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Shepard only surviving in destroy a deal breaker?


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#126
Kais Endac

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HolyAvenger wrote...

Kais Endac wrote...

That will *really* go down well with the fanbase especially those that are a bit too attached to their LI.
The thing is that Bioware has tried to do the whole difficult choices [ending choices] thing and [while not a majority] a significant amount of people didn't like it. 

For me I don't want deep dark and morally ambigious endings, it's ok in films/books and games that stick to a linear path (since I wouldn't get attached to the characters or may not even buy the game since it's clearly not my sort of thing) but for a game like mass effect I would have liked the option to have a happier bittersweet ending even if it was relegated to an option that had to be activated. That way my enjoyment of the ending is not ruining other peoples. But again I'm only one person so maybe it might have just made things worse.


That's the whole point. The whole game is about the swathes of the death and destructions the Reapers have inflicted but till the endgame, Shepard and the Normandy are pretty immune. Hence why I think an endgame where he also escaped scott-free once would have been far too cheesy for me. The breath ending skirts that edge pretty heavily.

I honestly wonder what game the happily-ever-after crowd were playing, because it sure wasn't the same ME3 as me. I was questioning the level of bittersweet and tears I was going to get, not wondering if I was going to get it at all.

I get that people wanted a super-duper happy ending. It just wasn't something I was ever interested in or expecting, personally. I can't remember the last BioWare game that delivered an unambiguously happy ending, personally. Jade Empire maybe.


For me one of the prevelent themes in the ME trillogy is victory despite the odds, Shepard walks into impossible situations in every game and not only beats the odds but comes out on top and while the odds will invariably catch up with him it was never really pushed until ME3.

The problem with ME3 is it sends conflicting messages and the things that were set in concrete in earlier games are now up in the air, especailly since the earlier two games made out that options like synthesis and control are unacceptable things like "sacrificing the soul the of species" were ruled out by shepard. 

I get that the third game is darker the scale and sheer destruction of the war is driven home in virtually every scene but the ending should have contained a less bitter, bittersweet ending. There are a  lot of fans that are either ok or happy with the current endings but there are just as many that wanated a happier (not disney happy but happier) destroy ending that had closure and did not require the forced sacrife of the Geth and EDI to balance out the endings because the fact is that (during the game) it is driven home that entire planets have been decimated billions are dead and Shepards is likly severely traumatized by what he/she has seen the entire game is dark.

What some people wanted (myself included) was some closure to destory [without headcanon] and a more more prvelent theme of hope and resoration while retaining the fact of rememberence of the fallen (which EC partially provided with it's slideshow).

The option of one ending among many that catered to these people would not have effected people that didn't want it. It has nothing to do metagaming or immersion the simple fact is that if you don't want to see that ending you don't choose it. Everyone comes out of the game with a different perspective of the various themes and the tone of the game.

For me a game that stands out is Suikoden V it really makes you work for the "happy" ending while not destroying the underlying themes in the game, To obtain this ending the player must obtain all 108 stars in the game otherwise the player is treated to a bittersweet ending that results in the prince losing his closest friend to her injuries. The game is not to the same scale as ME3 and not as mature, but the happy ending actually stands out while not destroying the sense of loss that the protagonist felt and the nation as a hole to the civil war.

Edit: I should note that while I'm definatly not a fan of the endings, at this stage they should not be changed because
1) it's too late in the game an will not help any
2) it is ultimately bioware's game and artistic integrity aside the EC fixed most peoples issues and any futher "fixes" will be a waste of time and money and as a fan of bioware games I would rather see it invested in their next games (can't wait to play DA:I) 

Modifié par Kais Endac, 18 mars 2013 - 03:45 .


#127
HolyAvenger

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^I get it. People wanted a happier ending.

I just don't agree that BioWare should have delivered one. Just my $0.02. We'll have to agree to disagree.

#128
Drewton

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I don't want happy endings, just endings that don't go against everything that came before.

#129
zakdillon

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I always go for destroy. I'll say that up front.

Shepard surviving is a big deal for me. I always felt like shepard was built to be a "conquering hero", not a "tragic hero". That is, not until the beam run.

But honestly, I was shocked that people even chose Control or Synthesis as a valid option. I thought those were last second "Gotcha!"s. One last trick to try and kill Shepard. I mean, for the last three games, all we had seen was people time and time again trying (and failing) to control the reapers. From TIM to the Protheans. And I still fail to see how synthesis solves all the universe's problems. I mean, people always find things to fight about. If its not organic vs synthetic, it will be metal vs squishy. Asari vs Geth. Human vs Turian. Organic vs Synthetic is just one problem among many in the Mass Effect universe.

So when I played the first time, it was all "NIce try, reapers. But you're gonna have to come up with something better than that to trick me."

#130
Argolas

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Shepard's death is meaningful in Control and Synthesis. None of both could be possible without him/her dying. Shepard's death is not required to destroy the reapers, killing Shep off in that ending would be for no reason. That is why it is fine to let Shepard die in all endings except the ultimate one that follows the Destroy option.

#131
nrobbiec

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Destroy is the only ending that feels triumphant, control is creepy and synthesis is just weird. And yeah, Shepard surviving plays a part in that. Watching Kaidan lower the plaque was a lot more powerful than putting it on the wall and Hackett's speech about rebuilding everything it's really the only ending with hope as I see it.

#132
CaIIisto

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Surprised anyone fell for synthesis.

Image IPB

#133
Argolas

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Bester76 wrote...

Surprised anyone fell for synthesis.

Image IPB


How does that work I wonder...

#134
CaIIisto

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Argolas wrote...

How does that work I wonder...


Disney space magic.

#135
MassivelyEffective0730

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HolyAvenger wrote...

^I get it. People wanted a happier ending.

I just don't agree that BioWare should have delivered one. Just my $0.02. We'll have to agree to disagree.


Let's put it this way. BW promised a whole array of endings. Couldn't... shouldn't one of those endings be... not happy, but uplifting? One that gives you a sense of accomplishment and payout for your 100+ trilogy run? One where your Shepad, if you so choose, can end the Reaper threat, and be shown, in a hospital bed, with his LI and crew or whatever, definitively surviving?

I'm fine with downer endings, tragic deaths, but if you didn't play the game that way, then it really feels shoe-horned. My opinion is that destroy was more or less sabotaged with the death of EDI and the Geth, and the Relay/Citadel damage to dissuade people from it, and the theme was made so people would go for Hudson and SuperMac's pet ending.

ME is a game that you can play in different ways. I played it, interpreting it as this big game of how the strengths of galactic unity and the bonds of friendship, love, and camradery between the crew of the Normandy, and Shepard's own defining will and personality could win the day over the Reapers. I can pretty much play that up until Cronos in ME3. Then the game just spirals into darkness and unfeeling grimness. And it's just topped off with the ending.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 18 mars 2013 - 03:59 .


#136
Kais Endac

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HolyAvenger wrote...

^I get it. People wanted a happier ending.

I just don't agree that BioWare should have delivered one. Just my $0.02. We'll have to agree to disagree.


[From above post]
I should note that while I'm definatly not a fan of the endings, at this stage they should not be changed because
1) it's too late in the game an will not help any
2) it is ultimately bioware's game and artistic integrity aside the EC fixed most peoples issues and any futher "fixes" will be a waste of time and money and as a fan of bioware games I would rather see it invested in their next games (can't wait to play DA:I)

I still play ME3 alot bioware went in new directions that I enjoyed even the darker themes of the game, the endings are not as important (to me) as I have made out and definitely they do not ruin the game. I also don't think that Bioware should have delievered a happy ending because the fans demanded it(that would have just caused all sorts of problems).

What I do think is that there should have been at least one more upbeat ending while retaining the darker tone of the game without specualtion (well uness there is a planned sequel).

That said I will agree to disagree, I think though that the differenece of opinions and various interpretations of the themes/endings/tone is one of the strength's of the game it shows people are truly invested in the universe and actually take something away from it.

Modifié par Kais Endac, 18 mars 2013 - 03:59 .


#137
Clayless

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crimzontearz wrote...

-Snip-
 
Preston is the lead designer


So someone whose not in the know said Shepard lives, but not survives, months before they clarify that it could also be his last breath?

So no new information in other words.

#138
HolyAvenger

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

^I get it. People wanted a happier ending.

I just don't agree that BioWare should have delivered one. Just my $0.02. We'll have to agree to disagree.


Let's put it this way. BW promised a whole array of endings. Couldn't... shouldn't one of those endings be happy? 

I'm fine with downer endings, tragic deaths, but if you didn't play the game that way, then it really feels shoe-horned.

ME is a game that you can play in different ways. I played it, interpreting it as this big game of how the strengths of galactic unity and the bonds of friendship, love, and camradery between the crew of the Normandy, and Shepard's own defining will and personality could win the day over the Reapers. I can pretty much play that up until Cronos in ME3. Then the game just spirals into darkness and unfeeling grimness. And it's just topped off with the ending.


Nope. ME3 is unrelentingly dark, interspersed with moments of humour and hope. The start of the game is the subjugation of Earth, after all. The game doesn't spiral into darkness or grimness. It starts there and maintains that tone all the way through.

Yes, you can unite the galaxy and beat back the threat, but only at immense personal and universal cost. The endings fit that for mine. A happy ending, on the other hand, completely negates the rest of the game and tone it has set all the way through.

#139
Kais Endac

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HolyAvenger wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

^I get it. People wanted a happier ending.

I just don't agree that BioWare should have delivered one. Just my $0.02. We'll have to agree to disagree.


Let's put it this way. BW promised a whole array of endings. Couldn't... shouldn't one of those endings be happy? 

I'm fine with downer endings, tragic deaths, but if you didn't play the game that way, then it really feels shoe-horned.

ME is a game that you can play in different ways. I played it, interpreting it as this big game of how the strengths of galactic unity and the bonds of friendship, love, and camradery between the crew of the Normandy, and Shepard's own defining will and personality could win the day over the Reapers. I can pretty much play that up until Cronos in ME3. Then the game just spirals into darkness and unfeeling grimness. And it's just topped off with the ending.


Nope. ME3 is unrelentingly dark, interspersed with moments of humour and hope. The start of the game is the subjugation of Earth, after all. The game doesn't spiral into darkness or grimness. It starts there and maintains that tone all the way through.

Yes, you can unite the galaxy and beat back the threat, but only at immense personal and universal cost. The endings fit that for mine. A happy ending, on the other hand, completely negates the rest of the game and tone it has set all the way through.


That is only your interpretation and not what others may take away from the game. For me the game is dark but there is an underlying theme of hope, cooperation, putting past differeces aside to fight a greater enemy etc.

Also a happy ending does not negate anything, one that destroys the tone by disregarding the sacrifices and destuction does. An ending like one in return of the jedi would completly negates the theme behind the endings and the game. 

Modifié par Kais Endac, 18 mars 2013 - 04:05 .


#140
HolyAvenger

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Kais Endac wrote...


That is only your interpretation and not what others may take away from the game

Like I've said multiple times throughout this thread, of course! We're only sharing opinions here. I am simply stating why I personally do not like the concept of a happy ending, and did not want one from BioWare in the game.

#141
o Ventus

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ME3 is most certainly not "unrelentingly dark". You're deluding yourself if you honestly think that.

Curing the genophage and restoring hope to a dying species wasn't at all dark, and that's a major plot point.

Making peace between the geth and quarians, thus restoring the quarians to their home world wasn't dark, and that's also a major plot point.

#142
Reap_ii

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i always expected him to die for good in ME3. ive kept up with the series since the beginning and they have said it will end with a trilogy, and that it will also end Shepard's story. anyone familiar with the game from its inception should be aware of this. however, even many of those aware of this don't trust this because they simply don't trust Bioware, and justifiably so. him dying makes perfect sense to me.

#143
o Ventus

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Reap_ii wrote...

i always expected him to die for good in ME3. ive kept up with the series since the beginning and they have said it will end with a trilogy, and that it will also end Shepard's story. anyone familiar with the game from its inception should be aware of this. however, even many of those aware of this don't trust this because they simply don't trust Bioware, and justifiably so. him dying makes perfect sense to me.


In what way does "will end Shepard's story" equal "he's going to die"?

Sayig that the former leads to the latter is just retarded.

#144
HolyAvenger

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o Ventus wrote...

ME3 is most certainly not "unrelentingly dark". You're deluding yourself if you honestly think that.

Curing the genophage and restoring hope to a dying species wasn't at all dark, and that's a major plot point.

Making peace between the geth and quarians, thus restoring the quarians to their home world wasn't dark, and that's also a major plot point.

I guess you missed the bit where I said "interspersed with moments of humour and hope". Thanks for the selective quoting thoughImage IPB

#145
MassivelyEffective0730

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HolyAvenger wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

^I get it. People wanted a happier ending.

I just don't agree that BioWare should have delivered one. Just my $0.02. We'll have to agree to disagree.


Let's put it this way. BW promised a whole array of endings. Couldn't... shouldn't one of those endings be happy? 

I'm fine with downer endings, tragic deaths, but if you didn't play the game that way, then it really feels shoe-horned.

ME is a game that you can play in different ways. I played it, interpreting it as this big game of how the strengths of galactic unity and the bonds of friendship, love, and camradery between the crew of the Normandy, and Shepard's own defining will and personality could win the day over the Reapers. I can pretty much play that up until Cronos in ME3. Then the game just spirals into darkness and unfeeling grimness. And it's just topped off with the ending.


Nope. ME3 is unrelentingly dark, interspersed with moments of humour and hope. The start of the game is the subjugation of Earth, after all. The game doesn't spiral into darkness or grimness. It starts there and maintains that tone all the way through.

Yes, you can unite the galaxy and beat back the threat, but only at immense personal and universal cost. The endings fit that for mine. A happy ending, on the other hand, completely negates the rest of the game and tone it has set all the way through.


I never saw any of that in the trilogy. 

I payed my immense personal cost with the death's of Mordin, Ashley, Thane, and Legion. I killed Ashley myself, a former lover. The universal cost is there too, and it's staggering. But why does it have to remain so, up unto, and even after the ending? That's just bleak and depressing. 

Let's put it this way, I edited my post, read that.

#146
o Ventus

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HolyAvenger wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

ME3 is most certainly not "unrelentingly dark". You're deluding yourself if you honestly think that.

Curing the genophage and restoring hope to a dying species wasn't at all dark, and that's a major plot point.

Making peace between the geth and quarians, thus restoring the quarians to their home world wasn't dark, and that's also a major plot point.

I guess you missed the bit where I said "interspersed with moments of humour and hope". Thanks for the selective quoting thoughImage IPB


2 of the biggest plot points in the entire trilogy (not just ME3) ending in triumphant, upbeat manners is not "interspersing" anything.

#147
Reap_ii

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o Ventus wrote...

Reap_ii wrote...

i always expected him to die for good in ME3. ive kept up with the series since the beginning and they have said it will end with a trilogy, and that it will also end Shepard's story. anyone familiar with the game from its inception should be aware of this. however, even many of those aware of this don't trust this because they simply don't trust Bioware, and justifiably so. him dying makes perfect sense to me.


In what way does "will end Shepard's story" equal "he's going to die"?

Sayig that the former leads to the latter is just retarded.



its called drawing a conclusion.  its my conclusion, and certainly not retarded.  i have a "special needs" son, and i actually know what "retarded" looks like.  you probably do also, as you face it in the mirror.

#148
MassivelyEffective0730

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HolyAvenger wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

ME3 is most certainly not "unrelentingly dark". You're deluding yourself if you honestly think that.

Curing the genophage and restoring hope to a dying species wasn't at all dark, and that's a major plot point.

Making peace between the geth and quarians, thus restoring the quarians to their home world wasn't dark, and that's also a major plot point.

I guess you missed the bit where I said "interspersed with moments of humour and hope". Thanks for the selective quoting thoughImage IPB

Wow. Are you a troll or a flamer or something?

You'd be a really good lawyer. 

Do you know what interspersed means? You're post above made it seem like it you saw the game as grimdark for 90% of the game with the other elements making up just 10%. 

#149
o Ventus

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Reap_ii wrote...

its called drawing a conclusion.  its my conclusion, and certainly not retarded.


Yeah, it's drawing the aimplest possible conclusion from literally zero information. Kind of stupid.

i have a "special needs" son, and i actually know what "retarded" looks like.  you probably do also, as you face it in the mirror.


I wish I were as badass as you.

#150
HolyAvenger

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o Ventus wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

ME3 is most certainly not "unrelentingly dark". You're deluding yourself if you honestly think that.

Curing the genophage and restoring hope to a dying species wasn't at all dark, and that's a major plot point.

Making peace between the geth and quarians, thus restoring the quarians to their home world wasn't dark, and that's also a major plot point.

I guess you missed the bit where I said "interspersed with moments of humour and hope". Thanks for the selective quoting thoughImage IPB


2 of the biggest plot points in the entire trilogy (not just ME3) ending in triumphant, upbeat manners is not "interspersing" anything.

Contrasted against the falls of Earth, Palaven, Thessia etc., I think it is.


But you know, opinion.Image IPB