369 réponses à ce sujet

[M Hedonist]

Interestingly, Jack will refuse to kill Aresh if you tell her to do it. I don't even know whether he can end up dead unless you do it yourself via Renegade encounter.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Sauruz wrote...

Interestingly, Jack will refuse to kill Aresh if you tell her to do it. I don't even know whether he can end up dead unless you do it yourself via Renegade encounter.

From what I remember Jack will always want to do the opposite of what you're telling her. Paragon and Renegade setting persuade her otherwise in each case, she's all for killing him in the former and hestant about it in the later since she's not sure if killing him will help her deal with her issues. Not sure about the none peruasive options.

[Obadiah]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Interestingly, Jack will refuse to kill Aresh if you tell her to do it. I don't even know whether he can end up dead unless you do it yourself via Renegade encounter.

From what I remember Jack will always want to do the opposite of what you're telling her. Paragon and Renegade setting persuade her otherwise in each case, she's all for killing him in the former and hestant about it in the later since she's not sure if killing him will help her deal with her issues. Not sure about the none peruasive options.

Well that's interesting.

[M Hedonist]

Well, she refused to do so when I chose the lower right dialogue option (something along the lines of just "Kill him"). That playthrough I was pretty much pure Paragon, so that may have something to do with it.

[MACharlie1]

Jack can kill Aresh in two ways: one is through the renegade persuation (You're a killer, Jack!) or by threatening to do it yourself. ("If you don't then I will!" which leads to Shepard pulling a gun on Aresh)

[M Hedonist]

I see. You have to actively pressure her into doing it. Doesn't that tell a lot about her character?

[Texhnolyze101]

people like jack?....since when?

[spirosz]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

people like jack?....since when?

I hate her. 

[HolyAvenger]

RenShep honestly comes off as MUCH more psychopathic if s/he forced Jack to kill Aresh.

[Texhnolyze101]

spirosz wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

people like jack?....since when?

I hate her. 

No you don't i have seen your post lol.

[spirosz]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

spirosz wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

people like jack?....since when?

I hate her. 

No you don't i have seen your post lol.

You don't know me, I hate Jack. 

[GreyLycanTrope]

It's true. The Jack Guitar Tributes in his sig are hate ballads, that's how much he hates her.

[spirosz]

Greylycantrope wrote...

It's true. The Jack Guitar Tributes in his sig are hate ballads, that's how much he hates her.

[Texhnolyze101]

spirosz wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

spirosz wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

people like jack?....since when?

I hate her. 

No you don't i have seen your post lol.

You don't know me, I hate Jack. 

Refund guy > Jack

Modifié par 101ezylonhxeT, 17 mars 2013 - 07:44 .

[Sibu]

TheProtheans wrote...

Miranda, Garrus, Wrex, Javik, James, EDI, Jack, Mordin, Samara, Legion and Thane are all mass murders and deserve to die for their crimes.

Tali, Ashley, Liara are innocent for the most part.
Kaidan killed a Turian instructor and I am pretty sure Jacob is black.

Ha! Shouldn't have at the Jacob part... but i did

[o Ventus]

TheProtheans wrote...

Miranda, Garrus, Wrex, Javik, James, EDI, Jack, Mordin, Samara, Legion and Thane are all mass murders and deserve to die for their crimes.

Tali, Ashley, Liara are innocent for the most part.
Kaidan killed a Turian instructor and I am pretty sure Jacob is black.

No.

[Errationatus]

Baelrahn wrote...

Wow, this thread took off fast. Thanks for the input!

While I appreciate how much time you took for your answer, JakeMacDon, I want you to know that I am in fact not as ignorant. Please don't label me this simply.

 

I didn't call you ignorant.  I said to just dismiss her without considering just how she came to be what she was in ME2 is ignorant.  Nor is being called "ignorant" an insult.  It simply means that one is unaware of all relevant facts.

 
It is not her fault that she pinball-bounced from one hell into another. I can hardly imagine anyone turning out any differently in her shoes. However, that doesn't make what she did any less awful. I agree in one point, however - "awful human being" was rather inaccurate and a bad choice of words.

 

Agreed.  What one does can be awful, but what one is - unless it is a deliberate, conscious and adhered-to choice, is hardly ever something a person consciously chooses.  We're not puppets, but we don't always notice the myriad influences around us.  The difference between Jack and, say, Miranda, is that Jack was never given a choice.  Miranda has had almost complete control over the direction of her life since fleeing her "father".  At worst, Miranda is a far more "awful" person than Jack because she has an ideology - yet, for someone supposedly so intelligent - and so capable - she cannot see the endless atrocity her organization so ardently perpetrates.  "Perfection" does not stave off being completely wrong.

Jack didn't know better.  Miranda most certainly did.  If your carefully-trained dog bites you, that's the dog's fault.  If your abused dog bites you, that's your fault.

 
And to some other posters that compared her to other squad members: Except for Grunt (who is actually not that different from her) and Morinth, there is no one who kills civillians for fun. However wrong and misguided their respective reasons may be, no one ever tells us about killing civillians for the kick of it. Opponents, targets, armed people, yes.

 

I don't recall Jack ever saying killing civilians is fun.  Killing, yes.  The only time I recall she mentioned civilians was in a pirate raid where they took hostages.  I'm open to being corrected, however.

 
Zaeed: He makes various remarks indicating that he's still not THAT cold blooded: He explicitely states that someone hired him for his "alive-salary" to get the Batarian. When he chased him, like he said "through countless systems" -meaning he ran away before- he wouldn't do anything but shoot his legs if he started another desperate attempt to escape. You don't become the best bounty hunter in the galaxy if you shoot people your contractors pay to capture alive, just because they annoy you. Then there's the remark during Jack's loyality mission, the rant in the transit bay in Nos Astra...

 

Zaeed is also willing to let innocent people burn - and does - during his loyalty mission, if you choose that path. That's past ruthless.

 
Miranda: You may call her a terrorist, but I'd never assume that she would kill unarmed people for fun. It would be quite the effort to dig up everything, but the scene with Wilson doesn't indicate much enjoyment, rather anger. Justified anger at that - he just had all her colleagues killed the moment before.

 

How did she know that?  I was under the impression is was all her "instincts".  And - if you are a high-standing member of a terrorist organization, you are a terrorist. "Sexy" femme fatale bullsh!t aside, she is what she is.  She can justify it to herself any damn way she likes.

Jack was a victim that just said "enough is enough", and - ignorant of how she was supposed to act in a  world she was never educated for - she did what she could with the only skill-set she had.  That was why she was so unique among the ME2 characters.  She was feral, not "bad".

 
Thane: Contract killer - Whole different story. One minute of conversation shows that he doesn't enjoy taking lives.

 

And he has his sophist horsecrap "justification" for why he can still do it, sensitive soul that he is.

"Well, my body did it your honour, not my mind."

"That's unfortunate, because your body's going to prison for a very long time.  Tell your mind that ignorance is no excuse."

See?  We can always excuse the ones we like and slam the ones we don't.  Just human nature, really.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 17 mars 2013 - 08:10 .

[Errationatus]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

spirosz wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

spirosz wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

people like jack?....since when?

I hate her. 

No you don't i have seen your post lol.

You don't know me, I hate Jack. 

Refund guy > Jack

Spiroz stomps kitties, too.  For fun.  Just to hear them "squish".

[nos_astra]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Interestingly, Jack will refuse to kill Aresh if you tell her to do it. I don't even know whether he can end up dead unless you do it yourself via Renegade encounter.

From what I remember Jack will always want to do the opposite of what you're telling her. Paragon and Renegade setting persuade her otherwise in each case, she's all for killing him in the former and hestant about it in the later since she's not sure if killing him will help her deal with her issues. Not sure about the none peruasive options.

If that's true it makes her a pretty undefined character.

I'm not sure it helps accept the bullsh!t character arc of healing through revenge and more violence at the side of Special McAwesomesauce.

[Wifflebottom]

The big difference between Jack and the rest of the squad is that she lacks self control and discipline and seemingly kills completely indiscriminately.

Out of the ME2 members of the crew that could be considered murderers:
My Shepard is 100% renegade and kills whenever he gets the chance as long as he can justify it to his military code especially if it involves batarians.

Miranda is a professional that believed in what Cerberus stood for so she killed when it was best for Cerberus

Jacob was a soldier so he just followed orders from higher up

Samara kills according to the Justicar code and when she pledges allegiance to Shepard she follows his orders and kills when told.

Thane is a professional assassin and killed people that he was commissioned to kill, as he put it: he was the gun used to commit the murder not the person who wanted the victim to die.

Grunt is a baby so he hasn't really murdered anyone yet

Mordin justified his role in the genophage as saving the lives of the entire galaxy over having to deal with incredibly high Krogan populations

Garrus was being batman so that's all that needs to be said

What they all have over Jack is a reason for why they did what they did. Jack just killed people (many innocents) because she enjoyed it and had no apparent justifications other than: I had a bad childhood.

Modifié par Wifflebottom, 17 mars 2013 - 08:19 .

[M Hedonist]

klarabella wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Interestingly, Jack will refuse to kill Aresh if you tell her to do it. I don't even know whether he can end up dead unless you do it yourself via Renegade encounter.

From what I remember Jack will always want to do the opposite of what you're telling her. Paragon and Renegade setting persuade her otherwise in each case, she's all for killing him in the former and hestant about it in the later since she's not sure if killing him will help her deal with her issues. Not sure about the none peruasive options.

If that's true it makes her a pretty undefined character.

I'm not sure it helps accept the bullsh!t character arc of healing through revenge and more violence at the side of Special McAwesomesauce.

I guess she's a rebel and doesn't like to be told what to do.
Bottom line, she wouldn't go through with killing him unless Shepard pressures her to do it.

[New Display Name]

If you mod ME2, you can avoid recruiting Jack. In ME3, you can set Jack to dead and then remove her name on the memorial wall. It's like she never existed.

[L2 Sentinel]

Jack is everything that made ME2 the least enjoyable game in the trilogy for me personified. When I started out, I just wanted my old crew back. I didn't want to work with Cerberus. But the game didn't give me a choice. I was separated from the characters I liked, and forced to recruit the most unsavory people in the galaxy.

Off the bat I hated Miranda, especially when she takes no remorse in saying she wanted to implant a chip in Shepard's brain. I was more willing to let Jacob win me over, because he seemed pretty clueless about what Cerberus was really like. He still had work to do to gain my trust, but I didn't make it impossible. Then I recruited Kasumi and Zaeed, a notorious criminal and a ruthless bounty hunter, and met Aria. Omega, being the festering pit that it is, only exasperated the feeling that my Shepard was in hell. I got Mordin first, and even he started off on the wrong foot. It wasn't until I met up with Garrus that I felt like I had someone on the team that I could actually trust. He became a darker character, but it fit the tone of the game. I got Grunt next, another shady character.

The I finally got around to the convict. I put it off for as long as the game would allow because the dossier didn't paint her as someone I would want on my ship. And sure enough, she was a piece of work that seemed more like a liability than an asset. I knew Cerberus liked to take crazy risks (that backfire more often than not), but bringing Jack along just seemed stupid, even for them. I hated Jack. I went down to talk to her for the sole purpose of the mission. I needed to be sure she was someone I could put on the field. The only thing we could agree on was that we both hated Cerberus.

I even did Jack's loyalty mission last, just because it was the most petty. This was the turning point for me and my Shepard. It's when we saw Jack for what she truly is; a scared little girl who never let anyone get close enough to hurt her. She really is a victim in all of this. Yes, she has commited horrible atrocities, but anyone who has been through what she has wouldn't have made it out with their sanity in check. We could also see for the first time the first signs of remorse as she discovered what the other kids went through. She was human afterall. We didn't necessarily forgive her for everything that's she has done, but we were willing to help her atone. She never really had a first chance at a real life, so the least I could do was offer her a second one.

I don't think she was ever a psychopath, I think she was clearly misguided and deluded herself into thinking this is how the universe works. I like to believe that Shepard was the first real friend Jack had. He helped her realize that she cannot go on the way she was, and gave her the tools to fix her life. Confronting her past, having Shepard to help her through it with no ulterior motive, gave her a reason to trust people. Being on a team with people who selflessly risked almost certain death for the good of the galaxy, who depended on her as much as she depended on them was an eye opening experience for her. It made her want to change.

Grissom Academy seemed like a great direction to take Jack to me. She finally had something to care about. She wasn't just surviving anymore, she was living. I do agree that it's not perfect. The plot forced the writers to rush the payoff of Jack's character arc, and she probably needed a new identity. But it was a great moment for me to see the real Jack for the first time; the woman she was always meant to be.

P.S. I don't hate Miranda anymore, either. I don't hate anyone anymore.

Modifié par Rauhel, 17 mars 2013 - 08:50 .

[spirosz]

I like you Rauhel. That's the mindset I like. Personally, I think hate is a strong word and I don't hate any character tbh, but I do dislike certain actions that were expressed for certain characters.