96 réponses à ce sujet

[Applepie_Svk]

Nykara wrote...

Other then the fact that there is one thing here being missed entirely and that is the Crucible which was deisgned by alll of the previous races to CHANGE the catalyst to do what they wanted it to do. Stop the Reapers. My question is this:

Was the first two options always there? Control and Synthesis and the Crucible simply added the destroy option ONLY or did the crucible in fact add ALL of the options.

If it was the first one then control and synthesis could in fact still be a lie, and indoctrination or whatever. A way for the Reapers to win this cycle in any case.

If it was the second one then all options should in fact be correct, and simply a choice as to which Shepard thinks would be the best option to take for the cycle they are in.

The cruicible did change the catalyst that much is pretty obvious, but by how much? All choices or just one?

There is no need for these questions, you have to ask yourself two simple questions instead:

How could they made a device wich purpose was to change unkown entity which was never before the conversation with Shepard observed by anyone ?

Or

How do you know that Intelligence and Catalyst are the same entity ?

[Nykara]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Nykara wrote...

Other then the fact that there is one thing here being missed entirely and that is the Crucible which was deisgned by alll of the previous races to CHANGE the catalyst to do what they wanted it to do. Stop the Reapers. My question is this:

Was the first two options always there? Control and Synthesis and the Crucible simply added the destroy option ONLY or did the crucible in fact add ALL of the options.

If it was the first one then control and synthesis could in fact still be a lie, and indoctrination or whatever. A way for the Reapers to win this cycle in any case.

If it was the second one then all options should in fact be correct, and simply a choice as to which Shepard thinks would be the best option to take for the cycle they are in.

The cruicible did change the catalyst that much is pretty obvious, but by how much? All choices or just one?

There is no need for these questions, you have to ask yourself two simple questions instead:

How could they made a device wich purpose was to change unkown entity which was never before the conversation with Shepard observed by anyone ?

Or

How do you know that Intelligence and Catalyst are the same entity ?

Okay I will bite on this one hehe or try to.

If you have ever seen stargate there is one scientist in it Dr Mckay who can work with, manipulate, repair, change and understand technology of the ancients without ever having seen that technology before because he has a brilliant scientific mind that most people would not be able to understand or comprehend, and he was just one person from one species.

Here you have the brilliant scientific minds from many races all working together. Not only that, you have the brilliant scientific minds of many races over many different cycles all working together. All of who have had experience, at least in some form or another with AI programming. The catalyst IS an AI. The Crucible was designed to change that AI's base programming to include another option ( at least one, maybe 3, that part is in question ). It is entirely feesable.

[Franky Figgs]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Franky Figgs wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Franky Figgs wrote...

Drewton wrote...

Franky Figgs wrote...

The crucible is a Leviathan AI. The Leviathan had a thrall problem largely due to the organic/synthetic conflict.

Agreed about IT, but I think the "AI" is Harbinger.

The crucible didn't lie about a single thing. It is a Leviathan AI controlling the Reapers. It takes it's cues from its creator - control.

Catalyst lied and deceive...

For example Catalyst said that he believed that pattern for Crucible was eradicated cycles ago, while Vendetta disproved this with fact that Crucible was sabotaged from within by indoctrinated splinter group just last cycle.

Or he was also deceiving when he said that he is the Catalyst and Citadel is his home, while Vendetta said that Citadel is Catalyst and by using together with Crucible it releasing dark energies against a Reapers. One way or another there comes a disbelief from fact that either Leviathans or the Intelligence were messing with Crucible, if structure wasn´t created without their intervention.

I admit I don't have a good understanding on the crucible's existence. That's an open book as far as I can tell so far.

The catalyst is a reaper. In fact it's the first reaper. It reaped up the leviathans. It speaks with 'us' and 'we' when speaking of the reapers. It dicsourages Shepard to pick destory. It encourages synthesis. When Shepard states about TIM and control- "So the illusive man was right". The catalyst say's "yes, but he could not control cause we controled him". Haha, but TIM controls Shepard at the citadel control pannel, lol. So who's really in control.

The catalyst is a reaper overlord and wants self preservation for his reaper buddies.
What ending choices do the reapers live and shep dies?
What ending choice do the reapers die and shep survives?

The answers to these questions are all you need to know about the endings.

The Reapers are thralls. The first thralls of the Leviathan AI.
Just as EDI will switch her programming to emulate Shepard's characteristics to find meaning in her existence, a Leviathan AI sees the galaxy the way a Leviathan would.
It's not trying to be mean... it doesn't comprehend us as anything but parts of itself that need to get under it's control.

As far as why it gives us options, consider this...

The crucible is a big deal. It proves something. That the thralls have expressed themselves in the galaxy in a way that is equal to, or greater than, the Leviathans.
That's why it changes the equation. Shepard just happen to be the closest person at the time to make a decision for the rest of us.
-The Leviathan AI will allow us to continue to express our freedom with the Reapers gone, at our own peril.
-It will allow an avatar to take it's place and collect thralls as that avatar would see fit. TIM couldn't do this even if he got the chance because he was already a thrall.
-Or it will allow Shepard to finish the Leviathan mission and connect the whole galaxy to it.

The crucible will allow the catalysis to consider this - "Maybe there is an evolution that is greater than the Leviathan? Maybe they should start from scratch or helm the ship? If I indoctrinate them.. maybe not."

Modifié par Franky Figgs, 19 mars 2013 - 04:51 .

[Singu]

Hey dude, it's the Catalyst/Starchild - not the Crucible. If you want to educate us you need to get the basics right.

Edit: Or maybe the Crucible IS the Catalyst/Starchild. And that he made the Alliance build the biggest patch in the history of patches by deliberatly leaking the designs for the Crucible.

Modifié par Singu, 19 mars 2013 - 02:01 .

[AlanC9]

Franky Figgs wrote...


1. Indoctrination theory is correct and the crucible isnt lying about a thing.

At the risk of giving aid and comfort to a troll thread, how can both of these be true?

Modifié par AlanC9, 19 mars 2013 - 02:43 .

[Hadeedak]

It's just one of those things.

[Applepie_Svk]

Nykara wrote...



Okay I will bite on this one hehe or try to.

If you have ever seen stargate there is one scientist in it Dr Mckay who can work with, manipulate, repair, change and understand technology of the ancients without ever having seen that technology before because he has a brilliant scientific mind that most people would not be able to understand or comprehend, and he was just one person from one species.

Here you have the brilliant scientific minds from many races all working together. Not only that, you have the brilliant scientific minds of many races over many different cycles all working together. All of who have had experience, at least in some form or another with AI programming. The catalyst IS an AI. The Crucible was designed to change that AI's base programming to include another option ( at least one, maybe 3, that part is in question ). It is entirely feesable.

The problem is that to construct a Crucible you have to know two things : 
1. that Reapers even exists
2. their weakness

Without knowing that Reapers even exists you don´t need a built a Crucible,and with knowlendge that Reapers exist but without exposing to their weakness you can´t build Crucible again. It´s like with computer firewall, firewall can stop most of the attacks but not all because the attackers are trying to expose the weakness inside the firewalls.

[Franky Figgs]

Singu wrote...

Hey dude, it's the Catalyst/Starchild - not the Crucible. If you want to educate us you need to get the basics right.

Edit: Or maybe the Crucible IS the Catalyst/Starchild. And that he made the Alliance build the biggest patch in the history of patches by deliberatly leaking the designs for the Crucible.

I've already corrected my mistake a while back, lower your backhand.
And I've admitted I don't really understand the origins of the crucible. You're idea is intriguing, but the Catalysis say's that the crucible changed him. It implays that he was already something before the crucible and something different with it.

[Franky Figgs]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Nykara wrote...



Okay I will bite on this one hehe or try to.

If you have ever seen stargate there is one scientist in it Dr Mckay who can work with, manipulate, repair, change and understand technology of the ancients without ever having seen that technology before because he has a brilliant scientific mind that most people would not be able to understand or comprehend, and he was just one person from one species.

Here you have the brilliant scientific minds from many races all working together. Not only that, you have the brilliant scientific minds of many races over many different cycles all working together. All of who have had experience, at least in some form or another with AI programming. The catalyst IS an AI. The Crucible was designed to change that AI's base programming to include another option ( at least one, maybe 3, that part is in question ). It is entirely feesable.

The problem is that to construct a Crucible you have to know two things : 
1. that Reapers even exists
2. their weakness

Without knowing that Reapers even exists you don´t need a built a Crucible,and with knowlendge that Reapers exist but without exposing to their weakness you can´t build Crucible again. It´s like with computer firewall, firewall can stop most of the attacks but not all because the attackers are trying to expose the weakness inside the firewalls.

Seems like a bit of an inside job to me too. ...Keepers maybe??

[o Ventus]

I was wondering where my drugs went.

OP, I would like them back.

[Kabooooom]

This thread is fresh and new and OP must be a genius since he has stated three things that no one here has ever thought of before- especially not to such an extent that they are now cliche. Bravo.

[Singu]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Nykara wrote...



Okay I will bite on this one hehe or try to.

If you have ever seen stargate there is one scientist in it Dr Mckay who can work with, manipulate, repair, change and understand technology of the ancients without ever having seen that technology before because he has a brilliant scientific mind that most people would not be able to understand or comprehend, and he was just one person from one species.

Here you have the brilliant scientific minds from many races all working together. Not only that, you have the brilliant scientific minds of many races over many different cycles all working together. All of who have had experience, at least in some form or another with AI programming. The catalyst IS an AI. The Crucible was designed to change that AI's base programming to include another option ( at least one, maybe 3, that part is in question ). It is entirely feesable.

The problem is that to construct a Crucible you have to know two things : 
1. that Reapers even exists
2. their weakness

Without knowing that Reapers even exists you don´t need a built a Crucible,and with knowlendge that Reapers exist but without exposing to their weakness you can´t build Crucible again. It´s like with computer firewall, firewall can stop most of the attacks but not all because the attackers are trying to expose the weakness inside the firewalls.

Or you could be doing  a "Jodie Foster". Construct an unkown piece of machinery with the aid of every country of earth without knowing what the hell it does. What happens if I push this button right here?

You don't have to know anything to construct the Crucible. All you need is the designs, tools, motivation and curiosity to do it. Pretty much what the Alliance did in ME3.

Modifié par Singu, 19 mars 2013 - 02:11 .

[Nykara]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Nykara wrote...



Okay I will bite on this one hehe or try to.

If you have ever seen stargate there is one scientist in it Dr Mckay who can work with, manipulate, repair, change and understand technology of the ancients without ever having seen that technology before because he has a brilliant scientific mind that most people would not be able to understand or comprehend, and he was just one person from one species.

Here you have the brilliant scientific minds from many races all working together. Not only that, you have the brilliant scientific minds of many races over many different cycles all working together. All of who have had experience, at least in some form or another with AI programming. The catalyst IS an AI. The Crucible was designed to change that AI's base programming to include another option ( at least one, maybe 3, that part is in question ). It is entirely feesable.

The problem is that to construct a Crucible you have to know two things : 
1. that Reapers even exists
2. their weakness

Without knowing that Reapers even exists you don´t need a built a Crucible,and with knowlendge that Reapers exist but without exposing to their weakness you can´t build Crucible again. It´s like with computer firewall, firewall can stop most of the attacks but not all because the attackers are trying to expose the weakness inside the firewalls.

I always assumed that the first race who started construction did so after their war with the Reapers had already started. Other races as well, but none of them ever got it completed in time. It's construction was always kept from the Reapers as well so they never knew about it and never had a chance to 'fix the firewall' to stop the attackers from getting in. When they found out about it in this cycle, clearly they were concerned about it.

[AlexMBrennan]

I've noticed a few things are not being discussed around here

Yeah. Because BSN has rules. IT is confined to IT groups.

[Franky Figgs]

AlanC9 wrote...

Franky Figgs wrote...


1. Indoctrination theory is correct and the crucible isnt lying about a thing.

At the risk of gibpving aid and comfort to a troll thread, how can both of these be true?

As I stated earlier - Indoctrination is one embracing the point of view of a thrall. The logic required to do that is up to the thrall. For Shepard it was the organic/synthetic conflict. Which is a real problem to worry about for a thrall, but a greater conflict for someones who's very being is in controlling thralls.

Modifié par Franky Figgs, 19 mars 2013 - 04:10 .

[draken-heart]

Still, I think the point of the ending, is that there is no point.

[Franky Figgs]

Kabooooom wrote...

This thread is fresh and new and OP must be a genius... Bravo.

I read the forums everyday since last year and know what the long exhausted topics are here too.

I'll take it anyways. Thanks

Modifié par Franky Figgs, 19 mars 2013 - 02:27 .

[Singu]

Nykara wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Nykara wrote...



Okay I will bite on this one hehe or try to.

If you have ever seen stargate there is one scientist in it Dr Mckay who can work with, manipulate, repair, change and understand technology of the ancients without ever having seen that technology before because he has a brilliant scientific mind that most people would not be able to understand or comprehend, and he was just one person from one species.

Here you have the brilliant scientific minds from many races all working together. Not only that, you have the brilliant scientific minds of many races over many different cycles all working together. All of who have had experience, at least in some form or another with AI programming. The catalyst IS an AI. The Crucible was designed to change that AI's base programming to include another option ( at least one, maybe 3, that part is in question ). It is entirely feesable.

The problem is that to construct a Crucible you have to know two things : 
1. that Reapers even exists
2. their weakness

Without knowing that Reapers even exists you don´t need a built a Crucible,and with knowlendge that Reapers exist but without exposing to their weakness you can´t build Crucible again. It´s like with computer firewall, firewall can stop most of the attacks but not all because the attackers are trying to expose the weakness inside the firewalls.

I always assumed that the first race who started construction did so after their war with the Reapers had already started. Other races as well, but none of them ever got it completed in time. It's construction was always kept from the Reapers as well so they never knew about it and never had a chance to 'fix the firewall' to stop the attackers from getting in. When they found out about it in this cycle, clearly they were concerned about it.

I assumed it must've been an inside job that started it at some point. Some renegade elements within the Reaper/Reaper collaborators that spread the design. Or the Starchild himself did it after having an acute case of depression from an endless row of cycles in total solitude, well unless you include his less than chatty Keeper minions.

Once it was recognized as the only potential silver bullett against the Reapers it was ensured eternal life in the tombs of dead civiliazations waiting for the next cycle's pinnacle civilization to scavenge the data and realize the importance of at least attempting to build it in preparation for a potential attack.

But the level of sophistication and interaction the finished Crucible has with the Catalyst/Starchild would at least point to the potential that it was originally some internal struggle within the Reaper faction that leaked the information of where their 'achilles heel' was.

Modifié par Singu, 19 mars 2013 - 02:24 .

[AlanC9]

Franky Figgs wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Franky Figgs wrote...
1. Indoctrination theory is correct and the crucible isnt lying about a thing.

At the risk of gibpving aid and comfort to a troll thread, how can both of these be true?

As I stated earlier - Indoctrination is one embracing the point of view of a thrall. The logic required to do that is up to the thrall. For Shepard it was the organic/synthetic conflict. Which is a real problem to worry about for a thrall, but a greater conflict for someones who's very being is in control thralls.

Huh? So there's no lying because Shepard's making it all up in his own head? Well, I suppose if Shepard isn't actually talking to anyone there's no one lying, all right.

[RedBeardJim]

Franky Figgs wrote...

1. Indoctrination theory is correct and the crucible isnt lying about a thing.

2. The crucible isn't invested in solving a organic/synthetic problem. He is intested in solving thrall problem. 

You got something of a self-contradiction problem there.

[Reap_ii]

OP makes as much nonsense as the ending

[Franky Figgs]

AlanC9 wrote...

Franky Figgs wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Franky Figgs wrote...
1. Indoctrination theory is correct and the crucible isnt lying about a thing.

At the risk of gibpving aid and comfort to a troll thread, how can both of these be true?

As I stated earlier - Indoctrination is one embracing the point of view of a thrall. The logic required to do that is up to the thrall. For Shepard it was the organic/synthetic conflict. Which is a real problem to worry about for a thrall, but a greater conflict for someones who's very being is in control thralls.

Huh? So there's no lying because Shepard's making it all up in his own head? Well, I suppose if Shepard isn't actually talking to anyone there's no one lying, all right.

Shepard is talking to a Leviathan AI not himself. And the Leviathan AI told the truth from his own perspective.
Did you see how the Leviathan communicated with Shepard in the DLC? That is how they talk.
They don't learn language in so much as they go directly to the source of the mind and use that minds own understanding to express it's thoughts. Shepard isn't making up the message he is just filling in the messenger with a symbol of something he wants to save - a select impression the Leviathan AI uses to elicit the emotion nessecary for Shepard make a decision towards synthesis.

Modifié par Franky Figgs, 19 mars 2013 - 03:43 .

[Franky Figgs]

RedBeardJim wrote...

Franky Figgs wrote...

1. Indoctrination theory is correct and the crucible isnt lying about a thing.

2. The crucible isn't invested in solving a organic/synthetic problem. He is intested in solving thrall problem. 

You got something of a self-contradiction problem there.

Please elaborate. 

[Franky Figgs]

Reap_ii wrote...

OP makes as much nonsense as the ending

I'll convince you if you care to try to debunk me.

[Strangewrex]

Heh, This should be good.