112 réponses à ce sujet

[Megaton_Hope]

Fixers0 wrote...

Because falling into a planet and being brought back to life wasn't far enough.

I'm not arguing that Shepard SHOULD be brought back, by either means. Just people seem to be arguing that it's actually not possible to translate Shepard qua Shepard into a mechanical version in the first place, when that's basically what Control is all about.

[Reap_ii]

im sure he could upload part of his program to a mobile platform just like EDI. wouldn't be exactly Shepard, but probably close.

[Massa FX]

tl;dr OP. But based on your topic heading I say "In your dreams"

[SpamBot2000]

No, Shepard died.

[SurfaceBeneath]

God Reaper Shepard could easily create a body to inhabit if it felt like. And I can see it doing this as a way to communicate with organic civilizations since Shepard is practically a messianic figure and those races would be far more willing to listen to Shepard the person than to Shepard the Reaper God.

Another thing I could see God Reaper Shepard doing is every few years creating a Shepard body and living life as a normal organic being so as to reinforce that perspective.

As far as I'm concerned the Control ending puts you in a position to do almost anything. Really your imagination is the limit with that one.

[SpamBot2000]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

As far as I'm concerned the Control ending puts you in a position to do almost anything. Really your imagination is the limit with that one.

Common mistake. In fact, it puts you in the condition of a dead person, while another thing entirely is in a position to do... well, what Reapers do.

[SurfaceBeneath]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Common mistake. In fact, it puts you in the condition of a dead person, while another thing entirely is in a position to do... well, what Reapers do.

The ending explicitely says otherwise. So I guess if we like just ignoring what is stated in the ending then sure!

[SpamBot2000]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Common mistake. In fact, it puts you in the condition of a dead person, while another thing entirely is in a position to do... well, what Reapers do.

The ending explicitely says otherwise. So I guess if we like just ignoring what is stated in the ending then sure!

"Through his death, I was created."

Thing even refers to Shep in the 3rd person.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 19 mars 2013 - 11:40 .

[Phatose]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Common mistake. In fact, it puts you in the condition of a dead person, while another thing entirely is in a position to do... well, what Reapers do.

The ending explicitely says otherwise. So I guess if we like just ignoring what is stated in the ending then sure!

"Through his death, I was created."

Thing even refers to Shep in the 3rd person.

"The man I was knew the he could....."

[o Ventus]

Compromise: ShepardLyst is a little slow and doesn't know what continuity is. Good?

[Phatose]

No compromise necessary. It's quite consistent. The "He" used in that ending is entirely metaphorical.

For example, I might say "The man I was 10 years ago believed. He died with that little girl."

This is not uncommon in literature. The man Shephard was 'died' in that metaphorical sense upon his ascension. They are still the same entity.

[SurfaceBeneath]

SpamBot2000 wrote...
"Through his death, I was created."

Thing even refers to Shep in the 3rd person.

Shepard died in the beginning of the second game too.

She came back. Or at least an identical copy of her with all her memories, experiences, and thoughts came back. It was for all intents and purposes the same Shepard.

The Catalyst says it uploads an exact copy of Shepard. Again all of her memories, experiences, thoughts, everything. Her physical body dies. The Reaper God contains everything that was Shepard.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 19 mars 2013 - 11:55 .

[Megaton_Hope]

The reality is, Shepard does die. Corporeally, there is no more of what used to be Shepard. All the information formerly stored in Shepard is still around.

I just find it difficult wrapping my head around why people think that they're more than that information.

[SpamBot2000]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

The reality is, Shepard does die. Corporeally, there is no more of what used to be Shepard. All the information formerly stored in Shepard is still around.

I just find it difficult wrapping my head around why people think that they're more than that information.

Well... some people entertain the notion that our physical beings are deeply connected to our psyches. That being embodied in this manner has some impact on our perceptions, emotions and ways of thinking. 

[Unschuld]

Even if what was left of Shepard existed as more than a few binary values that color the actions of a networked race of biosynthetic super-squids, why the hell would the immortal god emperor hive-mind care about a few ants enough to give them a personal visit? This thread is wishful thinking at best.

SurfaceBeneath wrote...Shepard died in the beginning of the second game too.

She came back. Or at least an identical copy of her with all her memories, experiences, and thoughts came back. It was for all intents and purposes the same Shepard.

The Catalyst says it uploads an exact copy of Shepard. Again all of her memories, experiences, thoughts, everything. Her physical body dies. The Reaper God contains everything that was Shepard.

That was "dead" in terms of lost consciousness, brought back to life through wacky pseudoscience and bad writing. The physical "meat and tubes" were still there, as well as organs/cells/neurons/chemicals etc. that contained what makes Shepard an individual. Nowhere in the narrative does it say they downloaded a copy of "The Complete Biography of Shepard" into a revived brain (because it was already there, just frozen/in stasis and "dead" for intents and purposes), even if the actual explanation is no less stupid for it.

The narrative HEAVILY implies through the ending, from the Catalyst explanation to  Shepard-lyst's speeches and slides, that the real Shepard is dead and all that remains are binary values that color the catalysts actions to more closely match Shepard's moral compass. All Shepard did when he/she bridged the spark gap was change the Reaper hive-mind perception from 1+1=2 into 1+2=3.

Modifié par Unschuld, 20 mars 2013 - 12:40 .

[Phatose]

No it doesn't.

"You will control us". Not "You'll merge with us". And the extended cut voice-over makes clear that the entity speak self-identifies as Shepard, and is in control of the Reapers.

You're entitled to your headcanon I suppose, but that's not to ignore the actual canon.

[Volc19]

I rather my headcanon that Clone!Shep survives his fall, and will lead the charge should the Shepalyst ever go bonkers.

It would be great for the Clone's character development.

[Megaton_Hope]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Well... some people entertain the notion that our physical beings are deeply connected to our psyches. That being embodied in this manner has some impact on our perceptions, emotions and ways of thinking. 

While they each influence the other in subtle ways, I've never really considered the one and the other to be indissoluble. Like, the identity is basically housed in the brain - the brain receives and interprets input from the rest of the body, including hormones that influence how it responds to stimuli. But if you had a support system keeping the brain (or the head) alive without degrading its supply of glucose or oxygen, then the person whose brain that was would still be alive. They undoubtedly wouldn't be pleased with this arrangement, and their perceptions would be drastically different, but they'd be alive, in the same way they are with that brain in a body.

Conversely, if you kill the brain but the body is sitll alive, the individual identity formerly housed in that brain disappears. This is pretty much my problem with the "Lazarus Project," because when you deprive the brain of oxygen for seven minutes, it begins to die off piecemeal. Shutting off all the organ systems for two whole years would leave you with nothing to work with - especially if, as I've decided to interpret events, the subject was frozen the whole time. (Actually that should be worse, because ice crystals would form in the fluids, disrupting the tissues.)

I feel like there are really only two ways it could go. Either throwing yourself into the beam actually can't preserve Shepard's identity in any  sense, or it's created a snapshot of who Shepard was at about 31 years of age in everything but their physical form. And since Shepard's apparently been cloned once, duplication of the physical form remains an option. So either there is no Shepard any longer and  Control just kills you, or there's a complete archive of who you were that is not functionally dissimilar from the original and could, theoretically, be instantiated in a human body again. Maybe not perfectly, but with a recreation close enough to see itself as being the original Shepard, with the knowledge and experiences of the original Shepard.

[o Ventus]

Phatose wrote...

No compromise necessary. It's quite consistent. The "He" used in that ending is entirely metaphorical.

For example, I might say "The man I was 10 years ago believed. He died with that little girl."

This is not uncommon in literature. The man Shephard was 'died' in that metaphorical sense upon his ascension.  They are still the same entity.

I agree that the "man/woman I was..." line is metaphorical, but ShepardLyst is not Shepard. Both the Catalyst, the epilogue slide, and Shepard him/herself all acknowledge that Shepard is dead, like no longer living dead.

[Nykara]

Volc19 wrote...

I rather my headcanon that Clone!Shep survives his fall, and will lead the charge should the Shepalyst ever go bonkers.

It would be great for the Clone's character development.

My head canon doesn't really care if that clone died or not so long as there is another one to take its place which all that is needed for that to even happen is a small amount of Sheps DNA. His/Her helmet is seen on the ground I am sure that would have some DNA samples on it if nothing else.

[Nykara]

Jukaga wrote...

Nykara wrote...

For those supporting that Shep could come back in some form or another try this one: http://shannon.users...et/masseffect/ Your LI is essentially working on something called Shepard, Commander Platform. I think it could happen too, in fact I might keep that as my head cannon

Hey that was really cool, thanks for sharing.

Your welcome, I thought the same thing when I first saw it too. Its very well writen

[BigBad]

I think that it's entirely possible for Catalyst!Shepard to recreate a physical body for him to inhabit, and use part of himself to basically "recreate" the Shepard he used to be. After all, we have proof that his body can be successfully cloned (from Citadel), his personality and skillsets can be perfectly recreated (from the Lazarus Project), and memories can be preserved and shared and recreated (from Lazarus Project and Prothean memory-shard technology) and technology is about to take a jump past the singularity. When you get right down to it, the only difference between Shepard and Cloney is the exact patterns of electricity and chemistry in the brain.

[Reorte]

Convince me that you can accurately read a person by frying them (and that the frying is a necessary way of doing it, AND that the equipment for doing that is just lying around) and the Catalyst's hardware and software is capable of completely accurately simulating a human being (wow, someone seriously overspecced that aspect of its design) then I might buy the concept.

[seths]

If you're saying that shepard could possibly come back in control, then why can't the geth and edi come back in destroy?

[SurfaceBeneath]

Unschuld wrote...

That was "dead" in terms of lost consciousness, brought back to life through wacky pseudoscience and bad writing. The physical "meat and tubes" were still there, as well as organs/cells/neurons/chemicals etc. that contained what makes Shepard an individual. Nowhere in the narrative does it say they downloaded a copy of "The Complete Biography of Shepard" into a revived brain (because it was already there, just frozen/in stasis and "dead" for intents and purposes), even if the actual explanation is no less stupid for it.

The narrative HEAVILY implies through the ending, from the Catalyst explanation to  Shepard-lyst's speeches and slides, that the real Shepard is dead and all that remains are binary values that color the catalysts actions to more closely match Shepard's moral compass. All Shepard did when he/she bridged the spark gap was change the Reaper hive-mind perception from 1+1=2 into 1+2=3.

No, at the beginning of ME2, Shepard died. Not lost consciousness. Shepard's "brain" was reconstructed just like the rest of her body. You might cry "psudeoscience!" at that, but it's really not. Hell in the world of Element Zero and Biotics, reconstructing the neurons and protiens in someone's brain to create an exact copy of them is closer to reality than most of what's in Mass Effect. This is something that is actually theoretically possible within 50 years or so. 

At its core, all our brain is is an advanced computer. Our memories, feelings, and thoughts are all just complicated arrangements of nerves and neurons that create protiens that define these faculties. If you 100% recreate these and you basically recreate the person as they will be in all functional ways identical to the original subject. The Catalyst's wording implies that this is pretty much the same thing that was done to upload Shepard into the Reaper hive mind or whatever it was. 

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 20 mars 2013 - 03:21 .