369 réponses à ce sujet

[Ykulnu]

spirosz wrote...

Ykulnu wrote...

Exile Isan wrote...

The thing about Jack is how much of the stuff she talks about it actually stuff she's done? Or is she just exaggerating about?

This. Playing her loyalty mission made me realize that she isn't just some hurt, scarred girl. She's a goddamn liar. The contradictions you encounter in that mission are so different than what she says that it's impossible for her to have just had some misunderstandings. Also, if she was able to kill tons of trained Cerberus guards during her escape,  then WHY did she allow herself to be used by those people that found her? Yes, I said allowed. Those people weren't trained, and it's not like she suddenly decided to stop killing. Yeah, she had it rough, but that doesn't change facts. Either she is outright lying, or she's even MORE crazy than we know.

Bioware made the mistake of taking her backstory to the extreme, to the point of unfeasability. She could have been a great character if she was toned down.

Because maybe they influenced Jack into thinking they weren't going to "use" her and see past her restraits and as a "normal" person.  Pragia was like an anchor for her, when she went back there, everything just exploded in her mind, all those memories, the drugs, the abuse.  Now consider the fact that she continued down a horrible path for who knows how long, taking what form of future drugs the ME universe has, of course it's going to **** with her memory.   

When you grow up in her environment, where physical and mental abuse is the first thing she's always exposed to... and then she thinks she's found something different in these new people because it feels different, it looks different, yet she couldn't realize at the time - they're using her, just in different matters.  

I'll admit, you make a very good point. She makes more sense to me now... In ME2, at least. I'm still not sold on her becoming a teacher for children after that background. I could see her piquing the interest of the Alliance and joining a squad, maybe Kaidan's biotic cell, but teaching children 6 months out? It's hard to believe. 

Then again, she was meant to be a squad member in ME3 before Tali was shoehorned in, so the backstory for 3 is somewhat understandably contrived. Same goes for her lack of content.

[ThatDancingTurian]

klarabella wrote...

I fail to see how Jack's history making sense makes her any less of a liability.

Her emotional stability and mental health are questionable. She may or may no lie about what she's done in the past. Who would think that recruting her to face more death and destruction would be a good idea for anyone?

Jack doesn't break down in the sight of destruction, it seems to be where she's at her most focused. Honestly, giving her an army of faceless, unfeeling monsters to use as an outlet for her rage might actually be good for her.

In any case, it couldn't be any worse than leaving her to her own devices without guidance or help. Or leaving her in prison where that corrupt warden would sell her off to any madman with the money and a need for a biotic gladiator.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 17 mars 2013 - 04:09 .

[Obadiah]

Saiyan1126 wrote...

GoldenPersona wrote...

Murder is murder, no matter how sentient life tries to twist the definition to justify it. Sentient life doesn't have the right to decide between good and bad, there is no such thing. Murder is murder. The intentional killing of life.

Any kind of circumstance, situation, justification that sentient life tries to add onto it to heal their concious is BS.

I'm not questioning their morals or anything. It's just that murdering to save another's life is still murder. Even if it's to save your own life. Murder is murder lol.

You know that nice kid in ME2 whose gun  you can jam? Well he is a nice kid trying to get by, and if you don't jam the gun Garrus kills him. Garrus kills a good soul that's just confused. Who knows how many mercs are like that?

I'm going by the most base an direct definition of murder. All the circumstances and whatnot attached to pretty up the idea of murder is meaningless. It's murder.

Murder: the unlawful killing of one human by another.

Self defense is legal, thus isn't murder. Also, Garrus isn't human, so yeah...

What GoldenPersona is decribing is homicide.

Modifié par Obadiah, 17 mars 2013 - 04:42 .

[Zagardal]

GoldenPersona wrote...

Here is my updated response.

Murder is murder, no matter how sentient life tries to twist the definition to justify it. Sentient life doesn't have the right to decide between good and bad, there is no such thing. Murder is murder. The intentional killing of life.

Actually we can, good and bad are just points of view. They don't really exist, we made them up, and as such, we get to apply those terms to any situation we want. The same goes for "rights", we made that stuff up and so we can argue whether they are applicable or not. Murder is murder, I'll give you that, but to say there are no such things as extenuating circumstances is just denying part of the human condition.

[w0lfam0da1s]

klarabella wrote...

I fail to see how Jack's history making sense makes her any less of a liability.

Her emotional stability and mental health are questionable. She may or may no lie about what she's done in the past. Who would think that recruting her to face more death and destruction would be a good idea for anyone?

you make a good point.

however think about the fact that we do it all the time in real life

the soldier who seen so much death is sent out time and time again. to do what they do best kill.

then if the make it home alive once the war is over and say they snap and kill their family we put the blame on them and not what caused it. the mental breakdown caused by over exposure to death and killing.

but yet at the same time that very soldier may be considred a hero based on what they did.

so it's just something to think about.

have a good day

[HolyAvenger]

Jack's no worse than the rest of the crew. Thane? Assassin, professional murderer. Miranda? Kills Wilson without a second though. Garrus? Body count in the hundreds.

[ThatDancingTurian]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Jack's no worse than the rest of the crew. Thane? Assassin, professional murderer. Miranda? Kills Wilson without a second though. Garrus? Body count in the hundreds.

And if we're talking trust and mental stability, remember that Thane is not only an assassin, but he has the ability to completely excuse himself from personal accountability. That to me is scarier than Jack, at least I understand where she's coming from.

And don't forget Grunt, gleefully reveling in the maiming and killing of turians in his head.

To be honest, my Shepard didn't fully trust anyone on the SR2 during those days except for Joker, Garrus and Tali. So what's one more on the pile?

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 17 mars 2013 - 04:20 .

[Display Name Owner]

She absolutely is. Although we were obviously meant to sympathise with her for the time she spent being victimised (and don't get me wrong, I certainly do), it kind of irks me how we're also supposed to ignore the time she spent victimising other people. Many serial killers irl were abused and experienced horrible childhoods, but that doesn't excuse the horrible things they go on to do, does it?

Also, she may have been lying about some of what she did, but I mean, she was locked up in the galaxy's prison for the worst offenders. The things she's done are a matter of recorded fact, not that we personally see those records. I have a hard time believing everyone she's hurt deserved it just because she says so.

[Zazzerka]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Remember ilos? You can kill a bunch of colonists just for your convienience. Is that not monsterous?

You mean Feros, surely.

[Zazzerka]

Similar decor.

[nos_astra]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
Jack doesn't break down in the sight of destruction, it seems to be where she's at her most focused. Honestly, giving her an army of faceless, unfeeling monsters to use as an outlet for her rage might actually be good for her.

Let's agree to disagree here.

In any case, it couldn't be any worse than leaving her to her own devices without guidance or help. Or leaving her in prison where that corrupt warden would sell her off to any madman with the money and a need for a biotic gladiator.

And guidance and help must be provided by Shepard because Shepard is the only person in the galaxy who could probably help her?

Any reason why she can't be saved and dropped of somehwere she can be taken care of if you feel uncofmortable dragging her into a suicide mission? 

Because I'm building a team for a mission, not saving furious kittens from burning trees for the heck of it. As Shepard I'd prefer my squad stable and dependable. Military grade training not optional.

Modifié par klarabella, 17 mars 2013 - 04:34 .

[MEGoWH777]

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nykara wrote...

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nearly everyone you grow to love in these game is a mass murderer lol.

There is a difference between killing someone in defense who is shooting at you then just outright going and killing someone for the hell of it. They also don't generally go around killing civilians for no reason. Just sayin'.

Murder is murder, no matter how sentient life tries to twist the definition to justify it. Sentient life doesn't have the right to decide between good and bad, there is no such thing. Murder is murder. The intentional killing of life.

Any kind of circumstance, situation, justification that sentient life tries to add onto it to heal their concious is BS.

I'm not questioning their morals or anything. It's just that murdering to save another's life is still murder. Even if it's to save your own life. Murder is murder lol.

You know that nice kid in ME2 whose gun you can jam? Well he is a nice kid trying to get by, and if you don't jam the gun Garrus kills him. Garrus kills a good soul that's just confused. Who knows how many mercs are like that?

Take Jacob's loyalty mission where you shoot and kill the hunters. The hunters are the real victims, but we shoot them anyway. To survive? Sure, but it's still murder.

Murder is the unjust killing of another sentient being eg. a robber killing a bank clerk.

The majority of shepard and his squadmates kills have been other soldiers, criminals or Geth, they have been justified because they were the instigators of the fight, therefore it was simply killing and self defence, not murder.

The only team mates who are murderers are jack, possibly wrex and arguably samara. if killing someone for the greater good or in selfdefense was murder, a whole lot of soldiers would be criminals as they had killed, despite be ordered by the government to do it.

[M Hedonist]

She is? I had no idea.

[Obadiah]

Jack is a sociopath. If she was a psychopath, there wouldn't be an option to stop her from killing Aresh - someone who less than a minute before tried to have Shep's squad killed.

[nos_astra]

HolyAvenger wrote...
Jack's no worse than the rest of the crew. Thane? Assassin, professional murderer. Miranda? Kills Wilson without a second though. Garrus? Body count in the hundreds.

I edited my ME2 save specfically to remove most of these characters (Jack, Thane, Garrus, Grunt, Samara) and substituted the game with headcanon.

At least I'm mostly consistent. 

Modifié par klarabella, 17 mars 2013 - 04:41 .

[o Ventus]

GoldenPersona wrote...

Murder is murder, no matter how sentient life tries to twist the definition to justify it. Sentient life doesn't have the right to decide between good and bad, there is no such thing. Murder is murder. The intentional killing of life.

Any kind of circumstance, situation, justification that sentient life tries to add onto it to heal their concious is BS.

So if a crazed gunman is attacking me, I should just let him kill me so I don't damage my dainty, perfectly set moral compass?

[o Ventus]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Jack's no worse than the rest of the crew. Thane? Assassin, professional murderer.

Because he grew up knowing nothing else.

Miranda? Kills Wilson without a second though.

Because Wilson was planning on betraying and killing her, Jacob, and Shepard. He already killed everybody else on the station by hacking the mechs.

[HolyAvenger]

klarabella wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...
Jack's no worse than the rest of the crew. Thane? Assassin, professional murderer. Miranda? Kills Wilson without a second though. Garrus? Body count in the hundreds.

I edited my ME2 save specfically to remove most of these characters (Jack, Thane, Garrus, Grunt, Samara) and substituted the game with headcanon.

At least I'm mostly consistent. 

 

Great. I'm sure its an awesome game, but it isn't ME2:P

[HolyAvenger]

o Ventus wrote...


Because he grew up knowing nothing else.

Neither did Jack. 

o Ventus wrote...


Because Wilson was planning on betraying and killing her, Jacob, and Shepard. He already killed everybody else on the station by hacking the mechs.

 

No proof to any of that. She could have simply captured him instead of putting a bullet through his head.

etc.