55 réponses à ce sujet

[ZeroR3D]

Yes, this is another RtO thread.  Specifically, I'm curious about how all these high priority bugs are being discovered at the last minute.  As someone who's worked in software development, I'm no stranger to finding bugs at the last minute.  What I'm curious about is the following scenario I've created in my mind.

Please bear with me.

So, you are Bioware/EA.  You've developed this awesome game called Dragon Age: Origins.  This typically means that by the time the game's gone gold, there are literally no game-breaking bugs in the release.  There obviously can be low-severity, low-priority defects and issues being worked on for 0-day or post-release patch.  But having gone through the necessary QA process to remove any high-severity, high-priority defects, you would have established test cases/scenarios that cover (more or less) every aspect of the game, from graphics, text/voice dialogue, to the stats system, interactions, etc.  We'll call this the general "framework" of the game.

So, this is where I get confused.  If you don't add anything to the framework of the game, like by creating a piece of DLC such as RtO, and you have an established methodology to test that framework, how can it be possible for game-breaking high-severity, high-priority defects to pop up at the last minute?

To provide an example, are there specializations in RtO that are new to the game?  If not, why would RtO affect specializations unlock status at all?

I understand that I'm not privvy to the managment of code nor how the code is written for DA:O and I'm probably wayy oversimplifying it, but really?  Last minute defects, three or more times?  In my experience, that would be the result of poor project management, poor source control, poor change management, poor QA, poorly written code, BS'ing the end users, or all of the above.  That may come off a bit harsh and I really don't expect an official response from Bioware/EA, but I am VERY curious to know how this type of development can be explained.  So if anyone works in SD, or has some interesting ideas, please don't hesitate to speak up.

That's all, folks.

Modifié par ZeroR3D, 14 janvier 2010 - 06:05 .

[Fexelea]

My guess: the team got overly ambitious by making a massive game go multiplatform with strict deadlines when they don't have the experience in all of them and are not completely familiar with the internal processes involved. So time crunches but the marketing plan says x so you have to push forward, miscommunication arises and things are overlooked as there is not enough time. Eventually everyone realizes they bit more than they can chew and they need to ammend the plan to allow for more flexibility, however it is too late and corporate bureoucracy has taken its tall... So, somewhere, a bug manages to pass through.

[Kepha]

As a software engineer, any complex system is prone to failure, and code is hardly ever completely bug free. Its impossible to cover all possible permutations in test, and there's always the possibility lurking that your users will try something you didn't and things will go boom.



Given the fact that the Title Update was fixing problems in achievements, and apparently the unlocking of specializations is tied to achievements (at least on consoles), its really not that unbelievable that a bug was introduced when they had to go in and touch the code to fix the problem they were addressing. But if you're focused on fixing the achievements, and it sort of slips under the radar that specializations are also tied to that system, you might not think that you have to test the specializations too.

[ZeroR3D]

Kepha wrote...

As a software engineer, any complex system is prone to failure, and code is hardly ever completely bug free. Its impossible to cover all possible permutations in test, and there's always the possibility lurking that your users will try something you didn't and things will go boom.

I agree that there's no such thing as completely bug-free, what I'm talking about is having high-priority defects pass QA enough times to then show up at the very last minute.  Thrice.  That seems a bit unbelievable to me, if we assume Bioware, with their many years of expertise, are a professional company with their shizz together.

Given the fact that the Title Update was fixing problems in achievements, and apparently the unlocking of specializations is tied to achievements (at least on consoles), its really not that unbelievable that a bug was introduced when they had to go in and touch the code to fix the problem they were addressing. But if you're focused on fixing the achievements, and it sort of slips under the radar that specializations are also tied to that system, you might not think that you have to test the specializations too.

I just read the RtO release thread and I must've missed that the specialization bug was linked to the 360-only title update.  That makes it a poor example of what I'm talking about.  But if they were going to release it anyway (not knowing the spec bug was in there), and since the PC-version *should* not share the same code for title update, wouldn't that make you think the PC version is ready to go?

Modifié par ZeroR3D, 14 janvier 2010 - 06:21 .

[Abriael_CG]

You never know what can conflict with what, because code is rarely completely "clean" of cross references and influences between various parts. In this case, from what they said, the problem doesn't seem to come directly from RTO, but from the Xbox 360 title update that solves the appearence of some achievements. Achievements and specializations are interlinked, so probably the problem lays there.

As Kepha said, no complex system is safe from failure. The main problem here is not the failure itself, that can happen, as much as the lack of communication and of a publically declared roadmap for the solution of such failure.

And yes, from the (very little) they told so far, I DO believe that the PC version is ready for release, and i will be VERY disappointed if they don't release it at the very least tomorrow (I can understand that the bug on the 360 version may have influenced their schedule as a whole, one day of further delay is acceptable), unless they clearly tell us that the problem is across all platforms.

If the problem is localized on Xbox 360 only there's absolutely no justification to delay the release of the other platforms further. The only reason would be to appease Microsoft by not releasing on the other platforms before theirs, and that's something I honestly can not consider acceptable. Not that it wouldn't be the first time that Microsoft's demands damage the gaming community as a whole...

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 14 janvier 2010 - 06:29 .

[Eragondragonrider]

As a person that designs video games I can understand how this happen, It maybe the DLC that caused this but mostly likely the title patch update of achievements that was suppose to fix the achievement issue with the game but it didn't and broke the game instead. My thinking is that either one of the lines of code got mixed up some how or its the human factor etc spelling errors, programmers not writing the code the same way as everyone else does, and to many multiple languages of coding trying to work together. I am working from a personal experience with some of the coding in the game by trying to make the DO:A toolset with modding armor and items, plus more character variety in-game for the xbox, trying to get the game controller and languages to work has been frustrating, so far I have a list of small bug 10 pages deep and its growing each time a solve one problem.

[ZeroR3D]

I would like to think the devs have their code for 360/PS3 branched from whatever source code is used on the PC side. I'd like to even think the code is isolated between all platforms but that would probably be impractical.



But we're getting slightly sidetracked here. My original question was, how do game-breaking bugs pass the testing cycles leading up to release date only to show up at the last minute?

[Fexelea]

Because Bioware "recently" underwent drastic change and they are taking 2 really massive games in multiple platforms in a very short space of time, so it makes sense that they have less room for testing.

[Eragondragonrider]

ZeroR3D wrote...

I would like to think the devs have their code for 360/PS3 branched from whatever source code is used on the PC side. I'd like to even think the code is isolated between all platforms but that would probably be impractical.

But we're getting slightly sidetracked here. My original question was, how do game-breaking bugs pass the testing cycles leading up to release date only to show up at the last minute?

Because its about money, most big game companies policy is get the money first then we might worry about fixing the game.

[ZeroR3D]

Fexelea wrote...

Because Bioware "recently" underwent
drastic change and they are taking 2 really massive games in multiple
platforms in a very short space of time, so it makes sense that they
have less room for testing.

I haven't been keeping up with industry news, what are the drastic changes and how recently?

Eragondragonrider wrote...

ZeroR3D wrote...

I would like to think the devs have their code for 360/PS3 branched from whatever source code is used on the PC side. I'd like to even think the code is isolated between all platforms but that would probably be impractical.

But we're getting slightly sidetracked here. My original question was, how do game-breaking bugs pass the testing cycles leading up to release date only to show up at the last minute?

Because its about money, most big game companies policy is get the money first then we might worry about fixing the game.

I doubt many companies would intentionally release something that has severe defects.  Whatever short-term financial gains you may make for meeting the hype, it's always less than the cost of spinning the ensuing PR backlash.

Modifié par ZeroR3D, 14 janvier 2010 - 06:58 .

[Titius.Vibius]

Zero can you say something about this screenshot of a manual download of RTO for PC that came from the ea.com website. The date of the file is January 5, 2010.

[Ginasue]

You also must remember that Microsoft jumped the gun, and released it before they should have. They wheren't done with it,

[Fexelea]

As odd as this will sound, 2 years is not enough time to merge a developer, so the "recent" changes is not related to a specific time period but rather what was done and what new problems arise when any company is bought. M&A people have a lot of work to identify proper synergies and such, but the biggest challenge is always getting the teams to work and communicate and adapt to the new strategy. I think the simultaneous ME2 & DAO right on the back of an acquisition is probably a little too ambitious.

[ZeroR3D]

Titius.Vibius wrote...

Zero can you say something about this screenshot of a manual download of RTO for PC that came from the ea.com website. The date of the file is January 5, 2010.

That it lends credibility to the idea that Bioware is BS'ing their fans and consumers?

Modifié par ZeroR3D, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:07 .

[aphelion002]

That screenshot doesn't really tell you anything except that EA doesn't have the most current version.

[ZeroR3D]

Fexelea wrote...

As odd as this will sound, 2 years is not enough time to merge a developer, so the "recent" changes is not related to a specific time period but rather what was done and what new problems arise when any company is bought. M&A people have a lot of work to identify proper synergies and such, but the biggest challenge is always getting the teams to work and communicate and adapt to the new strategy. I think the simultaneous ME2 & DAO right on the back of an acquisition is probably a little too ambitious.

Given how every little original IP comes from EA (they just re-release the same boring sports games every year or "acquire" new IPs), I wouldn't think they wouldn't go yanking and planting Bioware employees.  This, of course, is pure speculation and/or wishful thinking.

As for 2 years not being enough time for merging companies to adapt, I disagree.  We're talking about the gaming industry here, deadlines and expectations are necessarily aggressive.  If your target is getting two huge enterprises like DAO and ME2 released relatively close to each other and within the same timeframe, any producer/PM would have their resources accounted for before the merger was even signed.  It would boggle my mind if the absorption of Bioware into EA caused cuts to the testing team or even using the same teams to simultaneously develop DAO and ME2.  That's a recipe for disaster and even amateur PMs like me know not to risk it.

But who knows, we'll see well enough if ME2 is delayed

Modifié par ZeroR3D, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:22 .

[Vicious]

Interestingly, I've heard many reports that the version that was available on the fifth [and is now apparently pirate territory] had no bugs that related to specializations. Apparently those came later.



If true, very very strange.

[Mrcoffee55]

ZeroR3D wrote...

Titius.Vibius wrote...

Zero can you say something about this screenshot of a manual download of RTO for PC that came from the ea.com website. The date of the file is January 5, 2010.

That it lends credibility to the idea that Bioware is BS'ing their fans and consumers?

I highly doubt that Bioware would delay the game for the hell of it just to ****** off customers. 

Modifié par Mrcoffee55, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:23 .

[fantasypisces]

And I'm gonna laugh when some who has a pirated version comes on and says it is no different than the 'new' DLC RtO that gets released in... oh lets say... two weeks.



I'm just frustrated, ignore me, lol. I've had a playthrough on hold because I want to do this DLC before the landsmeet... well, the playthrough has pretty much been on hold since mid December.

[ZeroR3D]

fantasypisces wrote...

And I'm gonna laugh when some who has a pirated version comes on and says it is no different than the 'new' DLC RtO that gets released in... oh lets say... two weeks.

A reliable source tells me the ARM RtO release and the one sitting on EA's server differ in size by about 5MB.  So, cosmetically they may be the same but who know under the hood.  Then again, EA could have padded their release as some kind of PR spin. /conspiracy nut

Modifié par ZeroR3D, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:24 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

the simple explanation, hmm where to begin, the first "layer" is finished alpha-testing/goes to beta(or open beta), out there, there is more different configurations of hardware, thusly you can uncover a few more anomolies, after yout "team" has successfully ironed out that phase, you send it out as a "playable" config(assuming it's a game), this software gets out into the wild(us plain folk), and suddenly there's a flurry of biblical proportions(regarding minor issues,but blown out of proportion), said issues are correced(mostly), as you can't please them all(sadly),

Second phase, DLC or an add-on has to be scrutinized even more vigorously, as it often "frags" the original portion of the software(not always but most of the time)

this is where us plain folk lose our tempers on the writers/publishers, because y'all haven't CLUE 1 about how everything added on,can inevitably frag the whole thing!!!

[Fexelea]

All I am saying is that these have been contributing factors to creating miscommunication, which is the root of the problems we are having.
Games companies in particular are difficult to handle. As anyone working for one will tell you, it is incredibly easy to break the balance of a team and ruin a game, and without efficient communication it all goes downhill fast.
When you look at the current undertaking, Bioware went through an acquisition whilst developing the strategic planning for these products. On top of that, they are taking on 2 massive projects with the intention of extending product lifespan and capitalizing on the IP for as long as possible, this adds another layer of planning x2. Generate multiple languages add as well. Then you sprinkle new platforms to develop and test for, but your development team is not experienced in the backstage of the process simultaneously.
All of these combined do one thing: break communication. So deadlines become tight deadlines and then impossible deadlines. All-nighters become all-monthly and eventually something falls through the cracks.
For Bioware and EA, this is their first big thing, so they are learning to dance with each other now, and not during the 2 year tennure. Now is when the technical and the strategic must meet, and we are seeing a very obvious breakdown.
Of course I am adding my fair share of assumptions, but in my experience problems like these arise from poor planing or implementation, which invariably points towards bad communication

Modifié par Fexelea, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:28 .

[fantasypisces]

Yeah, I don't really might know what could be different though in 30 minutes of gameplay (so everyone is saying). It sounds like it's pretty much show up, hear a bit of dialogue, kill a few things down a predefined path, hear some more dialogue.



Maybe they added a cutscene or something.

[PapaPataters]

Bugs in RtO are probably all quest related. Like maybe an NPC isn't where they should be, or a party member may not speak during a dialogue when they're supposed to.



There are also some new items that they may have made new models and textures for. And they probably spent a little time modifying the stats for those items. And they might have to make changes to the quest's story. Change the numbers of enemies in each encounter, balance drops, or move props around.



There might even be a few bugs in the DLC delivery system.



I'm assuming that none of the bugs are really related to the core game engine.

[Taiko Roshi]

In short, stoned monkeys high on PCP are in charge of programming and Q&A at EA/BW. I can not wait for ME2 and SW:TOR to see what the stoned monkeys high on PCP come up with next

Modifié par Taiko Roshi, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:27 .