112 réponses à ce sujet

[Nykara]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Adoramei wrote...

If I still had my own memories, beliefs, and thoughts put into an empty shell, I'd still be me. Just as much as a transplant patient is still the same individual, just with new parts. I'd be a wreck, of course. I happen to like my body. Kind of.. attached to it. It's grown on me. Haha. (Okay, I'm done with the terribad puns, I swear.) But aside from a sensory deficit, which only leads to a change in stimuli perception, I would still cognitively respond to the stimuli in the same way. I would still have the same thought processes.

The rest is a matter of whether my memories and thoughts are actually intact. (If altered, that might change things, but that's neither here nor there.) I might be a different version of myself, a changed self but still me.

its a little bit more complicated.

beliefs, memories and thought patterns/processes are only one part of what makes you, "you".

your "body" has a memory of its own. whenever you jump on your bike, you do not act by active memory or thoughs - you just ride your bike. its happens naturally.

call it the "unconscious memory" or "memory of your flesh". neurologists and psychiatrists believe, that those onformations are "stored" within the whole nervous system, and not only your brain.

your thought processes are guided by hormones and neuroreceptors. bthey work hand in hand. you have sensory input and you have a memory and an emotional response. you feel an emotion and a memory pops up. you remember something and feel the according emotion.

the shepai no longer has those emotions caused by oxytocin, endorphin and all the other neurotransmitters. the shepai might emulate "known" emotions - but fresh emotions are most likely not possible. the ai is most likely in "emotional sagnation". it does not need emotions to fulfill its purpose. in addition.
 
the shepai has entered a different plane of existance. it thinks differently - terms like eternity and immortality are not restrictions anymore - they are the future. the scope has changed completely, because the ai is now responsible for the entire galaxy.


shepai has thousands of bodies - from husk to reaper - shepard has control over them all.

All of what you are talking about is actually controlled by the brain. it is not actually ones body that has those memories its ones brain that does. I don't even know if todays scientists know exactly how ones brain works but electrical impulses has a lot to do with it. I don't think that memories are even stored in the tissue of the brain so much as the electrical impluses in the brain and if that is the case, in theory those impluses could be transfered to another platform capable of handling them. That being said a perfect clone of Shep, with Sheps memories transfered would be close enough!

[Patchwork]

shodiswe wrote...

Ser Bard wrote...

The Shepalyst might create an android platform to use when circumstances demand interaction with organics but there's no reason to think it would look like Shepard.

In fact looking like a dead war hero would not work in her favour.

I can't see why it would have to be robotic made of exclusively synthetic materials, the clone was grown in a tank like Grunt. Why not create an Avatar in a similar way and have it work liek EDI's body, some of Shepard would always be in the citadel and some of it in the Avatar body and they would hav a bond. Just like EDI but it would be Shepard 2.0, same ideal, same emotions same memories same everything, just a lot more to it, the collected knowledge of the reapers available on request.

But even so I hope we get to play a new character and if Shepard is around we don't get to have any or at most minimal interaction, or interaction by proxy.

Human bodies have to be maintained and at best Shepalyst could only use it for a hundred years. An android/Eva body can be stored and used as needed forever.

Alterantively many bots could be made of different species, ages and sex. The goal is to control the galaxy and what better way to do it than to have a hanful of avatars in key positions throughout space?

IMO there are pros and cons of each ending but Control does come at the cost of Shepard's life. The Shepalyst is guided by human Shepard's memories and personality but its very purpose makes it not Shepard.

[Dr_Extrem]

Nykara wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Adoramei wrote...

If I still had my own memories, beliefs, and thoughts put into an empty shell, I'd still be me. Just as much as a transplant patient is still the same individual, just with new parts. I'd be a wreck, of course. I happen to like my body. Kind of.. attached to it. It's grown on me. Haha. (Okay, I'm done with the terribad puns, I swear.) But aside from a sensory deficit, which only leads to a change in stimuli perception, I would still cognitively respond to the stimuli in the same way. I would still have the same thought processes.

The rest is a matter of whether my memories and thoughts are actually intact. (If altered, that might change things, but that's neither here nor there.) I might be a different version of myself, a changed self but still me.

its a little bit more complicated.

beliefs, memories and thought patterns/processes are only one part of what makes you, "you".

your "body" has a memory of its own. whenever you jump on your bike, you do not act by active memory or thoughs - you just ride your bike. its happens naturally.

call it the "unconscious memory" or "memory of your flesh". neurologists and psychiatrists believe, that those onformations are "stored" within the whole nervous system, and not only your brain.

your thought processes are guided by hormones and neuroreceptors. bthey work hand in hand. you have sensory input and you have a memory and an emotional response. you feel an emotion and a memory pops up. you remember something and feel the according emotion.

the shepai no longer has those emotions caused by oxytocin, endorphin and all the other neurotransmitters. the shepai might emulate "known" emotions - but fresh emotions are most likely not possible. the ai is most likely in "emotional sagnation". it does not need emotions to fulfill its purpose. in addition.
 
the shepai has entered a different plane of existance. it thinks differently - terms like eternity and immortality are not restrictions anymore - they are the future. the scope has changed completely, because the ai is now responsible for the entire galaxy.


shepai has thousands of bodies - from husk to reaper - shepard has control over them all.

All of what you are talking about is actually controlled by the brain. it is not actually ones body that has those memories its ones brain that does. I don't even know if todays scientists know exactly how ones brain works but electrical impulses has a lot to do with it. I don't think that memories are even stored in the tissue of the brain so much as the electrical impluses in the brain and if that is the case, in theory those impluses could be transfered to another platform capable of handling them. That being said a perfect clone of Shep, with Sheps memories transfered would be close enough!

i read an article about this stuff 2 weeks ago.

even if all of your functions are housed within the brain, emotional responses are caused by sensory input - without input, there is stagnation. without glands, there iare no new emotional connections to new thoughts and memories.

shepai uses what is left of shepard, as a basement for its future decisions. shep becomes catalyst 2.0 with altered operational parameters.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

It is a completely different entity than Shepard, it just holds all of Shepards beliefs and memories. Shepard is gone. 

What distinguishes Shepard from all of Shepard's beliefs and memories?

Shepard is an organic. Shepard learned his/her lessons over years of experience. Shepard had emotions. Shepard knew how to love. Shepard remembered. Shepard had hope. These are some of the things Shepard loses.

Shepard's beliefs and memories? Now they are simply software loaded into a computer. If the platform were to malfunction, the software could be loaded into another platform. No soul, replaced by tech. That is the difference between synthetics and organics. Synthetics platforms do not need time to learn. Their software is uploaded. Organics take time and our time is limited.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 19 mars 2013 - 10:47 .

[Wulfram]

I think it's pretty clearly intended that there be no way back to a "mortal" life for the ShepAI, whether you see this AI as a continuation of Shepard's or a new thing created from Shepard.

[shodiswe]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Nykara wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Adoramei wrote...

If I still had my own memories, beliefs, and thoughts put into an empty shell, I'd still be me. Just as much as a transplant patient is still the same individual, just with new parts. I'd be a wreck, of course. I happen to like my body. Kind of.. attached to it. It's grown on me. Haha. (Okay, I'm done with the terribad puns, I swear.) But aside from a sensory deficit, which only leads to a change in stimuli perception, I would still cognitively respond to the stimuli in the same way. I would still have the same thought processes.

The rest is a matter of whether my memories and thoughts are actually intact. (If altered, that might change things, but that's neither here nor there.) I might be a different version of myself, a changed self but still me.

its a little bit more complicated.

beliefs, memories and thought patterns/processes are only one part of what makes you, "you".

your "body" has a memory of its own. whenever you jump on your bike, you do not act by active memory or thoughs - you just ride your bike. its happens naturally.

call it the "unconscious memory" or "memory of your flesh". neurologists and psychiatrists believe, that those onformations are "stored" within the whole nervous system, and not only your brain.

your thought processes are guided by hormones and neuroreceptors. bthey work hand in hand. you have sensory input and you have a memory and an emotional response. you feel an emotion and a memory pops up. you remember something and feel the according emotion.

the shepai no longer has those emotions caused by oxytocin, endorphin and all the other neurotransmitters. the shepai might emulate "known" emotions - but fresh emotions are most likely not possible. the ai is most likely in "emotional sagnation". it does not need emotions to fulfill its purpose. in addition.
 
the shepai has entered a different plane of existance. it thinks differently - terms like eternity and immortality are not restrictions anymore - they are the future. the scope has changed completely, because the ai is now responsible for the entire galaxy.


shepai has thousands of bodies - from husk to reaper - shepard has control over them all.

All of what you are talking about is actually controlled by the brain. it is not actually ones body that has those memories its ones brain that does. I don't even know if todays scientists know exactly how ones brain works but electrical impulses has a lot to do with it. I don't think that memories are even stored in the tissue of the brain so much as the electrical impluses in the brain and if that is the case, in theory those impluses could be transfered to another platform capable of handling them. That being said a perfect clone of Shep, with Sheps memories transfered would be close enough!

i read an article about this stuff 2 weeks ago.

even if all of your functions are housed within the brain, emotional responses are caused by sensory input - without input, there is stagnation. without glands, there iare no new emotional connections to new thoughts and memories.

shepai uses what is left of shepard, as a basement for its future decisions. shep becomes catalyst 2.0 with altered operational parameters.

Those glands are nothing but neural functions bart of the organic computing network, they can be replaced/simulated. You could even simulate intoxication if you wish even if I fail to see the point of that. I'm not a big drinker.

[shodiswe]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

It is a completely different entity than Shepard, it just holds all of Shepards beliefs and memories. Shepard is gone. 

What distinguishes Shepard from all of Shepard's beliefs and memories?

Shepard is an organic. Shepard learned his/her lessons over years of experience. Shepard had emotions. Shepard knew how to love. Shepard remembered. Shepard had hope. These are some of the things Shepard loses.

Shepard's beliefs and memories? Now they are simply software loaded into a computer. If the platform were to malfunction, the software could be loaded into another platform. No soul, replaced by tech. That is the difference between synthetics and organics. Synthetics platforms do not need time to learn. Their software is uploaded. Organics take time and our time is limited.

Some things they have to learn the slow way. Things that don't exist or havn't happend yet can't be uploaded. There is no magical know all be all for synthetics.

And, what's truly an emotion?

Modifié par shodiswe, 19 mars 2013 - 11:43 .

[AlexMBrennan]

I suppose you could argue that this is no longer the Shepard we once knew, since he merged with the catalyst, but the ending dialogue in the Extended Cut suggests that he still remembers who he onces was

No. The epilogue explicitly states that the AI entity is not Shepard. And I sure hope you made a backup of Shep's brain before becoming the AI entity because we've seen how well things work without one.

[Ieldra]

@OP:
Yes, this is a rather obvious possibility. As for the question of identity: identity is memory. Would a cloned Shepard body with all of Shepard's thoughts and memories actually be Shepard? The story does not give an answer. It's up to you to take a stance on this philosophical issue.

However, whatever new body Control!Shep could build, it could only hold a part of what Control!Shep is now, and it would always be an avatar of the greater entity, not a regular human. Unless you cut Shepard-the-human totally off from the greater entity - and would that be desirable?

@all:
As for the "tech without soul" argument, that's an arbitrary distinction. What is a "soul" actually, if not the whole of our thoughts and memories? Apart from that, there is no reason why a human shouldn't be able to do everything synthetics can do and vice versa, with appropriate technology.

Edit:
The Control entity says "The man/woman I once was". There definitely is continuity of identity.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 mars 2013 - 11:54 .

[Enhanced]

Shepard could do it. We know that organic consciousness can be tranfered into computers and then into new bodies. The virtual aliens were able to accomplish both (http://masseffect.wi...i/Virtual_Alien).

Modifié par Enhanced, 19 mars 2013 - 02:19 .

[CrutchCricket]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Except that, if Shepard is still anything close to human In there, that happy-joy ending won't last.

And if it's not? Even less reason to trust it.

There is no happy-joy ending. There is only a return to the status quo... followed by strife unrelated to the atrocities of ME3.

Check the sig for why Control Shepard (or Commander as I like to call it) won't even be around for much longer.

[o Ventus]

That would mind of defeat the purpose of Control requiring Shepard's death, as well as absolutely deflate any sense of poignancy associated with Shepard's death.

No.

[o Ventus]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

It is a completely different entity than Shepard, it just holds all of Shepards beliefs and memories. Shepard is gone. 

What distinguishes Shepard from all of Shepard's beliefs and memories?

What about his or her body, friends, and loved ones?

Memories are the product of somebody experiencing an event, they don't make a person.

Modifié par o Ventus, 19 mars 2013 - 04:17 .

[ruggly]

Technically yes, but the catalyst specifically says that Shepard will lose all connection (s)he ever had to organics. It would be nothing but a shell with memories.

[Nykara]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Nykara wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Adoramei wrote...

If I still had my own memories, beliefs, and thoughts put into an empty shell, I'd still be me. Just as much as a transplant patient is still the same individual, just with new parts. I'd be a wreck, of course. I happen to like my body. Kind of.. attached to it. It's grown on me. Haha. (Okay, I'm done with the terribad puns, I swear.) But aside from a sensory deficit, which only leads to a change in stimuli perception, I would still cognitively respond to the stimuli in the same way. I would still have the same thought processes.

The rest is a matter of whether my memories and thoughts are actually intact. (If altered, that might change things, but that's neither here nor there.) I might be a different version of myself, a changed self but still me.

its a little bit more complicated.

beliefs, memories and thought patterns/processes are only one part of what makes you, "you".

your "body" has a memory of its own. whenever you jump on your bike, you do not act by active memory or thoughs - you just ride your bike. its happens naturally.

call it the "unconscious memory" or "memory of your flesh". neurologists and psychiatrists believe, that those onformations are "stored" within the whole nervous system, and not only your brain.

your thought processes are guided by hormones and neuroreceptors. bthey work hand in hand. you have sensory input and you have a memory and an emotional response. you feel an emotion and a memory pops up. you remember something and feel the according emotion.

the shepai no longer has those emotions caused by oxytocin, endorphin and all the other neurotransmitters. the shepai might emulate "known" emotions - but fresh emotions are most likely not possible. the ai is most likely in "emotional sagnation". it does not need emotions to fulfill its purpose. in addition.
 
the shepai has entered a different plane of existance. it thinks differently - terms like eternity and immortality are not restrictions anymore - they are the future. the scope has changed completely, because the ai is now responsible for the entire galaxy.


shepai has thousands of bodies - from husk to reaper - shepard has control over them all.

All of what you are talking about is actually controlled by the brain. it is not actually ones body that has those memories its ones brain that does. I don't even know if todays scientists know exactly how ones brain works but electrical impulses has a lot to do with it. I don't think that memories are even stored in the tissue of the brain so much as the electrical impluses in the brain and if that is the case, in theory those impluses could be transfered to another platform capable of handling them. That being said a perfect clone of Shep, with Sheps memories transfered would be close enough!

i read an article about this stuff 2 weeks ago.

even if all of your functions are housed within the brain, emotional responses are caused by sensory input - without input, there is stagnation. without glands, there iare no new emotional connections to new thoughts and memories.

shepai uses what is left of shepard, as a basement for its future decisions. shep becomes catalyst 2.0 with altered operational parameters.

what would happen then if they somehow put Catalyst 2.0 or Shepard in to a human ( clones body ) with sheps memories? All that sensory input would come back?

[Adoramei]

Sensory input is one thing. Stimuli DOES elicit emotional responses, but they do not necessarily control your emotions. It is true that without a nervous/endocrine system that you would no longer have the full range, but we are talking about the far future here. (Not to mention a video game, where they have this technology- proven by Shepard, who was by all intents and purposes: dead. Without oxygen for that long, there is no way to preserve the brain/body as it was. That body was rebuilt. It could be argued that the shell is no longer the same. But is Shepard still Shepard? We seem to accept it.)

And the topic I initially commented on was based around your identity and what makes you you.

This turned into a lot more than the argument of a physical body vs. cognitive function making a person. Haha. Within this fictional realm, the idea of an AI is accepted as life. Not to mention the implications of cognitive processes existing without a body. It is science fiction, after all. But I still stand by what I've been saying. Your thoughts make you you.

If I was taking care of a patient with a malfunctioning endocrine system or with a loss in perception, I would not suggest that they are a different individual. During my psych rotation, all of my patients had neurotransmitter imbalances. It changed their mood but not their being. Once they adhered to their prescribed therapy, they were less imbalanced, but they never lost their identity at any point.

Now, in the world of Mass Effect, there are synthetics with true intelligence. While Shepard began as an organic, after some adjustment, wouldn't they just still be that same type of code? EDI had emotions, even without neurotransmitters or stimuli as we know it.

If we want to really get technical with the physiological processes involved in regulating emotions in real life, the whole scenario with Shepard kind of gets wiped out. The technical, medical sci-fi of the game is one of the only things that I have trouble with when it comes to immersion because I know better. In fact, my fiance had to stop me from giving him an analysis of the vital signs in the beginning of ME2. But we are talking about a game. A fictional universe where a consciousness CAN be transferred into a non-corporeal form.

It's just non-canon speculation about whether or not the consciousness could be transferred into a platform, clone.. whatever. I still believe that this would still be Shepard. An identity at its core in my mind lies in the cognitive functioning and processing. The intellect. The game universe seems to follow the same mold save for the endings, which honestly boils down to a disappointingly arbitrary thought process that reeks of, "We totally ran out of time. I hope they don't notice."

[Jukaga]

Icophesis wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

It is a completely different entity than Shepard, it just holds all of Shepards beliefs and memories. Shepard is gone. 

What distinguishes Shepard from all of Shepard's beliefs and memories?

If we removed your memories and beliefs from your body, killed you, and then implanted the memories and beliefs in another person would it still be you? 

This is what I meant when I said "depending on your interpretation of Cerberus bringing Shepard back to life"

ME3 bends the canon a bit by saying that Shep was brain-dead and brought back from the brink of death, while ME2 was pretty adamant that Shepard was thoroughly killed, or as Jacob put it "Dead as dead can be when we found you"

Here is a deleted scene between Ashley and Shepard about it

I had chills down my spine reading that, why would they cut such a great scene?

[Jukaga]

Nykara wrote...

For those supporting that Shep could come back in some form or another try this one: http://shannon.users...et/masseffect/ Your LI is essentially working on something called Shepard, Commander Platform. I think it could happen too, in fact I might keep that as my head cannon

Hey that was really cool, thanks for sharing.

[Icophesis]

Jukaga wrote...

Icophesis wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

It is a completely different entity than Shepard, it just holds all of Shepards beliefs and memories. Shepard is gone. 

What distinguishes Shepard from all of Shepard's beliefs and memories?

If we removed your memories and beliefs from your body, killed you, and then implanted the memories and beliefs in another person would it still be you? 

This is what I meant when I said "depending on your interpretation of Cerberus bringing Shepard back to life"

ME3 bends the canon a bit by saying that Shep was brain-dead and brought back from the brink of death, while ME2 was pretty adamant that Shepard was thoroughly killed, or as Jacob put it "Dead as dead can be when we found you"

Here is a deleted scene between Ashley and Shepard about it

I had chills down my spine reading that, why would they cut such a great scene?

It is a great scene. Its a bit heavy because of the religious connotations, its likely they were afraid it might upset some players, so they kept it out. *cough* ea wanted to assure they got as many players to get the most money possible by removing anything that might offend a part of the player base *cough*  

[Jukaga]

Icophesis wrote...

Jukaga wrote...

Icophesis wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

It is a completely different entity than Shepard, it just holds all of Shepards beliefs and memories. Shepard is gone. 

What distinguishes Shepard from all of Shepard's beliefs and memories?

If we removed your memories and beliefs from your body, killed you, and then implanted the memories and beliefs in another person would it still be you? 

This is what I meant when I said "depending on your interpretation of Cerberus bringing Shepard back to life"

ME3 bends the canon a bit by saying that Shep was brain-dead and brought back from the brink of death, while ME2 was pretty adamant that Shepard was thoroughly killed, or as Jacob put it "Dead as dead can be when we found you"

Here is a deleted scene between Ashley and Shepard about it

I had chills down my spine reading that, why would they cut such a great scene?

It is a great scene. Its a bit heavy because of the religious connotations, its likely they were afraid it might upset some players, so they kept it out. *cough* ea wanted to assure they got as many players to get the most money possible by removing anything that might offend a part of the player base *cough*  

Gah I hate that PC garbage. Personally I am an atheist but it doesnt bother me that people have faith. To think that some people would be bothered by the faith of a fictional character WHOSE FAITH IS ALREADY ESTABLISHED CANON is just silly. Too bad, it would have been a moving scene.

[Megaton_Hope]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Shepard is an organic. Shepard learned his/her lessons over years of experience. Shepard had emotions. Shepard knew how to love. Shepard remembered. Shepard had hope. These are some of the things Shepard loses.

Shepard's beliefs and memories? Now they are simply software loaded into a computer. If the platform were to malfunction, the software could be loaded into another platform. No soul, replaced by tech. That is the difference between synthetics and organics. Synthetics platforms do not need time to learn. Their software is uploaded. Organics take time and our time is limited.

This Shepard could be made organic again; if the "download" worked, then an "upload" could work just as easily. The argument that the core of Shepard's identity was preserved, on which this ending is premised, and the mechanism that his mind was reduced from its original organic state to information suggests that all the necessary technology is available to achieve the reverse - that is, writing the information to a biological medium. That being the case, would a neo-organic Shepard not be Shepard?

As far as experience, emotion, memory and foresight, all of these should be available to a construct. What the construct lacks is a vehicle for purely biological responses. No fight-or-flight response, no pair bonding, no physical sensation of pleasure. Without those there would be differences, but I don't consider those differences to be sufficient to call the resulting identity a separate one.

The question of Shepard's consciousness expanding to fill a space that processes more information faster than a human brain, and exposed to more powerful but less visceral sensations, that's an issue. The new entity, if the Shepard part is really resident in all of this complexity rather than part of a process used to direct it, would have to "throttle down" substantially to even remotely approach the way a human thinks and responds.

[Fixers0]

Because falling into a planet and being brought back to life wasn't far enough.

[Funkdrspot]

Michotic wrote...

From what the Catalyst said, Shepard is dead. The AI/VI Construct has access to Shepard's memories, but it's not Shepard.

We can see what happens with a Clone Shepard.

wrong. its obvious by there being 2 variations of control that Shepard is uploaded as the new catalyst. its not some 'construct' that has 'access' to sheps memories, its the synthetic manifestation of Shepard. They said Shepard's story is ending....but ShepAlyst's story is just beginning...