223 réponses à ce sujet

[Uccio]

Instead of resolve button how about other ways of dealing with situation? Everything doesn't have to be about combat. Also, DA2 combat was dull and repetitive so coming up with something ala DAO style could make it more interesting.

[Plaintiff]

Yrkoon wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

If you dislike combat, the rpg genre is not for you.

What do the letters R P G in RPG mean ?

Is any of those letters in the world "combat" ?


You have a mental definition of RPG that needs combat. I disagree. To me the only thing a game needs to have to be an RPG game is to allow me to role play.

Right.  But just about all computer role playing games force you into the  Role of either a Warrior, a  Mage  or a Rogue  (or their respective variants).  This assumes combat by definition.   Otherwise you're  just Role-playing a fighter who doesn't fight,  Or a mage who doesn't fling spells etc     And there's  a different genre to describe that sort of thing:  adventure game.

Just because something is a typical convention of the genre doesn't mean it's a requirement of the genre.

It's perfectly possible to make a role playing game, fantasy or otherwise, that doesn't require combat, or doesn't feature combat at all.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I wouldn't be against this at all... but if DA3 is like its predecessors, it will not be a game like that, where combat is a rarity.

So introducing a way to skip combat as an Auto-win button would not be on the same level as saying "include more non-combat solutions." It would have th exact same level of combat, the exact same lack of other options besides combat, and it will offer the skip combat button as a consolation prize.

Thanks, but not thanks. I'd rather they fix what they can fix rather than admit defeat to the entire gameplay section of their game.

[Yrkoon]

Plaintiff wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

If you dislike combat, the rpg genre is not for you.

What do the letters R P G in RPG mean ?

Is any of those letters in the world "combat" ?


You have a mental definition of RPG that needs combat. I disagree. To me the only thing a game needs to have to be an RPG game is to allow me to role play.

Right.  But just about all computer role playing games force you into the  Role of either a Warrior, a  Mage  or a Rogue  (or their respective variants).  This assumes combat by definition.   Otherwise you're  just Role-playing a fighter who doesn't fight,  Or a mage who doesn't fling spells etc     And there's  a different genre to describe that sort of thing:  adventure game.

Just because something is a typical convention of the genre doesn't mean it's a requirement of the genre.

It's perfectly possible to make a role playing game, fantasy or otherwise, that doesn't require combat, or doesn't feature combat at all.

Sure,  it's "perfectly possible" to create just about any type of game and call it  a CRPG, but if it doesn't have combat, then it won't look like one.  it won't play like one.  It won't feel like one.    And it probably won't even be  LABLED as one. Instead, everyone in the world  will see it as what it is:  Something other than an cRPG.  And before you spew the nonsensical retort we've heard from Mark Darrah and Mike Laidlaw --- NO, Farmville and Call of Duty are NOT RPGs simply because they've got some "RPG elements".

The only type of "fresh change" we can really hope for is a game that's got *less* combat  or where combat exists but can be bypassed with non-combat skills.     And those types of games  can be *great*.when they're done right.  But the bottom line will still be the same:  Combat and everything associated with it is still there  (weapons.  encounters, combat classes).  Otherwise you're not playing a  cRPG, you're playing an Adventure game.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 22 mars 2013 - 01:31 .

[Renmiri1]

Yrkoon wrote...

Sure,  it's "perfectly possible" to create just about any type of game and call it  a CRPG, but if it doesn't have combat, then it won't look like one.

to you
it won't play like one.
to you
  It won't feel like one.
to you
    And it probably won't even be  LABLED as one. Instead, everyone in the world  will see it as what it is: 
Riight.. Everyone in the world thinks just like you. Gotcha


You are not even convincing theis whole thread so the odds that your opinion is law to "everyone in the world" are pretty low, but hey, you wanna think that it is, then enjoy your daydreaming.

I'm not opposed to combat but I play RPGs to role play and to see a story unfold. I find single player games combat tedious and clunky. Sure, I'll muddle through if the game is worth it but single player combat is not combat to me , My combat "fix" comes from MMOs.

But I have no delusions of grandeur that what feels right to me is what everyone around the world thinks... So I am perfectly fine with RPG games having combat. I just wish there was a way to skip throug h the most boring ones. On ME1 going through Virmire twice to have a save with Ashley and a save with Kaidan was a big PITA. If there was a 3rd person I had to sacrifice/ save I'd probably just not play those options.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 22 mars 2013 - 02:17 .

[Renmiri1]

PS: Just found this about WoW combat. When people all over the world take 180 days to finally kill a boss with their 40 man teams, you know combat is tough!

Nowadays it goes faster but that is because nowadays you have 10-12 million players and people who spend weeks raiding the hard boss till they down him. This is a pretty good documentary about what it takes nowadays to down a WoW boss


PPS: The latest WoW dungen Throne of Thunder is still undefeated in Heroic Mode, after 3 weeks,



So no, I'm not a "wimp" for combat, I just play RPGs to relax from raiding and combat. :innocent:

Modifié par Renmiri1, 22 mars 2013 - 03:03 .

[Plaintiff]

Yrkoon wrote...
Sure,  it's "perfectly possible" to create just about any type of game and call it  a CRPG, but if it doesn't have combat, then it won't look like one.  it won't play like one.  It won't feel like one.    And it probably won't even be  LABLED as one. Instead, everyone in the world  will see it as what it is:  Something other than an cRPG.  And before you spew the nonsensical retort we've heard from Mark Darrah and Mike Laidlaw --- NO, Farmville and Call of Duty are NOT RPGs simply because they've got some "RPG elements".

If Call of Duty is not an RPG, then clearly combat is not a defining aspect of the RPG genre.

The only type of "fresh change" we can really hope for is a game that's got *less* combat  or where combat exists but can be bypassed with non-combat skills.     And those types of games  can be *great*.when they're done right.  But the bottom line will still be the same:  Combat and everything associated with it is still there  (weapons.  encounters, combat classes).  Otherwise you're not playing a  cRPG, you're playing an Adventure game.

If an adventure game allows you to roleplay, then in what sense is it not an RPG?

[imbs]

Renmiri1 wrote...

imbs wrote...

people who genuinely want a skip combat button shouldnt be playing the game in the first place if you ask me. Might as well ask for a skip playing the video game button.

Combat and gameplay should be the(or one of the) main reason for anyone playing a video game. If you are there for the story then there are far superior stories, characters and plots all over the place in the form of books, films, VNs, television.

But they are not interactive.

And there are far better combat simulators than RPG. For all tastes. I am partial to twitch action fast paced button mashing so my "combat fix" comes from WoW raiding. Nothing in any single player game ever came near the fun of raiding with live people.

If you favor cerebral strategy based combat, there are also much better titles than an RPG. No game AI can beat a live player who is skilled. RTS games come to mind.

Boggles the mind but RPG games are famous for ROLE PLAYING not for combat. Who would have guessed ?

Such a bold statement followed by citing WoW raiding is a very interesting strategy friend. Raiding is mostly a joke tbh m8 and I have always been confused why you are so willing to advertise it so freely. Unless you are in one of the top guilds in the world it actually requires next to nothing of the player. There's a reason the average "high-end" pve raider cannot compete in arena regardless of how many hours they put into the game.

You do it to have fun with your guild, presumably. The same reason I once raided. But don't pretend its good at the combat srsly. It's better than other mmos for the most part, but good? Compared to other co-op/MP games? No chance.

RPG games have always been at least partly about combat as well. It tends to be more about the theorycrafting than the actual combat itself but still, it's always been a huge part of any RPG.

I stand behind my opinion that if you don't enjoy the combat in a game then a *skip combat button* is not the solution. Play a different game. Combat and gameplay are and should be the substance behind any good game imo, and not enjoying it just means maybe that game is not for you.

[Renmiri1]

I do compete in Arena and had a 2200 rating for quite a while. Was also part of one of the top 5 guilds in Draenor EU, which is ranked (realm)  between 20-30th (EU) 75th worldwide.  (We used to be 25th ww, people are slacking big time this expansion!)

It is too stressful and time consuming though so I'm more casual nowadays.

Compared to other co-op/MP games? No chance.

Interesting that you say that. I NEVER compared it to other co/op MP. What I said (and you seem to agree since you are not even MENTIONING single player games in the context of hard combat) is that no single player game combat can compare to online games where you play against people not a little AI.

You make my point for me. Single player combat is not the best combat there is and people who like combat don't play single player because of combat. Most people play single player to relax or because they think online co-op/mp is too stressful

Good single player games do not need combat because that is not why people play them. Hardcore combat people play MP. 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 22 mars 2013 - 03:51 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Renmiri1 wrote...

I do compete in Arena and had a 2200 rating for quite a while. Was also part of one of the top 5 guilds in Draenor EU, which is ranked (realm)  between 20-30th worldwide.

It is too stressful and time consuming though so I'm more casual nowadays.

Compared to other co-op/MP games? No chance.

Interesting that you say that. I NEVER compared it to other co/op MP. What I said (and you seem to agree since you are not even MENTIONING single player games in the context of hard combat) is that no single player game combat can compare to online games where you play against people not a little AI.

You make my point for me. Single player combat is not the best combat there is and people who like combat don't play single player because of combat. Most people play single player to relax or because they think online co-op/mp is too stressful

Good single player games do not need combat because that is not why people play them. Hardcore combat people play MP. 

"Not needing combat" and "being able to skip combat in a game designed around combat" are two totally separate statements. The DA games are based around combat. I wish they included more non-combat skills/options, but even if they do, it will still have a high volume/ratio of combat to non-combat instances. 

So including a skip combat button would not solve anyone's complaints about the combat system. It will just be a built-in excuse to not develop it or offer any non-combat solutions.

[grumpymooselion]

Every multiplayer RPG I've ever played that pit players against one another never came down to even an ounce of player skill, no matter what was claimed. It always came down to level difference, and if there wasn't a level difference it came down to gear, and if there wasn't a gear difference it came down to class x beats class y because class y beats class z which beats class x and if there wasn't a class difference it came down to particular FOTM build until a rebalance replaced that FOTM build with a new one that was once again just better than all the others. It's a cycle; pick the best class, gear and build combination for the month and win. That's multiplayer RPG combat against other players in a nutshell.

People that find something challenging in that, that think it's hardcore or requires even the slightest amount of skill boggle my mind.

[Renmiri1]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


"Not needing combat" and "being able to skip combat in a game designed around combat" are two totally separate statements. The DA games are based around combat. I wish they included more non-combat skills/options, but even if they do, it will still have a high volume/ratio of combat to non-combat instances. 

So including a skip combat button would not solve anyone's complaints about the combat system. It will just be a built-in excuse to not develop it or offer any non-combat solutions.

Good point and even I don't want a "story mode" without any combat. I just want an option to skip stuff I did already on another PT. A "New Game +" option works because you get so op on PT#2 that you just kill everything in sight until you reach endgame bosses.

@Janan Pacha -  Ya, gear can make a big difference on PVP and on pay to win games then it is pretty much THE deciding factor. But if you can't buy your way into good gear, then all it takes is dedication and skill so I'm fine with good gear trouncing bad gear on games that won't allow you to just dump gold to gear up.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 22 mars 2013 - 04:00 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...


"Not needing combat" and "being able to skip combat in a game designed around combat" are two totally separate statements. The DA games are based around combat. I wish they included more non-combat skills/options, but even if they do, it will still have a high volume/ratio of combat to non-combat instances. 

So including a skip combat button would not solve anyone's complaints about the combat system. It will just be a built-in excuse to not develop it or offer any non-combat solutions.

Good point and even I don't want a "story mode" without any combat. I just want an option to skip stuff I did already on another PT. A "New Game +" option works because you get so op on PT#2 that you just kill everything in sight until you reach endgame bosses.

Actually, you wouldn't be OP at all. Because Bioware uses level-scaling (pretty extremely in DA2, BTW). So even in the first dungeon, you will be attacked by bandits that are Level 20+. Which defeats the purpose of a NG+. One of the (MANY) reasons I despise level-scaling as a concept. 

[grumpymooselion]

If the good gear trounces the bad gear, then no . . . skill and dedication are not all it takes, one might say they don't matter at all since it obviously just takes good gear to trounce everyone else.

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 22 mars 2013 - 04:02 .

[Renmiri1]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Actually, you wouldn't be OP at all. Because Bioware uses level-scaling (pretty extremely in DA2, BTW). So even in the first dungeon, you will be attacked by bandits that are Level 20+. Which defeats the purpose of a NG+. One of the (MANY) reasons I despise level-scaling as a concept. 

Same here, Blizzard is now doing level scaling on batttlegrounds (PVP) and it has been a disaster!

Janan Pacha wrote...

If the good gear trounces the bad gear, then no . . . skill and dedication are not all it takes, one might say they don't matter at all since it obviously takes just takes good gear to trounce everyone else.

I've played with tanks or healers in greens (low level) gear and they rocked. Also played with scrubs all in top tier gear that can't even avoid standing on fire  Not even counting the many times I had to teach someone about their class 

Ya gear can mask skill but the good players shine regardless.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 22 mars 2013 - 04:04 .

[grumpymooselion]

That's not a skill difference. That's just common sense versus utter incompetence. ._.

[Renmiri1]

Janan Pacha wrote...

That's not a skill difference. That's just common sense versus utter incompetence. ._.

lol ya.. But  can we agree common sense is a rarity in many MP games ? 

[Fast Jimmy]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Janan Pacha wrote...

That's not a skill difference. That's just common sense versus utter incompetence. ._.

lol ya.. But  can we agree common sense is a rarity in many MP games  LIFE? 

Fixed that for you.

[grumpymooselion]

Maybe, but I still wouldn't think of myself as skilled if I won a match because my opponent thought the death spikes below the bridge looked springy.

[Renmiri1]

And swimming on poison stew is good for your HP...

Oh the stories we have to tell about MP!

This is annoying but is also what I like about MP and that can't absolutely be found on single player combat. MP is illogical, unpredictable, dianmic, varied, changes every month. SP combat is the same on first playthrough and on 10th PT. URGH

[Fast Jimmy]

Renmiri1 wrote...

And swimming on poison stew is good for your HP...

Oh the stories we have to tell about MP!

This is annoying but is also what I like about MP and that can't absolutely be found on single player combat. MP is illogical, unpredictable, dianmic, varied, changes every month. SP combat is the same on first playthrough and on 10th PT. URGH

But see, it doesn't have to be. 

I rock at Monopoly. Let's play right now, honestly. I'm a winner. I can take down nearly anyone I play. 

But I've lost to the computer in Monopoly before. Why? Because the person who created the game understood how to play Monopoly, so the "Hard" AI is actually really smart. 

But it seems that changing the difficulty in RPGs these days doesn't increase AI, it just increases damage done, bloats HP and assigns arbitrary immunities. 

I'd rather Hard be the enemy being so smart, they hand my taint to me. It can be done - Bioware has talented people who would know how to make the enemies be smart enough to give anyone a good run - but they don't see it as something worth doing, since the best AI (hence, the most amount of work) would only be used by arguably the smallest market (those who like playing on Hard or Nightmare). 

It isn't a matter that they CAN'T make a SP game that is smart. It is just that they don't because they think they will scare players away. 

EDIT: And conversations like this one certainly don't help in convincing them, I'm sure.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 22 mars 2013 - 04:40 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Good point and even I don't want a "story mode" without any combat. I just want an option to skip stuff I did already on another PT. A "New Game +" option works because you get so op on PT#2 that you just kill everything in sight until you reach endgame bosses.

One of my favourite things about the NWN OC is the ability to import any character into it, so you can start at whatever level you'd like.