283 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

DomRod95 wrote...

I didn't compare it actually. I said saying he wasn't responsible for the deaths of Cailan, his army, and the Wardens is about as dumb as saying Hitler wasn't responsible for the deaths in the Holocaust, I never once compared them like they were the same thing nor do I think they are similar. Thinking that I would compare a tactical retreat from a game to a real life tragedy such as the Holocaust is completely ignorant on your part.

Now you're comparing a noble character such as Loghain to Hitler?  While being completely wrong about his actions and what he did?  My goodness, man, calm yourself down.

[DragonMage95]

Dave of Canada wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

The Right of Annulment can be abused, and to say that a circle tower is better living conditions is completely wrong. 

HAHAHAHA.

Thanks, needed a good laugh.

\\ I'm glad you can laugh at that. How about you go live in a prison for a while and then come back and tell me if you found it better than living free in the outside world. Mages in the tower are controlled constantly and are often abused within the tower. Sure they have food and beds and books, but is that really better than freedom. Mages cant even leave the tower unless someone allows them to. But, im sure youre right.The mages would rather be told what to do all their lives, be watched over, be abused, and not be able to step outside. Freedom and the outside world is crap!<_<

[DragonMage95]

BlueMagitek wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

I didn't compare it actually. I said saying he wasn't responsible for the deaths of Cailan, his army, and the Wardens is about as dumb as saying Hitler wasn't responsible for the deaths in the Holocaust, I never once compared them like they were the same thing nor do I think they are similar. Thinking that I would compare a tactical retreat from a game to a real life tragedy such as the Holocaust is completely ignorant on your part.

Now you're comparing a noble character such as Loghain to Hitler?  While being completely wrong about his actions and what he did?  My goodness, man, calm yourself down.

Didn't compare them either. And Loghain is noble? HAHA. I'm wrong about his actions? HAHAHA. Either you're a troll or you're an idiot, perhaps a little bit of both.

[Dave of Canada]

DomRod95 wrote...

I'm glad you can laugh at that.

Thanks but now I know you're one of "those" posters.

How about you go live in a prison for a while and then come back and tell me if you found it better than living free in the outside world.

Modern World with civil liberties =/= Thedas. Try again.

Mages in the tower are controlled constantly and are often abused within the tower.

They're abused illegally, Chantry officials deal with any reported Templar offender. Far better than the nobility who torture/rape peasants, sending guards to kill dissenters and watching the poor wallow in their own filth and disease, no?

Sure they have food and beds and books, but is that really better than freedom.

This whole "FREEEEEDOOOMMMMMM!!!1111" thing only matters when everyone is educated (and even then it took centuries for it to kick in), it doesn't exist as long as we've got those of gentle birth ruling over commoners.

Mages cant even leave the tower unless someone allows them to.

Oh no! Those poor mages, they have to have check-ups and permission which they gain if they pass their courses and don't break any rules to leave the tower to do as they please! Poor, poor mages!

But, im sure youre right.The mages would rather be told what to do all their lives, be watched over, be abused, and not be able to step outside. Freedom and the outside world is crap!<_<

And I'm sure the peasant who farms his own crop, pays the noble's taxes, has to be wary of bandits / guards / nobility / disease and whether or not they've got enough food and may be killed within anyone lifting a finger to save him would much appreciate living in a warm cozy tower.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 mars 2013 - 12:52 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
Tevinter has been quite busy dealing with the Qunari who are more technolgically advanced than the humans and the Andrastean mages haven't taken power exactly because there are measures in place to prevent them from doing so namely the Circle System and Templar Order.

The Qunari showed up 300 years ago, which still gives Tevinter and all the mages in Thedas the better part of a millenium to overthrow the Chantry and resume control of the world, if they were able or so inclined.

And, obviously, we can't compare a chansind warrior of Andraste's time wearing leather and wielding iron hammers with the Orlesian chevaliers of today.

Why not? You claim that mages still present the exact same amount of dnager they always did, regardless of advancements in armor and weapon development.

But it's ridiculous to claim that Storm of the Century, Blood Slave, Blood Wound, Walking Bomb, Waking Nightmare, Fireball, etc, etc, etc don't place mages at an advantageous position over mundanes.

When you can summon animals out of thin air, turn invisible, teleport behind someone in a puff of smoke, or stun them by singing or even just yelling, mages have little to no advantage over you at all.

She was murdered by a dangerous mage terrorist. As innefective as she was, she did not deserve to die.

You're right, she didn't deserve to die.

She deserved to suffer the same way the mages under her care suffered at the hands of her templars.

There is no bigotry in wishing that people don't walk in the streets wearing explosive belts.

People choose to wear explosive belts. It's not the same thing at all.

Had Quentin been in the Circle, Leandra would still be alive.

You mean if Meredith had actually done her job for a change, instead of victimising innocents, Leandra might still be alive.

And if the magistrate had kept his insane son imprisoned, countless elven girls would still be alive. If Loghain hadn't retreated from Ostagar, maybe Lothering would've been spared. If if if if if. What's your point?

Connor has no blame; he is just a child, after all; but it's obvious that this proves mages are too dangerous to be allowed freedom. Isolde doesn't even have any excuse because, due to her status as a noble, she would have acess to visiting rights a peasant woman wouldn't.

Yeah, ask any parent. Visting rights are totally the same as raising them yourself! Especially when your child is taken to a prison where his captors might beat, rape, lobotomize or murder him.

God, Isolde is such an unreasonable shrew. How dare she, honestly.

But she would not be satisfied with anything less than Connor being treated as any other kid.

Of course she wouldn't be, no decent parent would be. The parents that allowed their children to be taken from them deserve to suffer the same pain and trauma they inflicted on their children, tenfold.

Unfortunately, Connor is not like any other kid. He is capable of killing people with his mind and raising their corpses as undead to obey his command and pretending it is not so won't make his magic go away.

Because the Circle and Templars do such a good job at containing the mage threat.

Oh wait, no they don't. They suck at it. Abysmally.

[BlueMagitek]

DomRod95 wrote...

Didn't compare them either. And Loghain is noble? HAHA. I'm wrong about his actions? HAHAHA. Either you're a troll or you're an idiot, perhaps a little bit of both.

Perhaps I'm being a tad ridiculous because you brought up reference to the Holocaust when you could have used any other analogy.  What is wrong with you?

And yes, Loghain is quite noble.  He defended his country from Orlais, Darkspawn and more.  But please, take a look for yourself; go into any topic about Loghain on the original Dragon Age board where it questions his motives.  I don't need to repeat an argument that's been done thousands of times here. 

I can lead you to water, but I fear I cannot force you to drink.

[The Elder King]

DomRod95 wrote...


 I'm glad you can laugh at that. How about you go live in a prison for a while and then come back and tell me if you found it better than living free in the outside world. Mages in the tower are controlled constantly and are often abused within the tower. Sure they have food and beds and books, but is that really better than freedom. Mages cant even leave the tower unless someone allows them to. But, im sure youre right.The mages would rather be told what to do all their lives, be watched over, be abused, and not be able to step outside. Freedom and the outside world is crap!<_<

Some of the people in prison in my country often commit crimes because in prison they'd have better lives than outside, and my country is a member of the G8. Not saying that living in prison is good (though in some prisons in my contry they have tv, radio, sky:unsure:) but it depends on the people and the kind of life they have (and of course the prison). The same goes for Thedas.
And while the abuse in the Circles is terrible and horrifying, we're talking about a age similar to our Middle Age in term of human rights and treatment of lower classes. City elves and casteless dwarves aren't in any better position than the mages in term of abusing risks, and common people could be easily abused by nobles, expecially in Orlais and Tevinter. The world of Thedas is a bad world to live for anyone who haven't some power and wealth.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 mars 2013 - 12:58 .

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...
And I'm sure the peasant who farms his own crop, pays the noble's taxes, has to be wary of bandits / guards / nobility / disease and whether or not they've got enough food and may be killed within anyone lifting a finger to save him would much appreciate living in a warm cozy tower.

Even the inhabitants of Buckingham Palace want to go outside sometimes, and they don't deal with an ever-present threat of physical or sexual assault.

[DragonMage95]

Dave of Canada wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

I'm glad you can laugh at that.

Thanks but now I know you're one of "those" posters.

How about you go live in a prison for a while and then come back and tell me if you found it better than living free in the outside world.

Modern World with civil liberties =/= Thedas. Try again.

Mages in the tower are controlled constantly and are often abused within the tower.

They're abused illegally, Chantry officials deal with any reported Templar offender. Far better than the nobility who torture/rape peasants, sending guards to kill dissenters and watching the poor wallow in their own filth and disease, no?

Sure they have food and beds and books, but is that really better than freedom.

This whole "FREEEEEDOOOMMMMMM!!!1111" thing only matters when everyone is educated (and even then it took centuries for it to kick in), it doesn't exist as long as we've got those of gentle birth ruling over commoners.

Mages cant even leave the tower unless someone allows them to.

Oh no! Those poor mages, they have to have check-ups and permission which they gain if they pass their courses and don't break any rules to leave the tower to do as they please! Poor, poor mages!

But, im sure youre right.The mages would rather be told what to do all their lives, be watched over, be abused, and not be able to step outside. Freedom and the outside world is crap!<_<

And I'm sure the peasant who farms his own crop, pays the noble's taxes, has to be wary of bandits / guards / nobility / disease and whether or not they've got enough food and may be killed within anyone lifting a finger to save him would much appreciate living in a warm cozy tower.

One of those posters? Sure. Also, i'm using prison as an example, once again thinking i'm comparing something from a game to real life is ignorant. Freedom only matters when you're educated? Really? I cant even respond to that. Do you think every Templar offender gets reported? Do regular people have to get permission and check-ups and take courses to go outside without being guarded? Also, im sure if you asked any peasant if theyd rather live in the outside world as opposed to a guarded tower theyd choose the outside world. Come on now.

[The Elder King]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...


When you can summon animals out of thin air, turn invisible, teleport behind someone in a puff of smoke, or stun them by singing or even just yelling, mages have little to no advantage over you at all. [/quote]

In both DAO and DA2 (though in the latter they were nerfed) I felt mages to be way more powerful than other classes.
And again, gameplay logic shouldn't mean much to the story, otherwise I want to be explicitely stated that a man with a strong armour could resist being munched six or seven times by a dragon.

[/quote]

[DragonMage95]

BlueMagitek wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

Didn't compare them either. And Loghain is noble? HAHA. I'm wrong about his actions? HAHAHA. Either you're a troll or you're an idiot, perhaps a little bit of both.

Perhaps I'm being a tad ridiculous because you brought up reference to the Holocaust when you could have used any other analogy.  What is wrong with you?

And yes, Loghain is quite noble.  He defended his country from Orlais, Darkspawn and more.  But please, take a look for yourself; go into any topic about Loghain on the original Dragon Age board where it questions his motives.  I don't need to repeat an argument that's been done thousands of times here. 

I can lead you to water, but I fear I cannot force you to drink.

Once again you spew your ignorance. I didn't reference anything about the Holocaust at all, it was an analogy I used because I expected people to be smarter than you are being right now. Loghain did do those things, but he betrayed his King and basically his country just because he had a problem with Orlais.

[DragonMage95]

hhh89 wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...


 I'm glad you can laugh at that. How about you go live in a prison for a while and then come back and tell me if you found it better than living free in the outside world. Mages in the tower are controlled constantly and are often abused within the tower. Sure they have food and beds and books, but is that really better than freedom. Mages cant even leave the tower unless someone allows them to. But, im sure youre right.The mages would rather be told what to do all their lives, be watched over, be abused, and not be able to step outside. Freedom and the outside world is crap!<_<

Some of the people in prison in my country often commit crimes because in prison they'd have better lives than outside, and my country is a member of the G8. Not saying that living in prison is good (though in some prisons in my contry they have tv, radio, sky:unsure:) but it depends on the people and the kind of life they have (and of course the prison). The same goes for Thedas.
And while the abuse in the Circles is terrible and horrifying, we're talking about a age similar to our Middle Age in term of human rights and treatment of lower classes. City elves and casteless dwarves aren't in any better position than the mages in term of abusing risks, and common people could be easily abused by nobles, expecially in Orlais and Tevinter. The world of Thedas is a bad world to live for anyone who haven't some power and wealth.

That's understandable, but my point is that most people would rather live freely than be imprisoned, no matter how nice it is in the prison.

[The Elder King]

DomRod95 wrote...



 One of those posters? Sure. Also, i'm using prison as an example, once again thinking i'm comparing something from a game to real life is ignorant. Freedom only matters when you're educated? Really? I cant even respond to that. Do you think every Templar offender gets reported? Do regular people have to get permission and check-ups and take courses to go outside without being guarded? Also, im sure if you asked any peasant if theyd rather live in the outside world as opposed to a guarded tower theyd choose the outside world. Come on now.

I think a few city elves and casteless dwarf would like to live in the Circle (and I already explained a situation in real life where people prefer the prison). Though of course it depends on the location. In Kirkwall nobody would dare to go in the Gallows, but it's because of the templars extreme approach in the city (and enormour power they hold in it).

Modifié par hhh89, 19 mars 2013 - 01:14 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
The Qunari showed up 300 years ago, which still gives Tevinter and all the mages in Thedas the better part of a millenium to overthrow the Chantry and resume control of the world, if they were able or so inclined.

They have tried quite often. The Anderfels, for instance, was under Tevinter control until the Second Blight.
But it's obvious it would take a long time without conflicts such as Blights for Tevinter to regain its former power.

Why not? You claim that mages still present the exact same amount of dnager they always did, regardless of advancements in armor and weapon development.

I never claimed such a thing. I pointed out the fact mages are extremely dangerous and they have the potential to overthrow mundane society.
I make no mention of difficulty.

When you can summon animals out of thin air, turn invisible, teleport behind someone in a puff of smoke, or stun them by singing or even just yelling, mages have little to no advantage over you at all.

Gamepley/story segregation.
And yes, it doesn't apply to mages because they have an excuse. Magic.

You're right, she didn't deserve to die.

She deserved to suffer the same way the mages under her care suffered at the hands of her templars.

No, she doesn't. She is not a mage, there is no need to contain her. Any offenses against Chantry Law merit punishment to the offenders, not Elthina.

People choose to wear explosive belts. It's not the same thing at all.

Just because people are being born with explosive belts, that doesn't mean we should ignore the danger they represent. Mages are not the same as mundanes, that simple fact will never change.

You mean if Meredith had actually done her job for a change, instead of victimising innocents, Leandra might still be alive.

And if the magistrate had kept his insane son imprisoned, countless elven girls would still be alive. If Loghain hadn't retreated from Ostagar, maybe Lothering would've been spared. If if if if if. What's your point?

Maybe Orsino should have informed Meredith he knew of the location of a demented blood mage. That might have helped her do her job.
My point is the same as always. Normal people such as you and me are imposed restrictions in our ordinary lives in order to account for the danger we might represent. All I ask is that the restrictions imposed upon the mages reflect the danger they might represent.
Would you argue that a 9mm and a nuclear bomb are the same thing and should be guarded in the same manner?

Yeah, ask any parent. Visting rights are totally the same as raising them yourself! Especially when your child is taken to a prison where his captors might beat, rape, lobotomize or murder him.

God, Isolde is such an unreasonable shrew. How dare she, honestly.

Just like any person might be beaten or raped just because s/he walked down the wrong street at the wrong hour.
At some point, you just have to accept that your son is not like other people and that babying him is endagering others.

Of course she wouldn't be, no decent parent would be. The parents that allowed their children to be taken from them deserve to suffer the same pain and trauma they inflicted on their children, tenfold.

Decent human beings would realize that you can't endanger your entire community just to keep your child who will, in many way, have a better life in the Circle anyway.

Because the Circle and Templars do such a good job at containing the mage threat.

Oh wait, no they don't. They suck at it. Abysmally.

Despite the fact that they have managed to contain the mage threat admirably for around 700 years?
Southern Thedas is still not a wasteland or Tevinter. That's a point in their favor.

[MisterJB]

DomRod95 wrote...
Also, im sure if you asked any peasant if theyd rather live in the outside world as opposed to a guarded tower theyd choose the outside world. Come on now.

Please attend to reality. There are billions of people in our world TODAY, 2013, who would kill their mothers if we told them in return they'd be taken to a place where it doesn't rain and  where they would be clothed, fed and educated.
We're talking about people who have to eat their own waste to survive.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 mars 2013 - 01:18 .

[DragonMage95]

MisterJB wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...
Also, im sure if you asked any peasant if theyd rather live in the outside world as opposed to a guarded tower theyd choose the outside world. Come on now.

Please attend to reality. There are billions of people in our world TODAY, 2013, who would kill their mothers if we told them in return they'd be taken to a place where it doesn't rain and  where they would be clothed, fed and educated.
We're talking about people who have to eat their own waste to survive.

We're talking about a game that takes place in a made up land. I'd rather not attend to reality when discussing something that isn't reality.

[BlueMagitek]

DomRod95 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

Didn't compare them either. And Loghain is noble? HAHA. I'm wrong about his actions? HAHAHA. Either you're a troll or you're an idiot, perhaps a little bit of both.

Perhaps I'm being a tad ridiculous because you brought up reference to the Holocaust when you could have used any other analogy.  What is wrong with you?

And yes, Loghain is quite noble.  He defended his country from Orlais, Darkspawn and more.  But please, take a look for yourself; go into any topic about Loghain on the original Dragon Age board where it questions his motives.  I don't need to repeat an argument that's been done thousands of times here. 

I can lead you to water, but I fear I cannot force you to drink.

Once again you spew your ignorance. I didn't reference anything about the Holocaust at all, it was an analogy I used because I expected people to be smarter than you are being right now. Loghain did do those things, but he betrayed his King and basically his country just because he had a problem with Orlais.

Uh, yes you did. 

DomRod95 wrote...
...like saying Hitler wasn't
responsible for the deaths of the Jewish people because he wasn't the
one doing the actual killing.

Lying will get you nowhere.  These things need to be based on mutual trust and honesty.

Loghain did his best to save his king but because Cailan made that impossible, he settled on saving his country.  And he did.  He was completely reasonable in not trusting the Wardens either, given that they have fought against his nation in the past and the majority are currently from Orlais.  He made some mistakes, yes, but betrayel is not on his list of sins.

[MisterJB]

krul2k wrote...

quick question, do you know if Bioware consult ppl for things like wars an the strategies in them?

Considering the tactic employed in the Battle of Denerim was "CHAAAAAAAARGE!", I'm going to say "No!".

[DragonMage95]

krul2k wrote...

quick question, do you know if Bioware consult ppl for things like wars an the strategies in them?

They probably do their research on such things, but I dont think they would consult someone for it.

[DragonMage95]

BlueMagitek wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

Didn't compare them either. And Loghain is noble? HAHA. I'm wrong about his actions? HAHAHA. Either you're a troll or you're an idiot, perhaps a little bit of both.

Perhaps I'm being a tad ridiculous because you brought up reference to the Holocaust when you could have used any other analogy.  What is wrong with you?

And yes, Loghain is quite noble.  He defended his country from Orlais, Darkspawn and more.  But please, take a look for yourself; go into any topic about Loghain on the original Dragon Age board where it questions his motives.  I don't need to repeat an argument that's been done thousands of times here. 

I can lead you to water, but I fear I cannot force you to drink.

Once again you spew your ignorance. I didn't reference anything about the Holocaust at all, it was an analogy I used because I expected people to be smarter than you are being right now. Loghain did do those things, but he betrayed his King and basically his country just because he had a problem with Orlais.

Uh, yes you did. 

DomRod95 wrote...
...like saying Hitler wasn't
responsible for the deaths of the Jewish people because he wasn't the
one doing the actual killing.

Lying will get you nowhere.  These things need to be based on mutual trust and honesty.

Loghain did his best to save his king but because Cailan made that impossible, he settled on saving his country.  And he did.  He was completely reasonable in not trusting the Wardens either, given that they have fought against his nation in the past and the majority are currently from Orlais.  He made some mistakes, yes, but betrayel is not on his list of sins.

Not lying bud. As you can see I never said holocaust or said anything comparing Loghain to Hitler. I said SAYING LOGHAIN isnt RESPONSIBLE for the DEATHS AT OSTAGAR is like SAYING HITLER isnt RESPONSIBLE for the DEATHS OF THE JEWISH. I never said they were the same thing. Also what youre saying about Loghain is opinion and what im saying is pretty much fact because it happened. It's in the game, perhaps replay it. Now if you have nothing to do besides start an argument then i'd appreciate it if you left things alone and moved on.

[Plaintiff]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
Gamepley/story segregation.
And yes, it doesn't apply to mages because they have an excuse. Magic.[/quote]
Bull****. The Templars mow down every mage in the Gallows except those in your party, with little trouble. Leliana takes down two mages instantly with her rogue skills. We see mages getting their asses handed to them by normies all the time.

And no mage starts out just knowing the most powerful spells in their chosen schools. They have to learn, just like any Rogue or Fighter learns their abilities.

[quote]No, she doesn't. She is not a mage, there is no need to contain her. Any offenses against Chantry Law merit punishment to the offenders, not Elthina.[/quote]
Funnily enough, I base what people "deserve" based on their actions, not what they were born as. And I don't subscribe the the foul and bigoted laws of the Chantry. I don't give a **** what Elthina deserves according to he corrupt laws of her society, I'm talking about what she actually deserves.

If Elthina's only crime was being "ineffective" (more like grossly negligent), then I say we dress her up in some mage robes and lock her in a room with Kerras and Alrik. Then I'll sit back with a magazine and be "ineffective" for a few hours too.

[quote]
Just because people are being born with explosive belts, that doesn't mean we should ignore the danger they represent. Mages are not the same as mundanes, that simple fact will never change.[/quote]
I never said the danger should be ignored.

[quote]
Maybe Orsino should have informed Meredith he knew of the location of a demented blood mage. That might have helped her do her job.[/quote]
Maleficar could smear blood on themselves and dance naked in front of her, and it wouldn't make Meredith any better at her job.

[quote]My point is the same as always. Normal people such as you and me are imposed restrictions in our ordinary lives in order to account for the danger we might represent. All I ask is that the restrictions imposed upon the mages reflect the danger they might represent.[/quote]
Many restrictions in the real world are grossly unjust. Just like the restrictions of the Circle.

[quote]Would you argue that a 9mm and a nuclear bomb are the same thing and should be guarded in the same manner?[/quote]
No, but they are not living, thinking, feeling beings. The comparison is moronic. Mages are not like other human beings, but that does not mean they are not human beings, and their humanity needs to be taken into account. The Chantry created a toxic environment where mages are alienated and dehumanised.

If you create a monter, you don't get to complain when it stomps on your house.

[quote]
Just like any person might be beaten or raped just because s/he walked down the wrong street at the wrong hour.[/quote]
Which is not the same thing as having potential rapists barge into your home and drag your child away to their hideout.

[quote]At some point, you just have to accept that your son is not like other people and that babying him is endagering others.[/quote]
At some point, perhaps.

But the root cause of the problem is still the toxic anti-mage environment. There is no reason that the Chantry and Circles could not set up a system whereby Connor would recieve private tuition from a licensed mage. They had a millenium to work on creating a Circle system that would allow more freedom, reduce instances of abuse, and would even protect non-mages better. They certainly have the money to accomplish it. There's no good reason not to do it, except laziness and bigotry.

[quote]Decent human beings would realize that you can't endanger your entire community just to keep your child who will, in many way, have a better life in the Circle anyway.[/quote]
A community that stands by and watches while a child is dragged kicking and screaming down the street is a community that deserves to burn.

[quote]
Despite the fact that they have managed to contain the mage threat admirably for around 700 years?[/quote]
Because of it. Treating the mages like a threat that needs to be contained is exactly the problem.

[quote]Southern Thedas is still not a wasteland or Tevinter. That's a point in their favor.[/quote]
On the contrary, I'd prefer a wasteland. Thedosian society has little, if anything, to justify its continued existence.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 19 mars 2013 - 01:48 .

[BlueMagitek]

DomRod95 wrote...
Not lying bud. As you can see I never said holocaust or said anything comparing Loghain to Hitler. I said SAYING LOGHAIN isnt RESPONSIBLE for the DEATHS AT OSTAGAR is like SAYING HITLER isnt RESPONSIBLE for the DEATHS OF THE JEWISH. I never said they were the same thing. Also what youre saying about Loghain is opinion and what im saying is pretty much fact because it happened. It's in the game, perhaps replay it. Now if you have nothing to do besides start an argument then i'd appreciate it if you left things alone and moved on.

You made a clear reference to it, that's all that matters.  I think you need to calm down.  Relax, take the advice I gave you earlier and take ten minutes to have a drink of water, so to speak, I think you'll be refreshed.

No, not really.  In game supports my version.  Though it is good to know that you refuse to even acknowledge any of the blame on your warden for his failure at the Tower.  You didn't light the beacon on the signal, Alistar just guesses.  If you didn't notice, the Darkspawn horde is still descending from the mountain.  The plan was, as you don't recall, is to more or less catch the darkspawn in a rock/hard place situation and eradicate them all.  Loghain would flank them while Cailan took the brunt.  Guess what?  There are more Darkspawn, Cailan didn't want to wait for reinforcements and it ended up costing him dearly.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Funnily enough, I base what people "deserve" based on their actions, not what they were born as. And I don't subscribe the the foul and bigoted laws of the Chantry. I don't give a **** what Elthina deserves according to he corrupt laws of her society, I'm talking about what she actually deserves.

If Elthina's only crime was being "ineffective" (more like grossly negligent), then I say we dress her up in some mage robes and lock her in a room with Kerras and Alrik. Then I'll sit back with a magazine and be "ineffective" for a few hours too.

Tell you what, I'm going to give you a minute or an hour and let you think on the fact that you suggested an old lady who has shown nothing but kindness and respect to everyone she met should be gangraped.
I can agree with you that something should have been done to punish Karras and Alrik but what you are suggesting is that if a policeman, under the direct responsability of a pollice officer, is corrupt and one day, rapes and entire family, that the proper sanction to the police officer is to have his own family raped. Despite the fact there might be several other factors here at play that difficulted the officer's duty.

I'm going to assume that tensions just got a little high which can happen in heated debates. Otherwise, there really is not point in continuing this argument.