294 réponses à ce sujet

[Robhuzz]

I think I could've at least taken control seriously if Shepard had lived through it. I do not know if I would've picked it over destroy as I dislike the idea of fighting against TIM's machinations for the entire game and ultimately going his route in the end. Better destroy them and get it over with.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 18 mars 2013 - 05:22 .

[KoorahUK]

Xilizhra wrote...

I can't speak as much for Synthesis, but Control will also leave the galaxy firmly protected from future threats. And I guarantee it because it's my Shepard, I play her, and I know that she won't fall in that manner.

This is the important bit when we have all these debates about the ending. Whether any ending is something "Shepard would do" is completely subjective. My Shepard views things differently to other Shepards. Hell, my Paragon Shep would never pick Destroy, my Renegade Shep wouldn't pick anything else. 

There is no 'unthinkable' or 'correct' answer. 

As for the OP, personally if Shep survived everything I think that would be a cop out. Sheps death is not a deal breaker for me, I choose the endings I think my Shep would choose. Nearly all my Sheps don''t consider their own life is above those they are fighting to save so self-preservation is not an issue, and as much as I enjoyed the fist-pounding victory in ME2, I also apprciate a more tragic end to a grand tale.

[Zagardal]

KoorahUK wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Considering all those actions stop the Reaper threat, then yeah.

Considering, Shepard has no guarantee that performing either action will end the Reaper threat, not Realy.

Remind me who it was that told Shepard shooting the tube would Destroy the Reapers?

the starbrat, who we really have no reason to trust in the first place

[KoorahUK]

Zagardal wrote...

KoorahUK wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Considering all those actions stop the Reaper threat, then yeah.

Considering, Shepard has no guarantee that performing either action will end the Reaper threat, not Realy.

Remind me who it was that told Shepard shooting the tube would Destroy the Reapers?

the starbrat, who we really have no reason to trust in the first place

Exactly. Destroy is no more reliable than Control or Synthesis. For all we know, Chooting the tube destroys any chance we have of beating the Reapers.

Modifié par KoorahUK, 18 mars 2013 - 05:32 .

[cerberus1701]

Zagardal wrote...

KoorahUK wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Considering all those actions stop the Reaper threat, then yeah.

Considering, Shepard has no guarantee that performing either action will end the Reaper threat, not Realy.

Remind me who it was that told Shepard shooting the tube would Destroy the Reapers?

the starbrat, who we really have no reason to trust in the first place

Given the fact that he's totally cool with me picking Synthesis and Control and talks of the awesome of both and the best he can do when it comes to Destroy is say "Edi and the Geth will die and this will all happen again anyway. (i.e. play on Shep's emotional attachments) to try to get him to not shoot the tube is plenty of argument to shoot the tube.

[Jukaga]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

@OP

The problem is is that we can't prove it's not the clone that survived. The clone was wearing N7 armour, and Shepard most likely isn't, so it's even more likely that the clone survives in Destroy.

weapons grade head canon.

If you want to delude yourself, then yes.

1. The clone's body is never found.
2. The clone wears N7 armour.
3. Most Shepard characters won't wear N7 armour because other armour has better stats.

This is all canon. Please think about it instead of snapping back. Now...

4. The Citadel explodes violently, the last time Shepard was in an exploding space structure most of her body had to be rebuilt by Cerberus.
5. "Shepard" in N7 armour is shown breathing. Somehow unharmed.

Now, again... let it sit. Think on it. Just... let it percolate.

Tell me again how this is headcanon?

You are taking engine limitations and writing headcanon out of it. It is irrelevant what armour you wore to the citadel: look at 75% of the other cutscenes in the game with you wielding an avenger and default pistol no matter your equipped gear. The clone is clearly killed at the end of the DLC.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Jukaga wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

@OP

The problem is is that we can't prove it's not the clone that survived. The clone was wearing N7 armour, and Shepard most likely isn't, so it's even more likely that the clone survives in Destroy.

weapons grade head canon.

If you want to delude yourself, then yes.

1. The clone's body is never found.
2. The clone wears N7 armour.
3. Most Shepard characters won't wear N7 armour because other armour has better stats.

This is all canon. Please think about it instead of snapping back. Now...

4. The Citadel explodes violently, the last time Shepard was in an exploding space structure most of her body had to be rebuilt by Cerberus.
5. "Shepard" in N7 armour is shown breathing. Somehow unharmed.

Now, again... let it sit. Think on it. Just... let it percolate.

Tell me again how this is headcanon?

You are taking engine limitations and writing headcanon out of it. It is irrelevant what armour you wore to the citadel: look at 75% of the other cutscenes in the game with you wielding an avenger and default pistol no matter your equipped gear. The clone is clearly killed at the end of the DLC.

lol at Auld Wulf.

Looks like a nuclear firing head cannon here.

[Han Shot First]

Xilizhra wrote...

Those civilizations died when they were turned into Reapers. The Reapers are an abomination and killing them is a mercy that frees any organic minds that might be trapped within.

There's no such thing as an abomination. In any case, the Reapers should be able to decide this for themselves.

The Reapers are an abomination. The people used to create them were robbed of their individuality, their freedom, their free will, and their lives.

The annihilation of countless civilizations and the attempted annihilation of humanity and its alien allies, also abbrogates any 'right' the Reapers may have otherwise had to determine their own fate.

There also isn't anything in the lore to suggest that any organic minds trapped within could somehow be seperated from the AI processes and redeamed or saved. The process that turned organics into Reapers, appears permanent.

Xilizhra wrote...

 Destroy is the only ending where the Reaper fleet is destroyed, thus it is the only ending that truly accomplishes Shepard's mission. It is the only ending that can guarantee with absolute certainty, that galactic civilization and the survival of sapient organic life will never again be threatened by the Reapers.

But leaves life to be threatened by everything else, including synthetic uprisings. And murders every last synthetic currently in existence, don't forget. Organic life is no more important than synthetic.

There is no entity in the galaxy more threatening the Reapers. In all of the galaxy's wars, mass extinction never loomed for the civilizations of the galaxy until the Reapers invaded. The galaxy is a far more dangerous place with the Reapers, than without them.

As for the Geth, they are not murdered. Murder requires intent, and the intent of destroy is never to annihilate the Geth. It occurs as an unitended consequence of destroying the Reapers. It is a horrifying example of collateral damage, but it isn't murder or genocide.

Also the destruction of the Reapers, even it it comes at the cost of the Geth, constitutes military necessity. No single
'species' is worth more than the continued existence of galactic civilization, and Destroy is the only ending which guarantees that. Control and Synthesis pose too great a risk that the Cayalyst or Catalyst 2.0 will one day determine that the space faring civilizations need once again to be destroyed. An armistice with the Reapers is too great a gamble with the galaxy's future. Nothing less than total victory in the Reaper War will suffice, and in that Destroy is the only ending that delivers.

"Military necessity is a legal concept used in international humanitarian law (IHL) as part of the legal justification for attacks on legitimate military targets that may have adverse, even terrible, consequences for civilians and civilian objects. It means that military forces in planning military actions are permitted to take into account the practical requirements of a military situation at any given moment and the imperatives of winning. The concept of military necessity acknowledges that even under the laws of war, winning the war or battle is a legitimate consideration, though it must be put alongside other considerations of IHL."

http://www.crimesofw...tary-necessity/

Xilizhra wrote...

Synthesis and Control are unconscionable in that they kick the can down the road for future generations to worry about, and in that the leave an A.I. overlord in charge of the galaxy's fate. How can it be guaranteed that either version of the Catalyst will not one day reach the conclusion that organic sapient life once again needs to be destroyed? Synthesis is perhaps the worst of the two in that it leaves the original Catalyst, the one fully responsible for the annihilation of countless civilizations, firmly in control of the galaxy's fate.

I can't speak as much for Synthesis, but Control will also leave the galaxy firmly protected from future threats. And I guarantee it because it's my Shepard, I play her, and I know that she won't fall in that manner.

The Control Catalyst isn't really Shepard.

The Catalyst tells Shepard as much. Shepard dies in Control, and an A.I. entity mimicing Shepard's personality assumes control over the Reapers.

But even if Shepard's mind was somehow merged with A.I. processes to become the new Catalyst, it still wouldn't be Shepard. Not truly. After all when the Reapers are created, they are created from organic minds that had once raged against their own destruction. Once becoming Reapers however, they take part in the destruction of their own species and countless others. Had the Human Reaper been completed it would have gleefully taken part in the destruction of the galactic civlization and the annihilation of humanity, even if some of those organic minds were Chakwas, and Kelly Chambers, and any other crewmen from the Normandy SR2 that may have died. 

Can it really be guaranteed that Catalyst 2.0 won't one day reach the same conclusions as the Catalyst it replaced?

[Archonsg]

KoorahUK wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I can't speak as much for Synthesis, but Control will also leave the galaxy firmly protected from future threats. And I guarantee it because it's my Shepard, I play her, and I know that she won't fall in that manner.

This is the important bit when we have all these debates about the ending. Whether any ending is something "Shepard would do" is completely subjective. My Shepard views things differently to other Shepards. Hell, my Paragon Shep would never pick Destroy, my Renegade Shep wouldn't pick anything else. 

There is no 'unthinkable' or 'correct' answer. 

As for the OP, personally if Shep survived everything I think that would be a cop out. Sheps death is not a deal breaker for me, I choose the endings I think my Shep would choose. Nearly all my Sheps don''t consider their own life is above those they are fighting to save so self-preservation is not an issue, and as much as I enjoyed the fist-pounding victory in ME2, I also apprciate a more tragic end to a grand tale.

That's just it.
The entity that was born from Shepard's Destruction *is not Shepard* but a VI / AI coded and buit by the Catalyst.
For all you know, it could very well be the Catalyst with a "Shepard Personality" overlay.

*Your Shepard* is gone the moment you decided to grab those handles and fry yourself.

[Xilizhra]

The Reapers are an abomination. The people used to create them were robbed of their individuality, their freedom, their free will, and their lives.

The annihilation of countless civilizations and the attempted annihilation of humanity and its alien allies, also abbrogates any 'right' the Reapers may have otherwise had to determine their own fate.

There also isn't anything in the lore to suggest that any organic minds trapped within could somehow be seperated from the AI processes and redeamed or saved. The process that turned organics into Reapers, appears permanent.

The Reapers were under mind control the entire time; none of their actions were their own choice. They shouldn't be killed out of hand.

There is no entity in the galaxy more threatening the Reapers. In all of the galaxy's wars, mass extinction never loomed for the civilizations of the galaxy until the Reapers invaded. The galaxy is a far more dangerous place with the Reapers, than without them.

Far safer when the Reapers are on the defensive, which I will ensure that they will be.

As for the Geth, they are not murdered. Murder requires intent, and the intent of destroy is never to annihilate the Geth. It occurs as an unitended consequence of destroying the Reapers. It is a horrifying example of collateral damage, but it isn't murder or genocide.

Semantic whining to justify atrocity. It means nothing. You made a deliberate choice knowing that it would kill them all; it was indeed genocide.

Also the destruction of the Reapers, even it it comes at the cost of the Geth, constitutes military necessity. No single
'species' is worth more than the continued existence of galactic civilization, and Destroy is the only ending which guarantees that. Control and Synthesis pose too great a risk that the Cayalyst or Catalyst 2.0 will one day determine that the space faring civilizations need once again to be destroyed. An armistice with the Reapers is too great a gamble with the galaxy's future. Nothing less than total victory in the Reaper War will suffice, and in that Destroy is the only ending that delivers.

The galaxy will continue to exist in all three endings. Wiping out synthetics is not military necessity because you can win in two other ways, it's just your own paranoia leading you to ensure that other people are sacrificed for your precious organic status quo.

The Catalyst tells Shepard as much. Shepard dies in Control, and an A.I. entity mimicing Shepard's personality assumes control over the Reapers.

No. There's continuation of consciousness and identity. The format is different, but the persona has transferred and is the same, just vastly expanded.

But even if Shepard's mind was somehow merged with A.I. processes to become the new Catalyst, it still wouldn't be Shepard. Not truly. After all when the Reapers are created, they are created from organic minds that had once raged against their own destruction. Once becoming Reapers however, they take part in the destruction of their own species and countless others. Had the Human Reaper been completed it would have gleefully taken part in the destruction of the galactic civlization and the annihilation of humanity, even if some of those organic minds were Chakwas, and Kelly Chambers, and any other crewmen from the Normandy SR2 that may have died.

Mind control originating from the Catalyst; the Catalyst itself was not controlled by that, and as I am the Catalyst, nor will I be.

Can it really be guaranteed that Catalyst 2.0 won't one day reach the same conclusions as the Catalyst it replaced?

Yes.

[Yestare7]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Everybody, Auld Wulf is a known flamer, and a known troll.

Please do not bait him.

I strongly second this. Learned this morning.




Y

[madzilla84]

I'll admit I choose destroy on my main Shep so she can live. I don't imagine *she* expects to live through any of the choices - she doesn't know that's the option she lives through - but that's why *I* choose it. I also know that particular Shepard would pick it anyway, but that definitely seals the deal. It's important to my enjoyment of the series that she live - if there were no way at all to save Shepard, I'd be beyond sad and probably would never be able to replay the series.

That said, for other Shepards I choose the other options as I do find aspects of them interesting - but never for my main Shep. I want her to live!

[Fixers0]

KoorahUK wrote...

Zagardal wrote...

KoorahUK wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Considering all those actions stop the Reaper threat, then yeah.

Considering, Shepard has no guarantee that performing either action will end the Reaper threat, not Realy.

Remind me who it was that told Shepard shooting the tube would Destroy the Reapers?

the starbrat, who we really have no reason to trust in the first place

Exactly. Destroy is no more reliable than Control or Synthesis. For all we know, Chooting the tube destroys any chance we have of beating the Reapers.

Indeed, which is why these endings are garbage.

[Massa FX]

No-one can gaurntee AI Shepard's actions. Its not possible. A machine uses logic. Catalyst 1.0 came to a ridiculous conclusion after centuries of failure to unite organics and synthetics. Catalyst 2.0 will do the same, even with Shepard's memories tempering her thought processing.

The galaxy is doomed. Just a ticking time bomb.

All 4 endings doom the galaxy... its why we all feel hopeless and pissed off.

Really, to argue for or against s**tty choices is silly. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong.

THERE IS NO RIGHT SOLUTION.

[CaIIisto]

Every possible way of stopping the Reapers in this cycle involves trusting starbrat.

Genius.

[Dr_Extrem]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Reap_ii

I find the Destroy ending to be the most depressing and outright horrible of all the endings.

* The geth die after truly obtaining sapience. They don't even get the chance to do anything with it.

* EDI dies. Who gives a care about all the things she did for organics, eh?

* Joker is left without the only woman he's ever loved (and sans the cure to brittle bone disease that Synthesis gives). He's likely going to end up suicidally depressed.

* People augmented with technology (like biotics users) die.

* Depending on how it happens, quarians who've taken geth into their suits might die.

* The Alliance Infiltration Units die.

* And the big one... the thousands of civilisations contained within the Reapers die. We're blaming them for being mind-controlled by a control program, and killing them when their only crime was being mind-controlled.

All that death when choosing Synthesis or Control could avoid it. Synthesis and Control are far less depressing and horrible. Furthermore, in Synthesis/Control the peoples could finally be freed from Reaper form. Their minds, their knowledge, and their genetic code is stored within. So we'd be able to clone new bodies for them and allow them to be themselves again.

I think it's unconscionable to choose Destroy.

Paragon Shepard: The moment I start killing my friends, I become a murderer. I won't cross that line.

this headcanon reaches critical mass soon.

where is my bunker ... i need a stasis pod.

[Jukaga]

Genocide needs genes. Geth and EDI have none, ergo no genocide. They were acceptable casualties of war, and if you guide EDI to that morality she would be more than happy to sacrifice herself to destroy all the reapers. As for the Geth, they showed their true colours when Legion agreed that they valued existence as slaves to the reapers more than integrity and annihilation. I used them for their fleets and armies but am more than willing to flip the 'off' switch if it means saving trillions of beings from being harvested and transformed into techno-zombie freaks. Joker can go buy a 22nd century fleshlight.

Modifié par Jukaga, 18 mars 2013 - 06:24 .

[Deathsaurer]

I'm curious why so many people are worried the Shepard AI would restart the harvest when the Catalyst wrote it off as a complete failure to the point it saw Destroy as a better option. It's entirely possible they'll end up an iron fisted dictator (indeed likely in some cases) but the harvest is never coming back because it will always fail in the end. AI logic won't allow them to repeat it because it's pointless. It would look for a new solution whatever that might be. It'd probably enact Synthesis if it really ever came to that point.

[Reorte]

KoorahUK wrote...
Exactly. Destroy is no more reliable than Control or Synthesis. For all we know, Chooting the tube destroys any chance we have of beating the Reapers.

Given that it's either believe him and pick the choice or chose at random anyway there's no reason not to believe that the choices are what they say they are, at least in an immediate, limited sense. Faced with "Well, it can hardly make things any worse in the long run" there's no point in not taking the choices at face value, at least when it comes to deciding whether they do something resembling what they claim or not. It's slightly backed up by the argument that if the Catalyst was aiming to trick Shepard then he probably wouldn't appear at all, just present the "Activate Crucible" button that does what he wants it to do.

[KoorahUK]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Zagardal wrote...

KoorahUK wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Considering all those actions stop the Reaper threat, then yeah.

Considering, Shepard has no guarantee that performing either action will end the Reaper threat, not Realy.

Remind me who it was that told Shepard shooting the tube would Destroy the Reapers?

the starbrat, who we really have no reason to trust in the first place

Given the fact that he's totally cool with me picking Synthesis and Control and talks of the awesome of both and the best he can do when it comes to Destroy is say "Edi and the Geth will die and this will all happen again anyway. (i.e. play on Shep's emotional attachments) to try to get him to not shoot the tube is plenty of argument to shoot the tube.

So the thought that an ancient intelligence determined to deceive you might be capable of reverse psychology never crossed your mind?

Modifié par KoorahUK, 18 mars 2013 - 07:16 .

[KoorahUK]

Reorte wrote...

KoorahUK wrote...
Exactly. Destroy is no more reliable than Control or Synthesis. For all we know, Chooting the tube destroys any chance we have of beating the Reapers.

Given that it's either believe him and pick the choice or chose at random anyway there's no reason not to believe that the choices are what they say they are, at least in an immediate, limited sense. Faced with "Well, it can hardly make things any worse in the long run" there's no point in not taking the choices at face value, at least when it comes to deciding whether they do something resembling what they claim or not. It's slightly backed up by the argument that if the Catalyst was aiming to trick Shepard then he probably wouldn't appear at all, just present the "Activate Crucible" button that does what he wants it to do.

This is exactly how I feel about it. If you were being manipulated, why give you any choice at all?

[KoorahUK]

Jukaga wrote...

Genocide needs genes. Geth and EDI have none, ergo no genocide. They were acceptable casualties of war, and if you guide EDI to that morality she would be more than happy to sacrifice herself to destroy all the reapers. As for the Geth, they showed their true colours when Legion agreed that they valued existence as slaves to the reapers more than integrity and annihilation. I used them for their fleets and armies but am more than willing to flip the 'off' switch if it means saving trillions of beings from being harvested and transformed into techno-zombie freaks. Joker can go buy a 22nd century fleshlight.

So is it your position that no organic life form would ever choose a life under subjugation instead of annihilation? Human history alone begs to differ. Without the Reapers, the Quarians would have wiped out the Geth. They were taking the only alliance they could to defend themselves - they chose life over death, and you think that makes them inherently evil?

Wow.

[TheWill]

people need to remember... the first time you played the game you had no idea shepard would live at the end of destroy! now that people are aware of that.. they have made it their number one choice... think back to what you picked the first time ... your choice... without everyone elses comments and judgements .. your true choice and the reasons for it... we keep judging the game based now only on our replays.. i like to remember my first playththrough, i chose destroy.. there will be sacrifice.. and all were willing to make it.. true equality was my mindset.. organic..synthetic.. doesnt matter.. i would have sacrificed every/any race to end the reapers...

[Liamv2]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Reap_ii

I find the Destroy ending to be the most depressing and outright horrible of all the endings.

* The geth die after truly obtaining sapience. They don't even get the chance to do anything with it.

* EDI dies. Who gives a care about all the things she did for organics, eh?

* Joker is left without the only woman he's ever loved. He's likely going to end up suicidally depressed.

* Depending on how it happens, quarians who've taken geth into their suits might die.

* The Alliance Infiltration Units die.

* And the big one... the thousands of civilisations contained within the Reapers die. We're blaming them for being mind-controlled by a control program, and killing them when their only crime was being mind-controlled.

All that death when choosing Synthesis or Control could avoid it. Synthesis and Control are far less depressing and horrible. Furthermore, in Synthesis/Control the peoples could finally be freed from Reaper form. Their minds, their knowledge, and their genetic code is stored within. So we'd be able to clone new bodies for them and allow them to be themselves again.

I think it's unconscionable to choose Destroy.

Paragon Shepard: The moment I start killing my friends, I become a murderer. I won't cross that line.

Fix for ya the things i removed are proved wrong in the EC

[CaIIisto]

TheWill wrote...

people need to remember... the first time you played the game you had no idea shepard would live at the end of destroy! now that people are aware of that.. they have made it their number one choice... think back to what you picked the first time ... your choice... without everyone elses comments and judgements .. your true choice and the reasons for it... we keep judging the game based now only on our replays.. i like to remember my first playththrough, i chose destroy.. there will be sacrifice.. and all were willing to make it.. true equality was my mindset.. organic..synthetic.. doesnt matter.. i would have sacrificed every/any race to end the reapers...

Nope. First time was destroy. I went to the Citadel to destroy the Reapers, and that's what I did. Shepard surviving was irrelevant to that decision. 

Hasn't destroy been the most popular choice since the beginning......?