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Jack is an awful human being.


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#201
L2 Sentinel

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Shaleist wrote...

Personally I don't get the sense that Jack had many run ins with a whole lot of 'innocent' people in her life. And I take it the ones that were, probably didn't get murdered. Maybe kidnapped *lol* but whatever. That said... who pray-tell on the Normandy isn't a killer? I'll be waiting for your reply.

Traynor, Chakwas, Adams, Donnelly, Daniels... :innocent:

Everyone in the squad kills. This is a war. Shepard has little use for combatants that don't fight to win. The point isn't that they kill, it's why they kill.

#202
sr2josh

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o Ventus wrote...

Joker is a combat pilot. He has a body count.


Who did he kill?  Those innocent Collector drones?

#203
w0lfam0da1s

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Konfined wrote...

w0lfam0da1s wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

Jacks inhumane talk is not in lockstep with her demonstrated humanity. My Shepard does not believe everything Jack says and what she does believe she can understand and empathize, you can only kick a dog so many times before they turn feral. My Sheps are also perceptive enough to see the potential Jack has and she grooms the socially scarred biotic to become a hero. Jack to me is one of the most enjoyable and complex xharacters in the entire series while I agree going from psychopath to teacher in 6 months is unrealistic it is nowhere near as out of lore or beyond disbelief as those horrible endings. If you can believe synthesis then you can suspend your disbelief enough to recognize what a gem you have in Jack. She is a rich and wonderful character I was happy to have played with in these games.


I like that.

I have this that I tell my children.

There are wolves in the world. Sometimes the wolves are the good guys. As hard as that is to believe.

When they ask about it I tell them that as much as they look at me as a hero. I was also a killer. Someone who killed in the name of duty. In the eyes of the ones I was to protect I was a hero. In the eyes of the ones I killed I was a monster.

Then they look at my uniform and see the medals and get a confuse look on their face.
They ask about the medals and if I'm proud of them.
All I can say is no not really because what I did to get them. Isn't something to be proud of. Not like you think.
They are older now so they understand.
The medals are a reminder of both the good and bad I did in this world. I was praised for taking a life that as a soldier we are told and trained to do.
If I wasn't a soldier then in the eyes of the law I would be called a murderer.
It's somethinng I know I strugle with.

But yeah Jack is more real in many ways then what we see.

Still in the process of reading the thread, but I had to take a pause to give mad props to you for the Leverage reference.  And if you got it from somewhere else, well, I don't care.  Leverage still rules.


Thanks but I don't watch the show. Just so you know my father said that same proverb to me when I was just a kid. He got it from his father. I believe it may be an old Irish proverb or something. But once again thanks.

#204
Konfined

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w0lfam0da1s wrote...


Thanks but I don't watch the show. Just so you know my father said that same proverb to me when I was just a kid. He got it from his father. I believe it may be an old Irish proverb or something. But once again thanks.

Well, it is indeed a very apt proverb.  I still love Leverage though.

#205
o Ventus

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Makai81 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Joker is a combat pilot. He has a body count.


Who did he kill?  Those innocent Collector drones?


I don't see what innocence has to do with it.

There's his service record before he met Shepard, as well as the battle of the Citadel, the Suicide Mission, and the battle of Earth.

#206
sr2josh

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o Ventus wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Joker is a combat pilot. He has a body count.


Who did he kill?  Those innocent Collector drones?


I don't see what innocence has to do with it.

There's his service record before he met Shepard, as well as the battle of the Citadel, the Suicide Mission, and the battle of Earth.


Where in his service record does it say that he killed anyone himself?  He's not a fighter pilot.  You're confusing killing something like a Collector that is just a drone controlled by Harbinger with regular people like the one's Jack or others on the Normandy killed.

#207
L2 Sentinel

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o Ventus wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Joker is a combat pilot. He has a body count.


Who did he kill?  Those innocent Collector drones?


I don't see what innocence has to do with it.

There's his service record before he met Shepard, as well as the battle of the Citadel, the Suicide Mission, and the battle of Earth.

And he totally got inside an atlas and wiped the floor with Cerberus during the coup! Didn't you hear his story? ;)

#208
andy6915

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Joker killed Sovereign... Does that count as a kill?

#209
o Ventus

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Makai81 wrote...

Where in his service record does it say that he killed anyone himself?  He's not a fighter pilot.  You're confusing killing something like a Collector that is just a drone controlled by Harbinger with regular people like the one's Jack or others on the Normandy killed.


A kill is a kill is a kill.

Saying "no that doesn't count, it's just a Collector/Husk/Geth" is disingenuous.

Shepard him/herself can even admit that Joker has racked up a body count.

#210
cdzander

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klarabella wrote...

<major snippage>

- Grunt is a krogan who was bred for killing and is enabled to do just that.



Grunt is just a soldier. Who does Grunt kill?  Before you let him out of the tank...he hasn't killed anyone. In all of ME2, he only kills who Shepard commands him to.  Collectors, Mercs, etc.  And they are all shooting back at him.

After that, it appears he returns to Tuchanka. Probably offs a few Krogan here and there, they are a violent species. Then he gets involved in the Reaper war. 

I'd say that among the myriad squadmates, his body count is on the lower side.

#211
w0lfam0da1s

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Like I've said once before. We are all killers. Like it or not. Some use others to kill for them while some do it themselves. He** we also kill ourselves slowly by what we take into our body. Be it drug or drink. And no it don't have to be illegal drugs or drinks. Normal stuff like Advil or beer harms our body's cells and other organs.
Also think about the animals and plants. We kill animals for food. Plants for food or shelter. Not only that but we use them for other items as well.
If you ever killed a bug like a spider or even a fly you are a killer.
I know it may not sound the same or even look the same but it is when you break it down to the basic form of being a killer.
That is just life. Kill or be killed. In a world that is like what Jack was forced to live that is all she knew. All anyone would know.
Ask yourself this.....
If it was you and you was put into a pit with lions what would you do?

Take that for what you will.
Have A Good Day
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Modifié par w0lfam0da1s, 17 mars 2013 - 11:24 .


#212
sr2josh

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o Ventus wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

Where in his service record does it say that he killed anyone himself?  He's not a fighter pilot.  You're confusing killing something like a Collector that is just a drone controlled by Harbinger with regular people like the one's Jack or others on the Normandy killed.


A kill is a kill is a kill.

Saying "no that doesn't count, it's just a Collector/Husk/Geth" is disingenuous.

Shepard him/herself can even admit that Joker has racked up a body count.


In that case almost anything can be considered a "kill".  However, the point of this thread was about killing people and not non-sentinent drones controlled by Harbinger or Occuli.  Plus, Sovereign was mostly due to Shepard's hands.  The Normandy isn't shown destroying any Geth ships during the Battle of the Citadel which was fought by the Alliance Fifth Fleet.  When did Shepard explicitly state that Joker had a body count?

#213
GoldenPersona

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I think people mistook my post. I wasn't trying to label murder with good or bad, or trying to question the morals of the ME2. It's just a simple fact that all of them have committed murder. Whatever reason they had, it was still murder.

If a crazed gunman is going after you you have every right to kill that person who threatens your own life. It can be justified, but it doesn't take away the fact that you killed someone. The same goes for 90% of your squad mates. Jack is hardly the worst offender. I'd say Thane would be the worst offender. He could have been tasked with the killing of truly innocent people, just people who were against the people he was hired by. He even has a means to justify these killings which is truly frightening.

Perhaps mass murderer was the wrong choice of words, so more like trained, skilled, and very dangerous killers. A few of them are even mass killers. It's only when you try to categorize it as good or bad, which doesn't actually exist, where it gets a little shaky. I'd still stay all of your crew members are good people.

Garrus stops crime, Wrex keeps his people from extinction. Thane cares deeply for his family and friends etc. Doesn't mean they aren't killers.

And I'm still haunted when I do Jacob's loyalty mission. These hunters aren't guilty of anything more than what Jacob's dad did and yet you have to mindlessly slaughter your way through them to reach his dad. At least in ME1 you don't have to kill the colonists. In Jacob's loyalty mission you have to kill to advance.

#214
Andres Hendrix

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In point of difference to those pointy heads out there, who learned pseudo-science from TV shows like Criminal Minds, and or a video game character with a video game BA, Kelly Chambers. Jack shows no signs of being a sociopath, at least not in accordance to the clinical typology I once studied in psychology and sociology. Jack shows "some" signs of Anti-Social behavior, like those found in Episodic Dyscontrol Syndrome (EDS, which is usually attributed to a mixture of biological imbalances, and early childhood trauma etc). However, Jack, like say Tomas Harris' Hannibal Lector, does not fit the criteria of what a sociopath is in reality (think of Lector as the Hollywood version, that people for whatever odd reason get all hot and heavy for). I would argue that Jack fits the psychological fiction found in our culture, up to the point where the fiction is a misapprehension of science.

Psychopaths are a difficult phenomenon to study (not only because of what they do, and how such crimes are very dispiriting for the researcher ), because many of the checklists are for "ideal types". An ideal type is not implying what is 'morally ideal', it implies the traits that ideally fit into a theoretical framework; thus, some of the things on the checklists do not necessarily translate into a sociopath.

* For a thought experiment I will treat Jack as a real person, and discuss some aspects of her past and personality that people seem to be missing.

Some points from Jack's early childhood would suggest that she was very much loved by her mother, Jack was taken (according to the Broker dossier) at the age of 4 from her mother. At the age of four Jack would have been in the early stages of moral development (read Lawrence Kohlberg's work on moral developmental) it may also be true that Jack as a baby, was breastfed. This might seem menial, but the Oxytocin in a mothers breast-milk helps in 'pair bonding', and natural conditioning. Even though she had a horrid time with Cerberus, one cannot say that she never experienced love and closeness early in her life. Logically, if it is true that Jack had experienced a parental love early in her life, one cannot factor that out of her mentality.

She does express some kind of conditioned exhilaration from killing; though it must be stated that we all have an amygdala. It does not make it 'right', but we are trying to determine what makes someone a sociopath. Does such exhilaration make someone a sociopath, what are the psychological differences between Shepard getting a rush from killing in battle, and what Jack described ? One difference is that sociopaths maintains the creepy notion of making people suffer, much of the killing Jack talks about is not drawn out, but relates to her 'survivalist notions' and her idea of perpetual self-defense.

Sociopaths do not tacitly feel empathy, (they may understand the concept which is different) Jack shows empathy if you get to know her in ME2. Her entire persona seems to be built around some sort of 'survival notion', for Jack this involves, obfuscating many human emotions and her general feelings, her fear, sadness, and needs. She downplays her remorse and empathy then tries to showcase the absence of remorse and empathy. Perhaps this implies that, due to her time spent with criminals and assorted riff-Raff, she felt like she had to hide those things to 'survive among them', she then 'egocentrically' attributes her narrow view to the galaxy. She later feels comfortable enough to express those repressed feelings with Shepard, and by ME3 she is less repressive on herself, and has also accepted more 'societal-norms'.
*End of thought experiment*

It must also be stated, that narratively (in ME2) we witnessed Jack change overtime with Shepard, and we do not see Jack enough in ME3 (what is the total amount of time, 25 minutes at the most?) to say that she is 'totally fixed', because the games does not focus on her. Therefore, I think people are being fatuous when they say "I do not like how 'she is fixed' in ME3", how can people really know such a thing?

In summary, I would say that fiction does not present true sociopaths, it more or less represents the cartoon villain type stigmas,which some people seem to be infatuated with. Jack does not show a clear cut case of being a 'sociopath', she seemed to be more of a social isolate (bent on 'survival') and was hiding certain feelings and motives, until she felt like she could express herself to Shepard. I am not trying to say that sociopaths are innocent (don't get me wrong) but there is a misapprehension caused by the things people absorb from pop-culture, and what they do not take in from science. I think Jack was portrayed as a person who had a terrible time in her early life (i.e. Cerberus; she also became a criminal) who eventually has a paradigm shift away from crime and what have you, and into a new form of life.

* This ended up being a lot longer than I had anticipated.

#215
RogueBot

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GoldenPersona wrote...

*snip*


Are you just playing Devil's Advocate or what? Because you seem to use "murderer" and "killer" interchangeably.

If that's not your intent, then you've composed your thoughts rather poorly.

Edit: Upon reading your last post, I see you simply mean that characters in a third-person shooter kill people (thanks, Captain Obvious), and that you don't believe in good or evil (thanks, first-year philosophy student).

Modifié par RogueBot, 17 mars 2013 - 11:49 .


#216
o Ventus

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Makai81 wrote...

In that case almost anything can be considered a "kill".  However, the point of this thread was about killing people and not non-sentinent drones controlled by Harbinger or Occuli.  Plus, Sovereign was mostly due to Shepard's hands.  The Normandy isn't shown destroying any Geth ships during the Battle of the Citadel which was fought by the Alliance Fifth Fleet.  When did Shepard explicitly state that Joker had a body count?


The point isn't that Joker has killed innocent people, it's that Joker, as a combat pilot, has killed people.

During the Citadel party, Wrex can suggest that Joker get formal firearm training, to which Joker declines. Shepard can support either Joker or Wrex. Supporting Joker leads to Shepard statin that Joker has racked up a body count.

#217
Xilizhra

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Some points from Jack's early childhood would suggest that she was very much loved by her mother, Jack was taken (according to the Broker dossier) at the age of 4 from her mother. At the age of four Jack would have been in the early stages of moral development (read Lawrence Kohlberg's work on moral developmental) it may also be true that Jack as a baby, was breastfed. This might seem menial, but the Oxytocin in a mothers breast-milk helps in 'pair bonding', and natural conditioning. Even though she had a horrid time with Cerberus, one cannot say that she never experienced love and closeness early in her life. Logically, if it is true that Jack had experienced a parental love early in her life, one cannot factor that out of her mentality.

Age four? Really? I thought it was way earlier than that... but if true, suddenly Jack's arc makes far, far more sense. Thanks for bringing that up.

#218
w0lfam0da1s

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o Ventus wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

In that case almost anything can be considered a "kill".  However, the point of this thread was about killing people and not non-sentinent drones controlled by Harbinger or Occuli.  Plus, Sovereign was mostly due to Shepard's hands.  The Normandy isn't shown destroying any Geth ships during the Battle of the Citadel which was fought by the Alliance Fifth Fleet.  When did Shepard explicitly state that Joker had a body count?


The point isn't that Joker has killed innocent people, it's that Joker, as a combat pilot, has killed people.

During the Citadel party, Wrex can suggest that Joker get formal firearm training, to which Joker declines. Shepard can support either Joker or Wrex. Supporting Joker leads to Shepard statin that Joker has racked up a body count.


that is a good point. true in many ways. like any real fighter pilot who shoots down a plane or fires a missel at a target like a tank. they are still killing. and what if the target has cilvilians inside but you as a fighter pilot don't know that. all you know is your locked on to the target then you fire and you make your mark target taken out. things like that do happen in real life

take that for what you will.
have a good day.
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#219
o Ventus

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w0lfam0da1s wrote...

that is a good point. true in many ways. like any real fighter pilot who shoots down a plane or fires a missel at a target like a tank. they are still killing. and what if the target has cilvilians inside but you as a fighter pilot don't know that. all you know is your locked on to the target then you fire and you make your mark target taken out. things like that do happen in real life

take that for what you will.
have a good day.
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And as a side note, when the Normandy destroys the Collector ship, there may have been civilians aboard who were kidnapped by the Collectors.

#220
w0lfam0da1s

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o Ventus wrote...

w0lfam0da1s wrote...

that is a good point. true in many ways. like any real fighter pilot who shoots down a plane or fires a missel at a target like a tank. they are still killing. and what if the target has cilvilians inside but you as a fighter pilot don't know that. all you know is your locked on to the target then you fire and you make your mark target taken out. things like that do happen in real life

take that for what you will.
have a good day.
Image IPB


And as a side note, when the Normandy destroys the Collector ship, there may have been civilians aboard who were kidnapped by the Collectors.


true.

but of course i now have a difficult time seeing things like this from a civilians prospective. that's just the soldier in me.

take that for what you will
have a good day
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#221
shodiswe

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klarabella wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GoldenPersona wrote...
Nearly everyone you grow to love in these game is a mass murderer lol.

Or just plain murderer for hire. Remember our first meeting with Wrex, in which he threatens cops who have the nerve to warn him off from death threats he fully intends to carry out?

The weakest part of his character arc. The problem is not that they are killers (well, not always), the problem is that you have to recruit these guys and their background is just handwaved.

It's probably quicker to list the characters who don't have a history of unlawful killing prior to meeting Shepard:
- Liara
- Tali

That's it.

- James
- Ashley
I assume James and Ash don't count as unlawful considering their profession.

- Kaidan
Kaidan's first kill Vyrnnus is at least not handwaved and had consequences.

- EDI
- Legion
Synthetics are tricky.

- Kasumi, not a lot is known of her history. She's a thief. She knows how to kill.

- Mordin is known for shooting people. 

- Miranda kills Wilson in front of you. I doubt he was the first one.

- Jacob used to be a corsair and then Cerberus.

- Garrus hates rules that prevent him from shooting someone when he wants to.

- Wrex was a mercenary and you witness spouting death threats at C-Sec officers.

- Samara belongs to a weird order of vigilantes.

- Grunt is a krogan who was bred for killing and is enabled to do just that.

- Jack is a convicted murderer.

- Thane is an assassin.

- Zaeed is a mercenary.

That's pretty bad. :huh:




I like that list! So im goign to add to it  Image IPB 

Wrex, he told us he was a pirate or privateer working for Saren but quit when he realized others of the crew were dissapearing and thought it was smartest to leave without his pay. (before he dissapeared)
So a pirate scum that killed merchants and civilian transport ship crew members.

EDI, could be clean except for the Luna base incident, we're told soem marines got killed there, though people on BSN suspect Cerberus involvement due to unexplained tampering and it being their MO. Also the fact that Cerberus was so quick to move in and secure EDI after Shepard shut it down.

Legion, We know nothing about legion. What we know looks clean but we dont' know how old Legion is or if it or parts of it were part of the mourning war. (which by itself is a mess of selfdefence and two people trying ot commit genocide on eachother) really messy.

And Jack, the main character when ti commes to issues accordign to this thread... Yeah, lots of issues.

Like you said, Liara and Tali are probably the least likely to have killed defenceless civilians. They are both relatively young for their resective species. Young people got less lugage and normaly less skeletons in their wardrobes..

But it's also a fairly violent universe with slavers pirates and a lot of people doing questionable things and getting into trouble.

#222
Andres Hendrix

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Xilizhra wrote...

Some points from Jack's early childhood would suggest that she was very much loved by her mother, Jack was taken (according to the Broker dossier) at the age of 4 from her mother. At the age of four Jack would have been in the early stages of moral development (read Lawrence Kohlberg's work on moral developmental) it may also be true that Jack as a baby, was breastfed. This might seem menial, but the Oxytocin in a mothers breast-milk helps in 'pair bonding', and natural conditioning. Even though she had a horrid time with Cerberus, one cannot say that she never experienced love and closeness early in her life. Logically, if it is true that Jack had experienced a parental love early in her life, one cannot factor that out of her mentality.

Age four? Really? I thought it was way earlier than that... but if true, suddenly Jack's arc makes far, far more sense. Thanks for bringing that up.


Yes age four; Jack was born in 2161, she was taken by cerberus in 2165.

#223
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Baelrahn wrote...

Now that I have your hatred and attention, let me explain.

After playing some ME2 again to take a nice, relaxing walk on Illium, I paid a lot more attention to Jack than in previous sessions, due to her presentation in Citadel, where she really grew on me all of  a sudden.

And there it struck me, something I never gave much thought about before:
If she really did everything she claims to have done in her past, it really makes her a downright terrible human being. And I don't mean as in having a "wild side", I mean she's a despicable murderer.  She tells you stories of executing civillians just for fun, and regretting she didn't murder the entire crew during one raid. When called on it, she just gives you a deluded, symphathy craving "it made me who I am today".

It's probably really just me, but I hate how you don't have a choice other than either accepting her "Aaaalright, look I'm sorry. Won't happen again. But you're a sissy for suggesting that." or not even try to talk her out of it during and especially after her loyality mission.

From an RP point of view:
I know that many characters kill people in this game, but with her specific approach to the matter, she'd be lucky if my Shepard hadn't just left her on Purgatory. I play my canon Shepard as a Ruthless/Colonist. He's seen death, he's responsible for hundreds of bodies on both sides during the assault on Torfan. He's a suicidal, depressed wreck of a man, a complete ass to everybody, but ultimately always doing the "right thing"  when things get real. While others might see him as a classic anti-hero, he's really just trying to stay sane; a desperate attempt to maybe someday clear his own conscience. Or die in the process, either choice being equally favourable.

That being said, he hates people with a comparable past, but who he thinks aren't at the same point where he is, but damn well should be. Jack is pretty much everything he's learned to hate about himself. Justifying all your selfish oulets for the hatred with some dubious right for revenge, just like he did.


Thoughts, opinions?


Shepard was born on Mindoir, and lost half her squad on Torfan... Half her squad if you listen to Udina in the beginning of ME. Squad = 13. She lost about 5-6 of her own. Not hundreds. The Batarians were surrendered. She executed them, and if the Batarians started executing prisoners during the assault all the more reason for it. There may have been about 25 Batarians guarding the prison colony. After she executed them she liberated the colony. She was a hero to those prisoners who survived. She got the job done.

As Smudboy pointed out, Shepard is a schizoid brick with no personality. Shepard is that way for a reason. You make the personality of the character. I wrote a short early life bio for my Colonist/Ruthless Shepard. There are reasons she's the way she is. She is not a monster. She learned different lessons than the privileged Spacer/War Hero Shepard. My Shepard doesn't hate herself as much as she hates what she's seen. She's not suicidal by any stretch. She takes short cuts. She's not depressing. She drinks too much and she smokes.

Jack had a very traumatic childhood. She was raised by Cerberus as a lab rat. There was no way she was going to turn out well. All that did make her who she is today. Sorry, but it's true. And Jack is full of s***. She's a braggart. She didn't do half the stuff she said she did. Oh, that stuff at a distance I'll believe, but the up close and personal stuff? She doesn't have what it takes to be as cold blooded as she says she is. With Aresh at the conclusion of her loyalty mission, did you see the hesitation, the fear, "Go ahead, Jack. Kill him. You're a killer, Jack. That's what killers do." She is shaking while she does it. In the previous room she was bragging about how she was going to kill him and all that, remember? Oh, you didn't take that line of conversation, did you?

Jack is afraid of her own shadow, and disguises it with anger. She needs about 5 years with a therapist.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 18 mars 2013 - 12:56 .


#224
Firmijn

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still love Jack, always will.

Favorite game character of all times for me.

EDIT: sH0tgUn jUliA, good post!

Modifié par Firmijn, 18 mars 2013 - 12:59 .


#225
Goneaviking

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Shotgun Julia nails it.

Jack talks big, and carries through on enough that people buy into her stories but for all the buildup about Jack being the meanest sack of hate in the galaxy, and the prisoner who'd rather stay locked up than be on the same ship as Jack?

Her behaviour once she climbs on board Normandy doesn't match the hype.