411 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

I for one can't wait to be yelled at people half my age should I buy it.

Embrace the old curmudgeoness.  I do!

[Zeldrik1389]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

I for one can't wait to be yelled at people half my age should I buy it.

Remind me of the awkward moment when my 9 year old nephew (1/3 my age) called me nub while beating the shiet outta me in some Wii game xD

Modifié par Zeldrik1389, 17 avril 2013 - 09:40 .

[ptrst]

Truthfully don't care at this point. If a majority of the MP support is going to die in a year then meh.

[Rawgrim]

I can`t wait to play with Rz004u666 the dalish elf. Great immersioned rp experience to play with characters like that. It will really suck me into a belivable fantasy setting.

[Fast Jimmy]

Rawgrim wrote...

I can`t wait to play with Rz004u666 the dalish elf. Great immersioned rp experience to play with characters like that. It will really suck me into a belivable fantasy setting.

At this point, I see it as inevitable. There is too much money to be made with online. That whole "linking my game to the internet and immediate access to someone's digital bank account" is an undeniable lure for developers these days. Pandora's box has long ago been opened on this - people were just too absorbed in DLC, and MP death matches, and F2P games that they didn't notice.

Every game within 2 years will have an online component. Every game will have a way to get into the wallet of a gamer long after they ponied up for the base product. It really isn't even worth fighting anymore. The only opportunities otherwise are to go indie or quit gaming. Its a terrible, frightful shame, but hey... that's why you don't say guys like me are wearing tinfoil hats when we predicted stuff like this five years ago when DLC first came out. Its the most natural progression possible if you allow them the foot in the door they already have.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 17 avril 2013 - 11:39 .

[Dianjabla]

@ OP I... don't know. I am ambivalent.

When MP was announced in ME3 I thought, what a waste of resources, I'll never play that. And then one day I did, just to find out what it was all about. I'm glad I did. I loved it. It was co-op, PvE. It meant that as a noob who doesn't get much time to play, it didn't matter that I wasn't that good. Any positive contribution to the overall goal was better than none. I didn't spend most rounds dead after the first glimpse of another player who spent all day on the game and had all the best gear. People on your own team helped you. Mostly.

If you could get that experience with DAI, then maybe MP wouldn't be so bad. If like in ME3 you don't get to play your SP character, but you get to make another or several with a cut down skills tree you wouldn't get so attached to them. Maybe you could be a team of inquisitors or whatever fighting rogue templars or fighting blood mages or dark spawn or what ever the game brings. Fighting on a map the size of the Korcari Wilds to take objectives or whatever rather than waves of enemies could be interesting.

BUT, (and it's a big one) ME3 had an antagonist with which no one could sympathise. They were monsters out to kill EVERYONE. There was a good reason for everyone to team up. It even made sense in the SP narrative. DA:I does not have this. (Except maybe darkspawn.) There are going to be players who want to take sides. And this leads to the possibility of what would make me not want play. That you join teams. Like WoW. Templars or Mages. And then it's team PvP. Suddenly it does matter how much you get to play, what equipment your characters have, whether or not someone can sink a fortune into random item packs becomes a distinct advantage for them, and a miserable match for you if you can't or won't do the same and don't get the time to play much. Maybe there's now PVP servers and PvE servers and suddenly there's a whole lot more resources that might otherwise be spent on the SP campaign where I have the most fun. And yes, I know that just because theoretical money gets theoretically spent on MP doesn't mean that same said theoretical money would get theoretically spent on SP. There will also be people who think suck it up you wuss, I like PvP etc. Good for you. No, really, whatever floats your boat. I'm not attempting to speak for you or anyone besides myself.

Also, thanks Allan for taking the time to go through these thought experiments with us. I've enjoyed the two I've found so far. Until I read this thread I was totally against MP in DA:I. Now... it's a maybe?

Edit: Just thought I'd clarify: I'm not looking forward to MP in DAI per se, I'm just not so dead against it as I was when the rumour first came up. And really, at this point all it is is a rumour.

What I am hoping for, and looking foward to the fulfilment of said hope, is a game that improves on DAO and fixes what I think went wrong with DA2. Because really, the thing that annoyed me most about it was that I could see what a great game it could have been beneath the myriad of small flaws. If we get MP as good as that in ME3 to boot, well that's an added bonus.

Modifié par Dianjabla, 18 avril 2013 - 11:05 .

[SeismicGravy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Stuff involving a relationship between computer programming and science

But, if your suggesting that having a doctorate in computer programming makes you a scientist, does that not mean then that by rights you should start wearing a white labcoat and suspicious looking shades?

Modifié par SeismicGravy, 17 avril 2013 - 11:42 .

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Every game within 2 years will have an online component. Every game will have a way to get into the wallet of a gamer long after they ponied up for the base product. It really isn't even worth fighting anymore. The only opportunities otherwise are to go indie or quit gaming. Its a terrible, frightful shame, but hey... that's why you don't say guys like me are wearing tinfoil hats when we predicted stuff like this five years ago when DLC first came out. Its the most natural progression possible if you allow them the foot in the door they already have.

But, and this is exactly what people debated five years ago, not everyone is opposed to online components, or using digital distribution or modular design to increase revenues. Rather, it's an issue of what design choices that leads to and what features are implemented. 

There's a wide gulf between intentionally designing features to be an unpleasant grind so as to be able to farm the maximum amount of money from players and, for example, selling SP DLC weapons like in DA2/ME2-3 that make the SP gameplay a joke. 

[Iakus]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

At this point, I see it as inevitable. There is too much money to be made with online. That whole "linking my game to the internet and immediate access to someone's digital bank account" is an undeniable lure for developers these days. Pandora's box has long ago been opened on this - people were just too absorbed in DLC, and MP death matches, and F2P games that they didn't notice.

Every game within 2 years will have an online component. Every game will have a way to get into the wallet of a gamer long after they ponied up for the base product. It really isn't even worth fighting anymore. The only opportunities otherwise are to go indie or quit gaming. Its a terrible, frightful shame, but hey... that's why you don't say guys like me are wearing tinfoil hats when we predicted stuff like this five years ago when DLC first came out. Its the most natural progression possible if you allow them the foot in the door they already have.

This must be why the next couple of games I'm looking forward to are Project Eternity and Torment:: Tides of Numenera   At least the demand can get filled somewhere.<_<

[Fast Jimmy]

But, and this is exactly what people debated five years ago, not everyone is opposed to online components, or using digital distribution or modular design to increase revenues. Rather, it's an issue of what design choices that leads to and what features are implemented. 

There's a wide gulf between intentionally designing features to be an unpleasant grind so as to be able to farm the maximum amount of money from players and, for example, selling SP DLC weapons like in DA2/ME2-3 that make the SP gameplay a joke. 

To me, they aren't two different things, but just different sides of the same coin. The avenue for abuse is there and there is no regulation preventing said abuse. People say that the free market corrects companies to stay away from bad practices, but that is only when said practices don't make them money. I'd say the way ME3's MP was tied into SP was bad... but it wound up making a lot revenue for Bioware, so how likely is it that they will avoid this (or other developers not see it and do the same thing) in the future?

Point being, unless there is some kind of industry standard or actual legislation on how to handle said things, there will be abuse. Consumers will be manipulated. It's going to happen, to one degree or another.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 avril 2013 - 01:02 .

[Fast Jimmy]

iakus wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

At this point, I see it as inevitable. There is too much money to be made with online. That whole "linking my game to the internet and immediate access to someone's digital bank account" is an undeniable lure for developers these days. Pandora's box has long ago been opened on this - people were just too absorbed in DLC, and MP death matches, and F2P games that they didn't notice.

Every game within 2 years will have an online component. Every game will have a way to get into the wallet of a gamer long after they ponied up for the base product. It really isn't even worth fighting anymore. The only opportunities otherwise are to go indie or quit gaming[/b]. Its a terrible, frightful shame, but hey... that's why you don't say guys like me are wearing tinfoil hats when we predicted stuff like this five years ago when DLC first came out. Its the most natural progression possible if you allow them the foot in the door they already have.

This must be why the next couple of games I'm looking forward to are Project Eternity and Torment:: Tides of Numenera   At least the demand can get filled somewhere.<_<

Well, unless indie developers begin pursuing this for profit as well. The Banner Saga recently took a lot of flak for releasing a MP component before its promised SP on Kickstarter, arguably to generate cash flow for the developers with its F2P model. 

When you make things online, it inevitably leads to digital transactions. The entire phenomenon may have unavoidable over the long term, but it doesn't make certain people like myself happy. 

[MerinTB]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Well, unless indie developers begin pursuing this for profit as well. The Banner Saga recently took a lot of flak for releasing a MP component before its promised SP on Kickstarter, arguably to generate cash flow for the developers with its F2P model.

For one, Stoic had talked about the multiplayer during the Kickstarter campaign.  It's a free add-on for the game, even for people who don't purchase the game.  Part of the reason for the early release of the multiplayer was to help test the combat system.

The microtransactions for Factions didn't give you anything you couldn't earn yourself with a very little patience.

They did not come up with the multiplayer out of nowhere, or hide their intentions from their backers about releasing a free-to-play multiplayer.  And the microtransactions are not the get cash flow for the developers nor to finish the singleplayer, only to help offset the cost of maintaining the servers and such for running the free multiplayer.

This is such a non-issue created out of pre-conceived axes to grind and made-up accusations.

[Fast Jimmy]

MerinTB wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Well, unless indie developers begin pursuing this for profit as well. The Banner Saga recently took a lot of flak for releasing a MP component before its promised SP on Kickstarter, arguably to generate cash flow for the developers with its F2P model.

For one, Stoic had talked about the multiplayer during the Kickstarter campaign.  It's a free add-on for the game, even for people who don't purchase the game.  Part of the reason for the early release of the multiplayer was to help test the combat system.

The microtransactions for Factions didn't give you anything you couldn't earn yourself with a very little patience.

They did not come up with the multiplayer out of nowhere, or hide their intentions from their backers about releasing a free-to-play multiplayer.  And the microtransactions are not the get cash flow for the developers nor to finish the singleplayer, only to help offset the cost of maintaining the servers and such for running the free multiplayer.

This is such a non-issue created out of pre-conceived axes to grind and made-up accusations.

This all fair enough... but I did not say they were evil. I did not even say it was something I agreed or disagreed with. I simply said they received flak for it. And it just is a demonstration that indie developers are not going to sit by and let online components and things like microtransactions pass them by, any more than big name publishers. At least, not inherently because they are indie publishers. If they have a moral stance against it (and they have enough funding to ignore it, while simultaneously not having shareholders to answer to that require compromising any moral stance someone may have), then that is cool.

But indie developers will not inherently be against or avoiding MP/online components/microtransactions simply because they are indie.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 avril 2013 - 02:19 .

[Phoenix_Fyre]

Ok call me really really later to the party but.... when did MP become an option in Dragon Age?

[Fast Jimmy]

Phoenix_Fyre wrote...

Ok call me really really later to the party but.... when did MP become an option in Dragon Age?

The day... the music... died. 

[schebobo]

Dianjabla wrote...

@ OP I... don't know. I am ambivalent.

When MP was announced in ME3 I thought, what a waste of resources, I'll never play that. And then one day I did, just to find out what it was all about. I'm glad I did. I loved it. It was co-op, PvE. It meant that as a noob who doesn't get much time to play, it didn't matter that I wasn't that good. Any positive contribution to the overall goal was better than none. I didn't spend most rounds dead after the first glimpse of another player who spent all day on the game and had all the best gear. People on your own team helped you. Mostly.

If you could get that experience with DAI, then maybe MP wouldn't be so bad. If like in ME3 you don't get to play your SP character, but you get to make another or several with a cut down skills tree you wouldn't get so attached to them. Maybe you could be a team of inquisitors or whatever fighting rogue templars or fighting blood mages or dark spawn or what ever the game brings. Fighting on a map the size of the Korcari Wilds to take objectives or whatever rather than waves of enemies could be interesting.

BUT, (and it's a big one) ME3 had an antagonist with which no one could sympathise. They were monsters out to kill EVERYONE. There was a good reason for everyone to team up. It even made sense in the SP narrative. DA:I does not have this. (Except maybe darkspawn.) There are going to be players who want to take sides. And this leads to the possibility of what would make me not want play. That you join teams. Like WoW. Templars or Mages. And then it's team PvP. Suddenly it does matter how much you get to play, what equipment your characters have, whether or not someone can sink a fortune into random item packs becomes a distinct advantage for them, and a miserable match for you if you can't or won't do the same and don't get the time to play much. Maybe there's now PVP servers and PvE servers and suddenly there's a whole lot more resources that might otherwise be spent on the SP campaign where I have the most fun. And yes, I know that just because theoretical money gets theoretically spent on MP doesn't mean that same said theoretical money would get theoretically spent on SP. There will also be people who think suck it up you wuss, I like PvP etc. Good for you. No, really, whatever floats your boat. I'm not attempting to speak for you or anyone besides myself.

Also, thanks Allan for taking the time to go through these thought experiments with us. I've enjoyed the two I've found so far. Until I read this thread I was totally against MP in DA:I. Now... it's a maybe?

This.

As long as they make it co-op and not PvP, twould be a win for everyone. 

The number of awesome people I've met through ME3 MP and the sheer amount of fun I've had with said people chatting about random **** and LOL'in hard at noobs can never be replicated by SP. 

[Fast Jimmy]

schebobo wrote...

Dianjabla wrote...

@ OP I... don't know. I am ambivalent.

When MP was announced in ME3 I thought, what a waste of resources, I'll never play that. And then one day I did, just to find out what it was all about. I'm glad I did. I loved it. It was co-op, PvE. It meant that as a noob who doesn't get much time to play, it didn't matter that I wasn't that good. Any positive contribution to the overall goal was better than none. I didn't spend most rounds dead after the first glimpse of another player who spent all day on the game and had all the best gear. People on your own team helped you. Mostly.

If you could get that experience with DAI, then maybe MP wouldn't be so bad. If like in ME3 you don't get to play your SP character, but you get to make another or several with a cut down skills tree you wouldn't get so attached to them. Maybe you could be a team of inquisitors or whatever fighting rogue templars or fighting blood mages or dark spawn or what ever the game brings. Fighting on a map the size of the Korcari Wilds to take objectives or whatever rather than waves of enemies could be interesting.

BUT, (and it's a big one) ME3 had an antagonist with which no one could sympathise. They were monsters out to kill EVERYONE. There was a good reason for everyone to team up. It even made sense in the SP narrative. DA:I does not have this. (Except maybe darkspawn.) There are going to be players who want to take sides. And this leads to the possibility of what would make me not want play. That you join teams. Like WoW. Templars or Mages. And then it's team PvP. Suddenly it does matter how much you get to play, what equipment your characters have, whether or not someone can sink a fortune into random item packs becomes a distinct advantage for them, and a miserable match for you if you can't or won't do the same and don't get the time to play much. Maybe there's now PVP servers and PvE servers and suddenly there's a whole lot more resources that might otherwise be spent on the SP campaign where I have the most fun. And yes, I know that just because theoretical money gets theoretically spent on MP doesn't mean that same said theoretical money would get theoretically spent on SP. There will also be people who think suck it up you wuss, I like PvP etc. Good for you. No, really, whatever floats your boat. I'm not attempting to speak for you or anyone besides myself.

Also, thanks Allan for taking the time to go through these thought experiments with us. I've enjoyed the two I've found so far. Until I read this thread I was totally against MP in DA:I. Now... it's a maybe?

This.

As long as they make it co-op and not PvP, twould be a win for everyone. 

The number of awesome people I've met through ME3 MP and the sheer amount of fun I've had with said people chatting about random **** and LOL'in hard at noobs can never be replicated by SP. 

The amount of engagement in a great story and variables in how my choices affect things can never be replicated by MP.

So... there's that.

[Damate]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Phoenix_Fyre wrote...

Ok call me really really later to the party but.... when did MP become an option in Dragon Age?

The day... the music... died. 

....aw, goddammit, Fast Jimmy, now it's stuck in my heeeeaaaaad.  

Dianjabla wrote...

*SNIP*

^ What Dianjabla posted. 100% It sums up how I felt about ME3 MP, both before and after finally trying it out, etc. [As well as the Kudos for Allan, whose level of engagement with BSN is fantastic]. I truly hope any MP that makes it to the DA IP is co-op, without PvP elements. I have a blast playing with friends and family, and PvP can be entertaining... until you are faced with the stark reality of how skewed it is towards those with more time and/or money, and/or awesome gamer skills than I myself happen to possess. And, really, all the power to people who love PvP and are great at it. It's just not something I'm good at, at all. 

That said, one thing I experienced with ME3's MP is a vast improvement in my skills with shooter games. I went from being a pause-every-two-seconds-on-casual-play sort of noob player to being able to tackle MP with enjoyment and, even better, play SP with way better skills and the ability to finally play at higher difficulty levels. For me it was kind of awesome to see my abilities improve. If DA could facilitate the same thing, I'd be pleased. For example, I'm not much of a tactical thinker. If DA MP demanded cooperative tactics in more 'traditional' RPG manner, I'd be... well, daunted at first, but then thrilled if it improved my own grasp of how to play in that manner. 

So... here's hoping? 

[schebobo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

schebobo wrote...

Dianjabla wrote...

@ OP I... don't know. I am ambivalent.

When MP was announced in ME3 I thought, what a waste of resources, I'll never play that. And then one day I did, just to find out what it was all about. I'm glad I did. I loved it. It was co-op, PvE. It meant that as a noob who doesn't get much time to play, it didn't matter that I wasn't that good. Any positive contribution to the overall goal was better than none. I didn't spend most rounds dead after the first glimpse of another player who spent all day on the game and had all the best gear. People on your own team helped you. Mostly.

If you could get that experience with DAI, then maybe MP wouldn't be so bad. If like in ME3 you don't get to play your SP character, but you get to make another or several with a cut down skills tree you wouldn't get so attached to them. Maybe you could be a team of inquisitors or whatever fighting rogue templars or fighting blood mages or dark spawn or what ever the game brings. Fighting on a map the size of the Korcari Wilds to take objectives or whatever rather than waves of enemies could be interesting.

BUT, (and it's a big one) ME3 had an antagonist with which no one could sympathise. They were monsters out to kill EVERYONE. There was a good reason for everyone to team up. It even made sense in the SP narrative. DA:I does not have this. (Except maybe darkspawn.) There are going to be players who want to take sides. And this leads to the possibility of what would make me not want play. That you join teams. Like WoW. Templars or Mages. And then it's team PvP. Suddenly it does matter how much you get to play, what equipment your characters have, whether or not someone can sink a fortune into random item packs becomes a distinct advantage for them, and a miserable match for you if you can't or won't do the same and don't get the time to play much. Maybe there's now PVP servers and PvE servers and suddenly there's a whole lot more resources that might otherwise be spent on the SP campaign where I have the most fun. And yes, I know that just because theoretical money gets theoretically spent on MP doesn't mean that same said theoretical money would get theoretically spent on SP. There will also be people who think suck it up you wuss, I like PvP etc. Good for you. No, really, whatever floats your boat. I'm not attempting to speak for you or anyone besides myself.

Also, thanks Allan for taking the time to go through these thought experiments with us. I've enjoyed the two I've found so far. Until I read this thread I was totally against MP in DA:I. Now... it's a maybe?

This.

As long as they make it co-op and not PvP, twould be a win for everyone. 

The number of awesome people I've met through ME3 MP and the sheer amount of fun I've had with said people chatting about random **** and LOL'in hard at noobs can never be replicated by SP. 

The amount of engagement in a great story and variables in how my choices affect things can never be replicated by MP.

So... there's that.

Yes true, but all I'm saying is that there is no need to be so closed minded over MP just because you hate COD and it's ilk.

As long as an MP is made well and doesn't detract from the SP, it has the potential to prolong the franchise and go further than the SP experience while letting you meet new cool new people. Thats a win win for me.

With regards to the potential of whiny teens or kids yammering in the MP, I would say that games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect hardly have a young following. Bioware games tend to be made more for adults in a way that even 'mature' games like GTA aren't. In fact in my ME3 MP experience I can pretty much count on my fingers the number of sprogs I've met. 

Oh and one more thing, I would say that they key to DA:I MP being succesful would lie in it being co-op instead of PvP as Dianjabla and others have already mentioned. The accessabilty of co-op MP is key really. Anyone can pick it up and have fun.

Modifié par schebobo, 18 avril 2013 - 12:18 .

[Brockololly]

Am I looking forward to MP in DA3? No, not really. But I'd need to actually know something about it one way or the other before making a judgement. I'm looking forward to MP in DA3 as much as I'm looking forward to SP in Battlefield 4- namely not much, because I go to BioWare RPGs for the SP just as much as I go to Battlefield for the MP.

I definitely have reservations though. Its not in the same boat as ME3, where you could pretty easily see how they could adapt the core gameplay into MP fairly smoothly. With DA, I don't really see how they could do a PvP or even an ME3 style coop without ending up having the MP combat experience significantly different than what you'd experience in SP. I kind of doubt they'd allow for pausing and I kind of doubt they'd allow full party control. Both of which are central pillars of what I view in DA's combat.

Unless they end up doing the campaign itself as being workable with coop integration via allowing drop in, drop out control of party members like BG. But even with that, I'd be skeptical that integration in this day and age wouldn't end up tampering with the experience of someone that only played SP. The BG integration of coop was pretty rough around the edges and I doubt that would fly in this day and age without some big overhauls.

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 avril 2013 - 02:04 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I can't see a standard co-op being the route they take. Not to say that they couldn't pull it off, but just that I don't see any money in it. And I am 100% of the mind that putting MP into a DA game is money-making move. Either with it preventing piracy, discouraging used copy sales through online passes and/or working in a way to generate revenue with microtransactions... a co-op feature just isn't a powerful enough motivator to get a large percentage of your population to participate.

If making money (or preventing losses) is the goal of a MP component, I do not think co-op has enough of a pull to accomplish this. Not unless the game is so difficult that many players would need the extra assistance of the co-op, which I could possibky get behind. But I doubt that such a strategy would be embraced.

[robertthebard]

schebobo wrote...

Yes true, but all I'm saying is that there is no need to be so closed minded over MP just because you hate COD and it's ilk.

As long as an MP is made well and doesn't detract from the SP, it has the potential to prolong the franchise and go further than the SP experience while letting you meet new cool new people. Thats a win win for me.

With regards to the potential of whiny teens or kids yammering in the MP, I would say that games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect hardly have a young following. Bioware games tend to be made more for adults in a way that even 'mature' games like GTA aren't. In fact in my ME3 MP experience I can pretty much count on my fingers the number of sprogs I've met. 

Oh and one more thing, I would say that they key to DA:I MP being succesful would lie in it being co-op instead of PvP as Dianjabla and others have already mentioned. The accessabilty of co-op MP is key really. Anyone can pick it up and have fun.

I spent 3 hours last night redownloading 1.2 gigs of hak packs, CEP, and patches and reinstalling NWN's and patches to revisit a NWN's server I played on for 3 years.  I'd say that NWN MP was definitely beneficial to the franchise, and swings full circle to the first post I made in this thread:  Add a toolset, that doesn't require 10 college degrees to use, and let the community go nuts with it.  I wouldn't have spent a total of 5 years on NWN's if it was just SP.  The upside to this is that likeminded people can end up on likeminded servers.  PvP, PvE, RP, all are supportable, depending on who's building, and who's joining.  I really liked that direction, and had hoped that games would continue down that path.

[Talonfire]

I can't say I am, but as long as it doesn't feel forced like it initially was in Mass Effect 3 (if you wanted the best version of the Destroy ending), and it doesn't take too much time and resources away from the single player component, I don't care if it's present.

[Mr_Steph]

Hell yeah!!!

[Silas7]

Vajraja wrote...

Personally don't care too much for multiplayer in games like this. If I'm in an MP mood I will play call of duty or play an mmo.

I'm not going to complain if there is a mp component - I would just rather the energy be spent on making the best single player experience possible. That is the reason I purchase a Bioware game. I like specialization in what I get.

Everything that I feel is said here.