Obadiah wrote...
Jack is a sociopath. If she was a psychopath, there wouldn't be an option to stop her from killing Aresh - someone who less than a minute before tried to have Shep's squad killed.
Baelrahn wrote...
Thoughts, opinions?
Modifié par JakeMacDon, 17 mars 2013 - 04:53 .
HolyAvenger wrote...
No proof to any of that. She could have simply captured him instead of putting a bullet through his head.
etc.
KainD wrote...
Obadiah wrote...
Jack is a sociopath. If she was a psychopath, there wouldn't be an option to stop her from killing Aresh - someone who less than a minute before tried to have Shep's squad killed.
Story does not support Jack as a sociopath. Sociopath's don't care for other people, Jack does.
A little strongly noted........but I agree whole heartedly.JakeMacDon wrote...
Baelrahn wrote...
Thoughts, opinions?
From the looks of things, I don't think you paid as much attention to her as you claimed.
Let's look at her story: Jack was kidnapped at a very young age, barely out of infancy. She was then subjected to horrendous abuse and surgeries without anesthesia because some quack thought pain would make her a better biotic. Now, I'm not sure how much excrutiating agony you've ever gone through on a regular basis, but constant pain can seriously screw with your head - it invokes animal responses, it can strip thought from you with a rather frightening ease.
Add the drugs they constantly filled her with and the continual conditioning with pain and more drugs and isolation - she never saw another human being in the flesh unless she was either being "persuaded" to kill them or being tortured by them - and why would anyone not a total cretin think she was the way she was of her own volition? She was made that way. They took a little kid and raped her in every way imaginable.
Yet, she's the "awful" one. Uh-huh. Yeah. Right. Let's enlighten some of you moral uprights: humans as a rule have to be conditioned, pushed, forced or drilled into killing - professional soldiers are professional killers - the only difference between Jack and Shepard is the bullsh!t they were fed to make them cross that line, and how they are treated by society after they do. If you're going to invoke some idiotic absolute morality, EVERYONE in Shepard's crew in any of the games - including Shepard - are killers. They are all murderers, legal sanctions - read: bullsh!t - is the only thing that separates them from criminals.
Jack was never a psychopath, that was shorthand marketing crap - conditioned sociopath, absolutely. She was conditioned to kill, through the drugs and praise she became addicted to it - it's what Cerberus wanted. She was supposed to be a disposable weapon. Jack was a prototype. She was never considered a human being by anyone who made her into what she was, and I doubt she even thought of herself as one. She was never in control of single aspect of her life until she escaped - and in her state of mind getting the details wrong is completely forgivable.
Getting out into the larger universe? Well, she wasn't exactly taught social skills, was she? She did the best she could with the very little she actually knew. It was also a perfect recipe for people to use her. After she got older and realized what was really going on, well, what would you do? Get religion? She tried that. Drugs? Crime? Anything that gave you any kind of answer that made even the remotest sense?
Do you have any clue how long abuse lingers in and shapes a person's psyche? Something as "simple" as just being told you're ugly every day? That's violence, dude - and it's as bad as a daily punch to the face - especially coming from someone who says they care.
Yet - Jack rises above it. She comes to understands it. We don't know the full details of her "crimes", we only have her word for it - and most of them she did not do alone, so we have no idea just how much she actually did. Someone like Shepard - who doesn't redeem her, by the way - he just gives her the chance to see something different and the space to think and maybe redeem herself. Jack gets it. Jack knows what she's done and she knows from whence the impulses come. She's not "awful" - maladjusted, a bit broken and a lot wounded, yeah.
To simply dismiss her is nothing more than some cretinious variation of "blaming the victim", it's the bully's and the priest's and the cop's and the frustrated ******'s excuse for their own weaknesses. If Jack is a true criminal, they all are, Shepard included. Shepard's killed more people than Jack's ever managed in her wildest dreams - yet s/he's a hero. The difference lies in only one thing: Shepard has permission.
You don't have to like her, but to label her as "awful" or "criminal" is not only missing the entire point, it's astonishingly ignorant and wrong.
o Ventus wrote...
HolyAvenger wrote...
No proof to any of that. She could have simply captured him instead of putting a bullet through his head.
etc.
Play LotSB.
Capturing Wilson would arguably have been worse.
Miranda shows up and tells Shepard and Jacob that Wilson is going to kill them. Shepard and Jacob confront Wilson, and Wilson denies it. There's no damning proof against Wilson outside the Shadow Broker dossier, so nothing would be achieved. At that point in time, killing him was the only way to assuredly avoid an incident.
I always trusted the Locust Queen because I knew she'd patch me up. The real reason she couldn't make it to the Citadel party is because she had a meeting on Sera.Cthulhu42 wrote...
How can you not trust Dr. Chakwas?Aris Ravenstar wrote...
To be honest, my Shepard didn't fully trust anyone on the SR2 during those days except for Joker, Garrus and Tali.
It's because she's the Locust Queen, isn't it?
HolyAvenger wrote...
Metagaming. Miranda does not know this at the time.
Han Shot First wrote...
Is Jack being completely honest with Shepard, or is part of her 'act' just bluster?
I actually lean towards the latter, considering there seems to be a fairly compassionate human being beneath the angry hard@ss persona. Also since Jack later evolves into a teacher, and the Alliance is willing to take her on as one, I doubt her crimes extended to the cold-blooded murder of civilians. Otherwise her character transformation wouldn't make a lick of sense.
Piracy? Sure. Executing mercs or other pirates? I can see that. But I don't think she's killed civilians.
Modifié par Lizardviking, 17 mars 2013 - 05:02 .
o Ventus wrote...
HolyAvenger wrote...
Metagaming. Miranda does not know this at the time.
Miranda knows enough to deduce that Wilson is a traitor.
Yep. Even if Shepard was a complete douchebag and did nothing but berate his crew, everyone still remembers the "good times".Lizardviking wrote...
Han Shot First wrote...
Is Jack being completely honest with Shepard, or is part of her 'act' just bluster?
I actually lean towards the latter, considering there seems to be a fairly compassionate human being beneath the angry hard@ss persona. Also since Jack later evolves into a teacher, and the Alliance is willing to take her on as one, I doubt her crimes extended to the cold-blooded murder of civilians. Otherwise her character transformation wouldn't make a lick of sense.
Piracy? Sure. Executing mercs or other pirates? I can see that. But I don't think she's killed civilians.
You say that as if consistency has been a strong point in this franchise.
HolyAvenger wrote...
Merely your opinion. Mine is she is a cold-blooded killer.
o Ventus wrote...
HolyAvenger wrote...
Merely your opinion. Mine is she is a cold-blooded killer.
Miranda even says that Wilson was a traitor after she killed him.
This, plus the dossier points to her having some form of knowledge. Enough to conclude that Wilson was going to kill Shepard.
Fact, not opinion.
HolyAvenger wrote...
She suspects he was a traitor, she has no proof.
If you have facts, feel free to provide them. LotSB is of course, irrelevant as it provides facts after the event.
o Ventus wrote...
HolyAvenger wrote...
Merely your opinion. Mine is she is a cold-blooded killer.
Miranda even says that Wilson was a traitor after she killed him.
This, plus the dossier points to her having some form of knowledge. Enough to conclude that Wilson was going to kill Shepard.
Fact, not opinion.
Sociopaths are incapable of caring about other people. And it isn't just cured because someone was nice to you either. She cared for people before Shepard - she did care about Manara. And that cult. They were just douchebags and turned on her. Or she suspected as much and turned on them first. Either way, the motivation is different then a sociopaths.Coachdongwiffle wrote...
KainD wrote...
Obadiah wrote...
Jack is a sociopath. If she was a psychopath, there wouldn't be an option to stop her from killing Aresh - someone who less than a minute before tried to have Shep's squad killed.
Story does not support Jack as a sociopath. Sociopath's don't care for other people, Jack does.
This was post Shepard. Before Shepard she never had any purpose she just survived the way she was raised to survive. After she meets Shepard she isn't off murdering people.
Modifié par MACharlie1, 17 mars 2013 - 05:21 .
The Mad Hanar wrote...
Imagine the nightmares Shepard would have if he knew the names and story behind every person he killed. Not all of em were evil.
Obadiah wrote...
Jack is a sociopath. If she was a psychopath, there wouldn't be an option to stop her from killing Aresh - someone who less than a minute before tried to have Shep's squad killed.
o Ventus wrote...
HolyAvenger wrote...
She suspects he was a traitor, she has no proof.
If you have facts, feel free to provide them. LotSB is of course, irrelevant as it provides facts after the event.
Like I said, there was no hard proof to give. If she were to take the pacifistic route and detain Wilson on the grounds of betraying them, Wilson can deny it all and get away scot free.
LotSB is most certainly not irrelevant because it occurs after the fact. Denying evidence that appears AFTER the action is taken is the most asinine thing you can possibly do.
In the Consensus mission, we ostensibly see Legion fire the first shot in what would become a Geth-on-Quarian genocide.Sundance31us wrote...
When you first encounter Wrex he's a bounty hunter, but makes it clear that he was working for Saren before that. If I remember correctly they were raiding commerce ships and I seriously doubt anyone was allowed to live once a ship was taken. In fact I seem to recall Wrex saying he first encountered Saren while he was looting bodies.
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