369 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

HolyAvenger wrote...

The evidence appearing after the fact is not being ignored, it just means it can't be used as justification for her murder.

> I present evidence
>"That doesn't count, you found that after it happened!"

I should t have to point out how f**king retarded this is.

And you have no hard proof, hence your opinion versus my opinion., 

Except for that Shadow Broker dossier. Oh, and the supplemental evidence of the audio recordings that Wilson left, and the events of the Redemption comics.

[lyssalu]

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nykara wrote...

GoldenPersona wrote...

Nearly everyone you grow to love in these game is a mass murderer lol.

There is a difference between killing someone in defense who is shooting at you then just outright going and killing someone for the hell of it. They also don't generally go around killing civilians for no reason. Just sayin'.

Murder is murder, no matter how sentient life tries to twist the definition to justify it. Sentient life doesn't have the right to decide between good and bad, there is no such thing. Murder is murder. The intentional killing of life.

Any kind of circumstance, situation, justification that sentient life tries to add onto it to heal their concious is BS.

I'm not questioning their morals or anything. It's just that murdering to save another's life is still murder. Even if it's to save your own life. Murder is murder lol.

You know that nice kid in ME2 whose gun you can jam? Well he is a nice kid trying to get by, and if you don't jam the gun Garrus kills him. Garrus kills a good soul that's just confused. Who knows how many mercs are like that?

Take Jacob's loyalty mission where you shoot and kill the hunters. The hunters are the real victims, but we shoot them anyway. To survive? Sure, but it's still murder.

arent you as a sentient arbitrarily ascribing inherent value to the act of taking a life

ur logic dont follow bro

[K2LU533]

Yes, she was an awful person but she can be redeemed.

[Saiyan1126]

This whole Miranda argument is ridiculous. Forget about killing Wilson. She was a proud top agent of a known terrorist agency. You don't get to meet with TIM in person with clean hands. She's able to completely justify Cerberus' actions pre-Collector Base. If someone can bear though Mass Effect Galaxy, I'm sure you can find a better example of Miranda's ruthlessness.

[Sundance31us]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Miranda and Samara are introduced by executing people in cold blood.

“Prospective Eclipse operatives, at least on Illium, are rumored to be required to successfully commit a murder before they can be given their uniform.” ME Wiki

I’m not going to shed a tear over the Eclipse mercs Samara kills…that said she would have blown through that police station like butter if Shepard hadn’t intervened.

[HolyAvenger]

o Ventus wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

The evidence appearing after the fact is not being ignored, it just means it can't be used as justification for her murder.

> I present evidence
>"That doesn't count, you found that after it happened!"

I should t have to point out how f**king retarded this is.

And you have no hard proof, hence your opinion versus my opinion., 

Except for that Shadow Broker dossier. Oh, and the supplemental evidence of the audio recordings that Wilson left, and the events of the Redemption comics.

 

Let me repeat what I have already written elsewhere: evidence presented after the fact cannot act as justification, logically. Lay off the personal attacks, wouldja. 

Never read Redemption. Wilson's audio recordings do not present hard evidence. 


This "debate" is idiotic. Clearly Miranda is more than capable of killing in cold blood when necessary. Its not really a flaw or a bad thing about her, personally. I like that facet to her. 

[o Ventus]

Saiyan1126 wrote...

This whole Miranda argument is ridiculous. Forget about killing Wilson. She was a proud top agent of a known terrorist agency. You don't get to meet with TIM in person with clean hands. She's able to completely justify Cerberus' actions pre-Collector Base. If someone can bear though Mass Effect Galaxy, I'm sure you can find a better example of Miranda's ruthlessness.

She also tells you that the only thing she was in charge of was Lazarus. 

She doesn't "completely justify Cerberus' actions", she only justifies those seen by Shepard in ME1, and her justifications make perfect sense.

[Saiyan1126]

o Ventus wrote...

Saiyan1126 wrote...

This whole Miranda argument is ridiculous. Forget about killing Wilson. She was a proud top agent of a known terrorist agency. You don't get to meet with TIM in person with clean hands. She's able to completely justify Cerberus' actions pre-Collector Base. If someone can bear though Mass Effect Galaxy, I'm sure you can find a better example of Miranda's ruthlessness.

She also tells you that the only thing she was in charge of was Lazarus. 

She doesn't "completely justify Cerberus' actions", she only justifies those seen by Shepard in ME1, and her justifications make perfect sense.

Miranda was a part of Cerberus long before Lazarus. She joined after she ran away from her father. How exactly does the Akuze experiements and killing Admiral Kohoku make perfect sense? She mentions Husks and Rachni, then justifies the rest by saying Shepard had to cross the line a few times too.

Miranda and Jack are both ruthless characters that begin to grow a conscience after working with Shepard. They're parallel characters, that's why they were given a confrontation scene like Tali and Legion.

Modifié par Saiyan1126, 17 mars 2013 - 05:59 .

[NeonFlux117]

Renegade Shepard is way worse. But yes, Jack is a damaged human being and incredibly violent. But by the time ME3 rolls around she's done pretty much a complete 180. but jack, like many characters of ME2 have a depth of both good and evil. Mordin is another one. He's pretty ruthless but he does have a good side to. Garrus is fairly dark in ME2 and Grunt is a renegade. Even Kasumi, a thief, isn't a "model citizen". And then there's Zaeed- this guy is just a beast. A true sociopath, but a likeable one at that.

[MACharlie1]

Are we seriously debating about how ruthless characters? And that makes them horrible people? For Godsake...

- Liara: is being hunted by a couple of Cerberus troops and puts them into a singularity thereby disarming them and having them helpless as she MURDERS them.
- Garrus: Admits that he wanted to shoot down a shuttle with civilians on it. Shoots first asks questions later. Would have done the SAME EXACT THING in Mirandas place.
- Samara: breaks the neck of an unarmed merc
- Thane: Shoots a probably unskilled businesswoman in the stomach after murdering her guards for no other reason then his own personal issues that actually had nothing to do with Nassana.
- Zaeed: Beats up unarmed prisoner and then on his loyalty mission slowly burns to death Vido (also unarmed).

This maybe a bit of a surprise but...the entire bloody squad is made up of a bunch of murderers. They are all horrible people...

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Good to see the OP gets the due tar and feathers.

[spirosz]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

JakeMacDon wrote...

Baelrahn wrote...

Thoughts, opinions?

From the looks of things, I don't think you paid as much attention to her as you claimed.

Let's look at her story:  Jack was kidnapped at a very young age, barely out of infancy.  She was then subjected to horrendous abuse and surgeries without anesthesia because some quack thought pain would make her a better biotic.  Now, I'm not sure how much excrutiating agony you've ever gone through on a regular basis, but constant pain can seriously screw with your head - it invokes animal responses, it can strip thought from you with a rather frightening ease.

Add the drugs they constantly filled her with and the continual conditioning with pain and more drugs and isolation - she never saw another human being in the flesh unless she was either being "persuaded" to kill them or being tortured by them - and why would anyone not a total cretin think she was the way she was of her own volition? She was made that way.  They took a little kid and raped her in every way imaginable.

Yet, she's the "awful" one.  Uh-huh.  Yeah.  Right.  Let's enlighten some of you moral uprights:  humans as a rule have to be conditioned, pushed, forced or drilled into killing - professional soldiers are professional killers - the only difference between Jack and Shepard is the bullsh!t they were fed to make them cross that line, and how they are treated by society after they do.  If you're going to invoke some idiotic absolute morality, EVERYONE in Shepard's crew in any of the games - including Shepard - are killers.  They are all murderers, legal sanctions - read: bullsh!t - is the only thing that separates them from criminals.

Jack was never a psychopath, that was shorthand marketing crap - conditioned sociopath, absolutely.  She was conditioned to kill, through the drugs and praise she became addicted to it - it's what Cerberus wanted.  She was supposed to be a disposable weapon.  Jack was a prototype.  She was never considered a human being by anyone who made her into what she was, and I doubt she even thought of herself as one.  She was never in control of single aspect of her life until she escaped - and in her state of mind getting the details wrong is completely forgivable.

Getting out into the larger universe?  Well, she wasn't exactly taught social skills, was she?  She did the best she could with the very little she actually knew.  It was also a perfect recipe for people to use her.  After she got older and realized what was really going on, well, what would you do?  Get religion?  She tried that.  Drugs?  Crime? Anything that gave you any kind of answer that made even the remotest sense?

Do you have any clue how long abuse lingers in and shapes a person's psyche?   Something as "simple" as just being told you're ugly every day?  That's violence, dude - and it's as bad as a daily punch to the face - especially coming from someone who says they care.

Yet - Jack rises above it.  She comes to understands it.  We don't know the full details of her "crimes", we only have her word for it - and most of them she did not do alone, so we have no idea just how much she actually did. Someone like Shepard - who doesn't redeem her, by the way - he just gives her the chance to see something different and the space to think and maybe redeem herself.  Jack gets it.  Jack knows what she's done and she knows from whence the impulses come.  She's not "awful" - maladjusted, a bit broken and a lot wounded, yeah.

To simply dismiss her is nothing more than some cretinious variation of "blaming the victim", it's the bully's and the priest's and the cop's and the frustrated ******'s excuse for their own weaknesses. If Jack is a true criminal, they all are, Shepard included.  Shepard's killed more people than Jack's ever managed in her wildest dreams - yet s/he's a hero.  The difference lies in only one thing: Shepard has permission.

You don't have to like her, but to label her as "awful" or "criminal" is not only missing the entire point, it's astonishingly ignorant and wrong.

 A little strongly noted........but I agree whole heartedly. 

[SlottsMachine]

Lizardviking wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Is Jack being completely honest with Shepard, or is part of her 'act' just bluster?

I actually lean towards the latter, considering there seems to be a fairly compassionate human being beneath the angry hard@ss persona. Also since Jack later evolves into a teacher, and the Alliance is willing to take her on as one, I doubt her crimes extended to the cold-blooded murder of civilians. Otherwise her character transformation wouldn't make a lick of sense.

Piracy? Sure. Executing mercs or other pirates? I can see that. But I don't think she's killed civilians.

You say that as if consistency has been a strong point in this franchise.

LOL.

[Dieb]

Wow, this thread took off fast. Thanks for the input!

While I appreciate how much time you took for your answer, JakeMacDon, I want you to know that I am in fact not as ignorant. Please don't label me this simply.

It is not her fault that she pinball-bounced from one hell into another. I can hardly imagine anyone turning out any differently in her shoes. However, that doesn't make what she did any less awful. I agree in one point, however - "awful human being" was rather inaccurate and a bad choice of words.



And to some other posters that compared her to other squad members: Except for Grunt (who is actually not that different from her) and Morinth, there is no one who kills civillians for fun. However wrong and misguided their respective reasons may be, no one ever tells us about killing civillians for the kick of it. Opponents, targets, armed people, yes.

Zaeed: He makes various remarks indicating that he's still not THAT cold blooded: He explicitely states that someone hired him for his "alive-salary" to get the Batarian. When he chased him, like he said "through countless systems" -meaning he ran away before- he wouldn't do anything but shoot his legs if he started another desperate attempt to escape. You don't become the best bounty hunter in the galaxy if you shoot people your contractors pay to capture alive, just because they annoy you. Then there's the remark during Jack's loyality mission, the rant in the transit bay in Nos Astra...

Miranda: You may call her a terrorist, but I'd never assume that she would kill unarmed people for fun. It would be quite the effort to dig up everything, but the scene with Wilson doesn't indicate much enjoyment, rather anger. Justified anger at that - he just had all her colleagues killed the moment before.

Thane: Contract killer - Whole different story. One minute of conversation shows that he doesn't enjoy taking lives.

....
[etc]

Modifié par Baelrahn, 17 mars 2013 - 06:42 .

[WheatleyHQ]

Jack isn't an awful human being. She's just a fierce woman who had a bad past, and she let that bad past define her.

[Errationatus]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Are we seriously debating about how ruthless characters? And that makes them horrible people? For Godsake...

 - SNIP - 

This maybe a bit of a surprise but...the entire bloody squad is made up of a bunch of murderers. They are all horrible people...

Except the ones we like.  We can always justify the ones we like.  To follow your instances?

 - Tali - grossly incompetant as a leader, gets team after team killed, yet she's "cute" and "sweet" and blahblahblah fetishsweatspaceelfyadayada.

 - Miranda - important figure in a massively unethical racist organization who's first thought is to control chip Shepard and has to be ordered not to, who blithely dismisses some of that organization's worst outrages as "necessary", and then absolves herself of any culpability because they were "some other cell" - but still her organization, has the temerity to call Jack a "mistake" (included in that handwashing), and thinks her genetic "perfection", rich daddy and cloned sister makes her pain worse than anyone else's or her bullsh!t somehow justifiable.  She conveniently forgets that Cerberus had Jack put in Purgatory, where she was put in cryo after she'd been gang-raped by guards and prisoners under a warden who then decides to sell her back to Cerberus afterward!  Not a blink from Miranda.  Not a question as to maybe, just maybe she's on the wrong team.  If anyone gets "redeemed" by Shep's magic wang, it's Lady Catsuit.  Honestly - we're supposed to take her seriously as either soldier or scientist in high heels and a bodysuit? Why?  Because she oversaw Shep's resurrection?

 - Samara has the justification of her Code and the sanction of her government.  She's a cop that doesn't have to fill out paperwork, Bioware's "homage" to Judge Dredd.

 - Mordin can be considered a mass murderer for his continuation of the Genophage.  yet, he also has government sanction.

None of these people are particularly laudable.

They're only heroes because we say they are, because they filled (in the game) an expedient need.  TIM would not have cared about the Collectors had they been harvesting asari or turians, nor would have Miranda and Shepard would have stayed dead.

I'm not justifying Jack's behaviour, because I don't have to - the people who made her that way are as responsible as she is whenever she pulls a trigger.  But Miranda and Tali and the rest are free to make choices to do otherwise, and Jack isn't, wasn't and is rarely given the chance.  

Considering how much utter crap she's endured, she's remarkably well-balanced.

[NeonFlux117]

WheatleyHQ wrote...

Jack isn't an awful human being. She's just a fierce woman who had a bad past, and she let that bad past define her.

She's a terrible person in ME2. And she's not that fierce of a woman. Samara is way more 'firece' than Jack or any other female character in the story- well maybe not Aria.

[spirosz]

Coachdongwiffle wrote...

KainD wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Jack is a sociopath. If she was a psychopath, there wouldn't be an option to stop her from killing Aresh - someone who less than a minute before tried to have Shep's squad killed.

Story does not support Jack as a sociopath. Sociopath's don't care for other people, Jack does. 

This was post Shepard. 

What?

Murdock, that crew that she was with that got wiped out... yes, very "post Shepard".

[spirosz]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

WheatleyHQ wrote...

Jack isn't an awful human being. She's just a fierce woman who had a bad past, and she let that bad past define her.

She's a terrible person in ME2. And she's not that fierce of a woman. Samara is way more 'firece' than Jack or any other female character in the story- well maybe not Aria.

Why is she a terrible person?  Cause she'll be honest with you and stab you in the face and not in the back? 

[Rip504]

You must of missed her character growth. Spanning post ME2 loyalty mission- ME3.

[WheatleyHQ]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

WheatleyHQ wrote...

Jack isn't an awful human being. She's just a fierce woman who had a bad past, and she let that bad past define her.

She's a terrible person in ME2. And she's not that fierce of a woman. Samara is way more 'firece' than Jack or any other female character in the story- well maybe not Aria.

Take into consideration that Jack is young, REALLY young, and Samara and Aria are both pretty old for our standards. They both have had time to become very fierce.

[AntiChri5]

The thing with Jack is that she was kidnapped against her will by a group who put a great deal of thought, effort and respurces into making her a monster. Jack in ME2 has been bounced from one terrible situation to another, never having a chance to get her breath and start to recover. Never getting a chance to think about who she wants to be.

By ME3, she has had that chance. She made her choice. Before ME2, she was simply reacting. After, she is acting. Making her own choices.

[WheatleyHQ]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The thing with Jack is that she was kidnapped against her will by a group who put a great deal of thought, effort and respurces into making her a monster. Jack in ME2 has been bounced from one terrible situation to another, never having a chance to get her breath and start to recover. Never getting a chance to think about who she wants to be.

By ME3, she has had that chance. She made her choice. Before ME2, she was simply reacting. After, she is acting. Making her own choices.