112 réponses à ce sujet

[CrutchCricket]

Eterna5 wrote...

It is a completely different entity than Shepard, it just holds all of Shepards beliefs and memories. Shepard is gone. 

It is a different entity but there is no less continuity between it and human Shepard than there is between any of us and our past selves.

The key is in what's been added, not what's been lost.

As for the OP, of course coming back in a new body is possible. The motivation for it is less certain.

[cerberus1701]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

It is a completely different entity than Shepard, it just holds all of Shepards beliefs and memories. Shepard is gone. 

What distinguishes Shepard from all of Shepard's beliefs and memories?

Headcanon that's necessary to accept Control without the inevitable end of Shepard becoming the next Catalyst and starting the happy little purges again.

Now they need to usurp the Destroy ending because they need Shepard to be able to be with their LI again.

[CrutchCricket]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Headcanon that's necessary to accept Control without the inevitable end of Shepard becoming the next Catalyst and starting the happy little purges again.

Hardly inevitable, given I can choose control without ever buying into the holokid's bull****.

[Adoramei]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

It is a completely different entity than Shepard, it just holds all of Shepards beliefs and memories. Shepard is gone. 

What distinguishes Shepard from all of Shepard's beliefs and memories?

My thoughts exactly.

[Eterna]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

It is a completely different entity than Shepard, it just holds all of Shepards beliefs and memories. Shepard is gone. 

What distinguishes Shepard from all of Shepard's beliefs and memories?

If we removed your memories and beliefs from your body, killed you, and then implanted the memories and beliefs in another person would it still be you? 

[CrutchCricket]

Eterna5 wrote...
If we removed your memories and beliefs from your body, killed you, and then implanted the memories and beliefs in another person would it still be you? 

Depends on how good your implant proceedure is. The best you'll ever be able to do with identity is "functionally indestiguishable".

[CronoDragoon]

Megaton_Hope wrote...
]What distinguishes Shepard from all of Shepard's beliefs and memories?

Organic brains don't really work like computers. That's the popular analogy these days because every single generation compares the brain to the most current technology available. People used to compare brains to steam engines.

So no, it's not Shepard.

A different question is whether or not an AI with Shepard's memories and values would be better/worse at ruling the galaxy than an organic Shepard, considering that some of the organic/synthetic differences like random neuron firing and emotional chemical surges might make a ruler worse, or at the very least inconsistent.

[cerberus1701]

CrutchCricket wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Headcanon that's necessary to accept Control without the inevitable end of Shepard becoming the next Catalyst and starting the happy little purges again.

Hardly inevitable, given I can choose control without ever buying into the holokid's bull****.

And, also apparently with no thought whatsoever to the things that make humans human..

[Icophesis]

Eterna5 wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

It is a completely different entity than Shepard, it just holds all of Shepards beliefs and memories. Shepard is gone. 

What distinguishes Shepard from all of Shepard's beliefs and memories?

If we removed your memories and beliefs from your body, killed you, and then implanted the memories and beliefs in another person would it still be you? 

This is what I meant when I said "depending on your interpretation of Cerberus bringing Shepard back to life"

ME3 bends the canon a bit by saying that Shep was brain-dead and brought back from the brink of death, while ME2 was pretty adamant that Shepard was thoroughly killed, or as Jacob put it "Dead as dead can be when we found you"

Here is a deleted scene between Ashley and Shepard about it

[CrutchCricket]

cerberus1701 wrote...
And, also apparently with no thought whatsoever to the things that make humans human..

If you think humanity's a prize...


Personally I find the nigh-cosmic levels of knowledge and power, and the ability to explore the cosmos more appealing.


To each their own.

[cerberus1701]

CrutchCricket wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...
And, also apparently with no thought whatsoever to the things that make humans human..

If you think humanity's a prize...


Personally I find the nigh-cosmic levels of knowledge and power, and the ability to explore the cosmos more appealing.


To each their own.

Except that, if Shepard is still anything close to human In there, that happy-joy ending won't last.

And if it's not? Even less reason to trust it.

[Dr. Doctor]

Considering that the Reaper AI's modus operandi is to keep a low profile having Shepard suddenly disappearing shortly after the Crucible went off might lead to some questions better left unasked.

[Megaton_Hope]

CronoDragoon wrote...
Organic brains don't really work like computers. That's the popular analogy these days because every single generation compares the brain to the most current technology available. People used to compare brains to steam engines.

So no, it's not Shepard.

The mechanism is different, but the principle isn't so much. The basic material of consciousness is an electrical signal passing from one circuit to another. The body has its own forms of short term and long-term storage for information, and hardware specialized to process sensation, movement, memory and language, but a society as advanced as the one in Mass Effect could design analogues to the organic originals. You'd just have to achieve the right speed - the corpus callosum, for example, signals at several gigahertz, much faster than the frontside bus on most motherboards.

The trick of reading out the contents of a person's mind, storing it in a meaningful way, and interpreting what's been stored would be the real difficulty. There are reasons to believe it might be impossible, in fact; although there are marked similarities in the way people perceive and store information in general, in practice, there are differences that would be hard to ignore in trying to generalize. Synesthetics don't collect sense information the right way, for example. Schizophrenics process language differently, and are prone to hallucination. Probably there'd be no "standard" way to store a person's brain, since the way it encodes and retrieves information is developed on the fly as a person grows. Wouldn't want to look for childhood memories and find extra ways to solve quadratic equations.

Eterna5 wrote...
If we removed your memories and beliefs from your body, killed you, and
then implanted the memories and beliefs in another person would it still
be you?

Are you saying that it wouldn't believe it was? It would know everything I do, believe everything I do, and probably think and feel in roughly the way I do, minus the purely biological matters like hormones and neurotransmitters. If you erased everything I know and believe I would be dead, whether my heart was still beating or not. If you duplicated everything I know and believe there would be two of me, for all intents and purposes. Not identical, since there is nothing to link the two from the point of duplication, but close enough that the distinction may not really be important.

[Adoramei]

If I still had my own memories, beliefs, and thoughts put into an empty shell, I'd still be me. Just as much as a transplant patient is still the same individual, just with new parts. I'd be a wreck, of course. I happen to like my body. Kind of.. attached to it. It's grown on me. Haha. (Okay, I'm done with the terribad puns, I swear.) But aside from a sensory deficit, which only leads to a change in stimuli perception, I would still cognitively respond to the stimuli in the same way. I would still have the same thought processes.

The rest is a matter of whether my memories and thoughts are actually intact. (If altered, that might change things, but that's neither here nor there.) I might be a different version of myself, a changed self but still me.

[Dendio1]

I'm pretty sure we all agree that even if clone shep came packaged with shepard's memories he still wouldn't be the real shepard.

Modifié par Dendio1, 19 mars 2013 - 06:40 .

[Dendio1]

Adoramei wrote...

If I still had my own memories, beliefs, and thoughts put into an empty shell, I'd still be me. Just as much as a transplant patient is still the same individual, just with new parts. I'd be a wreck, of course. I happen to like my body. Kind of.. attached to it. It's grown on me. Haha. (Okay, I'm done with the terribad puns, I swear.) But aside from a sensory deficit, which only leads to a change in stimuli perception, I would still cognitively respond to the stimuli in the same way. I would still have the same thought processes.

The rest is a matter of whether my memories and thoughts are actually intact. (If altered, that might change things, but that's neither here nor there.) I might be a different version of myself, a changed self but still me.

If you moved your memories to an empty shell, then we would have you and an empty shell containing your memories. If you died, we'd have dead you + an empty shell containing your memories.

[Adoramei]

So the more of their original bodies they lose, the more of their identity is lost?

I think the difference here is perception. Between "you" being originality and unique personal identity in a cognitive sense and then "you" being physically linked.

I would less likely consider someone in a vegetative state to be themselves than to consider if.. say.. my fiance's body died but his memories and cognitive function were reignited into a metal shell. Any hope for progeny may be lost, but so long as we are able to converse as before, he would still be him. Whereas if I were in a vegetative state with no brain activity, I would no longer be me. What made me me is not there. I've told him that if I were ever in that situation to just pull the plug and move on.

So, what, exactly are your criteria for being you? What makes you you? I'm just curious because I identify on a cognitive level rather than incorporating much thought into physicality. But that's what makes me me.

The difference, by the way, between the clone and Shepard is that the original Shepard existed first and still continues to exist. If that were not the case and the clone Shepard has any experiences outside of Shepard's final experiences, then they are not Shepard. They may identify as Shepard, and they do exist as another version of Shepard. But if the original is gone and from that instant on, that consciousness is transferred immediately into the clone, who wakes up after the original is gone, then who's to say that that's not Shepard?

[Nykara]

For those supporting that Shep could come back in some form or another try this one: http://shannon.users...et/masseffect/ Your LI is essentially working on something called Shepard, Commander Platform. I think it could happen too, in fact I might keep that as my head cannon

Modifié par Nykara, 19 mars 2013 - 07:21 .

[Nykara]

I just had a thought but after time memories fade to an extent, or the feelings behind those memories do. If you loose a friend it hurts like hell to begin with but over time it fades in to the background till it no longer dominates your thoughts. What if something like that happened with Reaper Shep and communing with the organics was in fact necessary to maintain a level of connection to them so that the cycle did NOT repeat itself? What if Sheps humanity was required to do just that? Otherwise if Shepard was in fact an it and not an individual of sorts it might get lost in translation and the cycle may well end up returning in time.

[Patchwork]

The Shepalyst might create an android platform to use when circumstances demand interaction with organics but there's no reason to think it would look like Shepard.

In fact looking like a dead war hero would not work in her favour.

[Nykara]

Ser Bard wrote...

The Shepalyst might create an android platform to use when circumstances demand interaction with organics but there's no reason to think it would look like Shepard.

In fact looking like a dead war hero would not work in her favour.

Unless its done intentionally without the platform knowing about it. A platform created to look, think and act human and behave exactly like commander Shep only with a small level of connection to the Reapers without knowing it has that connection. Then they follow the feelings and emotions that platform has towards the organics it interacts with. Its hard to explain but I know what I mean some way of them always knowing exactly what its like to be an organic all the time.

[shodiswe]

Eterna5 wrote...

Well it could be possible I doubt the Shepalyst would have any reason to. It has its mandate, recreating Shepard serves no real purpose. 

What would Shepard's LI say to that...

Just more of Shepard to love obviously. 

Recreating a Shepard Avatar would provide an additional way to interacting with the people of the galaxy. It could work like the Avatar in the movie Avatar.
Assuming direct control   A fairly brainless clone made available for direct interaction. It could also be useful for personaly investigating events on the citadel or rallying people for whatever ideas you got, or for negotiations or over eeing negotiations between different species.
I can immagine that it woudl be a lto better to have an avatar body when communicatign with the galaxy rather than havign a dissembodied voice, even if it commes with a hologram.

So, yes, a body would be very useful for any kind of guardian wanting to aid the galaxy and help maintain peace.

[shodiswe]

Ser Bard wrote...

The Shepalyst might create an android platform to use when circumstances demand interaction with organics but there's no reason to think it would look like Shepard.

In fact looking like a dead war hero would not work in her favour.

I can't see why it would have to be robotic made of exclusively synthetic materials, the clone was grown in a tank like Grunt. Why not create an Avatar in a similar way and have it work liek EDI's body, some of Shepard would always be in the citadel and some of it in the Avatar body and they would hav a bond. Just like EDI but it would be Shepard 2.0, same ideal, same emotions same memories same everything, just a lot more to it, the collected knowledge of the reapers available on request.

But even so I hope we get to play a new character and if Shepard is around we don't get to have any or at most minimal interaction, or interaction by proxy.

[Dr_Extrem]

Adoramei wrote...

If I still had my own memories, beliefs, and thoughts put into an empty shell, I'd still be me. Just as much as a transplant patient is still the same individual, just with new parts. I'd be a wreck, of course. I happen to like my body. Kind of.. attached to it. It's grown on me. Haha. (Okay, I'm done with the terribad puns, I swear.) But aside from a sensory deficit, which only leads to a change in stimuli perception, I would still cognitively respond to the stimuli in the same way. I would still have the same thought processes.

The rest is a matter of whether my memories and thoughts are actually intact. (If altered, that might change things, but that's neither here nor there.) I might be a different version of myself, a changed self but still me.

its a little bit more complicated.

beliefs, memories and thought patterns/processes are only one part of what makes you, "you".

your "body" has a memory of its own. whenever you jump on your bike, you do not act by active memory or thoughs - you just ride your bike. its happens naturally.

call it the "unconscious memory" or "memory of your flesh". neurologists and psychiatrists believe, that those onformations are "stored" within the whole nervous system, and not only your brain.

your thought processes are guided by hormones and neuroreceptors. bthey work hand in hand. you have sensory input and you have a memory and an emotional response. you feel an emotion and a memory pops up. you remember something and feel the according emotion.

the shepai no longer has those emotions caused by oxytocin, endorphin and all the other neurotransmitters. the shepai might emulate "known" emotions - but fresh emotions are most likely not possible. the ai is most likely in "emotional sagnation". it does not need emotions to fulfill its purpose. in addition.
 
the shepai has entered a different plane of existance. it thinks differently - terms like eternity and immortality are not restrictions anymore - they are the future. the scope has changed completely, because the ai is now responsible for the entire galaxy.


shepai has thousands of bodies - from husk to reaper - shepard has control over them all.