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[Majestico]

So sorry but I cannot believe there is a thread this long on such a boring, and frankly irrelevant subject!. Now do you think I should go with the blood red armour this season, or is so DA Awakenings?

[brushyourteeth]

Majestico wrote...

So sorry but I cannot believe there is a thread this long on such a boring, and frankly irrelevant subject!. Now do you think I should go with the blood red armour this season, or is so DA Awakenings?

Oh dear. Is being a jerk fashionable this season? I'm always the last to find out.

[Dave of Canada]

SgtElias wrote...

Just out of curiosity, do you never play mage characters, or do all your mage characters reach the same conclusions as well?

TL;DR - I play mages and no, they don't.

Long Version:
I've got two mages but they're completely different "people". First, a bit of context:
I've got a Cousland who was extremely vengeful against the Howes and the Grey Wardens, he basically does whatever he can in the name of power and influence. Ultimately, he ends up annihilating the Circle upon Cullen's request (which ends up with a dead Wynne), marrying Anora and sparing Loghain. He executes Alistair because he doesn't want anyone to challenge his claim to the throne. Dark Ritual is not performed, Loghain commits the sacrifice. No loose ends.

I've got an Amell who sees the Circle as his life and doesn't want to leave, he refuses to assist Jowan and is thrust into the events by Irving and sent with the Grey Wardens despite his wishes to remain. He ultimately grows to love the out-side world and doesn't desire to return back to the Circle, he helps everyone and dreams of the future where mages can be free like he is. He places Anora and Alistair on the throne with Loghain alive, doing the ritual as he cannot bear the thought of losing anyone.

So when I started Dragon Age 2, I wanted to make characters which would fundamentally oppose the Warden. My "true" and favorite playthrough is the Cousland, he follows the protagonist mold of someone seeking only self-power. However, the Amell was interesting in it's own right for a different purpose.

That's when I created my MageHawke to counter the Amell, he was an idealist who'd hope for a better future and strived towards the greater good similar to my second mage. He was too similar and I decided to deviate the character a little bit, picking more and more aggressive options as I imagined he grew to be cynical and eventually turns to Blood Magic.

In the end, he sides with the Templar out of simple belief that mages must be governed and the hypocritical belief that he's far superior than them because he bested them all. My favorite head-canon image is Mage-Hawke wearing the champion armor sitting upon the Viscount's throne, his claw-hand holding his chin as if he's contemplating what's next while Templar surround him for protection.

In an effort to counter my Cousland, I created my Warrior-Hawke who started with a harsh touch and treated everyone badly because he was pissed off at the loss of Loithering. As he began to lose his family, he did everything in his power to try and hold everyone together.

He was pro-Mage, supported his sister at every turn and was horrified when she was taken by the Templar because he felt that he failed her. In the end, he sides with Meredith because he wishes to try and minimize the damage being done to Kirkwall and doesn't want to be forced out of his home that he worked so hard to make for himself.

The "worst" decision I did with him which ended up with a lot of hate from other forumites was letting Meredith kill Bethany, it's not a decision I imagine the character taking lightly but it echos what she said in the Anders quest in Act 1 where she says she'd rather die than be tranquil and every mage which survives the Anullement is made tranquil.

So he'd sit upon the Viscount throne and be pissed off at the Templar and the fact that he effectively ruined his own life, he earned power despite never wanting it and lost everything in the process to get it.

So yes, I do create characters which deviate from the conclusion that the Chantry is the best thing. Though I have preference for certain characters / factions and will likely play pro-Templar on my first run of DA:I, it wouldn't be as fun if I couldn't deviate from it.

I'll never be "YAY MAGE FREEDOM" but having a character who's entire goal is about releasing mages when I have two previous playthroughs which are so vehemently opposed to it would be amazing, vice-versa.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 mars 2013 - 07:29 .

[Bizantura]

The oppressed always becomes the next conquerors, that cycle hasn't been broken yet!!
Anyway thats my very succint version after reading too much history.

Personally I had my fill also with the templar/mage thing but "inquisition" in the title doesn't bode well so if need be I will zap does religious zealots controll freaks to their own heaven back to G**.

Ah well, I am just human like everybody else.

[Commander Kurt]

I'm surprised that people find this to be a simple question, much as others probably balk at me being so undecided.

Is it okay to limit the freedom of one in order to ensure the freedom of another? I would say no. However, isolating contagious illnesses is quite alright, and so is banning weapons/explosives for personal use.

I don't know. If there were people walking around who were prone to suddenly explode, I don't know what I would support. Probably having them isolated.

[fchopin]

I agree with op that the writing will be harder this time as people will be a lot more critical for DA3 so Bioware should be very careful on the plot holes and silly ideas like the magic stone as an excuse to make every one crazy.

There are also some very interesting RPG’s that will be coming out in the next few years so the writers will have their hands full trying to compete.

David Gaider is a good writer but he will need to be at his best this time round.

Modifié par fchopin, 19 mars 2013 - 10:57 .

[DragonAgeLegend]

I have to be with the Mages on this. They have no right to be locked up in the circle for all their life. It's a terrible life to live, especially when being watched by Templars incase you ever go rogue. The Templars are basically encouraging rebellions in the circle just by being there.

So, I'm all for Mage freedom, so far I'm on chapter 8 in Asunder and I hate Knight Captain Evangeline, she's such a **&^&$!. Haha, so yeah, MAGES.

[DragonAgeLegend]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Mages FTW!

Guess you and I will meet on the battlefield

I'm with you Menrimi1 --- Hahaha! Renmiri1:wizard:

[DragonAgeLegend]

RaidenXS wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Oi, another DA2 bashing thread.

I really look forward to seeing the mage / templar conflict. It is an interesting story plot with no clear "good" or "evil" and very well done so far. Heavens the writers even managed to get some pro templar people!!

Thedas lived centuries without a Blight. To have blights every other game now would ruin the immersion

wtf?! I'm suprised they have pro-mages! Anders is a terrorist that killed an innocent person simply because she didn't want to be involved. Anders and the mages must be punished. Gregor needs to call the Right of Annulment at his Circle! Nothing but a complete purge will cleanse the land of evil!

She deserved what she got, she could have done something to end all of it before it even began but she chose not too. Mages aren't evil, you pro-templar 'people' make it out like they are. 

[Fast Jimmy]

And people wonder why I am so over Mages v. Templars... its because a thread like this pops up about once a week. I've seen enough "call to arms" rallies about Mage freedom and Templar justice on the BSN to say I would be fine in never seeing it again in an actual game.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And people wonder why I am so over Mages v. Templars... its because a thread like this pops up about once a week. I've seen enough "call to arms" rallies about Mage freedom and Templar justice on the BSN to say I would be fine in never seeing it again in an actual game.

But Bioware may lose the "Mage-Templar war to the last man" supporters (customers) in the next game by doing so!

[The Elder King]

wesam987 wrote...



She deserved what she got, she could have done something to end all of it before it even began but she chose not too. Mages aren't evil, you pro-templar 'people' make it out like they are. 

There were other people in the Chantry. Priests and templars.
At least Anders (in friendship path) said that he the victims deserves justice too, so he should be killed.
About the bolded part, as far as I know most of the pro-templars supporters don't mages are evil. They believe that mages are extremely dangerous, too far for being free outside.

[The Elder King]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And people wonder why I am so over Mages v. Templars... its because a thread like this pops up about once a week. I've seen enough "call to arms" rallies about Mage freedom and Templar justice on the BSN to say I would be fine in never seeing it again in an actual game.

It'd be hilarious if Bioware will resolve the war canonically, with no player input. The rage in the forums will be great, expecially if they'll go on a "compromise" route. Both sides will be pissed.

[Fast Jimmy]

hhh89 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And people wonder why I am so over Mages v. Templars... its because a thread like this pops up about once a week. I've seen enough "call to arms" rallies about Mage freedom and Templar justice on the BSN to say I would be fine in never seeing it again in an actual game.

It'd be hilarious if Bioware will resolve the war canonically, with no player input. The rage in the forums will be great, expecially if they'll go on a "compromise" route. Both sides will be pissed.

See? That's exactly what I think will actually happen.

A Big Bad will be manipulating both sides, with some key players in the Mages and the Templars secretly helping the Big Bad. If you side with Mages, you will root out the Mage traitor, leaving the Templars hurting and ultimately releasing the Big Bad to wreck havoc on the world. Vice versa if you side with the Templars. 

Once the Big Bad is out, both sides realized they have been duped and work together to bring down the enemy. Once the dust settles, they realize that they had more in common than they thought and a truce is made, where Mages can be free from the Circle, but Templars are there to help those who wish to train and keep safe from Abominations/Demons. 

The whole reason the topic even comes up is that the devs wanted a way to have mages roam the world. Running across a random mercernary group that has a mage should, in the game's lore, be an extremely rare thing. But it limits encounter design. If mages are free to be out in the world once they have passed their Harrowing, then there is no reason why the player couldn't encounter them later on.

I see this situation much more likely than Bioware respecting anything as vastly different as "all mages are still locked in towers" and "mages have the right to be anywhere in the world they want." They are too different outcomes to account for with the Save Import. Therefore, it will be somet type of railroaded outcome, where the mages have freedom, since that is the "better" outcome in terms of creating future content and encounter designs.

[Sejborg]

Bizantura wrote...

The oppressed always becomes the next conquerors, that cycle hasn't been broken yet!!
Anyway thats my very succint version after reading too much history.

Personally I had my fill also with the templar/mage thing but "inquisition" in the title doesn't bode well so if need be I will zap does religious zealots controll freaks to their own heaven back to G**.

Ah well, I am just human like everybody else.

Say that to Tibet and the Native Americans.

[Wulfram]

I don't really think the mage/templar thing is going to have any sort of neat resolution at all. Why write out a potentially handy plot hook?

Rather the setting will end up with a new normal where mages aren't locked up in towers, but also aren't safe from the Templars. Whether they can operate openly with the protection of the local authorities or need to hide will likely depend on who is in charge in the region, which the player may be able to influence, but I doubt there'll be any grand bargain between Mages and Templars.

Basically, I'm thinking that the Templars will end up being the Children of Light from Wheel of Time. And some of the more respectable mages might set up something like the White Tower.

[MisterJB]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
I'm more concerned about the kindness and
respect Elthina shows to people she hasn't met, but are still under her
care. The mages of the Gallows.

She is either aware of their
suffering and does nothing, in which case she is evil. Or she is
unaware, in which case she is so grossly incompetent that it boggles the
mind. Or she is aware, vaguely, but does not actually understand, in
which case she needs to be made to.

You excuse Elthina by saying
that she is simply "ineffective". My point is that being ineffecitve is
not an excuse, given what the mages suffer. You are repulsed because I
said we should allow Elthina to be raped, but that is exactly what she is allowing, every day that she fails to take action.

For what it's worth, I would not arrange for Elthina to be sexually assaulted, were it actually in my power to do so.

I would just kill her.
[/quote]
There is a difference between "Ineficacy" and "Innaction". Elthina is guilty of the first but not the second. She
was clearly doing her best to juggle the needs of all groups around
which includes keeping all mages under lock and key but alo stoping
Meredith from calling the Right of Annulment.
How exactly is she supposed to be aware of templars breaking the laws of the Chantry? For instance, Alain was raped by Karras. We
know that because it's a game but how is she supposed to know that?
Alain whispered it to the Champion, he did not report it out of fear.
And, even if he had, what evidence does he have he is telling the truth?

There
is probrably more Elthina could have done but she is one of the most
kind-hearted people in Thedas and did not deserve what that monster
Anders did to her,


[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Bull****. The Templars mow down every mage in the Gallows except those in your party, with little trouble. Leliana takes down two mages instantly with her rogue skills. We see mages getting their asses handed to them by normies all the time.[/quote]
Templars have special abilities that enable them to fight mages which can't be applied to the population at large.
Leliana is an extremely skilled rogue who fought in the frontlines of a Blight. It's not just any person who could have done that.

[quote]And no mage starts out just knowing the most powerful spells in their chosen schools. They have to learn, just like any Rogue or Fighter learns their abilities.[/quote]
And the ablities of a Warrior or Rogue consist of swords, knives, bows while a mage learns to summor firestorms out of god damn nowhere. It's not the same thing.

[quote]
Maleficar could smear blood on themselves and dance naked in front of her, and it wouldn't make Meredith any better at her job.[/quote]
Meredith destroyed the mage underground, captured all mages who escaped in Acts 2 through 3 except for the three Hawke does and Hawke is only called because she wishes for him to see what Templars have to deal with daily.
She is not incompetent but perhaps she would be able to save more people if the First Enchanterswasn't activelly assisting blood mages sucha s Quentin.

[quote]
Many restrictions in the real world are grossly unjust. Just like the restrictions of the Circle.[/quote]
Many restrictions are in place because they are necessary and breaking them would cause nothing but suffering in the short and long run for everyone involved. Just like the restrictions of the Circle.

[quote]
No, but they are not living, thinking, feeling beings. The comparison is moronic. Mages are not like other human beings, but that does not mean they are not human beings, and their humanity needs to be taken into account. The Chantry created a toxic environment where mages are alienated and dehumanised.[/quote]
The Chantry takes their humanity into account. It's why mages are fed, clothed, educated, givenf reedoms and rights.
If the Chantry didn't take a mage's humanity into consideration, they would just do the same as the qunari do.

[quote]If you create a monter, you don't get to complain when it stomps on your house.[/quote]
That is a bold claim but in DA2, I saw a single mage who could rigthfully claim templars led him to blood magic and that was Alain.

[quote]
Which is not the same thing as having potential rapists barge into your home and drag your child away to their hideout.[/quote]
Just like Vaughan does? Or the orlesian chevaliers?
Freedom didn't help the peasants there.

[quote]
At some point, perhaps.

But the root cause of the problem is still the toxic anti-mage environment. There is no reason that the Chantry and Circles could not set up a system whereby Connor would recieve private tuition from a licensed mage. They had a millenium to work on creating a Circle system that would allow more freedom, reduce instances of abuse, and would even protect non-mages better. They certainly have the money to accomplish it. There's no good reason not to do it, except laziness and bigotry.[/quote]
You are describing the Circle System. This system was meant as a compromise exactly to ensure those things.
Mages would be granted freedom to practice their abilties but they would do so in isolated locations so mundanes would be better protected. And to prevent abuses, laws were created that decreed that no templar may Tranquilise a mage without the First Enchanter and the Knight Commander's permission and that the First Enchanter has the final say in matter such as sending the Circle to fight a Blight.
With time and sufficient trust, mages would be granted more freedoms such as Wynne was.

The people of Thedas have already had these ideas, they just haven't always trasnlated as they should because, inevitably, one group rises itself above the other because that's just what people do. It's not bigotry and it's not laziness, it's just easier said than done.

[quote]
A community that stands by and watches while a child is dragged kicking and screaming down the street is a community that deserves to burn.[/quote]
People are not entirely good or entirely bad, they are a mix between the two. Not everyone is a hero but that doesn't mean everyone who is not a hero deserves to die.
There are good reasons why mages need to be sent to the tower. I'm all for sending both a templar and a mage to calmly explain why mages belong in the Circle but it must still be mandatory.

[quote]
Because of it. Treating the mages like a threat that needs to be contained is exactly the problem.[/quote]
Mages ARE a threat. It feels good to recite grandiose speechs about how we're all human but the truth is that equality between mundanes and mages is as likely as equality between wolves and sheep.
At some point, the wolves are going to realize that the sheep are not equals. They are food.
Likewise, it might last for a generation or two but, inevitable, mages are going to realize that they have phenomenal cosmic powers that normal people don't and that this gives them the ability to rule over them.

[quote]
On the contrary, I'd prefer a wasteland. Thedosian society has little, if anything, to justify its continued existence.[/quote]
Thedosian society is not perfect but even if you don't care about mundanes, the truth is that as wasteland would mean worse living conditions to EVERYONE, mages included.
A lawless wasteland was what Southern Thedas was like before Drakon and the Chantyr unified it. Now, there's a society of law and order, mostly, and just because it's not an utopia, that doesn't mean we should just burn it down.

[Beerfish]

Well this wasn't supposed to be a simply a mage/chantry thread at all, more to the point that the writers will have to be skillful in how they handle it but i guess it has devolved into the eternal debate anyway.

[lil yonce]

I think Elthina wanted to do more. She is a genuinely kind individual. But there just wasn't much she could do. The Chantry/Templars seized power in Kirkwall and I think Meredith was central in keeping it.

From some of the codex entries it sounds like gaining control of the city was a goal established by Beatrix III before Meredith's appointment to KC.The growing Templar army, pressuring Viscount Threnhold, having the Templars get involved in the conflict despite the current KC's objections, having the Templars appoint the new Viscount Marlowe Dumar.

Meredith turned out to be the right Templar for the job. A native of Kirkwall. Thoroughly indoctrinated Templar. Talented. Hailed as Hero after ousting Threnhold. In her time as KC she worked to establish relations with the Nobility as evidenced by her apology letter to the DuPuis family. She can establish a relationship with Hawke. I don't think she's easily replaceable.

I don't know that Elthina crusading for Meredith's removal in the name of Mage Rights would go over well with the rest of the Chantry. Internal politics. I think she would have to have a much better reason to have Meredith removed.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 19 mars 2013 - 04:39 .

[terdferguson123]

IanPolaris wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

At least David Gaider is still the lead writer on this one so as far as story goes DA:I should be fine. Mass Effect showed that switching lead writers halfway into the series is a distinctly bad thing.

Actually to be honest (and admittedly a bit mean), this is one of the things that worries me about DA3/DA:I.  I say that because to my knowledge DG is still on record of saying that DA2 was a great game (when I think by now most people know otherwise).  If the person writing DA:I is the same one that did DA2 and doesn't recognize what went wrong, then why should I think that DA:I is going to be better?

-Polaris

DA2 was a great game and i think most people believe that.The problem that you are stating is a well known problem in any entertainment medium where the people who enjoyed it don't feel the need to constantly discuss it. (this is an aspect of Murphy's law, that the positive never sees nearly as much discussion as the negative.) But those who disliked it are much more vocal, and appear to be in some kind of majority due to how loud they are, even if statistically that is not accurate. It's the same problem that Mass Effect 3 and it's ending ran into. In fact, I didn't even know there was a fuss over the ending until I went onto the forums after finishing the game. I loved every aspect of ME3, including the original ending because I enjoyed the openness of it, and never expected the kind of backlash it recieved until I went onto the forums. Mass Effect 3 is my favorite in the series, and one of the best games I have ever had the pleasure to play.

The point is: I think many people forget that internet opinions do not ever constitute the majority, because most people who play games do not visit forums. I know of 6 people off the top of my head who loved DA2 and never go to Bioware social or review games on metacritic.

Do I believe that DA2 was better than DAO? In some aspects yes, but I think they both excelled in different ways, and I enjoyed both games. For the record my favorite game of all time is Baldur's Gate 2. (I feel like this last aspect needed to be said because it seems like on these forums if you enjoyed DA2 you are automatically labelled a console kid who only plays COD, which is an extremely shameful and elitist viewpoint, but I suppose thats the viewpoint on Bioware Social these days. Sad.)

Modifié par terdferguson123, 19 mars 2013 - 05:42 .

[IanPolaris]

terdferguson123 wrote...

DA2 was a great game and i think most people believe that.

I dispute that.  In fact if you look around even Bioware/EA is now admitting that DA2 simply wasn't very good.  Why else would you cancell the planned expansions and DLCs?  Sure DA2 has some people that liked it (almost all games do), but given the sales record and how it's been reviewed and treated over the past year, I think it's safe to say that DA2 is generally regarded as a mediocre game at best (and usually is regarded as a poor one especially by Bioware standards).

-Polaris

[David Gaider]

IanPolaris wrote...
I dispute that.  In fact if you look around even Bioware/EA is now admitting that DA2 simply wasn't very good.

So which is it, then? Do I think that DA2 was a great game (which you say I'm on record as believing), or do I think DA2 simply wasn't very good? Please, by all means, speak for both myself and BioWare in general. I'd like to hear it.

[IanPolaris]

David Gaider wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I dispute that.  In fact if you look around even Bioware/EA is now admitting that DA2 simply wasn't very good.

So which is it, then? Do I think that DA2 was a great game (which you say I'm on record as believing), or do I think DA2 simply wasn't very good? Please, by all means, speak for both myself and BioWare in general. I'd like to hear it.

If Bioware thought DA2 was good, then the expansion wouldn't have been cancelled.  You aren't the only one in Bioware.  I have already expressed my concerns that if an author feels a game was a great game (when it wasn't), then that author would be less inclined to fix the mistakes from said game.  That is all.

-Polaris