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[Fuggyt]

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...



The key point is this line: "you can decide for yourself." Also note that Gaider's "word" is actually not decisive. He says "in my mind." He doesn't say, "This is how it was" or "This is how you should see it." He just gives one hindsight perspective onto the finished work. And it isn't 100% decisive in itself. And you have to recognize that the game's writing (by a relatively large team, mind you) wasn't perfectly consistent.

I still struggle to determine whether Ostagar was winnable myself- not decided- Cailan's advisor's testimony being the most damning for Cailan, as if Logain was forced to engage the darkspawn in a way he knew from the start would lose and then decided in advance to pull out. But then why not have out his battle with Cailan right there: "I'm not going through with this! You'll get us all killed!" He doesn't. Coward much? Oh, he'd been arguing with Cailan, sure. But if he thought it was so dire, why not refuse to be a part of it? Cailan did appear to be in a stupor of overconfidence. Shake him out of it. Anything but acquiescence. Lives were at stake, as was the outcome of the engagement.

Thans, Bhry, for putting the case more definitiively than I ever could myself.   Cailan doesn't look very shrewd at Ostagar but Loghan doesn't exactly come off as the illegitimate offspring of Hannibal Barca and Erwin Rommel, either.   To declare unequivocally that Ostagar was "unwinnable" is to diminish the deep ambiguities on which all of Thedas, let alone that battle, was constructed.  Wellington called Waterloo "the nearest run thing you ever saw in your life."  That's how I see Ostagar.  If Cailan had been a little more cautious and Loghain a little more audacious, who knows?  Maybe Napoleon takes Brussels.

[Bhryaen]

The question of this thread isn't centrally Loghain's (lack of) virtue, but rather the winability of Ostagar. Of course, the primary reason for asking the question is that the answer is not sufficiently addressed in cutscenes and such, so we're forced to make a determination largely based on estimations of the characters of everyone involved through their actions and statements. Those who like Loghain's character unsurprisingly can be found trashing the character of everyone else in the game in order to make him look better in his Ostagar decisions and others (a very extensive "everyone else sucks worse" argument) and turning simple non-Loghain questions into pro-Loghain referendi. And the main reason for asking regards whether Loghain was a complete douchebag or at least had a point, so Loghain apologism rears its head.

But let's say Cailan fired Loghain and hired you as his chief general commanding exactly the same troops as Loghain had at the same time your Warden arrives- otherwise same circumstances. Was Ostagar winnable? That non-Loghain question can't sufficiently be answered- at least not without the knowledge of the field parameters that the game doesn't provide- not enough to conclusively on evidence either exonerate or condemn Loghain either, at least on that point. (Enslaving elves to fund your anti-Warden campaign? *head chop*)

Another reason that many folks support Loghain in every way- even when his virtue is ambiguius as at Ostagar- despite it being just a game is that it isn't just a game: it's also a fantasy fiction series... in which Loghain is not the 2-dimensional villain of DAO but the liberator of Ferelden that is referred to briefly and tangentially during the game. And in the literary fiction he sounds rather interesting (never read it myself though)- and acquired a fandom. It would appear that that hero of the literature is "written" an ignominious end in DAO, however. It's like Gaider's way of ending the series with an interactive version. And DAO is all about destroying everything you've ever known- right from its inception in the Golden City getting corrupted to origin areas beset by strife to complete disaster at Ostagar, being the last of the Fereldan Wardens, Orzammar the last enclave of self-defeated dwarves, elves just a shadow of their former glory, Denerim itself going up in flames, and, yes, Loghain's undoing and end. And fans have the option to recruit him and talk with him and even let him make the final sacrifice. So it can get emotional, I suppose. And irrational. For some. But all I know is Mr. Sound the Retreat, not the lore version, so it's not so hard for me to tell him off and tell him goodbye... with a giant sword my Gray Warden would never wield...

"Yes, Cailan. Glory for us all..."

[FreakyBigGuy]

I have thought this matter of Ostagar a lot, but mostly from ingame perspective.

After all there are people from both "Cailan's side" and "Loghain's side", who were at Ostagar and state that the battle was unwinnable. Though their credibility is so and so.

It might be that the battle was unwinnable (thread subject). That still doesn't explain (for Loghain's benefit) why he committed lese-majesty during battle. In no way is Loghain hero.

Well. I'm not sure for the exact definition of hero, but I think that cowardly back-stabbing isn't allowed for aspiring hero.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bhryaen wrote...

The question of this thread isn't centrally Loghain's (lack of) virtue, but rather the winability of Ostagar. Of course, the primary reason for asking the question is that the answer is not sufficiently addressed in cutscenes and such, so we're forced to make a determination largely based on estimations of the characters of everyone involved through their actions and statements. Those who like Loghain's character unsurprisingly can be found trashing the character of everyone else in the game in order to make him look better in his Ostagar decisions and others (a very extensive "everyone else sucks worse" argument) and turning simple non-Loghain questions into pro-Loghain referendi. And the main reason for asking regards whether Loghain was a complete douchebag or at least had a point, so Loghain apologism rears its head.

That's not exactly what I meant to say. All I'm saying was that in addition to not being there (and thus not really knowing what they're talking about), Eamon and Teagan had an emotional investment in the outcome of Ostagar, rather like the emotional investment that caused Loghain to irrationally conclude that the Grey Wardens were part of an Orlesian plot. That is to say, I think of just about everyone in the setting as suffering from more-or-less realistic human flaws. (This isn't even to mention that a spy for Loghain had been caught poisoning Eamon. Even someone who actively tried not to allow themselves to be biased against Loghain would have trouble in the light of that.)

But let's say Cailan fired Loghain and hired you as his chief general commanding exactly the same troops as Loghain had at the same time your Warden arrives- otherwise same circumstances. Was Ostagar winnable? That non-Loghain question can't sufficiently be answered- at least not without the knowledge of the field parameters that the game doesn't provide- not enough to conclusively on evidence either exonerate or condemn Loghain either, at least on that point. (Enslaving elves to fund your anti-Warden campaign? *head chop*)

There's a picture in the post TEWR linked to that I believe answers the question. (As I've mentioned several times.) More specifically, it's this one.



It shows darkspawn torches stretching on from a somewhat elevated view. I will concede that this picture does not look as hopeless as I recall, but that aside I don't believe it to be all that ambiguous. I believe it's a relatively safe assumption that not every spawn would have a torch, and that no one torch would be visible from the range the picture provides. (Certainly not as visible as the picture shows.) That, plus the fact that the darkspawn are still pouring into the valley during Loghain's cutscene? The fact that there are still more pouring in as Duncan dies? (As they would be; I believe that picture shows a several mile coloumn.) I'll concede that Loghain gives it maybe a few seconds less thought than I would have, but we would have come to the same conclusion. Even assuming I had sentimental reason to not want Cailan to die, and even assuming I had the same uber-patriotism that fuels Loghain's "I do not fear death!" battlescream, the fact remains that no general should take those odds.

Edit: Okay, I just looked it up, and they seem to be less torches than... little balls of light. I dunno what's up with that, but the fact remains that there are still more darkspawn pouring into the line as Loghain leaves. Furthermore, I think the balls of light are probably either generated by the darkspawn and follow their line to provide them with light, created by the Archdemon to follow them for this reason, or designed by the Archdemon to make it look like one of the above in order to make the horde look bigger. In the first two cases, the battle is still probably a loser. In the third, it might be winnable but won't look like it. Or maybe Bioware got lazy and they're supposed to be darkspawn torches. In that case, probably still a loser.

As for the elves? I know this isn't strictly on-topic, but that wasn't for an anti-Warden campaign. That was to prosecute the war against the Bannorn. (We have this in-game, not from Gaider.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 03 avril 2013 - 12:48 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

FreakyBigGuy wrote...

I have thought this matter of Ostagar a lot, but mostly from ingame perspective.

After all there are people from both "Cailan's side" and "Loghain's side", who were at Ostagar and state that the battle was unwinnable. Though their credibility is so and so.

It might be that the battle was unwinnable (thread subject). That still doesn't explain (for Loghain's benefit) why he committed lese-majesty during battle.

I thought I already had, though. We see Loghain try to talk Cailan out of fighting on the front. From Cailan's tone, this does not sound like the first time he's tried. Loghain fails this attempt, Cailan is on the front, Loghain decides the battle is unwinnable. The stuff Loghain does after the battle is sketchy, but if we're taking as read that the battle was unwinnable, you can't also say that Loghain could have saved Cailan. I think Loghain's"lese-majesty" thing was the only option short of knocking Cailan out and carrying him to wait with the flanking force. (Which is probably illegal, necessary or not. And since we seem to be avoiding invoking the sacred Word Of Gaider, I don't think he ever came out and said any of this.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 03 avril 2013 - 12:41 .

[Bhryaen]

@Riverdaleswhiteflash
On the slavery-ftw argument of Loghain, this is why I prefaced my first comment on this thread with a reminder that the game writing is notably inconsistent in many instances. You're right that in-game he says he just had to sell people into slavery to make money. And what great leader wouldn't enslave his people to save them? Just so long as they're sold to Tevinter, not Orlais. But he also makes his slavery-ftw argument in-game for the reason I mentioned. One he says at the Landsmeet, one in private discussion (iirc). What's most clear about Loghain is that he's an inveterate liar. His testimony on anything is the least trustworthy...

As to the battle though, you can see that the line of darkspawn extends far (good pic btw) but is very thin. And light spreads further than the forces being illuminated. (Yeah, the red glow just seems like the graphics crew was going for dramatic effect, let logistics be damned. Which is why I mentioned that those "dramatic effect" enhancers do work- looks cool every time I watch it- but tend to make a more critical assessment of the actual field parameters that much more problematic.) So clearly the darkspawn horde is no paltry force, but it's also clearly narrowly contained in some ravine or something.

Now cut to the scene of General Sound the Retreat. Now that is a voluminous force, all well-armored and armed, seasoned Loghain troops at that, unlike the hodgepodge forces down at the gate, some in basic leather. And it extends far out over some ridge and spans both to the right and left with no sight of the end of them, even as they start marching away. It's just as over-the-top cinematography as the darkspawn advance, but regardless, it's quite massive. And we don't know whether the troops we see in the cutscene are the entire force, half the full force, or 1/10. This is one of the reasons I said we simply don't have sufficient info. And we can't just assume.

As to the darkspawn "pouring" in at the end, it didn't seem like that to me. The relatively thin line of darkspawn wasn't in a position to pour in- at least without trampling themselves at the bottleneck. And I was surpised at how thinned out the darkspawn were in that Cailan death scene compared to how dense they were when charging the gate. It just seemed that the forces at the gate had been exhausted (possibly due to the delay caused by my Warden looting everything as she ascended the tower) and that without Loghain's troops doing their part they had ultimately been overwhelmed. That's why Duncan looked up to see if Ishal was lit, wondering what had happened, probably recognizing the betrayal. Duncan had said that they'd have to "look to Loghain to make up the difference." (That's a paraphrase, mind you, since I'm not the best at exact quotes from memory obviously. :-P Hanz) So it wasn't going to be a cakewalk, but it was potentially doable, even promising, if costly.

Reducing the Blight's forces to 1/4 or so at that point wouldn't have been a bad thing, particularly when they had no archdemon to contend with. And however the gate forces fared, the darkspawn wait ridiculously long for my Warden to loot everything in Ferelden- from the forest to caves to mountains to cities- before being able to muster up their charge on Denerim. So even the paltry gate forces, Cailan, and Duncan's Wardens crippled them enough for that precious delay of their march north. My Warden will even spend a couple gold in tribute to their sacrifice (just after I get the Andruill's Blessing. I'm only 5 gold short...)

And again- the question isn't whether Loghain made the right decision but whether it was winnable. Perhaps I was wrong to ask to be put in Loggy's job. Loghain was out of sight of the field, no? He wouldn't have known how well the fight at the gate was going. When Ishal was lit he looked at the beacon alone before his tuck-tail-and-run announcement. I didn't see him look from the beacon down to the field, stroke his chin appraisingly, shake his head slowly and sadly, and [i]then[/] sound the retreat. He didnt turn to Cauthrosuckup and say, "Face it. This battle is lost. We can only save ourselves now. Run away! Run away!" Not to reintroduce the sinister "glorious moment for us all" guy's premeditation again, but just to say that if we were leading the brilliant flanking maneuver we wouldn't be able to assess the field either. Or why bother lighting a beacon at all if Loghain was to simply watch from a secret location and start the maneuver himself when he saw fit? (For that matter, how was Alistair supposed to know the right moment to light it anyway? But I digress.)

I mean, Ishal was primarily just to give our Warden some more XP and gold, a plot reason to not be down in the death trenches when the plot darkened before starting the open roads section of the game. So there's the writer's trick contrived plot device thingy, but I'm still holding the writers to their storyline: Ishal was the signal, so if we're to assess Ostagar's winnability, it wouldn't be from Loghain's concealed location. Gaider may want to fudge the mind of Loghain, but I'm under no obligation to overlook what details are, in fact, presented in the given artwork.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bhryaen wrote...

@Riverdaleswhiteflash
On the slavery-ftw argument of Loghain, this is why I prefaced my first comment on this thread with a reminder that the game writing is notably inconsistent in many instances. You're right that in-game he says he just had to sell people into slavery to make money. And what great leader wouldn't enslave his people to save them? Just so long as they're sold to Tevinter, not Orlais. But he also makes his slavery-ftw argument in-game for the reason I mentioned. One he says at the Landsmeet, one in private discussion (iirc). What's most clear about Loghain is that he's an inveterate liar. His testimony on anything is the least trustworthy...

Loghain's justification for this action is that there's nothing to be done if the Alienage is attacked, and that at least this way the elves don't die. I'm not sure how I feel about this argument, but I feel like at least pointing out that it exists.

As for Loghain's testimony being untrustworthy, I'd argue Flemeth has him beat there. Even her daughter doesn't believe a word out of Flemeth's mouth. Though I'm not certain of the extent to which I trust Morrigan either.

As to the battle though, you can see that the line of darkspawn extends far (good pic btw) but is very thin. And light spreads further than the forces being illuminated. (Yeah, the red glow just seems like the graphics crew was going for dramatic effect, let logistics be damned. Which is why I mentioned that those "dramatic effect" enhancers do work- looks cool every time I watch it- but tend to make a more critical assessment of the actual field parameters that much more problematic.) So clearly the darkspawn horde is no paltry force, but it's also clearly narrowly contained in some ravine or something.

I'd take credit for the pic, except that it was already on the thread, just as a link rather than directly on the thread. The only reason I bothered to actually add it was that you're the first person to even try to analyze it in three pages.

It's very thin relative to its length. Keyword: relative. I think the coloumn looks to be about the width of the valley, not counting that branching bit. That's not good.

Now cut to the scene of General Sound the Retreat. Now that is a voluminous force, all well-armored and armed, seasoned Loghain troops at that, unlike the hodgepodge forces down at the gate, some in basic leather. And it extends far out over some ridge and spans both to the right and left with no sight of the end of them, even as they start marching away. It's just as over-the-top cinematography as the darkspawn advance, but regardless, it's quite massive. And we don't know whether the troops we see in the cutscene are the entire force, half the full force, or 1/10. This is one of the reasons I said we simply don't have sufficient info. And we can't just assume.

I'm not denying its a large force, that its well armed and armored, or that it is facing something armed essentially with scrap metal. Just the same, if memory serves the darkspawn are about as strong as ten men. And I don't think that's adjusting for potential ogre presense, or the absolute crap mage supply on Loghain's end. If the pattern gameplay provides is anything to go on, about one in ten darkspawn is capable of magic. Make it one in a hundred, that's still bad news.

As to the darkspawn "pouring" in at the end, it didn't seem like that to me. The relatively thin line of darkspawn wasn't in a position to pour in- at least without trampling themselves at the bottleneck.

That's still a lot of darkspawn. And as I said above, a 1:1 ratio is losing odds for the human army.

And I was surpised at how thinned out the darkspawn were in that Cailan death scene compared to how dense they were when charging the gate. It just seemed that the forces at the gate had been exhausted (possibly due to the delay caused by my Warden looting everything as she ascended the tower) and that without Loghain's troops doing their part they had ultimately been overwhelmed. That's why Duncan looked up to see if Ishal was lit, wondering what had happened, probably recognizing the betrayal. Duncan had said that they'd have to "look to Loghain to make up the difference." (That's a paraphrase, mind you, since I'm not the best at exact quotes from memory obviously. :-P Hanz) So it wasn't going to be a cakewalk, but it was potentially doable, even promising, if costly.

The argument I hear on the forums about this is that Loghain is able to see just enough of the battlefield to know that its not time to charge. Which makes sense. He'd want to be able to see exactly where he's charging to. Since the plan was to come in from behind the darkspawn, he'd want the last of them to be in sight, at least. They do not appear to have been; they're still coming while he's in the process of leaving. (The point of the beacon, so this argument goes, was to watch for stragglers, and to make sure that there's no 20 gap in the horde that Loghain orders the charge in response to.)

Reducing the Blight's forces to 1/4 or so at that point wouldn't have been a bad thing, particularly when they had no archdemon to contend with. And however the gate forces fared, the darkspawn wait ridiculously long for my Warden to loot everything in Ferelden- from the forest to caves to mountains to cities- before being able to muster up their charge on Denerim. So even the paltry gate forces, Cailan, and Duncan's Wardens crippled them enough for that precious delay of their march north. My Warden will even spend a couple gold in tribute to their sacrifice (just after I get the Andruill's Blessing. I'm only 5 gold short...)

That can't be it. The Blight is stated to have taken about a year. Lothering died one main-line quest in, so vague passage of time aside, that would be a matter of months before the horde marched. Which would be an impressive delay if it was their doing, but doesn't account for the rest of the ridiculous wait. My interpretation? Urthemiel ground up the Idiot Ball and snorted it. (TEWR's is that they fortify Ostagar, but I see no evidence of that in the DLC.)

And again- the question isn't whether Loghain made the right decision but whether it was winnable. Perhaps I was wrong to ask to be put in Loggy's job. Loghain was out of sight of the field, no? He wouldn't have known how well the fight at the gate was going. When Ishal was lit he looked at the beacon alone before his tuck-tail-and-run announcement. I didn't see him look from the beacon down to the field, stroke his chin appraisingly, shake his head slowly and sadly, and [i]then[/] sound the retreat. He didnt turn to Cauthrosuckup and say, "Face it. This battle is lost. We can only save ourselves now. Run away! Run away!" Not to reintroduce the sinister "glorious moment for us all" guy's premeditation again, but just to say that if we were leading the brilliant flanking maneuver we wouldn't be able to assess the field either. Or why bother lighting a beacon at all if Loghain was to simply watch from a secret location and start the maneuver himself when he saw fit? (For that matter, how was Alistair supposed to know the right moment to light it anyway? But I digress.)

That actually helps my point too. Alistair lit the beacon without any idea what was going on on the ground. He seems to have lit it when the spawn were still pouring in, which does not completely eliminate the benefits of flanking but does make things less promising. Loghain might now be flanked himself by the darkspawn, if there are now enough of them. Which there seem to have been. Loghain now knows he's not going to be signaled at the right time. If the signal was necessary, Loghain is now justified.

I mean, Ishal was primarily just to give our Warden some more XP and gold, a plot reason to not be down in the death trenches when the plot darkened before starting the open roads section of the game. So there's the writer's trick contrived plot device thingy, but I'm still holding the writers to their storyline: Ishal was the signal, so if we're to assess Ostagar's winnability, it wouldn't be from Loghain's concealed location. Gaider may want to fudge the mind of Loghain, but I'm under no obligation to overlook what details are, in fact, presented in the given artwork.

Doesn't Gaider get to look at the product as a whole, actor motivations for script purposes included, while coming up with his interpretation? If indeed he actually interpreted the final result rather than directing it in that direction? So if there are details that contradict his interpretation, presumably he weighed those as well.

For my part, I adknowledge that Loghain's dialogue right before the battle is ominous, but next to the fact that balance of probability the beacon was lit at the wrong time, plus the size of the horde, I just can't see this battle as a winner with or without Gaider's word.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 04 avril 2013 - 02:10 .

[TEWR]

TEWR's is that they fortify Ostagar, but I see no evidence of that in the DLC

well, I was just throwing out a possible reason, though I lean more towards the Archdemon was sending out scattered bands of Darkspawn to play on and strengthen the peoples' belief that the Darkspawn aren't united -- a rumor heard in-game -- while also creating a bit of chaos and weakening certain areas, while also letting the Civil War take its course after Lothering is conquered so that Ferelden is weaker.

I also remember that the Banns that were opposing Loghain would maybe win a battle against his forces, only to have their decimated troops and land be easily conquered by the Darkspawn.

So I like the "Archdemon waiting for a riper fruit" theory more. It jives with what happens in-game.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 avril 2013 - 02:51 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Actually, it does make some sense in that context.

[Fuggyt]

h

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


So I like the "Archdemon waiting for a riper fruit" theory more. It jives with what happens in-game.

Well, I'm gratified you admit it's a theory.   Isn't the same true of Ostagar?   You're an honest guy, Ethereal.  "Unwinnable" is pretty categorical.  It might be your conviction, but can you say the available evidence precludes any possibility of victory?  Suppose I say the evidence is 99% against Loghain (it's not, he has a far better case than that).  Can you say it's 100% the other way?

Personally, I respond negatively to Loghain.  Maybe I'm just a traditionalist in my story preferences and maybe I'm just too shallow to ignore my lyin' eyes.  But he comes off as pretty sinister and his ex post facto actions don't inspire the warm fuzzies.  I enjoy this debate, though, and admire Loghain's defenders.  I want them representing me the next time I'm falsely accused, and even more so if I'm accurately accused.  I just can't call the case as completely conclusive either way.

My assessment of Loghain's character is that he was catastrophically wrong.  Unlike Howe, though, Loghain knew the difference between good and evil.  He genuinely believed everything he did was for a greater good, and if he was ruthless in pursuit of that goal it doesn't indict his motives.  When his failure was revealed he accepted his fate like the hero and patriot he was born to be.  I see in his story tragic nobility like that of Macbeth rather than the pure evil of an Iago or the tortured innocence of a Hamlet.

That's why I almost always kill him.   

Modifié par Fuggyt, 04 avril 2013 - 04:15 .

[TEWR]

"Unwinnable" is pretty categorical. It might be your conviction, but can you say the available evidence precludes any possibility of victory?

I can. With the (approximated) knowledge of how many forces were at Ostagar coupled with the size of the horde itself, while also factoring in the other factors at play -- redundancy FTW -- that include Cailan ruining the battle plan and actually making things harder on the troops, the Darkspawn invasion of the Tower of Ishal, the time it took for the Wardens to clear it out, the fact that Alistair doesn't really check the field to see if the Darkspawn are committed, plus the relative strength of each Darkspawn in regards to how they fight*....

Then it was definitely without victory. Maybe if Loghain had Teyrn Cousland's full forces and the man himself as well, Arl Howe's forces, Arl Eamon's forces, the Mages of the Circle and the Templars... then maybe there would've been a chance of victory as Loghain would've come up with a different strategy to best make use of these people.

Maybe if Ishal hadn't happened either. Maybe if Ostagar was better fortified. Maybe if Cailan wasn't a moron when it came to strategy, as he was told to draw the Darkspawn into the valley, which is best done if Cailan's men are guaranteed protection on two of their flanks (left and right). Cailan's charge exposed their left and right flanks, rendering them susceptible to the military term on the previous page.

The one where an enemy can, will, and does surround you completely if they have enough forces.

But with what forces were there and factoring in everything else? No. It wasn't winnable. The horde may not look like it's very vast in width when you're standing upon the bridge, but that's a trick of distance. Things always look smaller then they are when you're far away.

Up close, that horde was wide. Certainly it was long, with no visible end in sight. But it was also wide.

*Meaning not only the fact that they have a crapton of Mages, but that a single berserking Hurlock is a match for a dozen foes. And that they have dozens if not hundreds of Ogres in the horde, living siege weapons that can crush foes easily and even regenerate if not dealt with properly. 

That's not even accounting for the broodmothers that have been churning out thousands of Darkspawn for four centuries beneath Thedas and are still doing so, or the number of Genlocks that are no doubt in the horde, or the Blighted animals and Ghouls fighting alongside the Darkspawn, or the Archdemon's unified command where all Darkspawn follow it (as opposed to the possibility of soldiers tucking tail and running for the hills).

The evidence for Ostagar is damning of it being a critical failure.

EDIT:
Hell, I'd lay more blame at Howe's feet for why the Blight progressed so strongly as it did. Loghain's not without blame, mind you, but Howe's actions seemed to be the ones that really screwed Ferelden over.

Killing Teyrn Cousland, usurping Highever and Denerim, oppressing the people, neglecting to send his men to Ostagar, purging the Elves for the hell of it (thus rendering any chance of them wanting to join Loghain's forces out of the question), stealing from the treasury, bringing the idea of slavery to Loghain (that Loghain did sign off on, for understandable reasons, but he still bears blame for the signing. I don't hold it against him, given everything else, but I won't say he can't be condemned for that), and manipulating Loghain no doubt into refraining from seeking Anora's aid -- since Anora was clearly the best choice to go to for political insight given the lack of Teyrn Cousland, if Loghain was to think his daughter too grief-stricken to think clearly. 

Along with other things. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 avril 2013 - 10:09 .

[cJohnOne]

If the darkspawn were truely unbeatable then the Grey Wardens wouldn't have been able to defeat the blight previously. Or so I assume.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

cJohnOne wrote...

If the darkspawn were truely unbeatable then the Grey Wardens wouldn't have been able to defeat the blight previously. Or so I assume.

The Wardens win at Denerim because the darkspawn all flee when the Archdemon dies. It really feels like a deus ex machina, but there it is. That wasn't an option at Ostagar.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fuggyt wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


So I like the "Archdemon waiting for a riper fruit" theory more. It jives with what happens in-game.

Well, I'm gratified you admit it's a theory.   Isn't the same true of Ostagar?   You're an honest guy, Ethereal.  "Unwinnable" is pretty categorical.  It might be your conviction, but can you say the available evidence precludes any possibility of victory?  Suppose I say the evidence is 99% against Loghain (it's not, he has a far better case than that).  Can you say it's 100% the other way?

Now that's the sort of probability that requires DnA evidence. So I'll concede that this isn't that airtight. But if you go back over the evidence, I think it's more than 50% for our side. 95%, maybe.

Personally, I respond negatively to Loghain.  Maybe I'm just a traditionalist in my story preferences and maybe I'm just too shallow to ignore my lyin' eyes.  But he comes off as pretty sinister and his ex post facto actions don't inspire the warm fuzzies.  I enjoy this debate, though, and admire Loghain's defenders.  I want them representing me the next time I'm falsely accused, and even more so if I'm accurately accused.

I'm enjoying this too.

I was hoping to go to law school. Could you write me a recommendation?

I just can't call the case as completely conclusive either way.

Well, maybe not completely. But I still think a Loghain who fits Gaider's interpretation makes more sense than one who doesn't, and that this is even more true with regards to Ostagar.

My assessment of Loghain's character is that he was catastrophically wrong.  Unlike Howe, though, Loghain knew the difference between good and evil.  He genuinely believed everything he did was for a greater good, and if he was ruthless in pursuit of that goal it doesn't indict his motives.  When his failure was revealed he accepted his fate like the hero and patriot he was born to be.  I see in his story tragic nobility like that of Macbeth rather than the pure evil of an Iago or the tortured innocence of a Hamlet.

That's why I almost always kill him.   

I'm not denying Loghain screwed a lot of things up. I'm just saying that he was right by more than a preponderance of the evidence to withdraw from Ostagar, and while he was wrong in his conclusions that the Wardens screwed the country over, nothing he had access to would prove that. I still kill him more often than you'd probably think from this defense, though.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 04 avril 2013 - 11:32 .

[cJohnOne]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...

If the darkspawn were truely unbeatable then the Grey Wardens wouldn't have been able to defeat the blight previously. Or so I assume.

The Wardens win at Denerim because the darkspawn all flee when the Archdemon dies. It really feels like a deus ex machina, but there it is. That wasn't an option at Ostagar.

I meant blights as in this is the fifth blight.

[Fuggyt]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...



I'm not denying Loghain screwed a lot of things up. I'm just saying that he was right by more than a preponderance of the evidence to withdraw from Ostagar, and while he was wrong in his conclusions that the Wardens screwed the country over, nothing he had access to would prove that. I still kill him more often than you'd probably think from this defense, though.

Preponderance of the evidence?  You are ready for law school.  I see the preponderance mostly the other way, when I pre-ponder it, but I'm willing to concede that's just my opinion.  And you know what?  So is Gaider:

"The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy
clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception or if it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit.  He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then."

Notice that Gaider believes Loghain "prepared for the possibility" that "he would walk away."  Surely an astute law student such as yourself recognizes premeditation when he sees it.  The civil jury I'm on assigns 60% of the blame to Loghain's twisted perception, 30% to Cailan's tactical errors, and only 10% to the darkspawn and apporitions damages accordingly.  Court stands in recess.

Modifié par Fuggyt, 04 avril 2013 - 11:47 .

[andy6915]

I think the horde was much bigger then they expected. My evidence is Duncan and Cailan's facial expressions when the horde appears.





That is not the expression of people who think the battle will go well..

Modifié par andy69156915, 05 avril 2013 - 12:22 .

[Monica21]

Fuggyt wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...



I'm not denying Loghain screwed a lot of things up. I'm just saying that he was right by more than a preponderance of the evidence to withdraw from Ostagar, and while he was wrong in his conclusions that the Wardens screwed the country over, nothing he had access to would prove that. I still kill him more often than you'd probably think from this defense, though.

Preponderance of the evidence?  You are ready for law school.  I see the preponderance mostly the other way, when I pre-ponder it, but I'm willing to concede that's just my opinion.  And you know what?  So is Gaider:

"The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy
clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception or if it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit.  He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then."

Notice that Gaider believes Loghain "prepared for the possibility" that "he would walk away."  Surely an astute law student such as yourself recognizes premeditation when he sees it.  The civil jury I'm on assigns 60% of the blame to Loghain's twisted perception, 30% to Cailan's tactical errors, and only 10% to the darkspawn and apporitions damages accordingly.  Court stands in recess.

I "prepare for the possiblity" of a lot of things. I run virus scans on my computer. I get the oil changed in my car. I keep my resume updated. I keep my car keys between my fingers when I walk to it at night. If I scratch an attacker's eyes out, is it my fault for carrying the keys or his fault for attacking me?

While I understand your point, being prepared is not premidatation. It's what you would do in the worse-case scenario, and Loghain found himself in the worse-case scenario. Premeditation assumes Loghain had intended on letting Cailan die and saving himself long before Ostagar, and Gaider says no such thing.

Modifié par Monica21, 05 avril 2013 - 12:38 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fuggyt wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I'm not denying Loghain screwed a lot of things up. I'm just saying that he was right by more than a preponderance of the evidence to withdraw from Ostagar, and while he was wrong in his conclusions that the Wardens screwed the country over, nothing he had access to would prove that. I still kill him more often than you'd probably think from this defense, though.

Preponderance of the evidence?  You are ready for law school.  I see the preponderance mostly the other way, when I pre-ponder it, but I'm willing to concede that's just my opinion.  And you know what?  So is Gaider:

I suppose opinion is what all this boils down to, but surely having a picture to point to and the agreement of the guy in charge of compiling all the images and voice-acting and script counts for something?

"The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy
clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception or if it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit.  He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then."

Notice that Gaider believes Loghain "prepared for the possibility" that "he would walk away."  Surely an astute law student such as yourself recognizes premeditation when he sees it.  The civil jury I'm on assigns 60% of the blame to Loghain's twisted perception, 30% to Cailan's tactical errors, and only 10% to the darkspawn and apporitions damages accordingly.  Court stands in recess.

Allowing the battle to competely depend on the single point of failure that is the Tower of Ishal is the mark of a reasonably poor general, when you have mages who can signal an entire battlefield. If, as you suggest, he left half his army to die in the middle of a disaster, just to kill some kid who (to the best of Loghain's knowledge) his daughter had influence over anyway, he's a still worse general. But if he hadn't prepared for the possibility that he'd walk away, he's worse than either. There's always a risk in battle, and you always need to be ready to cut losses.

(By the way, I think my state does contributory negligence in Civil Law. If Cailan was the king of Maryland, he couldn't recover losses.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

cJohnOne wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...

If the darkspawn were truely unbeatable then the Grey Wardens wouldn't have been able to defeat the blight previously. Or so I assume.

The Wardens win at Denerim because the darkspawn all flee when the Archdemon dies. It really feels like a deus ex machina, but there it is. That wasn't an option at Ostagar.

I meant blights as in this is the fifth blight.

So did I. I just thought if the Fifth was typical, the no-longer-Blight only loses because the darkspawn retreat when the archdemon dies. They might still be capable of winning, lack of a controlling intelligence not-withstanding, if they didn't.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 05 avril 2013 - 02:03 .

[andy6915]

I think the battle was winnable. Had they stayed in the excellent defensive line they had before the charge, with Ostagar protecting their flanks, they could have held out for an EXTREMELY long time. Enough so have probably outlasted the darkspawn. Any decent dwarven general who had deep roads experience could have won Ostagar.

Which reminds me, last dwarven noble I played, I RP'd that she realized the battle was probably lost before she even got to the tower. She was already well experienced and learned when it came to fighting darkspawn and leading people against them. She practically smacked her forehead and groaned when she saw Cailan lead his forces out of the defensive line and into a open melee brawl. Stupid human generals, they don't know WHAT THE HELL they're doing... Somebody get a proper dwarf general down into that valley!

[Bhryaen]

lol But the look on his face!... is not evidence. I see the same faces in that pic and instead see Cailan's usual bravado, Duncan's reserved confidence. Bout it. No fear of the horde (which hadn't even arrived in the cutscene at that time).

Speaking of facial expressions, here is where they're looking when Ishal's beacon says "Go!":



Not so decisive of anything really, just clearly not looking down into any valley battlefield intently and appraisingly while only glancing up at Ishal momentarily… sort of like he was waiting for the signal to retreat, not to attack. (He's saying "retreat" at that moment...)

When Cauthy mentions Cailan, he wisely and sagaciously and pragmatically and heavy-heartedly suddenly grabs her arm roughly and explains away her confusion by mentioning, "Cuz I say so!" (Not an exact quote.) He had his reasons. Good enough. Shut up! It's war, dammit! I can do whatever I want... and lie about it afterwards if need be...



That's when he gives this expression. It has concern for those troops written all over it. Nothing sinister about that expression whatsoever, and you'd have to be a terrorist and a heartless bastard to say so. Teagan's "desperate man" echoes mockingly from the background...



Then he turns away abruptly. "Hmph! So there!" They're very close, those two.



Cauthrien- who either was also oblivious to the battlefield conditions or had also been watching the battlefield with Loggy (before the cutscene obviously since neither look down once during the entire cutscene)- is flabberghasted, seems to think retreat is an obviously preposterous idea- the furthest thing from her mind. One could suggest she's just not ruthless enough (one must be ruthless after all- the virtue of all virtues) and should be sharing the same smug, bitter, self-absorbed expression Loghain has, but perhaps she really does see both the field conditions and the troops at their command, has concluded that they’d wipe the valley floor with the horde’s entrails (gross!),  and is genuinely looking at the back of Loggy's head with a "WTF?" expression for that reason... because it's totally winnable. And Loghain's is not exactly an expression of critical appraisal for the scene before him. More along the lines of egotism, cutthroat treachery, and dark deeds... and wisdom and heartbreak and stuff too, of course...

So much for reading expressions for evidence. And I'm willing to surrender all that as simply my reading into things... even if no one else is willing to do the same. You see, genuine evidence isn't so easy to come by as an impression- and often not as colorful either- and sometimes disappointing. But to get a factually sufficient answer for whether Ostagar was winnable, we need more evidence than we get. So I'm not arguing the contrary that Ostagar was winnable. I'm mentioning the simple fact that we haven't got sufficient evidence either way... that the picture is so incomplete that it could indeed go either way… and that guessing and conceiving of some elaborate revisionism that could (maybe) be true, but might just as well not be… is, well, not knowing. And knowing is what the thread’s question called for... sort of...

As an aside, I prefer evidence in the scientific method rather than the legal one because lawyers are all about winning cases, not uncovering the truth. Scientists have to actually get the facts straight- or they lose their jobs or are discredited- while lawyers have to manipulate facts and/ or fiction to their advantage. But that's just my ultimate preference... If I were in court, I’d be fine with whatever was necessary to get me the not guilty verdict. This just isn’t a lawyerly question. It’s a fact-based one.

So here's Exhibit A: the Loghain troops as they hear the preposterous command to retreat (and in unison seem to send the same "WTF?!" look to Loghain)... well, not really all the troops, just the ones we see right there. They start marching and a sea of little motes stretches back over that ridge as far as the eye can see. And, yes, this group of Rock-Knocker-helmed combatants is wide indeed... and also long. And marches in deadly, organized lockstep rather than the sloppy monstrous way of darkspawn.



But how many are there in total? Not one of us can answer that. Not one. Lack of evidence. Though if I were a genlock I think I might be nudging my pal and pointing and suggesting retreat if I were to spot that massive phalanx. That’s a hypothetical, of course, since, well, Loghain tucked tail and ran, so… no Ostagar genlock ever had to trouble itself.

Now compare that scene to this one of the spawnmeisters... Mind you, the nice photo from the bridge earlier in the thread was a picture of them at the start of the battle. This one is of them later on, supposedly around when Cailan got the bad breath treatment. Teethbrush much?



I watched the Cailan-Duncan death scene repeatedly, trying to catch some good view of the field behind the ogre or Duncan to estimate the size of the remaining spawn forces. This was the best I could snap- an abated background of spawns, not overly many but obviously defeating the gate forces and Wardens by this point.



So there are clearly plenty of them still at the end. Of course, if we go all the way up to just before the top of Ishal and back down to the bridge we'll still have the scene of the start- so they’re “still pouring in” indefinitely… until we finally get to the top of Ishal. Then one floor up and we're at the end of the battle. But regardless, still a large amount at that point... but larger than that impressive horde of Loghain troops (however big it is)? Not really. It doesn't show the line stretching back into the woods anymore, so does it or is that all the darkspawn left? The scene isn’t complete. We have no evidence- just impressions. They may have been mown down to that visible remaining mob even without Loghain's troops. And, yes, then it would be cakewalk for Loghain’s forces to trap and crush them against the gates, even with Cailan and Duncan dead.

And they'd gotten into a nice position for a flankin' at that point, squished between the gate and Loghain in the back... though where are Loghain's troops supposed to come from to "make up the difference?" We don't know. How far away are they? We can speculate... but we don't know. Did they have catapults? Did they have boulders to roll into the valley? (Not if it wasn't a scene in "Braveheart...") Maybe they're in a great location. Maybe they're too far back. Maybe their flanking maneuver wouldn't need to envelop the spawn ranks entirely but rather cut the enemy lines in half, allow the gate troops to rally and meet them in the middle on one side over a mass of dead darkspawn, then mow down whatever rearguard ranks are left among the spawnies. Or maybe the spawnies are really still too overwhelming. We don't know- at least not from the cutscenes.

Funny the TEWR list of oh-so-daunting forces on the darkspawner side. And not mentioned were the shrieks and dragonlings as well. That comprehensive defeatist sort of picture should make Loghain consider retreating his troops not just from Ostagar but from Ferelden… maybe to Tevinter to live with the slavers he considers worthy tradesfolk. They're just not beatable! Run! And, yes, they'll have boss emissaries and boss ogres- and they'll do their usual massive damage. But they'll also have grunts- lots and lots of grunts. Like the ones we see all the way down at the Broodmother or right there in Ishal  afterward or later in Denerim- the same crowds of weakling hurlocks and genlocks who we one-shot by the dozen at Redcliffe Castle with a single Scattershot. And we know Loghain's troops have Scattershot if we've ever faced that Cauthrien firing squad at the Arl of Denerim's Estate. And those dreaded Hurlock Berserkers... oh, no!... who we routinely kill all through the game. One of them to ten of those Loghain troops? Please. More like 2-3 hurlocks to one seasoned Loghain troop. And Loghain's troops will not be one huge blanket of Lvl 1 Warriors themselves. They’d be permeated by higher level rogues and warriors as well, just like the soldiers we end up killing on the road and such- you know, because Loghain tries to kill us... That scene with Leliana at the tavern right at the start of the game should give an inkling as to what Loghain's troops would've brought to bear, and that was only five of ‘em, and not the best. Ogres do go down with enough hits, and, yeah, those might be ten to one- depending- but there’d be an army on their hides, not a little band of four. Boss emissaries can be prevented from casting by a Lvl 1 stun or knockdown talent. It's not like Blights hadn't been won before.

(And, mind you, Loghain presumably saw the field of spawners and decided then it “wasn't a "true Blight," decided civil war was an option at that point, had no operative plan in effect to counter the darkspawn to which he’d left Lothering as a parting gift. This is a bit worse than Cailan having concluded it "wasn't a true Blight" before the Ostagar enemy forces arrived and before seeing what they were up against, no?)

If we're to give up on our prospects at that point when there was no archdemon blazing everything around it and the surface darkspawn numbers hadn't even swelled to the Denerim amount- and cower about our prospects not due to conclusive evidence but simply due to bigger nasties being present at all- we may as well drop our swords, pack our bags, and flee to Orlais as refugees without a fight. Thedas is doomed from the start! All hope is lost! We may as well promote the doomsayers at Lothering and Redcliffe to general now... But that’s what separates Gray Warden leadership from Loghain’s.

And with all those scary monsters against them plus the Archdemon, the remnants of Loghain’s and Redcliffe’s forces later do prevail in Denerim. They immediately retake one portion of the city and hold it successfully against an otherwise unchecked Blight. Teagan is still there at the end- and he wasn’t the most powerful warrior. And they do this pretty much alone- no forces from all those army factions our Warden treaty was supposed to gather. Those factions just stand by to assist the Warden’s path to the Fort and Archdemon. By that late moment the relatively wide/narrow stream of spawnies must have swelled considerably- and accumulated much more deadly assets. Yet the allies weren’t overrun at Denerim and were still holding them at bay and felling them after the protracted period of looting and XP hunting that my Warden did through the city and all the way up through the Fort before Archy was killed. So the Ostagar Loghain troops- unphased by civil war and far more numerous- would’ve been marching into battle with far fewer spawnies, thinned already by the gate troops and pinned in a valley, and no Archy… and tucked tail and ran…

And that brings up Archy. That bit of non-evidence-based, pure-speculation-derived fiction is probably the funniest. The Archdemon as some sort of diabolical genius… Have you fought it? It’s one of the easiest battles in the game. It has never come close to defeating me- and I’ve never summoned a single ally faction and always play Nightmare. It’s just tedious. The emissaries that emerge from the door- ok, those are a problem. But their pet dragon? It prances around (looking very cool, but still) with its ineffectual purple cloud breaths and ineffectual angry snarls. Here! Purple on you! Haha! Gotcha!… It’s highly susceptible to Taunt… like all diabolical geniuses. If it jumps next to you, you move away. It can’t follow without another jump so you just keep whacking it with arrows from a few steps away. So it bellows again… in frustration. It’s retarded. We should feel guilty for taking advantage. Maybe it'd be ok in a zoo? There’s a recent post about a 5-yr old beating it. lol It’s a massive, small-brained beast. If it “talks to the horde,” it isn’t in complete sentences. It inspires the horde… cuz it’s big. And loud. And breathes fire (except in the end battle). When we “see” it in dreams, its “speeches” are more like wolf howls than “Braveheart” entreaties to “free men!” And before one goes praising the intelligence of wolves, well, they’re not exactly able to make critical, strategic assessments of human society (much less even know that a civil war is going on… or what a civil war is… or war… or civil…) We’re talking predatory eating machines that didn’t evolve to quote Shakespeare or build civilizations. The darkspawn are destroyers and havoc-wreakers. Bout it. This is why Awakenings shocks the player with the first talking versions. The DAO crop is just chaos fodder.

If that Ostagar line of spawnies were really that massive already with an omniscient genius dragon guiding them (as genius a strategist as Loghain), they’d have laid waste to everything immediately. They’d never have bothered with that well-defended Ostagar position and gone after more promising quarry. With the disarray across all of Ferelden at that point, no thanks to General Sound the Retreat, it’d been no bother at all. Blitzkrieg. Then on to Orlais to breathe purple on.

But who knows? Maybe they did have those forces and were simply led by a stupid beast that had no understanding of what was happening, and thus that was the reason for the spawny delay before attacking Denerim. That would be consistent too… But not a fact. Just a speculative explanation. Others are equally valid… and equally fiction.

And I can live with the indecisiveness of the story, the never knowing for sure if Loghain pulled out because he saw the darkspawn as too much or he did so simply to ensure he’d make his daughter rule alone with himself by her side… or the other way ‘round since daughters never grow up, according to him.

The best comment I’ve seen on this thread was by Ferritinabun here: 

I believe the matter is deliberately vague to keep Loghain an ambiguous villain.

Was he a prudent general unwilling to sacrifice essential troops on a lost cause? Or a traitor whose skullduggery cost the Fereldens the battle?

Since he didn't stay, we'll never know. And it's great that way.

The full logistics of Ostagar are intentionally inconclusive, not an oversight by the writers. Or else they were entirely an oversight, just plain sloppiness, but also serendipitously brilliant. It produces intrigue and wonder for the player and sparks imagination, deepens the interest in probing the game for answers. The game gets these silly conversations and debates going about nothing- about fiction, of all things, something made-up. If Gaider was conducting “politics” to win over the Loghain-haters, he was also doing the same to win over the Loghain-supporters. There is no answer ultimately to be had on Ostagar, just immersion. As someone other than I has mentioned, it’s a natural part of the roleplaying experience, something exact science is not. So enjoy storytelling as you wish… but don’t expect to establish some pro-Loghain DAO storyline canon by merely weaving tales about inconclusive events that the full gamut of players throng to the game to experience with a completely different creative approach... and that even the writers have yet to provide incontrovertible accounts of... ;-)

Modifié par Bhryaen, 05 avril 2013 - 06:26 .

[Bhryaen]

@Riverdaleswhiteflash

On the slavery-is-a-nifty-solution question... a side issue... you've only now introduced Loghain excuse #3 for resorting to selling off Fereldens to slavery:

1. Cuz you Wardens were makin' trouble for me, so I had to fund the campaign against you.
2. Cuz I needed to raise money for my fratricidal military ventures, what with the civil war I'd promulgated.
3. What? Them elfs were better off slaves than darkspawn dead.

Of course, the Denerim elves did survive the Blight and got to resume their shantytown daily life after all, but still...

Excuse after excuse is put forward... Hard to see how Loghain was regretful of anything. I can just imagine the boardroom meeting...

"So... we need to raise funds. Ideas?"
"Bake sale?"
"No."
"Maybe make some concessions to banns, end the civil war, less costly that way, fewer dead."
"Hell no."
"The dwarves like our ale. Maybe we could..."
"Forget it."
"How about selling off the alienage elves to Tevinter slavers? That should bring in... well, not exactly a fortune, but..."
"No, wait, that's brilliant!"
"Well, it's not like they'd go for 1000gp each..."
"So? Go on."
"OK, well, we'd also have to accept losses for housing the Tevinters and their thugs in maybe some elaborate scheme of faking a sickness going on, provide them cover for the operation, some losses from occupying the alienage..."
"Doable. Go on."
"And we'd be middle men, so we'd only be getting a cut of the action..."
"I'm sold. How about you, Loggy boy?"
"Sound the retreat!"
"We already did that. I mean on enslaving alienage elves. You in?"
"Oh... sure. But my heart is heavy on it, Howe."
"Works for me. I'll get right on it."

*head chops all 'round*

[TEWR]

And not mentioned were the shrieks and dragonlings as well

Well, Dragons weren't sighted anywhere near the Wilds, which was another factor as to why people didn't believe it was a Blight. During Blights, the Archdemon tends to also have a few dragons at its beck and call (something observed in game by a few encounters with Dragons alongside Darkspawn/Ghouls).

As for Shrieks, while I believe they do have a presence in the battle we don't actually see any there, for some reason.

But also remember that the Darkspawn and Archdemon are not mindless beasts now. This is a Blight, where the Archdemon gives the Darskpawn intelligence in how they act. We even see this reflected in-game by the Darkspawn's use of oil and fire -- that a Genlock Mage created -- in Ishal itself, along with its instructing the Darkspawn to invade the Tower*.

*No doubt the plan was discovered by Archie because of the connection the Wardens have. The Wardens can sense, hear, and listen in on the Archdemon due to the Taint. Logic dictates the reverse is true.

But they'll also have grunts- lots and lots of grunts. Like the ones we see all the way down at the Broodmother or right there in Ishal afterward or later in Denerim- the same crowds of weakling hurlocks and genlocks who we one-shot by the dozen at Redcliffe Castle with a single Scattershot

We're playing a Warden. Killing Darkspawn should come naturally by the time of Blight's nigh end. And note that in Awakening, the Darkspawn aren't "one-shotted" like they were in-game.

Also, the soldiers of Redcliffe, if they fight the Darkspawn invading the Redcliffe area which are also labeled grunts, still aren't able to kill them in one shot like we are. And they'll get their asses handed to them if they don't get any help.

Especially because of the two Darkspawn Mages on the sides.

Furthermore, the only time Darkspawn could truly be one-shotted lorewise is immediately after their birth, where they're in a toddler-esque stage.

And those dreaded Hurlock Berserkers... oh, no!... who we routinely kill all through the game. One of them to ten of those Loghain troops? Please. More like 2-3 hurlocks to one seasoned Loghain troop. And Loghain's troops will not be one huge blanket of Lvl 1 Warriors themselves. They’d be permeated by higher level rogues and warriors as well, just like the soldiers we end up killing on the road and such- you know, because Loghain tries to kill us... That scene with Leliana at the tavern right at the start of the game should give an inkling as to what Loghain's troops would've brought to bear, and that was only five of ‘em, and not the best. Boss emissaries can be prevented from casting by a Lvl 1 stun or knockdown talent. It's not like Blights hadn't been won before.

The problem with much of this is that it's an argument predicated on gameplay equating itself to lore, as opposed to reflecting it.

Gameplay does not equal lore. It must reflect it to be applicable as an argument. It's lore that a single basic Hurlock is a match for a dozen normal people -- which is seen in Redcliffe, for instance, and other places. Our party is not "normal" by any sense of the word, by virtue of being the Warden's buddies on the road.

If we were to take Ser Cauthrien's group in Denerim as being indicative of anything, it'd be indicative of a certain faction in Loghain's command called Maric's Shield -- an elite force that Cauthrien commands in Loghain's name -- and NOT indicative of Loghain's forces' overall strength in regards to all the men he personally commands.

Ogres do go down with enough hits, and, yeah, those might be ten to one- depending- but there’d be an army on their hides, not a little band of four.

The Darkspawn have their own army as well. You're not going to be able to assault an Ogre while his cohorts look on and drink tea waiting for you to finish.

And with all those scary monsters against them plus the Archdemon, the remnants of Loghain’s and Redcliffe’s forces later do prevail in Denerim. They immediately retake one portion of the city and hold it successfully against an otherwise unchecked Blight

Yeah, with the aid of a couple thousand Elves, thousands upon thousands of Dwarven soldiers, possibly Golems, dozens upon dozens of Mages, and hundreds upon hundreds of Templars. Possibly Werewolves in place of Elves.

Dwarves bring experience and knowledge about the Darkspawn that they can give to regular soldiers and make up for the Warden's lack of being able to give it to everyone.

Mages provide artillery fire.

Templars nullify Darkspawn magic.

And the Elves provide the equivalent of sniper support.

Denerim is only won because Ferelden's forces had major support from different groups. Remove them and Denerim would've been a flop.

(And, mind you, Loghain presumably saw the field of spawners and decided then it “wasn't a "true Blight,"

Numbers alone is not indicative of the Blight's veracity. Only that the Darskpawn are numerous to pose a very real threat all their own, something Loghain notes that they must deal with immediately and sensibly to the Landsmeet.

And the Landsmeet decides "Hey, wait a minute, Ser! Let's focus on politics first! To war my brethren! Bring down this bastard!"

decided civil war was an option at that point

He didn't start it. The Bannorn did, first by taking issue with something the Queen of Ferelden was content to allow, next by gearing up for war.

Their demands that he step down from the regency would've likely, in my mind, ended up with Loghain being stripped of his titles and lands, imprisoned, put on trial for "regicide and usurping the throne" as they'd call it, and if not imprisoned for life would be held to be executed.

Which Loghain's allies would not allow to happen. The Civil War would still happen because of people like Teagan not only prioritizing politics over uniting against the Darkspawn -- even though Loghain approached them very ****ing poorly about the idea -- but just being very short-sighted in general.

And that brings up Archy. That bit of non-evidence-based, pure-speculation-derived fiction is probably the funniest. The Archdemon as some sort of diabolical genius… Have you fought it? It’s one of the easiest battles in the game.

Again, gameplay does not equal lore. Whether it's easy to beat in gameplay has no bearing on its lore status, unless it's noted in-game by people that defeating an Archdemon is easy. But then Alistair happens to say, if the Warden talks of the Archdemon appearing at Ostagar, how they should "soil their drawers" which indicates a real threat. It's said as a joke, sure, but it's a joke making light of the situation they'd be placed in -- that they'd have to deal with the Archdemon -- as opposed to a joke making light of how dangerous their foe is supposed to be.

What IS lore is that the Darkspawn are moving about the countryside in scattered bands, seemingly "unorganized" and thus the people continue to believe with even more conviction that the Darkspawn aren't unified.

What IS lore is that the Archdemon does talk to the horde, such that older Grey Wardens actually understand what it says.

What IS lore is how it communicates to the horde in Darkspawn Chronicles. The events of the Darkspawn conquering Denerim and Ferelden isn't canon, but the ability for the Archdemon to communicate full sentences and commands to the horde is canon.

What IS lore is that the Archdemons are the Old Gods, and the Old Gods are noted to be immense Dragons of vast intellect that communicated to the Mages of Tevinter.

What IS lore is that Paragon Aeducan, my Ancestor, saw that the Darkspawn horde displayed a change in tactics. And by change in tactics, it was an actual display of tactics. The Archdemon gave them such purpose.

What IS lore is that some Banns and Arls would fight Loghain's men independently -- they weren't united until Eamon was restored -- and maybe win a victory against them, only to have the Darkspawn come in and conquer their lands because the Fereldan troops were weakened by the fights with Loghain.

And what is common military sense is that if your enemy is destroying himself from within and you want to conquer them, then it's best to let them weaken themselves as much as possible fighting each other so that it's easier for you to conquer them.

If that Ostagar line of spawnies were really that massive already with an omniscient genius dragon guiding them (as genius a strategist as Loghain), they’d have laid waste to everything immediately. They’d never have bothered with that well-defended Ostagar position and gone after more promising quarry. With the disarray across all of Ferelden at that point, no thanks to General Sound the Retreat, it’d been no bother at all. Blitzkrieg. Then on to Orlais to breathe purple on.

Why face an enemy head-on and lose 400,000 troops in conquest when you can bide your time, let your enemy destroy himself, and swoop in at their weakest and defeat them with only a loss of 30,000? 

Sure, the Archdemon could've conquered Ferelden easily. But he's sitting, waiting, biding his time and hoping for the opportune moment to arise. Then he would've struck and taken out Ferelden, regained his strength by creating broodmothers EVERYWHERE, and moved on to Orlais or the Free Marches.

The Blights of old took decades -- in the case of the First, 200 years -- to be defeated, because they're not easily defeated. They get easier as the years go by provided the Wardens are prepared to deal with them because they have former experiences and events to draw upon, but that doesn't make them easy to defeat at all.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 avril 2013 - 09:27 .