56 réponses à ce sujet

[Gildenlock]

Even with the extended cut providing lots of additional information in the form of slides, I still find myself mulling over the implications for free will on organics in the synthesis ending. EDI talks about limitless possibilities, the overall behavior of organics seems largely unchanged from what it what it would have been in the Destroy ending, i.e. organic emotional capacity is still intact enough that they feel the need to "mourn", only now and entity like EDI is more included in the act.

Forgetting, if you can, about it being "space magic", or done against organics will, how much free will to you envision organics possesing in the synthesis ending?  

(post extended cut)

[ruggly]

I'm pretty sure that everyone maintains their free will. If not, well..

Main differences now are that people can now plug themselves into technology through a USB/Firewire port, and synthetics have full understanding of what were once full organics.

Modifié par ruggly, 17 mars 2013 - 03:04 .

[Reorte]

It doesn't show anything to suggest that it changes free will. There's a lot about it that I dislike but the free will argument is a strawman.

[Solaxe]

They gain empathy, but I doubt they lose free will

[DeinonSlayer]

"With so many social and medical advances we could bring, why would the Independents fight so hard against us?"
"We meddle."
"River?"
"People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do; what to think. We're in their homes and in their heads, and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome."
"River... we're not telling people what to think. We're just showing them how." *STAB*

[Zazzerka]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

"With so many social and medical advances we could bring, why would the Independents fight so hard against us?"
"We meddle."
"River?"
"People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do; what to think. We're in their homes and in their heads, and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome."
"River... we're not telling people what to think. We're just showing them how." *STAB*

I watched that for the first time today.. Funny, the day I decide to watch Serenity is the day I see it referenced on the BSN twice. Weird.

Good movie, though.

Modifié par GT Zazzerka, 17 mars 2013 - 03:21 .

[SpamBot2000]

There are no organics after the synthesis ending, just hybrids. Grass will go crunch under your robo-feet.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 17 mars 2013 - 03:24 .

[Nykara]

I am actually more concerned about the fact that the Catalyst said it couldn't be forced. Meaning the organics may not be ready for it yet. If they aren't ready for it then it could fail and they would end up right back where they started.

[Rhayak]

Synthesis does not mean brainwashing.

Serenity is a good movie, but what the Alliance does there is LITERAL meddling and brainwashing. They invade and impose their rule. Not to mention going medieval on River's mind.

Synthesis simply adds something that Organics and Synthetics can truly have in common, but how they react to it is up to them. Ok it IS forced, by Shepard. But after all what are you going to do? Bite off your skin?

I can agree that "universal peace and prosperity" as a consequence is sort of childish and shallow writing, but that's what happens in ME3, and i'm super happy with that.

Modifié par Rhayak, 17 mars 2013 - 03:30 .

[Wayning_Star]

Nat'l Lampoon's Deteriorata

[geceka]

If anything, Synthesis only caters to the free will by expanding possibilities, quite the opposite of narrowing it. When EDI speaks of the possibility to overcome even mortality itself, that's what she's referring to, e.g. that by broadening the possibilities of the individual and enabling them to circumvent (or deprecate) even the most basic constraints of organic life as it has once been known, the ways in which the individual can blossom become limitless.

However, Synthesis is also not the universal cure for everything, it is just another stepping stone, like any technological advance before it. That the general sentiment after the war and while discovering the new possibilities afforded for by Synthesis is generally positive is not surprising, but I did not get any implications of "everlasting peace" or something like that from the EC slides, only that the aftermath of the Reaper conflict is – in this case – a positive one.

[Mims]

Synthesis does not turn people into mindless robo slaves. But it does alter them.

Hence, why I wouldn't touch that ending even if it did make some semblance of sense. I'd rather doom the entire galaxy than sacrifice even a portion of free will.

[Wayning_Star]

Mims wrote...

Synthesis does not turn people into mindless robo slaves. But it does alter them.

Hence, why I wouldn't touch that ending even if it did make some semblance of sense. I'd rather doom the entire galaxy than sacrifice even a portion of free will.

that's a conundrum, not an absolute consideration.. why do you hate free will?

[Franky Figgs]

I already made a thread about this but to put it short I believe that synthesis will strip a person of free will.
The whole series tries to warn of us of synthesis and then flips the question at the very end. It isn't until the Leviathan story we can piece together why.
The Leviathan cognitive process is fundamentally different than ours. The Leviathan AI will be connected to synthesized thralls because controlling thralls was their problem and synthesis is the solution.

[Riot86]

The fact that the organics races now seem to have no problem whatsoever with the Reapers anymore might be evidence that they don't have a will on their own anymore.

Seriously, people whose whole family and friends have been brutally murdered by Reapers, now getting along with them is plain stupid. I don't want to encourage revenge at all or say that it is justified. But everybody being happy and accepting the Reapers as buddies afterwards is totally unrealistic. If people would have still free will, many would riot against the Reapers after the war, prefering to get killed to living alongside those who were responsibly for the death of people they knew and loved. Also Javik not throwning himself out the nearest airlock after Synthesis further strengthen this assumption. If he had free will, I don't see him continuing this new life as something he would clearly see as an abomination.

The other logical explanation for organincs acting like that would be that their ways of thinking would change significantly after Synthesis. Meaning they would not be the same person anymore, ergo being "brain-washed". They basically would still have free will, but the basis of it would have been changed. Which of course isn't any better, maybe even worse

Modifié par Riot86, 17 mars 2013 - 03:51 .

[Sideria]

Riot86 wrote...

The other logical explanation for organincs acting like that would be that their ways of thinking would change significantly after Synthesis.

Having unlimited access to knowledge and a hyper empathy change obviously the way of thinking... but for the better
Hate and anger are most of the time caused by incomprehension of others. And in Synthesis everybody understands each other.

Modifié par Sideria, 17 mars 2013 - 04:02 .

[Ieldra]

geceka wrote...
If anything, Synthesis only caters to the free will by expanding possibilities, quite the opposite of narrowing it. When EDI speaks of the possibility to overcome even mortality itself, that's what she's referring to, e.g. that by broadening the possibilities of the individual and enabling them to circumvent (or deprecate) even the most basic constraints of organic life as it has once been known, the ways in which the individual can blossom become limitless.

However, Synthesis is also not the universal cure for everything, it is just another stepping stone, like any technological advance before it. That the general sentiment after the war and while discovering the new possibilities afforded for by Synthesis is generally positive is not surprising, but I did not get any implications of "everlasting peace" or something like that from the EC slides, only that the aftermath of the Reaper conflict is – in this case – a positive one.

This is how I see it. Synthesis itself gives individuals no choice about accepting it, but the effect is empowering. Ironic, really, isn't it?

[Auintus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

geceka wrote...
If anything, Synthesis only caters to the free will by expanding possibilities, quite the opposite of narrowing it. When EDI speaks of the possibility to overcome even mortality itself, that's what she's referring to, e.g. that by broadening the possibilities of the individual and enabling them to circumvent (or deprecate) even the most basic constraints of organic life as it has once been known, the ways in which the individual can blossom become limitless.

However, Synthesis is also not the universal cure for everything, it is just another stepping stone, like any technological advance before it. That the general sentiment after the war and while discovering the new possibilities afforded for by Synthesis is generally positive is not surprising, but I did not get any implications of "everlasting peace" or something like that from the EC slides, only that the aftermath of the Reaper conflict is – in this case – a positive one.

This is how I see it. Synthesis itself gives individuals no choice about accepting it, but the effect is empowering. Ironic, really, isn't it?

And my faith in humanity is restored. Thanks, I appreciate it.

[MKfighter89]

Nykara wrote...

I am actually more concerned about the fact that the Catalyst said it couldn't be forced. Meaning the organics may not be ready for it yet. If they aren't ready for it then it could fail and they would end up right back where they started.

True, and doesn't Shep ask why not try this before? The Catalyst says we have tried similar situations and all have failed. Don't tell me you need organic matter from Shep to make it work (thats just BS like Shep is some special being), They could have took any organic and used them. They dont have to be controlled by the reapers to do this, but if they needed someone to freely choose the reapers couldn't they have just asked or found someone willing?

[Ieldra]

Auintus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

geceka wrote...
If anything, Synthesis only caters to the free will by expanding possibilities, quite the opposite of narrowing it. When EDI speaks of the possibility to overcome even mortality itself, that's what she's referring to, e.g. that by broadening the possibilities of the individual and enabling them to circumvent (or deprecate) even the most basic constraints of organic life as it has once been known, the ways in which the individual can blossom become limitless.

However, Synthesis is also not the universal cure for everything, it is just another stepping stone, like any technological advance before it. That the general sentiment after the war and while discovering the new possibilities afforded for by Synthesis is generally positive is not surprising, but I did not get any implications of "everlasting peace" or something like that from the EC slides, only that the aftermath of the Reaper conflict is – in this case – a positive one.

This is how I see it. Synthesis itself gives individuals no choice about accepting it, but the effect is empowering. Ironic, really, isn't it?

And my faith in humanity is restored. Thanks, I appreciate it.

Is what I've written surprising to you? I thought my thoughts on Synthesis were rather well-known  around here.

[Franky Figgs]

JillBSuiT wrote...

Nykara wrote...

I am actually more concerned about the fact that the Catalyst said it couldn't be forced. Meaning the organics may not be ready for it yet. If they aren't ready for it then it could fail and they would end up right back where they started.

True, and doesn't Shep ask why not try this before? The Catalyst says we have tried similar situations and all have failed. Don't tell me you need organic matter from Shep to make it work (thats just BS like Shep is some special being), They could have took any organic and used them. They dont have to be controlled by the reapers to do this, but if they needed someone to freely choose the reapers couldn't they have just asked or found someone willing?

The solution to synthesis can not be forced because a completely successful indoctrination of a thrall requires it to give their free will to become a thrall.
Indoctrination is the reasoning one imbraces to become a thrall. If that reasoning suffers any cognitive dissonance it will case the thrall suffer severe pain and mental damage or in some cases to self terminate.

[Edited for not address your point directly.  The catalyst doesn't consider thrall potential until after they rise to the challenge of the crucible. After this they acknowledge the thralls have a Will to express themselves in the galaxy that is equal too or greater than the Leviathans. It as at this point that Shepard is the person avalible for the choice. The choice is choosing to either rewritting framework for the AI, embracing that framework to work better, or ending it altogether]

Modifié par Franky Figgs, 17 mars 2013 - 05:27 .

[Riot86]

Sideria wrote...

Riot86 wrote...

The other logical explanation for organincs acting like that would be that their ways of thinking would change significantly after Synthesis.

Having unlimited access to knowledge and a hyper empathy change obviously the way of thinking... but for the better
Hate and anger are most of the time caused by incomprehension of others. And in Synthesis everybody understands each other.

Changing someone's way of thinking by force is brain-washing. It doesn't matter if you think the resulting "Utopia" is for the better, as this is your subjective view only. How can you know for sure that your view is the right one?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your belief and also think it would be great if people would care to understand each other more as this most likely would would reduce hatred and violence on this world. But that is just my personal opinion and I would never dare to force it on somebody else. I would maybe try to convince other people using arguments but I certainly have to left the decision whether they want to overthink their point-of-view or not to themselves.

It is a contradiction to say people have to appreciate each others more, but then ignoring their individual beliefs and imposing your opinion on them without their consent. Tolerance by defintion is something that cannot be forced as it is about respecting the beliefs of others, even if one might strongly disagree with those beliefs. Tolerance is something that has to be learned.

And stating that in the end everybody seems to be happy is irrelevant, as those people are not the same they were before. Maybe some humans didn't want to learnt to appreciate the other races and cultures in the first place. I personally would think they are complete idiots and of course would strongly differ in opinion with them as I think this is a terrible attitude. But I have to respect it nonetheless. And if those humans suddenly start to like aliens after Synthesis this has to be called "brain-washing" as their convictions have been forcefully replaced by an alternative set of beliefs.

[Reap_ii]

Solaxe wrote...

They gain empathy, but I doubt they lose free will

what if they already had empathy, like the Geth?  so, nothing gained?  synthesis is just so wacky.

[ruggly]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

geceka wrote...
If anything, Synthesis only caters to the free will by expanding possibilities, quite the opposite of narrowing it. When EDI speaks of the possibility to overcome even mortality itself, that's what she's referring to, e.g. that by broadening the possibilities of the individual and enabling them to circumvent (or deprecate) even the most basic constraints of organic life as it has once been known, the ways in which the individual can blossom become limitless.

However, Synthesis is also not the universal cure for everything, it is just another stepping stone, like any technological advance before it. That the general sentiment after the war and while discovering the new possibilities afforded for by Synthesis is generally positive is not surprising, but I did not get any implications of "everlasting peace" or something like that from the EC slides, only that the aftermath of the Reaper conflict is – in this case – a positive one.

This is how I see it. Synthesis itself gives individuals no choice about accepting it, but the effect is empowering. Ironic, really, isn't it?

And my faith in humanity is restored. Thanks, I appreciate it.

Is what I've written surprising to you? I thought my thoughts on Synthesis were rather well-known  around here.

Think he means the guy you quoted.

Edit: I guess I want to add that you're going to have a hell of a time trying to change someone if they don't want to.  I'm not saying that it is, but synthesis can be seen as forced empathy, and that is radically changing someone.   The only person that can change someone, in my opinion, is themselves. 

Modifié par ruggly, 17 mars 2013 - 05:44 .

[Bizantura]

Depends if there is a difference between organics and machines besides intelligence and self awareness.

If not then why not fuse and have the advantages of both.

If there is a significant difference besides intelligence and self awareness then that choise will be more profound in thinking it over before leaping......