristic history.   Maybe Jack is recruited because she hates Cerberderp so much, it's used to convince Sheptard that Cerberderp is willing to make up for past mistakes. 

[Ryzaki]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't mind her being a killer.

But bringing a violent, biotic that hates everything to do with the group you're working with is just idiocy. It being forced is wat inducing. Jack is hands down the worst BW forced squadmate I've ever seen. Just...no.

you NEED a strong biotic. Not having one could potentially get a squadmate killed at the end. Jack is a great squadmate as you can see how your paragon rubs off on her, doubly so if you romance her and show her that youre the first one to actually care for her and not use her. also, not helping her to deal with her past costs you a great biotic but a couple of kids lives in ME3 @ Grissom

And TIM and the rest of the crew magically know this how...?

Oh wait they don't.

And if you absolutely NEED a biotic. 

Oh hai there Samara.

Not to mention Miranda herself is a biotic. Not as strong and not strong enough to hold the bubble without casualities but she would get the job done. (even if someone is lost in the process).

It cost you 2 kids lives in Me3 and honestly I can easily take that for not having my Shep feel ridculously OOC letting someone that unstable onto his ship.

[Ryzaki]

Shaleist wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


Jacob doesn't hate the people you're working for.

No he doesn't. He's just entirely innapropriatly cast as a Cerberderp operative in spite of the fact he's antithetical to their racist, terroristic history.   Maybe Jack is recruited because she hates Cerberderp so much, it's used to convince Sheptard that Cerberderp is willing to make up for past mistakes. 

Cute but no.

[Shaleist]

Ryzaki wrote...

Shaleist wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


Jacob doesn't hate the people you're working for.

No he doesn't. He's just entirely innapropriatly cast as a Cerberderp operative in spite of the fact he's antithetical to their racist, terroristic history.   Maybe Jack is recruited because she hates Cerberderp so much, it's used to convince Sheptard that Cerberderp is willing to make up for past mistakes. 

Cute but no.

which part? lol

[BronzTrooper]

Jack don't give a sh*t about anything. TIM and Aria are worse (IMO). I understand why you feel Jack is a horrible person, but you have to remember: She was raised in a "rogue" Cerberus facility and was conditioned to fight. She was also tortured as a child and she was never taught right from wrong. To her, life is 100% about survival, not being comfortable and having money to support yourself and possibly, a family. She sees the entire galaxy with suspicion and contempt. Before joining Shepard, she is a lone wolf. After defeating the Collectors (if she survives) she realizes that being soft isn't necessarily a bad thing. This helps her decide to teach at Grissom Academy. She doesn't go there to atone. She goes there to try and be a leader and feel less like an outsider.

Some of this is implied rather than stated so if you disagree, fine by me.

[andy6915]

"And if you absolutely NEED a biotic.

Oh hai there Samara."

You need to think in terms of "what if we lose them before they're needed... We'd be screwed". That's the reason the dossiers have so many redundant specialists (multiple tech specialists, multiple soldiers, multiple biotics). You want 2 really strong biotics because if 1 were to die before the suicide mission, you'd want another as a precaution. If Samara died at a bad time and you never got Jack, you're screwed. And don't say it couldn't happen from a realistic point of view. 1 single shot to the head after getting barriers brought down from gunfire will kill you. Who's to say a merc couldn't get a lucky headshot and kill your uber-biotic on a random loyalty mission or something?

Always have contingencies. On the battlefield where you can lose a team member from a random lucky shot or missile, you want more then 1 specialist as a backup. To do otherwise is tactically moronic.

[Aggie Punbot]

Let's not forget that the game really needed at least one crew member (that you obtain fairly early on) that will rather firmly remind you of just what kind of an organization Cerberus really is. People who played ME1 in its entirety will know all too well the atrocities that Cerberus is responsible for, but people who were new to the series and started playing at ME2 would get the idea that Cerberus was this misunderstood slightly-rogue-but-ultimately-good organization that was trying to save humanity for humanity's sake when it's perfectly clear that this was not the case at all.

Tali fits the bill for being an anti-Cerberus squadmate but you don't actually get her until the second half of the game. The game itself really needed a firm contrast to the 'rah rah go Cerberus' attitude of Miranda Lawson, and Jacob's 'they're bad, but not THAT bad' demeanor just wasn't good enough to get the message across.

Frankly, if people cannot understand how being tortured for years will affect a person's psyche, there's simply no hope for them.

[w0lfam0da1s]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Let's not forget that the game really needed at least one crew member (that you obtain fairly early on) that will rather firmly remind you of just what kind of an organization Cerberus really is. People who played ME1 in its entirety will know all too well the atrocities that Cerberus is responsible for, but people who were new to the series and started playing at ME2 would get the idea that Cerberus was this misunderstood slightly-rogue-but-ultimately-good organization that was trying to save humanity for humanity's sake when it's perfectly clear that this was not the case at all.

Tali fits the bill for being an anti-Cerberus squadmate but you don't actually get her until the second half of the game. The game itself really needed a firm contrast to the 'rah rah go Cerberus' attitude of Miranda Lawson, and Jacob's 'they're bad, but not THAT bad' demeanor just wasn't good enough to get the message across.

Frankly, if people cannot understand how being tortured for years will affect a person's psyche, there's simply no hope for them.

That's a good point.

I didn't play the first game. However what I took from the first incounter with Jacob and talking to him with Wilson didn't sit good with me.

Then like one of the previouse posters said about Jack haveing a grudge against Cerberus and being forced to be apart of the team wasn't a good idea because of the grudge.

I was wasn't just thinking about Jack when they said having a grudge for who you work for. I was also thinkin g about Tali.

Of course the one I talked about was Shepard. The fact that Shepard could hold a grudge also.

I do think that it was forced on us to work with Cerberus.. For the reason that we just couln't go back to the Alliance and that Cerberus for the most part was out doing somethig about the Collecters.

Of course we find out in ME3 that based on the intel we send Anderson they do start sending out teams to gather information about the Collectors.

However if that was so damn important then why wait so long. Even James says Shepard was already out destorying the base when he was with his team whereever they was getting there ass blown to bits.

Even Garrus says he don't trust Cerberus. That is only a few thing I can recall just off the top of my head.

So anyways good post.
Have A Good Day

[Vespervin]

Seboist wrote...

Awwww. is fanboy butthurt his waifu is criticised?

No, not at all. Since my wife is not in the game, she is real. And I wouldn't say I'm "butthurt."

There isn't any. The extremely flimsy excuse they use is rendered null and void by Admiral Xen being far more qualified on the Geth than Tali whose "expertise" just involves pew pewing  like any other soldier.

That Tali herself recognizes the stupidity of it doesn't make it any less stupid.

Tali'Zorah has more experience fighting the Geth than anyone else in the Migrant Fleet. She helped stop Sovereign, Saren and the Geth from taking the Citadel, among other things. What has Admiral Xen done? Oh, right. She experimented with some toys. My bad. She's perfectly suitable to give advice when trying to retake Rannoch. 

Dudebro Vakarian becoming Primarch in the leaked script was right up there and unlike the idiocy of Tali being Admiral they had the sense to change it.

Did I mention the leaked script? Thought not. In the *current* version of the script, Garrus Vakarian is still an extremely high rank. Turian Generals were saluting him. He's in that position because he has fought against the Reapers. Makes the same amount of sense as Tali'Zorah being an Admiral.

[deaths origin]

she was conditioned as a child but she has redeemed herself she would be a terible human being if she didnt seek redemtion in me3

[Kel Riever]

I never thought Jack was anything but a murderer. A murderer who is a product of what was done to her, but a murderer nevertheless. Usefull too. And that's why she's part of the crew.

It wasn't until ME3 where she gets a big pass from the Alliance and her compassion is supposed to be awakened. Don't ask me why they gave her a pass. But they do a lot of things, that Alliance, which is questionable. Anyway, Jack killed people, yep, and you take her on as your crew because she gets things done.

Don't tell me that somebody thinks Thane is a goody two shoes either. Religion, regret or otherwise, he kills people. That's what he does. So did Zaeed. So did Miranda. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...

[Ryzaki]

andy69156915 wrote...

"And if you absolutely NEED a biotic.

Oh hai there Samara."

You need to think in terms of "what if we lose them before they're needed... We'd be screwed". That's the reason the dossiers have so many redundant specialists (multiple tech specialists, multiple soldiers, multiple biotics). You want 2 really strong biotics because if 1 were to die before the suicide mission, you'd want another as a precaution. If Samara died at a bad time and you never got Jack, you're screwed. And don't say it couldn't happen from a realistic point of view. 1 single shot to the head after getting barriers brought down from gunfire will kill you. Who's to say a merc couldn't get a lucky headshot and kill your uber-biotic on a random loyalty mission or something?

Always have contingencies. On the battlefield where you can lose a team member from a random lucky shot or missile, you want more then 1 specialist as a backup. To do otherwise is tactically moronic.

Miranda, Jacob, Thane.

All biotics in case Samara fails. And of 1 them you will *always* have (Miranda being neigh unkillable in ME2). You  can lose Jack to the ship (which is usually what happens in my game because Shep pushed Jacob's buttons too hard and is awkwardly avoiding him now), and Samara at the door before you even GET to the bubble. Not to mention if worse comes to worse *Shep* could potentially be a powerful biotic. There's already contingencies without them being a liability to the mission, ship and crew.

You don't need to have Jack who could just as easily be far more of a liability than an asset.

She really shouldn't be forced period.

And going by your own logic...Samara should be forced.

Lo and behold she's not.

Why on earth should Jack be? Now *one* of them being forced I could understand (like how you don't have to have both Samara *and* Thane but you need at least one of them).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 mars 2013 - 05:50 .

[Fraq Hound]

Yes but she's MY awful human being and I won't have you bad mouthing her!

[nos_astra]

Vespervin wrote...
Did I mention the leaked script? Thought not. In the *current* version of the script, Garrus Vakarian is still an extremely high rank. Turian Generals were saluting him. He's in that position because he has fought against the Reapers. Makes the same amount of sense as Tali'Zorah being an Admiral.

No, it doesn't.

It's about as reasonable as Kaidan/Ashley becoming Spectres. Maybe not quite the level of WTF that Jack's ascension to teacher is. Everyone gets a big reward for following Shepard. No one is shown to have achieved anything noteworthy of their own. They all lack development that justifies the new status.

Garrus hasn't fought Reapers. He has fought collectors, walked around on a dead Reaper and has some experience in killing husks. That's about it. Certainly somewhat helpful but it doesn't mean he's fit for high command or can give valuable advise on strategic decisions to generals. He was also introduced to be an impatient, short-sighted hothead in ME1. I fail to see when that changed.

Modifié par klarabella, 19 mars 2013 - 06:07 .