253 réponses à ce sujet

[haisho]

The issue isn't that the Juggernaut is tanking anything.
The issue is that Juggernauts who are so focused on tanking/meleeing absolutely everything that they forget they actually have a gun they can use that will kill standard troops at double/triple the speed their melee damage would do.

It's one thing to know when to employ tanking tactics. It's another to stubbornly march forward just to melee grab that random Assault Trooper in the middle of a spawn even though you could probably shoot over the cover he would have run to while you're slowly plodding your way to him. With a decent weapon, you could melt him, as well as one or two of his friends in the same time frame you waste walking there. There's nothing to bring your shields down if there's nothing to shoot you, and the time you waste slowly making your way to grab range is time they spend shooting at you.

In all honesty, it's just plain bad tactics, as it gives the impression that they'd slog their way towards a spawn that's backed by Ravagers and/or Scions without a second thought.

Modifié par haisho, 20 mars 2013 - 07:56 .

[Offender_Mullet]

Air Quotes wrote...

Even when they are in full health they walk around grabbing everything. Just place your freaking shield and shoot dammit. Meeleing is for survivability only not for DPS. 

And sure, go ahead and grab those Phantoms. But don't toy with those troopers. 

They choke. You shoot/bio esssspolsion and rack up kills. Yay, more points for you. That's how you handle over-zealous choking Jug teammates.

[Clips7]

RenewalXVII wrote...

Jiovanie- wrote...

I find myself asking that very same question. You're not helping anyone by force choking the one Phantom on the field. You're helping putting that shield between us small fries and that Atlas. When you get a good Juggernaut, the match is so easy, though.

Have to disagree regarding Phantoms. Considering the pain they can be, I always force choke Phantoms just to keep pressure off my teammates.

Otherwise, yeah, I ignore the mooks and tank the big guns for my team.

This pretty much...phantoms at any point can be a real pain....but i don't feel he should meleeing EVERYTHING lol...he's a tank so he should also be out there causing havoc. But when i do see a Juggy meleeing something, i try not to kill it since i know he's recharging shields,...but if i'm a vanguard (which most of the time i'am..phoenix/slayer) i will thank the juggy for holding up that enemy so i can charge it.......hey i need to recharge me shields too and your shields are much more sturdier than mine!!....

Modifié par Clips7, 20 mars 2013 - 08:22 .

[EloreRainbrought]

so can you ask darth vader not to choke?

[EloreRainbrought]

best experience currently. ...1 jugg 1 human adept 1 asari adept 1 collector... that a big exposion tou got....

[Uchimura]

NexionSE wrote...

Uchimura wrote...

I agree with this notion. Had a gold game earlier. I was nearby a Juggernaut and I died, leaving the Praetorian that killed me with 1 bar left of armor. Sat there for 10 seconds as the Juggernaut melees him, trying to finish him off, and then someone else comes and resses me. (Yes, I know it was my fault I died and I was waiting for a res. I would've gelled anyway if this guy wasn't right next to me. Though the Juggernaut was still meleeing everything in sight and doing butt for damage.)

Just an example. I know the heavy melee actually does kill stuff nicely, but definitely need the setup for it and I'd still be shooting most things like normal if I brought the Jugger.

jugg's have problem getting away from a Praetorian at gold + if they don't already have some distance and or is at full shield then they can walk away from them to rez and not die when doing it. yea thats with max shield fitness and 40% dr so you should have geled

and that pretorian should have died after half a HM as it deals way more then 1 bar of armor

He had a reegar too and I'm pretty sure it was the only thing around.

[OneOldPlaya]

First, it is fun. Second, you need about a gazillion points for the Dog of War challenge. Thats why, I Omni-bow every thing I see with my Talon Merc.

[Shadow Storm]

Only the bad Juggs insist on meleeing everything. With that said enemies tend to have a tendency to blatently charge players making it hard to resist heavy meleeing the little pipsqueeks into submission.

[Horace530]

The 5th rank of Fitness/Melee is that when you kill a enemy with heavy melee, you got 15% movement speed bonus for 10 seconds, and that really helps for the slow hulking Jugg
Also against Brute, Banshee and Praetorian, heavy meleeing them is a very ideal way to keep pressure off your teammates, while they can't inflict enough damage to break through your sheild.

Most people may not have notice this, but the Heavy melee can actually stuns Seeker Swarms/Plague, just in case you run out of Siege Pulse or being caster-disabled, or simply is changing mag, making sure they won't set off and potentially kills you and your nearby teammates.

[Felhand]

I also heavy melee for easy kills, pick phantom up, splatter phantom across the wall with claymore. Dodge that sucker.

[megabeast37215]

Lucius Aelius wrote...

What mystifies me is this idea of "tanking" and "support" that doesn't involve killing things. As I've said repeatedly now it's the Volus argument all over again, and Jugg's heavy melee is the new shield boost. Yes it does make you nigh-invincible and yes it helps your teammates, but people seem to think that's an excuse to not kill things (with more than heavy melee) as well, which I frankly don't understand unless all such people really are just that bad at the game and they can't handle playing normally (actually using guns and powers).

I don't like carrying people who are playing above their skill level (sends people the message that ruining other people's fun because you're greedy is okay, which it isn't), so when I see anyone playing in a brain-dead manner without shooting or using powers to kill things, I see that person as essentially a leecher playing a difficulty they otherwise wouldn't be prepared for in the hopes of being carried, and if nothing else I don't want to play with them.

In addition, the simple fact is that both Volus and Juggernauts have the potential to deal out not insubstantial quantities of damage with their weapons and powers (no matter how you spec them), and not using them to kill things is choosing not to live up to either character's potential. Anyone who is only half-playing their character is doing it wrong and is at least a semi-leecher (as is anyone who goes into a game expecting to need to be carried or expecting others to be dealing out all the DPS).

Then there's this idea of tanking that involves specifically standing in a massive group of enemies and just heavy meleeing ad nauseam, as though that's the "right" way to play the Juggernaut, which it just isn't. Play the Juggernaut normally, backing up from boss enemies so they never surround you while still keeping them occupied is hardly difficult. Add to that actual shooting and power use, and you can "tank" all the bosses while also being the person who kills them, a far more effective (and infinitely more fun) way to use the GJ.

I would not presume to say there is only one right way to play the Juggernaut, but there most certainly is a wrong way, and most people I've seen are unequivocally doing it wrong.


tl;dr: Being a true team player in a shooting game requires you to kill things and not expect others to do the killing for you.

QFT... totally totally QFT

The amount of people alone in this thread who are advocating the 'I don't need to kill my teammates can kill everything' playstyle is head scratching.

I have no problem getting my fair share of kills/score. I don't even use the heavy melee that much.

I might make a thread about it.

[Homey C-Dawg]

If I stop to melee a husk or trooper out of nowhere, it's probably to keep my movement speed bonus going.

[Seneva]

I melee most because I think it's a fun way to do the mission. Sorry that I do not play like how you want me to play.

[megabeast37215]

Heri: I made a thread describing how I play the Juggy... it should be on the front page. I addressed a lot of your points in there... I just don't have it in me to repeat myself here. I put a good bit of thought into it.

[hyperthreadz]

I did eight Bronze solos last night with the Juggy back to back with very very little melee at all just to see what it would take. No sweat. I did not die once. I figured I'd test it to see how much melee I relied on, and it was only when I was backed against a wall.

[hyperthreadz]

Air Quotes wrote...

hyperthreadz wrote...

I did eight Bronze solos last night with the Juggy back to back with very very little melee at all just to see what it would take. No sweat. I did not die once. I figured I'd test it to see how much melee I relied on, and it was only when I was backed against a wall.

 

You can actually do Silver to without meleeing at all easily. Gold will be tougher. But just grab those pesky Phantoms, Siege Pulse the Dragoons. Shhot everything else. 

Mission Complete 

May attempt to solo Silver tonight as I feel pretty good about it.  Last night it was three matches of Cerberus, Two Geth, Two Reapers, and one Collectors.

[Arctican]

Heri wrote...

megabeast: Great, you posted a built for a DPS Juggernaut...has nothing to do with tanking. Your build can't tank much of anything because you don't take Power Transfer. If playing a weapon-based Juggernaut works for you, that's fine. But you're not tanking.

I can have 2 bosses and multiple mooks beating on me at once in plat, without dying. Could probably tank 3 bosses at once for a time as long as they're not all Praetorians. You can't do that with your build, because it's built around a completely different playstyle.

If you can't get why it would be beneficial to have a teammate playing a tanking Juggernaut (as I described in my last post), then ultimately we're just talking past each other because you're fundamentally opposed to people doing anything other than shooting things.

I think megabeast's argument is that you can tank and kill stuff at the same time. If you play smart, Power Transfer is not needed. There's no need to just tank aimlessly unless you're on an objective wave and you're purposely drawing all the attention away from the objective.

[FlowCytometry]

Heri wrote...
The point of tanking is CONTROL, not killing things as fast as possible. Let me lay this out once and for all. If you're tanking, your priorities are:

1a. Get threat on everything in sight
1b. Stay alive
2. Kill things

This is true of tanks in MMO's w/ the Holy Trinity setup, but that's not what ME3 MP is. Nothing in ME3 MP requires a comitted tank unit; in horde mode you kill or be killed, so killing is the default priority for everybody- Juggy included. The more you go out of ur way to 'tank' the more ur teammates have to pickup the slack; prolonging matches unnecessarily is something you should be trying to avoid. Even in a full 'tank' build, the Juggy is still best served killing stuff w/ his weapon(s) to prevent getting overrun in the 1st place.

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 20 mars 2013 - 02:39 .

[ladyvader]

TBLKNIGHT wrote...

Hey at least you haven't run into one that had the batarian gauntlet equipped......my desire to scream at some random person has never been so high. Also when I spec my Jugg I don't spec into his passive, I max out everything else for survivability because I expect my teammates to do all the killing.

I equipped that once on the Juggy and regretted it for the entire match.  Haven't used it since.  Might put it on an asari for the LOL though.

[hyperthreadz]

ladyvader wrote...

TBLKNIGHT wrote...

Hey at least you haven't run into one that had the batarian gauntlet equipped......my desire to scream at some random person has never been so high. Also when I spec my Jugg I don't spec into his passive, I max out everything else for survivability because I expect my teammates to do all the killing.

I equipped that once on the Juggy and regretted it for the entire match.  Haven't used it since.  Might put it on an asari for the LOL though.

I did that with a Volus.  Never laughed so hard.  I quit within twenty second of using it and rethought the way I use my gear.

[Heldarion]

Wouldn't you want to be meleed by juggs?

[megabeast37215]

Heri wrote...

megabeast: Great, you posted a built for a DPS Juggernaut...has nothing to do with tanking. Your build can't tank much of anything because you don't take Power Transfer. If playing a weapon-based Juggernaut works for you, that's fine. But you're not tanking.

I can have 2 bosses and multiple mooks beating on me at once in plat, without dying. Could probably tank 3 bosses at once for a time as long as they're not all Praetorians. You can't do that with your build, because it's built around a completely different playstyle.

If you can't get why it would be beneficial to have a teammate playing a tanking Juggernaut (as I described in my last post), then ultimately we're just talking past each other because you're fundamentally opposed to people doing anything other than shooting things.

Why tank something when you can kill it? Why increase the length of games 15-20% be willingfully decreasing your teams DPS?

My build still has 6500 shields + 40% DR... you trying to imply that's not enough?