369 réponses à ce sujet

[w0lfam0da1s]

klarabella wrote...

Vespervin wrote...
Did I mention the leaked script? Thought not. In the *current* version of the script, Garrus Vakarian is still an extremely high rank. Turian Generals were saluting him. He's in that position because he has fought against the Reapers. Makes the same amount of sense as Tali'Zorah being an Admiral.

No, it doesn't.

It's about as reasonable as Kaidan/Ashley becoming Spectres. Maybe not quite the level of WTF that Jack's ascension to teacher is. Everyone gets a big reward for following Shepard. No one is shown to have achieved anything noteworthy of their own. They all lack development that justifies the new status.

Garrus hasn't fought Reapers. He has fought collectors, walked around on a dead Reaper and has some experience in killing husks. That's about it. Certainly somewhat helpful but it doesn't mean he's fit for high command or can give valuable advise on strategic decisions to generals. He was also introduced to be an impatient, short-sighted hothead in ME1. I fail to see when that changed.

You said......
Garrus hasn't faught Reapers. He fought Collectors, walked around on a dead Reaper and has some experience in killing husk.

Did you forget that the very SHIP of  Saren Arterius was SOVEREIGN a REAPER at that.

I know that much and I didn't play the first game.

Also his background in C-Sect. Or the fact that truians are trained from a very youn age to become soldiers.

Some of our own real life Generals are or was at one point in their military carrer considered impatient, short-sighed and hotheaded.  That is just a FYI tidbit.

But all that aside. Nothing in the game really points to one thing or another to say Yes you earned it. Even with Ash or Kaidan it is something that Udina wants them to become. To have on his side for his political power hungry
ambitions.

I'm not saying that they wouldn't be good as a Spectres. But the moment that it was offered was for Udina's sake not theirs.

Besides that you do make good points.

Take that for what you will
Have A Good Day

[Nastrod]

Thane is a assassin
Wrex was a mercenary
Samara is very willing to kill innocents. A example if she was held for more then 24 by those police should would kill them all escaping if they got in her way.
Zaeed ran the Blue Suns and was a mercenary
Mordin worked on the genphage which is worse then anyone else
Morinth killed thousands and much more then Jack
Kasumi pretty much the best thief in the galaxy. Not murder but still a very much wanted criminal.

The crew is made up mostly of people that have horrible past.

[w0lfam0da1s]

Nastrod wrote...

Thane is a assassin
Wrex was a mercenary
Samara is very willing to kill innocents. A example if she was held for more then 24 by those police should would kill them all escaping if they got in her way.
Zaeed ran the Blue Suns and was a mercenary
Mordin worked on the genphage which is worse then anyone else
Morinth killed thousands and much more then Jack
Kasumi pretty much the best thief in the galaxy. Not murder but still a very much wanted criminal.

The crew is made up mostly of people that have horrible past.

VERY GOOD POINT

[nos_astra]

w0lfam0da1s wrote...
You said...... 
Garrus hasn't faught Reapers. He fought Collectors, walked around on a dead Reaper and has some experience in killing husk.

Did you forget that the very SHIP of  Saren Arterius was SOVEREIGN a REAPER at that.

I know that much and I didn't play the first game. 

Sure, and Garrus saw as much of it as everyone else. A hologram and later the fully indoctrinated Saren as his avatar.
Oh, and a huge chunk of Sovereign almost crushed him to death but that happened to everyone, too.

He helped taking down Saren which somehow led to Sovereign's shields failing (not that anyone really understood why) but Sovereign was actually taken down by Joker and the Alliance and the Citadel fleet.

So no, Garrus is not a Reaper expert. Just like Shepard is not a Reaper expert.

Also his background in C-Sect. Or the fact that truians are trained from a very youn age to become soldiers.

It was established that Garrus is a bad example of a turian.
He hates rules (because they are inconvenient) and has problems accepting authority from anyone who is not Shepard.

It is never shown or explained whether he overcame them and how.

Some of our own real life Generals are or was at one point in their military carrer considered impatient, short-sighed and hotheaded.  That is just a FYI tidbit.

If they are they probably have other traits to compensate for that. I doubt they became generals because of their flaws instead of despite them.

Garrus' defining traits are his overblown sense of justice (his default way to deal with any sort of injustice is kill the offender) and his unconditional loyalty to Shepard (bordering on hero-worship).

To make things worse, Garrus had the chance to become a Spectre, twice under certain circumstance ... and he quit every single time. 

Modifié par klarabella, 19 mars 2013 - 09:26 .

[Trikormadenadon]

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nykara wrote...

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nearly everyone you grow to love in these game is a mass murderer lol.

There is a difference between killing someone in defense who is shooting at you then just outright going and killing someone for the hell of it. They also don't generally go around killing civilians for no reason. Just sayin'.

Murder is murder, no matter how sentient life tries to twist the definition to justify it. Sentient life doesn't have the right to decide between good and bad, there is no such thing. Murder is murder. The intentional killing of life.

Any kind of circumstance, situation, justification that sentient life tries to add onto it to heal their concious is BS.

I'm not questioning their morals or anything. It's just that murdering to save another's life is still murder. Even if it's to save your own life. Murder is murder lol.

You know that nice kid in ME2 whose gun you can jam? Well he is a nice kid trying to get by, and if you don't jam the gun Garrus kills him. Garrus kills a good soul that's just confused. Who knows how many mercs are like that?

Take Jacob's loyalty mission where you shoot and kill the hunters. The hunters are the real victims, but we shoot them anyway. To survive? Sure, but it's still murder.

I think you need to grab a dictionary and look up the definition of murder again. Killing someone in self defense is not murder. The act of killing alone is not murder, it's the motivation of the act that determines if it is murder or not.

The concept of murder does not exist in nature, it is a construct defined by our society and as such anything our society deems to not be murder is then not murder and vice versa.

Modifié par Trikormadenadon, 19 mars 2013 - 09:28 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

klarabella wrote...

He hates rules (because they are inconvenient) and has problems accepting authority from anyone who is not Shepard.

This just isn't true at all. He has no problem with rules, he simply doesn't believe in following rules and authority blindly.

EDIT: It's also not true that he's blindly following Shepard. He's following Shepard because he believes in what s/he's doing. It's also not true that he 'quit every time' when trying out for the Spectres. The first time he never tried out because of his father (proving he listens to authority figures he trusts). The second time he was reeling from his friend's death, so, yeah.

... Why is this thread even talking about Garrus?

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 19 mars 2013 - 09:30 .

[nos_astra]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

klarabella wrote...
He hates rules (because they are inconvenient) and has problems accepting authority from anyone who is not Shepard.

This just isn't true at all. He has no problem with rules, he simply doesn't believe in following rules and authority blindly.

That's a very nice way of interpreting it.

Considering he even quit SPECTRE training and complained about too much red tape (on the renegade path) I'd say it's a too nice way.

However, Garrus popularity saved him the indignity of ever having to deal with the negative consequences of these traits as they're played up to be perfectly awesome and a sure sign of pure badassness.

EDIT: It's also not true that he's blindly following Shepard. He's following Shepard because he believes in what s/he's doing.

He pretty much defaults to whatever Shepard is doing is right. That's pretty blind.

It's also not true that he 'quit every time' when trying out for the Spectres. The first time he never tried out because of his father (proving he listens to authority figures he trusts). The second time he was reeling from his friend's death, so, yeah.

That doesn't make it better. Quitting, not thinking things through, tendency to hero-worship ... not the most appealing traits. Could make for an interesting character if the narrative acknowledges them and the character got to deal with them. The narrative doesn't and that makes Garrus sort of annoying. He's the players' pet and the writers' pet.

He's nice, though. And his oneliners are funny. But he's also pretty bland.

... Why is this thread even talking about Garrus?

Character analysis. To show that Jack is not the only one whose problematic sides are handwaved to please fans.

Modifié par klarabella, 19 mars 2013 - 09:44 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

It's not an interpretation, it's a fact based on his actual dialogue. He does not believe in following the letter of the law at the expense of what he believes is right. That doesn't make him incapable of following rules. He has done plenty of rule and order following through the game. He's also done plenty of questioning when he doesn't agree with those rules because he's not a sheep.

And he dealt with negative consequences when everyone on his team got killed and he got half his face blown off.

As for his 'overblown sense of justice'... Well, you might want to look at some of the other stuff turians do. Harsh punishments are par for the course.

[nos_astra]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
And he dealt with negative consequences when everyone on his team got killed and he got half his face blown off. 

I could have sworn people point to Omega to show how awesome and badass Garrus is and how much of a leader.

I only saw that his strategic thinking leaves to be desired.

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
As for his 'overblown sense of justice'... Well, you might want to look at some of the other stuff turians do. Harsh punishments are par for the course.

Unlike with Garrus the narrative keeps a critical distance when others act on this.

Modifié par klarabella, 19 mars 2013 - 09:49 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

klarabella wrote...

That doesn't make it better. Quitting, not thinking things through, tendency to hero-worship ... not the most appealing traits.

Except those aren't his traits, those are your interpretations of his traits which are all massive generalizations with little basis in fact.

[Han Shot First]

Nastrod wrote...

Thane is a assassin
Wrex was a mercenary
Samara is very willing to kill innocents. A example if she was held for more then 24 by those police should would kill them all escaping if they got in her way.
Zaeed ran the Blue Suns and was a mercenary
Mordin worked on the genphage which is worse then anyone else
Morinth killed thousands and much more then Jack
Kasumi pretty much the best thief in the galaxy. Not murder but still a very much wanted criminal.

The crew is made up mostly of people that have horrible past.

Also, Miranda and Jacob belong to a terrorist organization.

Shepard's crew in Mass Effect 2 is basically the The Dirty Dozen in Space. While the ME1 squadmates mostly came from squeeky clean backgrounds (Wrex being the exception), the ME2 crew is full of rogues and criminals with the exception of Team Dextro. And even Garrus was teeetering on the edge of roguedom with the whole vigilante routine.

[Aggie Punbot]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Yeah, everyone getting big promotions randomly is pretty silly.

At least none of them are really major plot points that actually affect anything, and as such are relatively easy to ignore.

Please forgive me for making this off-topic post but I thought that the reason that everyone got promoted was to illustrate just how many people were dying. The higher-ups need to replaced by someone, and if their immediate subordinates are also killed, they just keep going down the list of qualified individuals until they find someone who is capable of the position and still alive. This is the reason I can accept Kaidan gaining four promotion ranks in 3 years.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 20 mars 2013 - 03:00 .

[whalewhisker]

Steelcan wrote...

Jack can join the list. Wrex was a mercenary for centuries, Miranda was the second in command of a notorious terrorist organization, Morinth makes Jack look cuddly by comparison, Samara kills without remorse or hesitation, Zaeed....well he's Zaeed. Jack is pretty par for the course

Basically, this. ME2 squad had a lot of not-so-good people.

[spirosz]

Gamer072196 wrote...

Jack don't give a sh*t about anything.

Actually, she gives a **** about a lot of things.  She just doesn't need to feel the need to show it because it's personal and I see her leaning towards an introvert and well... she was raised in you know.

Modifié par spirosz, 20 mars 2013 - 03:40 .

[KiwiQuiche]

KainD wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
I hate how people use the "She was only a violent psycho because she was abused, she had no control over herself, she was conditioned!"
Yes she was, but that doesn't justify her going and killing other people and destroying property due to her angst.

It DOES justify her completely. 

lol no. Maybe when she was a child, but as an adult who is free to do as she pleases? No.

[Isichar]

Past baggage is tougher to move passed then some people will ever admit and Jack has more baggage then just about anyone. I agree Jack is a despicable person in a sense because that was a path she was put on in life. What I find amazing is that she truly changes into someone who is actually capable of caring about others. It makes you wonder what kind of person she would have been if she had grown up normally...

Its pretty sick when you think about it. Taking a little girl and drugging her up to make her actually enjoy the feeling of killing. If you grew up being conditioned like that you would have serious baggage too, and would probably be lucky to be able to carry on any kind of real life, let alone one that you can help contribute to others lives.

Jack made me proud by the end. She stopped playing the victim and took control of her life, a life that had been built on killing and been controlled.

[spirosz]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KainD wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
I hate how people use the "She was only a violent psycho because she was abused, she had no control over herself, she was conditioned!"
Yes she was, but that doesn't justify her going and killing other people and destroying property due to her angst.

It DOES justify her completely. 

lol no. Maybe when she was a child, but as an adult who is free to do as she pleases? No.

Yes it does.  Think about it, if you were grown up to violence and more violence, what is more natural to you?  Violence, either acting in a violent nature or causing it because, especially in Jack's case, she was conditioned to this state of mind and it's normal to her.  Of course it wouldn't see right to anyone not growing up the way Jack did, but she has a viable excuse, even if it's not right in society terms.  

Modifié par spirosz, 20 mars 2013 - 12:45 .

[Daniel_N7]

Isichar wrote...

Past baggage is tougher to move passed then some people will ever admit and Jack has more baggage then just about anyone. I agree Jack is a despicable person in a sense because that was a path she was put on in life. What I find amazing is that she truly changes into someone who is actually capable of caring about others. It makes you wonder what kind of person she would have been if she had grown up normally...

Its pretty sick when you think about it. Taking a little girl and drugging her up to make her actually enjoy the feeling of killing. If you grew up being conditioned like that you would have serious baggage too, and would probably be lucky to be able to carry on any kind of real life, let alone one that you can help contribute to others lives.

Jack made me proud by the end. She stopped playing the victim and took control of her life, a life that had been built on killing and been controlled.

This. I loved the feeling I got from having my Shepard "change" her. At least that was the perception I got from my interactions with her. So I was really proud to see her in ME3, that she had turned around as a human being, that she now cared about others and was willing to put her life on the line for them.

So as much as I get the OP's point of view, I think the message the game delivers is quite constructive.

Also, she's a really cool badass and I love her tattoos.

[Han Shot First]

Seboist wrote...

Tali being an Admiral is one of the dumbest things in ME3. She's apparently so awesome that she gets promoted to that despite never even having been the captain of a rowboat and gets to play action sidekick waifu.

Also in both of her previous experiences with combat leadership her teams were annihilated. That isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for promotion.

That didn't bother me however because I viewed it as a political appointment rather than one based on merit, and the Quarian leadership as a whole was criminally incompetent. The only Quarian Admiral with a lick of sense was Admiral Koris.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 20 mars 2013 - 03:01 .

[Ryzaki]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Yeah, everyone getting big promotions randomly is pretty silly.

At least none of them are really major plot points that actually affect anything, and as such are relatively easy to ignore.

Please forgive me for making this off-topic post but I thought that the reason that everyone got promoted was to illustrate just how many people were dying. The higher-ups need to replaced by someone, and if their immediate subordinates are also killed, they just keep going down the list of qualified individuals until they find someone who is capable of the position and still alive. This is the reason I can accept Kaidan gaining four promotion ranks in 3 years.

This Reaper war has people dropping like flies.

[Han Shot First]

Kaidan and Ashley gets promoted to Lt. Commander prior to the Reaper War however. I don't think their promotions can be attributed to massive casualties, though of course players can head canon that they don't get promoted until after Earth is invaded.

[Ryzaki]

Han Shot First wrote...

Kaidan and Ashley gets promoted to Lt. Commander prior to the Reaper War however. I don't think their promotions can be attributed to massive casualties, though of course players can head canon that they don't get promoted until after Earth is invaded.

Didn't a whole bunch of people die in the fight against Sovereign? Especially if you decided to save the Council?

[Han Shot First]

Ryzaki wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Kaidan and Ashley gets promoted to Lt. Commander prior to the Reaper War however. I don't think their promotions can be attributed to massive casualties, though of course players can head canon that they don't get promoted until after Earth is invaded.

Didn't a whole bunch of people die in the fight against Sovereign? Especially if you decided to save the Council?

Only a few thousand.

2400 humans die in the battle of the Citadel if the Council is saved. Unless the Alliance was a tiny organization of only a few thousand people (which would contradict lore, as humanity is a militarily powerful faction) that wouldn't be nearly enough to so thoroughly deplete the ranks that an enlisted man (Ashley) could jump several ranks to Lt. Commander. You'd need hundreds of thousands or millions of casualties before things got that dire.

[w0lfam0da1s]

Han Shot First wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Kaidan and Ashley gets promoted to Lt. Commander prior to the Reaper War however. I don't think their promotions can be attributed to massive casualties, though of course players can head canon that they don't get promoted until after Earth is invaded.

Didn't a whole bunch of people die in the fight against Sovereign? Especially if you decided to save the Council?

Only a few thousand.

2400 humans die in the battle of the Citadel if the Council is saved. Unless the Alliance was a tiny organization of only a few thousand people (which would contradict lore, as humanity is a militarily powerful faction) that wouldn't be nearly enough to so thoroughly deplete the ranks that an enlisted man (Ashley) could jump several ranks to Lt. Commander. You'd need hundreds of thousands or millions of casualties before things got that dire.

As someone who knows a bit about this. I can honestly say that it also can depend on what you do in war time.

Like a team out on a special mission who is ranked no diffrently then the team of soldiers who are out scouting and whatnot but are also gettin shot at.

The special mission team may be tasked with much more of a dangerous and costly mission. 

Its like the diffrence between high risk and low risk.

So the special mission team see's more action. Then the soldiers on that team could get promoted based on what they did during that mission.

It's not so diffrent from a private in real like getting promoted to Lieutenant due to what happened to them during war.

Yes someone else could be more preparied for that job. However sometimes its how you did during the war the marks you for promotions.

Vietnam War was a good example of our recent times that has soldiers going from private to Lieutenant. Alot of them will tell you that they didn't and don't feel like they justly got the promotion.
That is a total diffrent story and one I don't want to get into.

I do understand how it don't make sence. I really do. Alot of the stuff that could or should be explaned just isn't and that is why so much makes you question and be like what that He**.

I'm not trying to say your wrong far from it. I'm just trying to point to the flaws in the story.

Have A Good Day