294 réponses à ce sujet

[Ridwan]

Yestare7 wrote...

To me , it works perfectly.

All thru-out the three games, Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers.
WHY change your mind at the last minute because an insane AI lies?

1. Control = tim's delusions
2. Synthesis = brat's idiotic plan
3. destroy = what we came here for!!

Destroy Reapers, do hospital time, have a big party!!
It's win/win.



Y

Yup, too bad about EDI and the Geth, that sucked.

[CronoDragoon]

Since I didn't know that Shepard would survive Destroy and picked it anyway, then no, survival did not factor into my ending decision.

[Sanunes]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
It's subjective for everyone. I'm not upset with the fact Shepard dies, or that there's a downer ending.

I'm upset because there's nothing but a downer ending.

Why can't we have a destroy ending that has a synthesis level of uplifting (I hate that ending, but it was intentionally made to be uplifting) with Shepard surviving? 

I think its all about how people look at the reasons behind certain actions.  I always expected destroying the Reapers would lead to EDI's "death" because she was based off of Reaper technology and the Geth seem to be the same for they advanced themselves based on Old-Machine code, the real question about the Geth is if Shepard didn't elevate them, would they have continued to exist because they didn't integrate the Old-Machine code?

My guess is that part of the problem with the decisions behind the endings is that the team worked together so closely for so long that they see a lot of the decisions the same way so there wasn't someone with a different viewpoint.

[Han Shot First]

MattFini wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

He dies in Destroy anyway, that was his last breath, I couldn't choose genocide just for that.

This is one of those things that blows my mind.

With all the visual information you get in the extended cut, it's staggering that people can simply choose to ignore all the cues and opt to believe Shep is choking out a dying breath. 

The ending is hardly Blade Runner. 

People who claim Shepard took his last breath in High EMS Destroy usually fall into one of two camps.

The first are Controllers and Synthesizers who are grasping at straws to justfy their end choice. They need Shepard to die in Destroy, so that they can say, "Well if Shepard dies anyway, I might as well save the Geth."

The second are the most bitter of anti-enders, who likewise need Shepard to die in High EMS Destroy so it fits with their accusation that none of ME3's endings were 'happy,' and that the player got screwed by Bioware in all of them.

Of course in order to believe that Shepard has taken his last breath, one has to stick his or her head in the sand and ignore the multiple cues in the Extended Cut implying the opposite. Then of course there is the Citadel DLC which goes a step further and foreshadows Shepard's survival in High EMS Destroy.

Shepard: Good enough for an ID?

Jack: Good enough so that if you're ever hurt, barely breathing, lying under a pile of rubble at the @ss end of this war, you're gonna have something that tells the galaxy that you belong to me!

Multiple LIs also have lines at the end of the DLC where they say they'll be waiting for Shepard after he beats the odds and defeats the Reapers.

And finally it requires ignoring that the very files for the breath scene cinematics are named "End03_Shepard_Alive_Male.bik" and "End03_Shepard_Alive_Female.bik."

Modifié par Han Shot First, 18 mars 2013 - 04:32 .

[o Ventus]

M25105 wrote...

Yup, too bad about EDI and the Geth, that sucked.

EDI is the only real casualty. The geth can be rebuilt to how we're before Rannoch.

[Auld Wulf]

@Reap_ii

I find the Destroy ending to be the most depressing and outright horrible of all the endings.

* The geth die after truly obtaining sapience. They don't even get the chance to do anything with it.

* EDI dies. Who gives a care about all the things she did for organics, eh?

* Joker is left without the only woman he's ever loved (and sans the cure to brittle bone disease that Synthesis gives). He's likely going to end up suicidally depressed.

* People augmented with technology (like biotics users) die.

* Depending on how it happens, quarians who've taken geth into their suits might die.

* The Alliance Infiltration Units die.

* And the big one... the thousands of civilisations contained within the Reapers die. We're blaming them for being mind-controlled by a control program, and killing them when their only crime was being mind-controlled.

All that death when choosing Synthesis or Control could avoid it. Synthesis and Control are far less depressing and horrible. Furthermore, in Synthesis/Control the peoples could finally be freed from Reaper form. Their minds, their knowledge, and their genetic code is stored within. So we'd be able to clone new bodies for them and allow them to be themselves again.

I think it's unconscionable to choose Destroy.

Paragon Shepard: The moment I start killing my friends, I become a murderer. I won't cross that line.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 18 mars 2013 - 04:35 .

[HolyAvenger]

Bester76 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

"Shape your own story" was never promised. That would be hell to write as a videogame.

What WAS promised, however, is a number of scenarios in which the player is free to mold the experience to their liking (within the alloted parameters, of course). The game(s) offers plenty of this.

"Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any other, where the decisions you make COMPLETELY SHAPE your EXPERIENCE and OUTCOME."

Whilst I agree that being able to totally shape the entire story is unrealistic, hence the canon narrative often over-riding your decisions, the ending, or the outcome, was specifically flouted as something that could be COMPLETELY determined by the player. It isn't. I wanted to question Starbrat's circular logic, but nope, not possible.  When the Catalyst acknowledges that its solution will no longer work, and that it needs you to effect the change, you have it over a barrel. Instead of exploring that, you surrender to its faulty logic. 

This is my issue with the endings. Not whether its happy or not.

[AlanC9]

Sanunes wrote...

My guess is that part of the problem with the decisions behind the endings is that the team worked together so closely for so long that they see a lot of the decisions the same way so there wasn't someone with a different viewpoint.

I think you're on to something there. From pre-EC dev posts, tweets, etc., I got the impression that a lot of fan interpretations came as real surprises to the devs.

I was surprised myself quite a few times.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 mars 2013 - 04:38 .

[CronoDragoon]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Reap_ii

I find the Destroy ending to be the most depressing and outright horrible of all the endings.

* The geth die after truly obtaining sapience. They don't even get the chance to do anything with it.

* EDI dies. Who gives a care about all the things she did for organics, eh?

Depressing indeed.

* Joker is left without the only woman he's ever loved (and sans the cure to brittle bone disease that Synthesis gives). He's likely going to end up suicidally depressed.

Not a legitimate reason.

* People augmented with technology (like biotics users) die.

* Depending on how it happens, quarians who've taken geth into their suits might die.

Lol no. If Shepard - who is half synthetic - survives, then no.

* And the big one... the thousands of civilisations contained within the Reapers die. We're blaming them for being mind-controlled by a control program, and killing them when their only crime was being mind-controlled.

Depends whether or not you think civilizations are actually stored in the Reapers. I've only seen evidence of synthetics who conceive of themselves as synthetics infused with genetic goo.

[Kais Endac]

Han Shot First wrote...

People who claim Shepard took his last breath in High EMS Destroy usually fall into one of two camps.

The first are Controllers and Synthesizers who are grasping at straws to justfy their end choice. They need Shepard to die in Destroy, so that they can say, "Well if Shepard dies anyway, I might as well save the Geth."

The second are the most bitter of anti-enders, who likewise need Shepard to die in High EMS Destroy so it fits with their accusation that none of ME3's endings were 'happy,' and that the player got screwed by Bioware in all of them.

Of course in order to believe that Shepard has taken his last breath, one has to stick his or her head in the sand and ignore the multiple cues in the Extended Cut implying the opposite. Then of course there is the Citadel DLC which goes a step further and foreshadows Shepard's survival in High EMS Destroy.

Shepard: Good enough for an ID?

Jack: Good enough so that if you're ever hurt, barely breathing, lying under a pile of rubble at the @ss end of this war, you're gonna have something that tells the galaxy that you belong to me!

Multiple LIs also have lines at the end of the DLC where they say they'll be waiting for Shepard after he beats the odds and defeats the Reapers.

And finally it requires ignoring that the very files for the breath scene cinematics are named "End03_Shepard_Alive_Male.bik" and "End03_Shepard_Alive_Female.bik."

It is odd that people think he dies

I would say that the fact that such a scene is included in the first place shows that he survives, if he simply died they would have left the high ems destroy scene the same as low ems. It would be pointeless adition to the game and to me it sounded like the gasp of breath that someone makes after being deprived of air, not the last exhale as he dies. But then again I could be looking too much into it.

Modifié par Kais Endac, 18 mars 2013 - 04:39 .

[Philosophaster]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Not dead. There's continuity of identity. Shepalyst says "The man/woman I once was". Pretty clear to me, rather similar to me saying "the child I once was". Shepard has grown out of his/her human shell to become something greater. Ascended, not dead.

"Through his death, I was created."

Doesn't get any more plain than that. Shepard died, and this new AI with his memories was created. All because Shepard didn't want to simply give orders to the Catalyst.

Yet again, the Shepalyst says "The man/woman I once was." I think the line between life and death is intentionally blurred here. If you took all of Shepard's thoughts and memories and implanted them in a clone body after destroying the original, wouldn't the result be Shepard? As I see it, it would, for all intents and purposes. The only uncertainty is how a synthetic body will affect things.

As for the original question: no, it isn't a deal breaker. I make the decision for the future of the galaxy. Shepard's death is irrelevant. Also, if I want, I can always create a post-ending scenario where they come back.

Interesting thought. Suppose you took all of Shepard's thoughts and memories and implanted them in a clone body before destroying the original, wouldn't the result be Shepard? Now we have two legitimate Shepards, right? Or is the original Shepard the only legitimate one? Is the destruction of the original Shepard required to establish the Shepard copy as the legitimate one? If so, who just  died? (If you read that, then thank you for tolerating the pseudo-philosophy)

It would seem to me that Shepard dying in Synthesis is one of the canon prices for having made the decision. For the record, I have only a few qualms with Synthesis, not all that dissimilar from my feelings concerning the Destruction and Control options. I am not trying to bash Synthesis and I have enjoyed reading through your Synthesis Compendium in the past. That being said, bringing Shepard back in Synthesis is tantamount to handwaving the deaths of synthetics and the damaging of the relay system in Destruction. While admirable, it would seem you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Modifié par inconsiderate rick, 18 mars 2013 - 04:42 .

[crimzontearz]

darkway1 wrote...

Bioware can redeem themselves by simply making an happy option.........why wouldn't they want to make their product even better.???

hubris and art

[HiddenInWar]

In the destroy ending, we see Zaeed sitting on a lawn chair toasting to victory. When I look at that scene now, it's sort of like an honor to Robin's memory...

[KoorahUK]

Fixers0 wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Considering all those actions stop the Reaper threat, then yeah.

Considering, Shepard has no guarantee that performing either action will end the Reaper threat, not Realy.

Remind me who it was that told Shepard shooting the tube would Destroy the Reapers?

[Han Shot First]

Auld Wulf wrote...

* People augmented with technology (like biotics users) die.

That may be your personal head canon but it certainly does not happen in the game.

In the Destroy epilogue your biotic squadmates are still very much alive and well.

Depending on how it happens, quarians who've taken geth into their suits might die.

Also head canon.

The Quarians are seen alive and well in the Destroy epilogue.

The Alliance Infiltration Units die.

Also head canon. I'm noticing a trend.

And the big one... the thousands of civilisations contained within the Reapers die. We're blaming them for being mind-controlled by a control program, and killing them when their only crime was being mind-controlled.

Those civilizations died when they were turned into Reapers. The Reapers are an abomination and killing them is a mercy that frees any organic minds that might be trapped within.

All that death when choosing Synthesis or Control could avoid it. Synthesis and Control are far less depressing and horrible. Furthermore, in Synthesis/Control the peoples could finally be freed from Reaper form. Their minds, their knowledge, and their genetic code is stored within. So we'd be able to clone new bodies for them and allow them to be themselves again.

I think it's unconscionable to choose Destroy.

Destroy is the only ending where the Reaper fleet is destroyed, thus it is the only ending that truly accomplishes Shepard's mission. It is the only ending that can guarantee with absolute certainty, that galactic civilization and the survival of sapient organic life will never again be threatened by the Reapers.

Synthesis and Control are unconscionable in that they kick the can down the road for future generations to worry about, and in that the leave an A.I. overlord in charge of the galaxy's fate. How can it be guaranteed that either version of the Catalyst will not one day reach the conclusion that organic sapient life once again needs to be destroyed? Synthesis is perhaps the worst of the two in that it leaves the original Catalyst, the one fully responsible for the annihilation of countless civilizations, firmly in control of the galaxy's fate.

And then of course with Synthesis you also have Shepard deciding to force every sapient organic being in the galaxy to become partially Synthetic, altering the very nature of life. It is monstrous.

[Kais Endac]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Reap_ii

I find the Destroy ending to be the most depressing and outright horrible of all the endings.

* The geth die after truly obtaining sapience. They don't even get the chance to do anything with it.

* EDI dies. Who gives a care about all the things she did for organics, eh?

* Joker is left without the only woman he's ever loved (and sans the cure to brittle bone disease that Synthesis gives). He's likely going to end up suicidally depressed.

* People augmented with technology (like biotics users) die.

* Depending on how it happens, quarians who've taken geth into their suits might die.

* The Alliance Infiltration Units die.

* And the big one... the thousands of civilisations contained within the Reapers die. We're blaming them for being mind-controlled by a control program, and killing them when their only crime was being mind-controlled.

All that death when choosing Synthesis or Control could avoid it. Synthesis and Control are far less depressing and horrible. Furthermore, in Synthesis/Control the peoples could finally be freed from Reaper form. Their minds, their knowledge, and their genetic code is stored within. So we'd be able to clone new bodies for them and allow them to be themselves again.

I think it's unconscionable to choose Destroy.

Paragon Shepard: The moment I start killing my friends, I become a murderer. I won't cross that line.

Aren't you looking too deep into the consquences, there are a variety of biotics alive after destroy as you see them in the ending slideshow, also since Shepard himself doens't die I would say others with augmentations would live too. The geth in the suits do nothing more than mimic viruses and are not an integral part of the suit.

However since the endings are quite ambiguous showing only major characters and societies I suppose it is possible that all those things happen kinda depressing tho.

I think that the only confirmed casuaties of destory are the Geth and EDI anyone else is either speculation or headcanon.

Modifié par Kais Endac, 18 mars 2013 - 04:53 .

[crimzontearz]

If all biotics would die then uh....why are Asari shown alive? Get this, I just saw the destroy wave hit a whole platoon of them and none of them even FLINCHED....jacob, jack and miri also live and are shown in sliders

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dr. Megaverse wrote...

This would have been ok with me for Shep not making it...

I'd really prefer this was how things had gone...

Actually, both of those are for his survival.

*edit* nevermind. I was wrong. That'd be too heartbreaking for me.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 18 mars 2013 - 04:55 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Everybody, Auld Wulf is a known flamer, and a known troll.

Please do not bait him.

[Reap_ii]

o Ventus wrote...

Reap_ii wrote...
so you can give it, but you cant take it?    ok kid, ill let you off the hook since you asked so nicely.  have a nice day. 

You'll have to point me to where I personally attacked you. I won't blame you if you can't find it.

page 6.  you said an idea i had was "just retarded".  that is being rude without provocation.  antisocial at the very least, and i interpreted it to be quite rude and insulting. 

btw, the idea i had based on the information received from Bioware turned out to be correct, because he does infact die, unless you have high EMS and choose destroy.  all other endings lead to his death.  its not "just retarded" its actually an educated conclusion that turns out to be a correct conclusion. 

[Argolas]

Auld Wulf wrote...


* The geth die after truly obtaining sapience. They don't even get the chance to do anything with it.

* EDI dies. Who gives a care about all the things she did for organics, eh?

* Joker is left without the only woman he's ever loved (and sans the cure to brittle bone disease that Synthesis gives). He's likely going to end up suicidally depressed.

I disagree with everything below, but those three are fair points, except the consequences for Joker are just headcanon, but unfortunately not implausible.

EDIT: Oh yes, also except the cure for his bone disease. That is headcanon as well.

Modifié par Argolas, 18 mars 2013 - 05:04 .

[Xilizhra]

Those civilizations died when they were turned into Reapers. The Reapers are an abomination and killing them is a mercy that frees any organic minds that might be trapped within.

There's no such thing as an abomination. In any case, the Reapers should be able to decide this for themselves.

Destroy is the only ending where the Reaper fleet is destroyed, thus it is the only ending that truly accomplishes Shepard's mission. It is the only ending that can guarantee with absolute certainty, that galactic civilization and the survival of sapient organic life will never again be threatened by the Reapers.

But leaves life to be threatened by everything else, including synthetic uprisings. And murders every last synthetic currently in existence, don't forget. Organic life is no more important than synthetic.

Synthesis and Control are unconscionable in that they kick the can down the road for future generations to worry about, and in that the leave an A.I. overlord in charge of the galaxy's fate. How can it be guaranteed that either version of the Catalyst will not one day reach the conclusion that organic sapient life once again needs to be destroyed? Synthesis is perhaps the worst of the two in that it leaves the original Catalyst, the one fully responsible for the annihilation of countless civilizations, firmly in control of the galaxy's fate.

I can't speak as much for Synthesis, but Control will also leave the galaxy firmly protected from future threats. And I guarantee it because it's my Shepard, I play her, and I know that she won't fall in that manner.

[cerberus1701]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Reap_ii

I find the Destroy ending to be the most depressing and outright horrible of all the endings.

* The geth die after truly obtaining sapience. They don't even get the chance to do anything with it.

* EDI dies. Who gives a care about all the things she did for organics, eh?

* Joker is left without the only woman he's ever loved (and sans the cure to brittle bone disease that Synthesis gives). He's likely going to end up suicidally depressed.

* People augmented with technology (like biotics users) die.

* Depending on how it happens, quarians who've taken geth into their suits might die.

* The Alliance Infiltration Units die.

* And the big one... the thousands of civilisations contained within the Reapers die. We're blaming them for being mind-controlled by a control program, and killing them when their only crime was being mind-controlled.

All that death when choosing Synthesis or Control could avoid it. Synthesis and Control are far less depressing and horrible. Furthermore, in Synthesis/Control the peoples could finally be freed from Reaper form. Their minds, their knowledge, and their genetic code is stored within. So we'd be able to clone new bodies for them and allow them to be themselves again.

I think it's unconscionable to choose Destroy.

Paragon Shepard: The moment I start killing my friends, I become a murderer. I won't cross that line.

* They gain sentience and use it to fight the Reapers KNOWING they all may die. (I love this perpetual notion that "Oh, they are self-aware, but Shep is now somehow dragging them to the battle.")

* EDI says flat out she's willing to die to end the Reapers.

* I should condemn myself just to become the next murdering Catalyst after my mind snaps in a few thousand years because I can't relate to other human beings any more or rape every OTHER sapient being in he galaxy for the sake of Joker???

The guy who killed me because he believed he could "save" a broken in half ship? If I could have left him to die in 2 I easily would have.

This guy that I honestly believe only really cares about EDI because she's a feminine extension of the ship he has a fetishistic attachment to?

And really, yeah....poor baby with his brittle bones. I have Cerebral Palsy in real life and if you tried to talk to me in that manner that just drips pity and emotional blackmail I'd punch you. I'd tell you you were an idiot for choosing Control and sure as hell not to do it for my sake because this destroyer of galaxies WANTS you to choose it.

(Hint: Things the bad guy wants you to do are probably not the right things.)

And if I knew you were going Synthesis , I'd shoot you myself. Shepard has no right to decide Synthesis for anyone but himself.

In short, if Joker can't grow the ever loving hell up and one day, after grieving can't bring himself to seek out another woman, then maybe he just DOES need to eat a Phalanx.

* Who says that augmented people die? The breathing Shepard in the rubble has dismissed your claim.

* Quarians dying? Who says? Geth stopping the augmentation of Quarian immune systems does not equal death.

* That the Alliance units die is wholly irrelevant.

* The culled civilizations? You have NO evidence that they have any sort of life the way they are. In fact, the Catalyst exists as Slavemaster and would like you to take its place in Control. He says so.

Clone new bodies? How do you filter my Reaper goo from yours when combined with, say 6 billion others? Finding a thumbtack floating somewhere in the galaxy would cause less grief.

* And I think it's unconscionable to choose anything BUT.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

snip

There's no such thing as an abomination. In any case, the Reapers should be able to decide this for themselves.

snip

But leaves life to be threatened by everything else, including synthetic uprisings. And murders every last synthetic currently in existence, don't forget. Organic life is no more important than synthetic.

snip

I can't speak as much for Synthesis, but Control will also leave the galaxy firmly protected from future threats. And I guarantee it because it's my Shepard, I play her, and I know that she won't fall in that manner.

The same Reapers who decided that we needed to be annihilated to serve the catalysts experiment with the cycles? No. The Reapers have a voice. It is one of destruction and carnage. They made their voice clear with Sovereign in ME1. It is a voice that needs to be silenced forever.

Life will always be threatened. Are you saying that's not the case with control and synthesis? It's always a possibility. I'd rather face those than face the destructive future the Reapers plan for us. And sure, synthetics aren't any more important than organics, or vice versa. Since they're all equal, I'd rather sacrifce all the synthetics since there aren't as many of them as organics. To stop the Reapers. You're listening to the Catalyst too much. It has nothing of value or worth to say. It's going to try to justify it's existence, and the existence of the Reapers. Look at why it was created. It was created by a highly narcissistic and arrogant race to stop said races slaves from killing each other so that the denizens of the race could get more vain self-glorification to their existence.

I don't believe you. I don't know your Shepard, and I don't trust your Shepard. I don't trust my own Shepard. Even if I was as Paragon as they come, I wouldn't trust Shepard. Machine Logic and intelligence takes over. You lose your connection to your humanity. What was unacceptable before is now on the table, and vice versa. 

[cerberus1701]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

snip

There's no such thing as an abomination. In any case, the Reapers should be able to decide this for themselves.

snip

But leaves life to be threatened by everything else, including synthetic uprisings. And murders every last synthetic currently in existence, don't forget. Organic life is no more important than synthetic.

snip

I can't speak as much for Synthesis, but Control will also leave the galaxy firmly protected from future threats. And I guarantee it because it's my Shepard, I play her, and I know that she won't fall in that manner.

The same Reapers who decided that we needed to be annihilated to serve the catalysts experiment with the cycles? No. The Reapers have a voice. It is one of destruction and carnage. They made their voice clear with Sovereign in ME1. It is a voice that needs to be silenced forever.

Life will always be threatened. Are you saying that's not the case with control and synthesis? It's always a possibility. I'd rather face those than face the destructive future the Reapers plan for us. And sure, synthetics aren't any more important than organics, or vice versa. Since they're all equal, I'd rather sacrifce all the synthetics since there aren't as many of them as organics. To stop the Reapers. You're listening to the Catalyst too much. It has nothing of value or worth to say. It's going to try to justify it's existence, and the existence of the Reapers. Look at why it was created. It was created by a highly narcissistic and arrogant race to stop said races slaves from killing each other so that the denizens of the race could get more vain self-glorification to their existence.

I don't believe you. I don't know your Shepard, and I don't trust your Shepard. I don't trust my own Shepard. Even if I was as Paragon as they come, I wouldn't trust Shepard. Machine Logic and intelligence takes over. You lose your connection to your humanity. What was unacceptable before is now on the table, and vice versa. 

This ^^^