108 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

Rommel49 wrote...

Control doesn't leave you with a safety net, simply because the Reapers are still around. Destroy's the only option with a real safety net, because it's the only one in which the Reapers actually end up dead.

Shepard only concluded the cycles were wrong when he was organic; that Shepard is gone in the Control ending. Incidentally, organic-Shep was informed of his beliefs, etc. by friends, colleagues, etc. for all practical purposes he loses all of those in Control too. The Catalyst makes no bones about this when he says that you can remember them, but you'll always be isolated from them.

That last point is one of the most critical. The only intelligent creatures Catalyst-Shep would be able to theoretically communicate with are Reapers. Anyone you potentially cared about, everyone you knew? Best you can do is watch them all die off of old age, then watch their remains crumble to dust over the next few million years. It's something right out "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" from the AI's POV; if that didn't drive anyone who experienced it nuts, it's only because they'd already gone cuckoo for cocoa puffs beforehand.

That's also the exact lesson with the Clone in Citadel: Shepard is nothing good without his friends and their views/support. If you didn't think the Clone plot screamed "Control won't work out well", you weren't paying attention or are in denial.

[Eterna]

Rommel49 wrote...

Control doesn't leave you with a safety net, simply because the Reapers are still around. Destroy's the only option with a real safety net, because it's the only one in which the Reapers actually end up dead.

You missed what I was saying entirely, Control creates a safety net against the Organic vs Synthetic conflict, Destroy does not. 

Shepard only concluded the cycles were wrong when he was organic; that Shepard is gone in the Control

And is replaced by a Synthetic being that has all of Shepards morals, beliefs, memories and convictions. Ergo, the new Synthetic believes what Shepard believed about the cycles. 

Incidentally, organic-Shep was informed of his beliefs, etc. by friends, colleagues, etc. for all practical purposes he loses all of those in Control too. The Catalyst makes no bones about this when he says that you can remember them, but you'll always be isolated from them.

 

"Through my birth, her thoughts were freed. They guide me now, give me reason, direction, purpose"
"And I will watch over the ones who live on, the ones who carry the memory of what I once was"
"I will never forget the ones who sacrificed themselves so the many culd survive"

Those all seem to imply otherwise. 

That last point is one of the most critical. The only intelligent creatures Catalyst-Shep would be able to theoretically communicate with are Reapers. Anyone you potentially cared about, everyone you knew? Best you can do is watch them all die off of old age, then watch their remains crumble to dust over the next few million years. It's something right out "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" from the AI's POV; if that didn't drive anyone who experienced it nuts, it's only because they'd already gone cuckoo for cocoa puffs beforehand.

Actions speak louder than words. A shackled AI wouldn't get bored or feel tortured, it is content to simply follow its mandate. In the case of the new Reaper AI, that is to protect organic life while adhereing to Shepards belief system. 

[Eterna]

BleedingUranium wrote...

That's also the exact lesson with the Clone in Citadel: Shepard is nothing good without his friends and their views/support. If you didn't think the Clone plot screamed "Control won't work out well", you weren't paying attention or are in denial.

Shepard does lose his/her friends because she/he is dead. But their influence on Shepards personality and identity will guide the new Ai forevermore. In that sense, they are still a part of Shepard. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 18 mars 2013 - 08:13 .

[BleedingUranium]

Eterna5 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

That's also the exact lesson with the Clone in Citadel: Shepard is nothing good without his friends and their views/support. If you didn't think the Clone plot screamed "Control won't work out well", you weren't paying attention or are in denial.

Shepard does lose his/her friends because she/he is dead. But their influence on Shepards personality and identity will guide the new Ai forevermore. In that sense, they are still a part of Shepard.

You learned nothing from Grunt.

[Eterna]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

That's also the exact lesson with the Clone in Citadel: Shepard is nothing good without his friends and their views/support. If you didn't think the Clone plot screamed "Control won't work out well", you weren't paying attention or are in denial.

Shepard does lose his/her friends because she/he is dead. But their influence on Shepards personality and identity will guide the new Ai forevermore. In that sense, they are still a part of Shepard.

You learned nothing from Grunt.

This is clearly shown to be different in the epilogue, if you're going to argue something then you can't ignore what is presented by the game itself. 

I mean come one, Grunt isn't a shackled AI with a mandate for starters. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 18 mars 2013 - 08:18 .

[Ieldra]

LtBashkar wrote...

Meh.

I pick based on whichever character I'm playing.

Dito. My main Shepards choose Synthesis and Control, respectively.

I can't see how my paragon Shepard could choose Destroy (annihilation of a fully sentient, unique race + Reapers are totally gone) over Synthesis (symbiosis of tech and flesh, everyone survives, can reap the benefits of advancement).

There's no mind control aspect, no 'synthesis = reaper abominations' or everyone giving in to indoctrination in Synthesis nor is there the Geth surviving in Destroy unless you viciously headcanon.

Making everyone glow green and changing their existence overall for the better while having access to cycles worth of knowledge sure beats wiping out a race just to kill the Reapers and gain no other benefit.

My reasoning exactly. As how Citadel DLC fits into it, I think the goodbye scene is not so much a nod to Destroy rather than an invitation to create your own post-ending scenario. It's Bioware saying "We've told our story, now if you want your Shepard to reunite with his friends (Destroy), come back from the dead again (Synthesis) or reconnect to his friends (Control), then make it so. It's your story from now on."

While I'm at it: from my point of view, it's outright odd to see how few people take ownership of their post-ending scenarios. If you want something to happen and you find a lore-compatible way to make it happen, why shouldn't it be part of your MEU timeline?

[BleedingUranium]

Because headcanon is not canon.

[Ieldra]

BleedingUranium wrote...
Because headcanon is not canon.

There is no canon after the endings, except for what the epilogue shows and tells us. There is room for countless untold stories in every post-ending scenario, and since Bioware doesn't tell any of them, we are free to do so.  

[BleedingUranium]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Because headcanon is not canon.

There is no canon after the endings, except for what the epilogue shows and tells us. There is room for countless untold stories in every post-ending scenario, and since Bioware doesn't tell any of them, we are free to do so.

You're always free to create headcanon, but it's never canon. That's how headcanon works.

[Yestare7]

KingNothing125 wrote...

I'm all for pro-Destroy messages, because the other options are awful..

+1


Edi dies, Geth die, oh well.



Y

[CosmicGnosis]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Because headcanon is not canon.

There is no canon after the endings, except for what the epilogue shows and tells us. There is room for countless untold stories in every post-ending scenario, and since Bioware doesn't tell any of them, we are free to do so.

You're always free to create headcanon, but it's never canon. That's how headcanon works.

Then does the entire universe just cease to exist the moment the game ends? Hell, the original endings were completely based on the concept of "speculation". BioWare wanted us to create our own interpretations and future possibilities. Will the krogan truly reform their society? Will Wrex lose support? Is another rebellion guaranteed if Wreav leads the krogan? Will Wreav's campaign of revenge lose support? The original endings answered none of these questions. The future was left completely open. There were no official canon scenarios.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 18 mars 2013 - 09:04 .

[BleedingUranium]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Then does the entire universe just cease to exist the moment the game ends? Hell, the original endings were completely based on the concept of "speculation". BioWare wanted us to create our own interpretations and future possibilities. Will the krogan truly reform their society? Will Wrex lose support? Is another rebellion guaranteed if Wreav leads the krogan? Will Wreav's campaign of revenge lose support? The original endings answered none of these questions. The future was left completely open. There were no official canon scenarios.

All stories have a point where the narrative ends, this is no different. The end of the narrative is the end of anything canon.

[CosmicGnosis]

BleedingUranium wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Then does the entire universe just cease to exist the moment the game ends? Hell, the original endings were completely based on the concept of "speculation". BioWare wanted us to create our own interpretations and future possibilities. Will the krogan truly reform their society? Will Wrex lose support? Is another rebellion guaranteed if Wreav leads the krogan? Will Wreav's campaign of revenge lose support? The original endings answered none of these questions. The future was left completely open. There were no official canon scenarios.

All stories have a point where the narrative ends, this is no different. The end of the narrative is the end of anything canon.

Yes, but the writers have given us the license to create our own future scenarios.

[Bill Casey]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Yes, but the writers have given us the license to create our own future scenarios.

If that's the case, then in the future I build a time machine with my balls, go back in time and have Garrus callibrate the crucible so it only destroys reapers...

[Archonsg]

The problem is that you (OP) are trying to make sense of the Catalyst which is essentially a broken AI, stuck with a programming that does not allow for adaptation of its core directives. That regardless of evidence, regardless of variable possibilities, synthetics cannot coexist with organics. That its desired solution is "synthesis" which so far it has failed in achieving, and having failed that, had plan B, which is to create synthetics to kill organics to prevent organics from making synthetics who would kill them.

Right.

Other than tge very contrived and rather forced "fake" conflict of choice presented by the Catalyst for each choice, such as "oh you can destroy the Reapers but you also have to destroy most of the tech you rely on (lie), your ally (if you brokered a peace with the Geth) and friend (if you played as non racist Paragon).

I still blame those responsible for writing this crap, not thinking it through and essentially trying to push (obviously) synthesis as the preferred nivarna choice.

Simple fix, remove the Catalyst from the equation.
No circular logic.
No BS fake conflict of choice.
No forced suicides.
Just what Shepard set out to do from ME1, to stop the reapers by uniting the Galaxy. Or if your Shepard is rather sociopathic, just Stop the Reapers regardless of cost.

[Walsh1980]

I lean a bit more towards Destroy after Citadel as well... mostly because I think Shepard deserves to live a nice humble life after what (s)he's done. But then I think about how nice it was to see the Geth make peace with the Quarians and EDI becoming more and more "alive" and I lean back towards Control.

The Citadel dlc at least gives me some new headcanon options... Liara uses her resources as the Shadow Broker to find the clone Shepard's body and with Miranda's help they repeat the Lazarus project, where the new Shepalyst-god uploads Shepard's memories into it. Nanomachines of course.

Synthesis... I've learned to ignore.

Modifié par Walsh1980, 18 mars 2013 - 10:36 .

[tg0618]

Bio90 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Tony0618 wrote...

Synthesis: the Reapers are still there, and what's to stop them from still attacking, do they still lack free will? If so, since we are "all the same" now won't we? Do they get their free will? If so what's to stop them from deciding to conquer the galaxy?

Assumes human reaction! [/Mordin]

The Reapers have no motive to conquer us.

(I'll let other Controllers tackle your Control analysis).

But who's to say that the reapers won't develope a motive? They are more clearly the supprior force in the galaxy. What's would happen if they realised this after the merge since they would be self aware as an organic would? Looking at humans in real life, what has happened when a group has supprior power? They try to control and dominate. Who's to say this wouldn't happen with the reapers.
I'm not trying to bash on the synthetic or control, just trying to see what makes others drawn to them since I have only beaten the game once with destroy and just about to finish again to see the others.

Exactly. I feel that as long as the Reapers exist there is a chance that history repeats itself. The only way that the yhave no chance is if they no longer exist. But as I said it's my rationale for it, if others like Synthesis then great.

Modifié par Tony0618, 18 mars 2013 - 11:40 .

[tg0618]

Eterna5 wrote...

Tony0618 wrote... 

Control: they are controled (obviously) by a Shepard VI or AI, whose to say VI Shep won't get a virus or evenually come to the same conclusion as the catalyst? Or any number of things that could cause the Reapers to come back and "harvest" again.

A virus? Lol, how on earth would it get a virus? it is not like it's hooked up to the extranet. Also, the new Catalyst is a synthetic representation of your Shepard, As far as I know, all Shepards view the cycle as disgusting and wrong, thus so does the new Catalyst.  

The are many different things that could happen. A virus was just a quick example. Heck for all we know someone else can come along and "assume direct control" centuries or millenia from now and replace the VI Shepard. Not saying it will happen only that it could. Also a representation isn't the real thing, there's no telling what could happen. I'm not saying these things will happen only that there is a chance, and in my mind, any chance is too much of a chance. The only choice that ensures there is no chance of Reapers ever coming back is the choice that eradicates them. As I've stated this is just my reasoning behind my choice if others are happy with their choice then great, more power to them.

[Hadeedak]

Tony's reasoning right there is why Destroy's my go-to choice on a renegade. It's pragmatic, ruthless, and certain.

Also, while I'm not saying it makes me happy to think of Kaidan and Yoshimi having a post-ending hug, it makes me happy to think of Kaidan and Yoshimi having a post-ending hug.

My next runthrough is my Thanemancing synthesizer, so I don't think the party will do much beyond make me sob a bit.

[Auld Wulf]

@Tony

The Reapers are all slaves to a control program. With Synthesis, you are satisfying the goals of the control program (the Catalyst tells you that itself). Thus, the Reapers will finally have achieved freedom. What each Reaper then chooses to do is their business. And it appears that, according to the Synthesis ending, the Reapers have chosen to help.

With the Reapers now having free will, bodies could be created for the peoples stored within the Reaper consensuses, too. So those civilisations could be slowly restored over time. Given that possibility I see no reason why most of them would choose to attack. Sure, you might have one or two bad Reapers, but I think that the majority consensus of each Reaper is going to be rebuilding their bodies, and rebuilding their civilisations.

This is also why I don't like Destroy. It's putting a bullet in the head of a slave, when their only crime was that they were being mind-controlled. My compassion is too great, my sympathy too understanding, and my sense of ethics is too refined to do so. For a military jarhead, I suppose pulling the trigger on a bunch of innocent people is acceptable. But for me it is not.

[d-boy15]

Auld Wulf wrote...
For a military jarhead, I suppose pulling the trigger on a bunch of innocent people is acceptable. But for me it is not.

It's acceptable for me when a bunch of innocent people wielding an AK. 

[Drewton]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Many see the Reapers as faceless, cthulhu-like killers. Not many realise that the Reapers are actually entire civilisations enslaved by a control program, and that they have no control over their own actions.

So Harbinger never ASSUMED DIRECT CONTROL?

[Ieldra]

Drewton wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...
Many see the Reapers as faceless, cthulhu-like killers. Not many realise that the Reapers are actually entire civilisations enslaved by a control program, and that they have no control over their own actions.

So Harbinger never ASSUMED DIRECT CONTROL?

As I see it, the Reapers are mind-controlled. They can choose their actions to a certain degree, but their will is subverted to make them take only actions which will serve the Catalyst's goal, and they're not aware of it.

As for the question of free will, you may choose how to act, but you have no control about what you want. The Catalyst implants an absolute "want" in the Reapers, and they follow that program.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 mars 2013 - 03:01 .

[AlexMBrennan]

OP: You might have a point if Shepard had some reliable source of exposition on the Crucible's function - but since he does not it is ultimately irrelevant and Citadel changes nothing. It all comes down to "Do I believe the head reaper that not killing the reapers is a good idea moments after shooting the last guy they tricked into believing the exact same thing"

[Sundance31us]

Personally I think the Citadel DLC made Control more interesting.