283 réponses à ce sujet

[Commander Kurt]

OP, why would they need to resolve it? I wouldn't expect it to get resolved, the war itself will probably end but that is in no way saying that the issue will be resolved.

Ending the war could be done in any number of ways. 

David Gaider wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...
So true. Big hugs to whoever wrote that tree.

I'll accept cookies in lieu.

Dammit!!  I just offered Blair a kidney in a different thread. Now, why didn't I think of cookies...

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Please do not derail the discussion with snarky remarks about the writing of other projects.

But how else are we supposed to derail the the discussion?

Fast Jimmy wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And people wonder why I am so over Mages v. Templars... its because a thread like this pops up about once a week. I've seen enough "call to arms" rallies about Mage freedom and Templar justice on the BSN to say I would be fine in never seeing it again in an actual game.

It'd be hilarious if Bioware will resolve the war canonically, with no player input. The rage in the forums will be great, expecially if they'll go on a "compromise" route. Both sides will be pissed.

See? That's exactly what I think will actually happen.

A Big Bad will be manipulating both sides, with some key players in the Mages and the Templars secretly helping the Big Bad. If you side with Mages, you will root out the Mage traitor, leaving the Templars hurting and ultimately releasing the Big Bad to wreck havoc on the world. Vice versa if you side with the Templars. 

Once the Big Bad is out, both sides realized they have been duped and work together to bring down the enemy. Once the dust settles, they realize that they had more in common than they thought and a truce is made, where Mages can be free from the Circle, but Templars are there to help those who wish to train and keep safe from Abominations/Demons. 

The whole reason the topic even comes up is that the devs wanted a way to have mages roam the world. Running across a random mercernary group that has a mage should, in the game's lore, be an extremely rare thing. But it limits encounter design. If mages are free to be out in the world once they have passed their Harrowing, then there is no reason why the player couldn't encounter them later on.

I see this situation much more likely than Bioware respecting anything as vastly different as "all mages are still locked in towers" and "mages have the right to be anywhere in the world they want." They are too different outcomes to account for with the Save Import. Therefore, it will be somet type of railroaded outcome, where the mages have freedom, since that is the "better" outcome in terms of creating future content and encounter designs.

<speaking out the side of his mouth> Hey, that Fast Jimmy guy has a really smart idea when it comes to how they will address the whole mage/templar thing!

<speaking in normal voice> Why, thank you, person who is definitely not me. I thought that would really address a lot of the concerns about the Mage/Templar conflict, personally. It is nice to see someone who shares an appreciate for brilliant and logical things.


I think what is the hardest obstacle to tackle is the Save Import situation. Just like ME2, which was separated from ME1 by time, locations, different companions and a different story line, DA2 got a bit of a free pass with the imports. After all, the game took place entirely in one of the less important cities in the world. But just like ME3, which received hard criticism for how it railroaded things like character deaths, player choices and "big outcomes" into the same overall narrative design, the spotlight will be on the third installment of DA3 to make the player feel like their imported choices are going to be simple references in the Codex, or whether they will make the player feel like the world is being shaped by their actions.

THAT'S the biggest writer's challenge to me. Not Mage/Templar. That's a no-brainer... the Mages will be free to roam after DA3, one way or the other. It is the only logical conclusion, regardless of your personcal views or beliefs.

[Beerfish]

Commander Kurt wrote...

OP, why would they need to resolve it? I wouldn't expect it to get resolved, the war itself will probably end but that is in no way saying that the issue will be resolved.

Ending the war could be done in any number of ways. 

..

I never said they needed to resolve it long term.  I said they will have to tread lightly in how they carry forth this issue, which seems to possibly be a big part of the next game.  They have done a fine job of setting up a conflict in which the players and fans are not all on one side of the fence.  If the bent of the game ends up to seemingly favor one side or the other a good protion of the fan base will complain about being railroaded to go in a direction they don't want to go.

[otis0310]

Jimmy guy is right. Especially if we include what Morrigan said in witch hunt: There is a storm coming, and I believe my mother is involved (not an exact quote). This combined with Flemeth's cameo in DA2 does hint at a big bad manipulating both sides.

[lil yonce]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I think what is the hardest obstacle to tackle is the Save Import situation. Just like ME2, which was separated from ME1 by time, locations, different companions and a different story line, DA2 got a bit of a free pass with the imports. After all, the game took place entirely in one of the less important cities in the world.

[Snip]

No way! I think Kirkwall is one of the most important cities in Thedas. Its a highly sought after port city. Its been conquered by the Orlesians, the Tevinter Imperium, the Qunari, and the Templars have ruled it. Other city-states in the Free Marches have attempted to sack it. Kirkwall's politics were very interesting.

• Hawke slays the Arishok-- huge considering Kirkwall's past.
• Anders blows up a Chantry and kills one of the most well liked Grand Clerics in Thedas in the name of Mage Freedom.
• The Templars become rulers. Having unprecedented power over the most important port city in Thedas and have the army to keep it.
• Meredith uses her position as both Templar and Viscountess to justify the RoA.
• The Veil is thin in and around Kirkwall because of the ancient battle that took place at Sundermount between the Elves of Arlathan and the Tevinter. Demons and blood magic are more prevalent in Kirkwall because of that.
• Mages can more easily go bonkers in that city because the Veil is so thin. (This may be the cause for "spontaneous abominations")
• That elicits more Templars. More Templars (for that reason and because Kirkwall is great port city I'm sure the Chantry wants for itself) eventually means the Kirkwall Order is the largest order of Templars in Thedas.
• Because they are the army, the Templars are very influential in politics. Meredith can render the Viscount ineffective. Control him even.
• A culmination of Kirkwall's recent events leads to a very natural/eventual power shift. We got to see the ramifications politically.
• We had touch of mystery even with the Lyrium Idol. If Meredith hadn't lost it the Templars would still have an iron grip on the city. The Lyrium Idol is interesting in and of itself (can't wait to learn more about it) and an absolute game changer politcally going forward. I love it.

Leliana says everyone is watching Kirkwall. I believe her.

I want to know what happened to it after the RoA. Who has control over the city now, how long they'll be able to keep it from being conquered again, and who's going to gain control of it in DA3.

The Qunari might attack a weakened Kirkwall to get vengeance for the Arishock and to cut off supply chains all over Thedas-- softening everyone up for invasion. The Imperium might try some landgrabbing while the Chantry is occupied with the Mage/Templar war and encourage apostates to go there to do their bidding. Ferelden might even try to take it because Kirkwall is Amaranthine's stiffest competition. Maybe Starkhaven will take it. Sebastian could return as a conquering Prince after the loss of the Chantry and Elthina's death.

I don't think Kirkwall is given enough credit as a setting. The lore behind it is very interesting. 

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 22 mars 2013 - 04:07 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^

The lore/history is interesting... but it is no Val Royeaux. Or Minthrauos. Or Quanadar. Or Antiva City. Or even Hossberg/Weissenrupt.

Before DA2, people were begging to go to these places. The city states in the Free Marches were pretty much Ferelden 2.0 and greatly unknown to many players. These other locations are the big dogs in the Thedosian world.

[lil yonce]

Being unknown doesn't mean it was any less interesting than the more well-known cities in the lore. And I don't think it was Ferelden 2.0. Many nobles appear to be Orlesian and Kirkwallers in general don't like Fereldens. The Free Marches have radically different politics from Ferelden. You had a Ferelden PC and some Fereldens live there but I wouldn't call that Ferelden 2.0.

[Fast Jimmy]

All of that aside... none of the choices made in DA:O played out in The Free Marches, minus the mention of Allistair being a drunk in Starkhaven in a DA:O epilogue slide (which played out with him being in Kirkwall's bar instead). There were mentions of Wynne in Tevinter, or Leliana going to work for the Divine, or Sten returning to Par Vollen, or Morrigan joining the Imperial Court, or Zevran becoming head of the Crows in Antiva... point being, it was much easier to hide from past decisions in Kirkwall.

Orlais will not be so easy.

[lil yonce]

If the game revolved around the decisions made in Origins it would have been DA:O2. The series was purposefully taken in a different direction and I've no problem with that. The World of Thedas is so much more than the Warden and Co.

I see the plots you mentioned being resolved. Likely not all at once-- a few dangling plot threads are always good.

*Spoiler Alert!*


Wynne is dead.
Leliana is working for the Divine.
Sten is the Arishok. Or maybe he died in Origins if left in Lothering Its not clear.
Zevran is being chased by the Crows. Or he stayed dead.
Alistair had his cameo in DA2. Or he stayed dead.


*End Spoilers*

Morrigan is still a relative unknown. But I think she'll surface in DA3. I think the Civil War plotline is a perfect opportunity to introduce Empress Celene.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 22 mars 2013 - 04:05 .

[The Elder King]

Youth4Ever wrote...

If the game revolved around the decisions made in Origins it would have been DA:O2. The series was purposefully taken in a different direction and I've no problem with that. The World of Thedas is so much more than the Warden and Co.

I see the plots you mentioned being resolved.Likely not all at once-- a few dangling plot threads are always good.
.

Put a spoiler tag for the "resolution" you mentioned. At least one (if not two) are still unknown to some people.

[Jaulen]

I'm hoping the game doesn't resolve the issue fully.....and that there are threads carried over from the other two games....

We've got the Templar/Mages, Tevinter vs Chantry, Orlais vs Fereldan, Quanari vs Thedas, Grey Wardens, Darkspawn, Corpheus, Amagarrak, the ancient dwarves (what did they find???), Flemeth....

So many stories to yet be told.....so many game possibilities......

[lil yonce]

hhh89 wrote...

Put a spoiler tag for the "resolution" you mentioned. At least one (if not two) are still unknown to some people.

Done.

[fchopin]

Youth4Ever wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Put a spoiler tag for the "resolution" you mentioned. At least one (if not two) are still unknown to some people.

Done.

Not good enough, delete the rubbish, if it is not in our games then you should not state any of this rubbish.

[lil yonce]

Jaulen wrote...

I'm hoping the game doesn't resolve the issue fully.....and that there are threads carried over from the other two games....

We've got the Templar/Mages, Tevinter vs Chantry, Orlais vs Fereldan, Quanari vs Thedas, Grey Wardens, Darkspawn, Corpheus, Amagarrak, the ancient dwarves (what did they find???), Flemeth....

So many stories to yet be told.....so many game possibilities......

Wild theory/Speculation incoming. Contains some spoilers/hints from the books/lore etc.

A large number of Dalish clans have gathered for Arlathvhen in Halamshiral attracting Orlesian scrutiny. Empress Celene and her army travel to the White Palace near Hamalshiral in the Frostback Mountains to watch the developing situation and take swift action against a possible Elven rebellion. She is ambushed/betrayed at the Winter Palace by Grand Duke Gaspard de Chalons and his supporters and is forced to flee to Jadar. 

The Western Highway is cut by Gaspard and she can't go anywhere-- I doubt Ferelden's Rulers and Nobility would allow the Empress of Orlais and her army into their country considering the history between the countries. And I bet Cumberland and Val Chevin have Gaspard supporters so she can't cross the sea and go to those cities. Who knows what's up with Kirkwall at this time. Starkhaven could have it but I doubt they'd be anymore hospitiable to the Royal army than Ferelden. The Planasene Forest could be an option if she were truly desperate but I think Dalish Clans journeying to Halamshiral would occupy it.

I really would love to see Anora stick it to Celene for trying to steal her husband and the crown.

The Dalish take advantage of the Civil War and establish Halamshiral as the capital of the Dales once again and begin to grow as every Dalish Clan in Thedas makes it way down.

Maybe the PC can choose the ruler of Orlais. The Empress or the Grand Duke. Celene might be willing to let the Elves have Halamshiral (For Now) and make other concessions to them if they attack Gaspard's army blocking the west and make way for her passage back to Val Royeaux and she has the Inquisitor assassinate Gaspard. And Gaspard might cut a deal with the Elves to attack Celene's army and have the Inquisitor assassinate her while he retreats to Val Royeaux to restore order/deal with another threat like Qunari or Mage/Templar etc.

A huge battle takes place in the Heartlands. Val Royeaux is burned-- maybe by Gaspard as a last ditch effort. Celene had supporter there trying to raise an army from the peasants to help.

It was hinted at the Celene may not care for Divine Justinia V. So maybe after or during the Civil War plot she/or Gaspard asks the Inquisitor to assassinate the Divine so someone more sympathetic to the Templars can take her place. Orlais will back the Templar stance on Mages in hopes that the Templars will come back to the Chantry with church and government support. She'll hope to have an army to help her win the Civil War and hope Orlais will have an army rely on after the Civil War. Or maybe the Inquisitor can make a deal with the Divine and work out a deal between the Chantry, willing Mages, and Templars that satisfies everyone. Decisions, decisions.

I think Sebastian will leave Kirkwall after the death of Elthina and destruction of the Chantry and return to Starkhaven and become Prince. If Hawke didn't kill Anders that's his master plan. If Hawke did and became Viscount but later has to leave or disappears, Sebastian is an obvious choice to take over. Starkhaven is one of the strogest city-states in Kirkwall. I think Sebastian will then conquer Kirkwall and restore order after to a city with no army or leader. But because Starkhaven doesn't have the biggest baddest army in Thedas-- I assume they aren't greater than the Kirkwall Templar Order and declaring war on them isn't declaring war on the Chantry-- somebody will try to sack the city for its port.

I say the Tevinter Imperium does some landgrabbing and encourages apostate mages in the Mage/Templar War to go to the city and establish firm control and a new Mage-State exstension. The aposate mages will likely be considered slaves or lesser to the ruling Magisters, but that might be preferable to being hunted by Templars. I'll bet the Templars follow the Mages there for what results in a big showdown and Kirkwall's thin veil is torn wide open. All Hell breaks loose. Demons everywhere.

But in the meantime-- before the Veil Tear-- the Qunari have had enough of Thedas-- their Arishok was slain and their sacred tome stolen-- and they attack the Tevinter in force. Now the Tevinter Imperium is fighting a two-front war with the Qunari in the north and Demons and Maker knows what else in the South. Minrathous will fall and the Imperium will be no more.

An alliance of nations is needed quick, fast and in a hurry but everyone has been weakened or is too weak in the first place to do anything. Who will save Thedas? IDK. Maybe Morrigan will appear in Celene's court and if the Dark Ritual was performed the OGB will be with her and perhaps he can seal the Veil. And if no Dark Ritual was performed maybe a group of powerful mages from the Tevinter and Circles will work together to seal it. And of course the Inquisitor will have to help and do his/her job along to way to make it all work out (or not) in the end.

I didn't touch the Darkspawn, Corypheus, Dwarves, Grey Wardens, Flemeth plot threads. I'll leave that somebody else. 

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 mars 2013 - 03:59 .

[lil yonce]

fchopin wrote...

Not good enough, delete the rubbish, if it is not in our games then you should not state any of this rubbish.

No.

[Renmiri1]

Youth4Ever wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Not good enough, delete the rubbish, if it is not in our games then you should not state any of this rubbish.

No.

Agreed.

I love speculating about lore 

[Commander Kurt]

@Jimmy; While your reasoning is as sound as ever (and as to how sound that is, I'm not saying ), I still feel that you're overstating the importance of the desicions we were allowed to make in Origins. As is the case IRL, I don't think that who wears the crown will need to have a massive impact. It rarely does. Golems or no golems, that should make a difference in the long run but we may or may not get to see it anytime soon.

It may be important for you to feel that you are shaping the world of Thedas in ernest, but that doesn't mean the writers will let you or that they should. I honestly don't care about it at all, the cameo's are nice and a few nods towards my past choices is enough to keep me satisfied. I just want to keep the story going, and if the writers feel that they need to have Bhelen on the throne then by all means, assassinate the heck out of old Harrowmont. I prefer for the setting to be dynamic over them trying to respect my choices. 

Beerfish wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

OP, why would they need to resolve it? I wouldn't expect it to get resolved, the war itself will probably end but that is in no way saying that the issue will be resolved.

Ending the war could be done in any number of ways. 

..

I never said they needed to resolve it long term.  I said they will have to tread lightly in how they carry forth this issue, which seems to possibly be a big part of the next game.  They have done a fine job of setting up a conflict in which the players and fans are not all on one side of the fence.  If the bent of the game ends up to seemingly favor one side or the other a good protion of the fan base will complain about being railroaded to go in a direction they don't want to go.

But the world evolving in a direction the fans don't like isn't really anything to worry about. That would be like saying that the fans like the Blight so the writers could not make it end because then some people would be disappointed. The PC could be railroaded in one direction or the other, that's true, but it's also easily avoided. Just make the PC able to express their own motivations and opinions on the issue and we should be good.

I agree that they should try to avoid making one faction into villains, but that really shouldn't be too hard and it doesn't mean that the war can't be won by one side.

[dragonflight288]

Commander Kurt wrote...

@Jimmy; While your reasoning is as sound as ever (and as to how sound that is, I'm not saying ), I still feel that you're overstating the importance of the desicions we were allowed to make in Origins. As is the case IRL, I don't think that who wears the crown will need to have a massive impact. It rarely does. Golems or no golems, that should make a difference in the long run but we may or may not get to see it anytime soon.

It may be important for you to feel that you are shaping the world of Thedas in ernest, but that doesn't mean the writers will let you or that they should. I honestly don't care about it at all, the cameo's are nice and a few nods towards my past choices is enough to keep me satisfied. I just want to keep the story going, and if the writers feel that they need to have Bhelen on the throne then by all means, assassinate the heck out of old Harrowmont. I prefer for the setting to be dynamic over them trying to respect my choices. 

Beerfish wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

OP, why would they need to resolve it? I wouldn't expect it to get resolved, the war itself will probably end but that is in no way saying that the issue will be resolved.

Ending the war could be done in any number of ways. 

..

I never said they needed to resolve it long term.  I said they will have to tread lightly in how they carry forth this issue, which seems to possibly be a big part of the next game.  They have done a fine job of setting up a conflict in which the players and fans are not all on one side of the fence.  If the bent of the game ends up to seemingly favor one side or the other a good protion of the fan base will complain about being railroaded to go in a direction they don't want to go.

But the world evolving in a direction the fans don't like isn't really anything to worry about. That would be like saying that the fans like the Blight so the writers could not make it end because then some people would be disappointed. The PC could be railroaded in one direction or the other, that's true, but it's also easily avoided. Just make the PC able to express their own motivations and opinions on the issue and we should be good.

I agree that they should try to avoid making one faction into villains, but that really shouldn't be too hard and it doesn't mean that the war can't be won by one side.

All we have to have is a few good people and a few bad people in every side, and BOOM, polarized sides, each with their own agenda and good reasons for being part of that side and you'll have more fan arguments to moderate and prevent from getting out of control. lol

I highly doubt that we'll be railroaded into supporting one side or another, and I have enough faith in the Dragon Age writing team to not make the same mistakes as had been made in DA2, with the rushed ending, recycled maps or two-bit mage villains who were made over-the-top because the developers admitted they wanted more people to support the templars because they were shocked so many people supported the mages in origins.

Just have two or three really well-developed mage villains and templar villains, we the fans would have a lot more to argue about, in addition to all the other problems going on, such as a likely Qunari invasion, the Orlesian civil war, if Alistair rules alone then he has to deal with ambitious opportunists seeking to take control of Ferelden from him, and all the chaos in the Free Marches as a result of the Big Chantry Bang.

So long as we get good, well-rounded characters, be they good or evil, then I'll be happy. Bioware is one of the best when it comes to story and characters (save for the rushed product of DA2 and the controvercial ME3 ending) so I'm holding out hope that they'll live up to their reputation.

[lil yonce]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Agreed.

I love speculating about lore 

Take a stab at it or feel free to rip my speculations apart. 

[brushyourteeth]

PurebredCorn wrote...

I think the writers are up to the challenge.

I always miss your sensible optimism when you haven't posted in awhile. 

+1

[Argyle]

Twisted Path wrote...

I'm completely uninterested in the mage/templar thing. It's the least interesting aspect of the setting for me. More interesting things being: the Qunari, dragons, the Old Gods, whatever the deal is with the Maker and the Black City, the cuthroat dwarven culture, knights fighting in cool Game of Thrones style battles, and the darkspawn.

I agree.  I realize the mage/templar conflict is intended as a backdrop for secondary plot storylines, but it feels somewhat artificial in execution.  The Black City, on the other hand, could be quite interesting ... even just one small section of that place could provide enough interest for a whole game release.

Now that I think of it, I really don't care about Darkspawn anymore, either.  Sort of like the Borg on Star Trek ... really cool until you've seen them do the same thing 100 times.  I'd much rather have human foes at some point, because they will have lots of personalities and motivations.  It all goes back to Narlen Darkwalk, ha ha.

[TheShadowWolf911]

This guy has some ideas.

Modifié par TheShadowWolf911, 22 mars 2013 - 04:17 .

[DarkSpiral]

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...



This guy has some ideas.

What he has are a lot of opinions, and no ideas on how to implement them.  Even if I agree with some of his sentiments.