283 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

DomRod95 wrote...It was created with magic, he took out an entire chantry with a magic made bomb, but a man also took out an army and a slew of grey wardens just by giving a simple order, that didn't involve magic. And if Thedas knew how to make bombs i'm sure they could do the same thing.

It took the better part of his life and countless battles for Loghain to have the prestige needed to actually manage to command his forces to abandon the King. It's not just any man who could have done so.
But apparently, any mages can just grab some ingredients, do a few spells and have a bomb ready.

[DragonMage95]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Uh, it was the Darkspawn that slew the army and Loghain decided not feeding them more was a good idea. :/

That's debatable. Also, the darkspawn was responsible for the actual slaying but Loghain was responsible as well because he left the armies to die. To insinuate that Loghain isn't responsible for the slaying of the armies is like saying Hitler wasn't responsible for the deaths of the Jewish people because he wasn't the one doing the actual killing.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Yeah, mages are so dangerous that they've been subjugated for centuries despite numerous attempts at rebellion.

It only took a civil war plus a corrupted dragon-god and its armies of endless hellspawn plus a continental revolution in order to remove the from power in half of Thedas.
It shouldn't be a problem to repeat it if we have to, I think we should risk giving them freedom.

Ask the people of Redcliff if they wouldn't have been much happier if Isolde had just sent her damn kid to the Circle. Ask Hawke's mother if Quentin was not dangerous. Ask Elthina.

Then it should've been a cakewalk for them to reassume that power, but it didn't happen. Clearly, magic is not the advantage that you and Chantry propoganda would have the world believe. In fact, you've said countless times that you choose to believe that Andraste was a normal woman, and that no mages whatsoever were involved in the success of her rebellion. In order for that to be true, magic has to be less of a threat than you claim. You can't have it both ways.

Why would I ask Elthina anything? I already know that she's an ignorant coward who ignored obvious abuses occuring under her own jurisdiction. Her opinion is worthless.

I notice that being killed by an insane mage did not cause Leandra Hawke to turn into a raging bigot. Her encounter with Quentin did not cause her to retroactively hate her mage husband, or her mage children, or mages generally. Because she's not a moron.

Nobody with a shred of compassion or commonsense is going to blame Connor for actions outside of his control, or Isolde for not wanting her only son to be taken away. In fact, I don't see the remaining people of Redcliffe rising up to lynch them, do you? It seems that even filthy peasants have the sense to recognize that the Chantry is to blame for creating the toxic environment that provoked the incident in the first place.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 19 mars 2013 - 12:09 .

[DragonMage95]

MisterJB wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...It was created with magic, he took out an entire chantry with a magic made bomb, but a man also took out an army and a slew of grey wardens just by giving a simple order, that didn't involve magic. And if Thedas knew how to make bombs i'm sure they could do the same thing.

It took the better part of his life and countless battles for Loghain to have the prestige needed to actually manage to command his forces to abandon the King. It's not just any man who could have done so.
But apparently, any mages can just grab some ingredients, do a few spells and have a bomb ready.

He gave a command because he had the power too, even if he had no experience he still could've given the command and they would have followed simply because he was in a position of power. Also, any man has the power to do something like that.And like I said before, if humans in Thedas knew how to make a bomb they could've done the same thing without magic.

[DragonMage95]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Yeah, mages are so dangerous that they've been subjugated for centuries despite numerous attempts at rebellion.

It only took a civil war plus a corrupted dragon-god and its armies of endless hellspawn plus a continental revolution in order to remove the from power in half of Thedas.
It shouldn't be a problem to repeat it if we have to, I think we should risk giving them freedom.

Ask the people of Redcliff if they wouldn't have been much happier if Isolde had just sent her damn kid to the Circle. Ask Hawke's mother if Quentin was not dangerous. Ask Elthina.

Then it should've been a cakewalk for them to reassume that power, but it didn't happen. Clearly, magic is not the advantage that you and Chantry propoganda would have the world believe.

Why would I ask Elthina anything? I already know that she's an ignorant coward who ignored obvious abuses occuring under her own jurisdiction. Her opinion is worthless.

I notice that being killed by an insane mage did not cause Leandra Hawke to turn into a raging bigot. Her encounter with Quentin did not cause her to retroactively hate her mage husband, or her mage children, or mages generally. Because she's not a moron.

Nobody with a shred of compassion or commonsense is going to blame Connor for actions outside of his control, or Isolde for not wanting her only son to be taken away. In fact, I don't see the remaining people of Redcliffe rising up to lynch them, do you? It seems that even filthy peasants have the sense to recognize that the Chantry is to blame for creating the toxic environment that provoked the incident in the first place.

Yay! Someone who understands.

[Dave of Canada]

DomRod95 wrote...

I wasn't being completely serious either. Also, I disagree, anyone can lose control and seek to overpower and anyone can abuse power, mage or not, in fact regular humans have done so more often than mages. But, to each his own.

Because mages are put in a position where they can't do anything bad. A human who wants to commit an atrocity has to face the king or the chantry, has to do it with significant influence and has to use natural charisma to have any hopes of having someone on their side.

If people like Howe were mages, that'd be far more disastrous because he'd be able to command powers which would help him achieve everything he desires, control anyone who dissents and fight off any would-be contenders. The entire point of the Chantry / Templar is to prevent things like this.

Mages are humans too, they'd commit atrocities just like everyone else and they'd have the power to do far worse. Mages in power sunk an entire damned city for example.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 mars 2013 - 12:09 .

[DragonMage95]

Oh and also, lets not forget non mages have the power to wipe out a tower full of powerful mages.

[Dave of Canada]

DomRod95 wrote...

Oh and also, lets not forget non mages have the power to wipe out a tower full of powerful mages.

Only when the tower is deemed unsalvagable which is a hell of a lot better living conditions than the peasantry which are abused or culled by nobility and guards all the time.

Edit: Or maybe you're a mundane in Tevinter and viewed no better than cattle.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 mars 2013 - 12:13 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Then it should've been a cakewalk for them to reassume that power, but it didn't happen. Clearly, magic is not the advantage that you and Chantry propoganda would have the world believe.

Tevinter has been quite busy dealing with the Qunari who are more technolgically advanced than the humans and the Andrastean mages haven't taken power exactly because there are measures in place to prevent them from doing so namely the Circle System and Templar Order.
And, obviously, we can't compare a chansind warrior of Andraste's time wearing leather and wielding iron hammers with the Orlesian chevaliers of today.
But it's ridiculous to claim that Storm of the Century, Blood Slave, Blood Wound, Walking Bomb, Waking Nightmare, Fireball, etc, etc, etc don't place mages at an advantageous position over mundanes.

Why would I ask Elthina anything? I already know that she's an ignorant, coward who ignored obvious abuses occuring under her own jurisdiction. Her opinion is worthless.

She was murdered by a dangerous mage terrorist. As innefective as she was, she did not deserve to die.

I notice that being killed by an insane mage did not cause Leandra Hawke to turn into a raging bigot. Her encounter with Quentin did not cause her to retroactively hate her mage husband, or her mage children, or mages generally. Because she's not a moron.

There is no bigotry in wishing that people don't walk in the streets wearing explosive belts. Had Quentin been in the Circle, Leandra would still be alive.

Nobody with a shred of compassion or commonsense is going to blame Connor for actions outside of his control, or Isolde for not wanting her only son to be taken away. In fact, I don't see the remaining people of Redcliffe rising up to lynch them, do you? It seems that even filthy peasants have the sense to recognize that the Chantry is to blame for creating the toxic environment that provoked the incident in the first place.

Connor has no blame; he is just a child, after all; but it's obvious that this proves mages are too dangerous to be allowed freedom. Isolde doesn't even have any excuse because, due to her status as a noble, she would have acess to visiting rights a peasant woman wouldn't.
But she would not be satisfied with anything less than Connor being treated as any other kid. Unfortunately, Connor is not like any other kid. He is capable of killing people with his mind and raising their corpses as undead to obey his command and pretending it is not so won't make his magic go away.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 mars 2013 - 12:16 .

[The Elder King]

DomRod95 wrote...

Oh and also, lets not forget non mages have the power to wipe out a tower full of powerful mages.

It's a gameplay reason, which doesn't mean nothing for the story and the plot. Unless you want to make me believe that a person could be munched by a dragon without dying.

[DragonMage95]

Dave of Canada wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

I wasn't being completely serious either. Also, I disagree, anyone can lose control and seek to overpower and anyone can abuse power, mage or not, in fact regular humans have done so more often than mages. But, to each his own.

Because mages are put in a position where they can't do anything bad. A human who wants to commit an atrocity has to face the king or the chantry, has to do it with significant influence and has to use natural charisma to have any hopes of having someone on their side.

If people like Howe were mages, that'd be far more disastrous because he'd be able to command powers which would help him achieve everything he desires, control anyone who dissents and fight off any would-be contenders. The entire point of the Chantry / Templar is to prevent things like this.

Mages are humans too, they'd commit atrocities just like everyone else and they'd have the power to do far worse. Mages in power sunk an entire damned city for example.

Non-Mages are also in positions were they cant do bad things as well, you said it yourself, they have to face the chantry and king, Thedas has rules and Non-Mages still break them, the only difference is that people don't care as much because they are not mages. If Loghain was a mage and did what he did he would've been punished immediatley, same goes for Howe. And Howe got what he wanted without being a mage. Oh and a non-mage took over an entire country without magic, so there is an example.

[DragonMage95]

hhh89 wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

Oh and also, lets not forget non mages have the power to wipe out a tower full of powerful mages.

It's a gameplay reason, which doesn't mean nothing for the story and the plot. Unless you want to make me believe that a person could be munched by a dragon without dying.

Really it was just for gameplay? Circle Towers got annuled outside of DA:O as well, so the "it was just for gameplay" card is just BS.

[DragonMage95]

Dave of Canada wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

Oh and also, lets not forget non mages have the power to wipe out a tower full of powerful mages.

Only when the tower is deemed unsalvagable which is a hell of a lot better living conditions than the peasantry which are abused or culled by nobility and guards all the time.

Edit: Or maybe you're a mundane in Tevinter and viewed no better than cattle.

The Right of Annulment can be abused, and to say that a circle tower is better living conditions is completely wrong. 

[The Elder King]

DomRod95 wrote...

 Non-Mages are also in positions were they cant do bad things as well, you said it yourself, they have to face the chantry and king, Thedas has rules and Non-Mages still break them, the only difference is that people don't care as much because they are not mages. If Loghain was a mage and did what he did he would've been punished immediatley, same goes for Howe. And Howe got what he wanted without being a mage. Oh and a non-mage took over an entire country without magic, so there is an example.

If mage Loghain was a war hero, general of the armies and regent, he'd have got away in the same way. Howe got away because one of the highest authority of Ferelden, and father of the queen, (Loghain) protected him.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 mars 2013 - 12:22 .

[The Elder King]

DomRod95 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

Oh and also, lets not forget non mages have the power to wipe out a tower full of powerful mages.

It's a gameplay reason, which doesn't mean nothing for the story and the plot. Unless you want to make me believe that a person could be munched by a dragon without dying.

Really it was just for gameplay? Circle Towers got annuled outside of DA:O as well, so the "it was just for gameplay" card is just BS.

I assumed you were talking about the Warden's accomplishment, not the Annulment. Of course thousands of templars, who are specialized in fighting mages, could wipe out a tower of mages. Templars are special, since they are trained and gifted with special abilities to fight mages, and in the case of the Annulment they have a numerical advantage.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 mars 2013 - 12:26 .

[DragonMage95]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Then it should've been a cakewalk for them to reassume that power, but it didn't happen. Clearly, magic is not the advantage that you and Chantry propoganda would have the world believe.

Tevinter has been quite busy dealing with the Qunari who are more technolgically advanced than the humans and the Andrastean mages haven't taken power exactly because there are measures in place to prevent them from doing so namely the Circle System and Templar Order.
And, obviously, we can't compare a chansind warrior of Andraste's time wearing leather and wielding iron hammers with the Orlesian chevaliers of today.
But it's ridiculous to claim that Storm of the Century, Blood Slave, Blood Wound, Walking Bomb, Waking Nightmare, Fireball, etc, etc, etc don't place mages at an advantageous position over mundanes.

Why would I ask Elthina anything? I already know that she's an ignorant, coward who ignored obvious abuses occuring under her own jurisdiction. Her opinion is worthless.

She was murdered by a dangerous mage terrorist. As innefective as she was, she did not deserve to die.

I notice that being killed by an insane mage did not cause Leandra Hawke to turn into a raging bigot. Her encounter with Quentin did not cause her to retroactively hate her mage husband, or her mage children, or mages generally. Because she's not a moron.

There is no bigotry in wishing that people don't walk in the streets wearing explosive belts. Had Quentin been in the Circle, Leandra would still be alive.

Nobody with a shred of compassion or commonsense is going to blame Connor for actions outside of his control, or Isolde for not wanting her only son to be taken away. In fact, I don't see the remaining people of Redcliffe rising up to lynch them, do you? It seems that even filthy peasants have the sense to recognize that the Chantry is to blame for creating the toxic environment that provoked the incident in the first place.

Connor has no blame; he is just a child, after all; but it's obvious that this proves mages are too dangerous to be allowed freedom. Isolde doesn't even have any excuse because, due to her status as a noble, she would have acess to visiting rights a peasant woman wouldn't.
But she would not be satisfied with anything less than Connor being treated as any other kid. Unfortunately, Connor is not like any other kid. He is capable of killing people with his mind and raising their corpses as undead to obey his command and pretending it is not so won't make his magic go away.

Had Quentin not been crazy Leandra would still be alive. A non-mage could've done the same thing to her, the only difference was that magic kept her alive. Non-mages can raise armies that obey them as well, and they can kill just as brutally as any mage. Oh, and did any mages in the tower deserve to die just because some crazy lady didn't want them there? Also, Templars have advantages over mages so theres that. And once again if the chantry hadn't taken control of the mages things like the blowing up the chantry and the redcliffe situation wouldn't have happened. I'm not saying mages should run completely free, but they shouldn't have to be locked away in a tower. 

[The Elder King]

DomRod95 wrote...

 And once again if the chantry hadn't taken control of the mages things like the blowing up the chantry and the redcliffe situation wouldn't have happened. I'm not saying mages should run completely free, but they shouldn't have to be locked away in a tower. 

I remember that (at least a part of them) mages agreed on going in the Circles, though it probably because they were hunted by the Inquisition, and common people greatly feared them, since the memory of the suffering caused by the Tevinter Imperium (both directly and indirectly, for the trigger of the Blights) was fresh.

[BlueMagitek]

DomRod95 wrote...
The Right of Annulment can be abused, and to say that a circle tower is better living conditions is completely wrong. 

Uh, the Circle Tower is significantly better living condition than anything less than a noble or a very rich merchant can expect.  They're also protected from wars between Andrastian nations through neutrality (though they can join if they wish), protected from bandits and have a source of food so they don't need to worry about starving.  How can you not say that it is better?

DomRod95 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
Uh, it was the Darkspawn that slew the army and Loghain decided not feeding them more was a good idea. :/

That's debatable. Also, the darkspawn was responsible for the actual slaying but Loghain was responsible as well because he left the armies to die. To insinuate that Loghain isn't responsible for the slaying of the armies is like saying Hitler wasn't responsible for the deaths of the Jewish people because he wasn't the one doing the actual killing.

Haha, no.  Honestly, I'm not sure if I should tear this apart or just leave it for KoP or TEWR.  I mean, you just compared a tactical retreat to the Holocaust.

Loghain did not put the King or the Army into that position willingly.  The King insisted on being put into that position.  I can just as easily say it is the fault of you and Alistar.  You didn't light the beacon at the right time and cost the Kingdom half its army and the King his life.  You monster.

[DragonMage95]

hhh89 wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

 Non-Mages are also in positions were they cant do bad things as well, you said it yourself, they have to face the chantry and king, Thedas has rules and Non-Mages still break them, the only difference is that people don't care as much because they are not mages. If Loghain was a mage and did what he did he would've been punished immediatley, same goes for Howe. And Howe got what he wanted without being a mage. Oh and a non-mage took over an entire country without magic, so there is an example.

If mage Loghain was a war hero, general of the armies and regent, he'd have got away in the same way. Howe got away because one of the highest authority of Ferelden, and father of the queen, (Loghain) protected him.

If Loghain was a mage the nobles would've had him executed immediatley for killing the King of Ferelden, they wouldn't of followed his orders because they would go cry "A mage killed the King, I knew mages were evil and untrustworthy even though he was the Hero of River Dane, kill the evil king killing mage!". Not to mention Loghain wouldn't have been in a postition of power if he was a mage in the first place.

[Dave of Canada]

DomRod95 wrote...

Thedas has rules and Non-Mages still break them, the only difference is that people don't care as much because they are not mages.

They only don't care if you're someone of influence, commoners and elves are stepped upon all the time.

If Loghain was a mage and did what he did he would've been punished immediatley, same goes for Howe.

No, they wouldn't. The entire scenario behind Howe and Loghain's actions were that they were doing it at an opportune time while everyone else was distracted and circumstances fell in their favor, the fact remained that barely anyone believed in Loghain's supposed "betrayal" and the lords in favor of the rebellion were being crushed by Loghain's martial might.

Were it not for the Landsmeet, Loghain--mage or not--wouldn't have any "crimes" under his or her belt, they were the hero which Ferelden needed until that time.

And Howe got what he wanted without being a mage. Oh and a non-mage took over an entire country without magic, so there is an example.

Again, through circumstance and natural charisma / influence. Were Loghain anyone else, he'd never be capable of achieving control of the nation simply because circumstance would never have fell in his favor. A mage in Howe's shoes would've been far more disastrous, imagine him controlling the Couslands instead of killing them.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 mars 2013 - 12:35 .

[Dave of Canada]

DomRod95 wrote...

The Right of Annulment can be abused, and to say that a circle tower is better living conditions is completely wrong. 

HAHAHAHA.

Thanks, needed a good laugh.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 mars 2013 - 12:34 .

[DragonMage95]

BlueMagitek wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...
The Right of Annulment can be abused, and to say that a circle tower is better living conditions is completely wrong. 

Uh, the Circle Tower is significantly better living condition than anything less than a noble or a very rich merchant can expect.  They're also protected from wars between Andrastian nations through neutrality (though they can join if they wish), protected from bandits and have a source of food so they don't need to worry about starving.  How can you not say that it is better?

DomRod95 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
Uh, it was the Darkspawn that slew the army and Loghain decided not feeding them more was a good idea. :/

That's debatable. Also, the darkspawn was responsible for the actual slaying but Loghain was responsible as well because he left the armies to die. To insinuate that Loghain isn't responsible for the slaying of the armies is like saying Hitler wasn't responsible for the deaths of the Jewish people because he wasn't the one doing the actual killing.

Haha, no.  Honestly, I'm not sure if I should tear this apart or just leave it for KoP or TEWR.  I mean, you just compared a tactical retreat to the Holocaust.

Loghain did not put the King or the Army into that position willingly.  The King insisted on being put into that position.  I can just as easily say it is the fault of you and Alistar.  You didn't light the beacon at the right time and cost the Kingdom half its army and the King his life.  You monster.

I didn't compare it actually. I said saying he wasn't responsible for the deaths of Cailan, his army, and the Wardens is about as dumb as saying Hitler wasn't responsible for the deaths in the Holocaust, I never once compared them like they were the same thing nor do I think they are similar. Thinking that I would compare a tactical retreat from a game to a real life tragedy such as the Holocaust is completely ignorant on your part.

[The Elder King]

DomRod95 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

If Loghain was a mage the nobles would've had him executed immediatley for killing the King of Ferelden, they wouldn't of followed his orders because they would go cry "A mage killed the King, I knew mages were evil and untrustworthy even though he was the Hero of River Dane, kill the evil king killing mage!". Not to mention Loghain wouldn't have been in a postition of power if he was a mage in the first place.

If he wouldn't have been in that position, that he wouldn't have been able to left the King behind. He might not even be present at Ostagar. So the nobles wouldn't have a reason to kill him.
About the first part of your post, a lot of people (both nobles and common) didn't believe that Loghain was responsible for what happened at Ostagar, and that he left Cailan behind. Otherwise he'd have been executed.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 mars 2013 - 12:42 .