455 réponses à ce sujet

[ZDR2473]

Ok, for me the romance options for female gamers wasn't remotely as insulting as how BW changed the physical appearances of femshep and malesep and how they carried themselves. To me several things screamed sexism. 1. did mshep and every other human male all decide at once to get a gym membership and workout every day for at least 3-4 hours a day for the 6 months shep was supose to be under "house arrest" ? 2. did anyone else notice how they changed how femshep jogs around from place to place,I mean was that supose to be more fem. That anoyed me every time saw it because that really screamed sexist. 3. what is up with mshep getting a nice leather N7 jacket and jeans when shep wants to go casual, but femshep gets a shiny space dress or she can wear the outfit she wore durring ME2. I think that the real issues of female vs male gamer equality needs to start with speaking out or up about how female characters in games are protrayed by the gaming industry. Femsheps bodytype was pretty much the same skinny arms, big back-side and wide hips. That may sound petty to some but it would of been easy to add optional body types. If anyone has ever played Dragons Dogma you have simple and realy great way to customize your characters body be it male or female.....just my two cents.

[Mims]

I don't think bioware is consciously trying to alienate female players. But we were the first on the cutting black. Thane needed more content- but his death was inevitable. Jacob was pure 'we don't want to spend the money.'

They clearly put a little more time and effort into Garrus and Kaidan's romance. Garrus in particular has a LOT of extra little lines hidden here and there that aren't attached to a romance scene. Unfortunately it came down to who was more popular.

As far as Vega's romance is concerned....Bioware has honestly never been that good with female characters starting romances. Jacob in ME2, even Garrus in ME2, had shades of this weird stilted 'hey baby' dialogue. DA2 was pretty awful too- in order to even 'paragon' romance Sebastian you basically sexually harass him. And some of the responses to Fenris are ridiculous. Isn't there a line where she/he turns his comment about slavery into a come on?

But yes. At the end of the day: budget. I'd say it was alienating female players if the romances were the only thing lacking in the game- but it wasn't. So much of the end portion of the game is riddled with obvious cuts.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

You're going to argue with me that a significant percentage of players canonically romanced Jacob?

I'm simply calling you out on your bullsh*t nonsense. You said NO-ONE "canonically" romanced Jacob. I prove you wrong.

I'm going to argue that you're full of sh*t, that's what I'm going to argue with you.

I don't know the percentages of players who "canonically" romanced Jacob, and neither do you.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 20 mars 2013 - 04:01 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Xplode441 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Perhaps I should clarify. Nobody romanced Jacob canonically. 

And again, you're talking nonsense.

Again, I'll mention 3 real-life friends, who romanced Jacob, yes, on their first and main playthrough. So yes, "canonically" as you put it.

Now please stop talking nonsense. You think you know a lot, but you really know nothing. Keep that in mind next time before you start typing. Thanks in advance.

Not quite sure what you guys are really arguing over or what the point of it all is, but I'd like to say that three friends in real life doesn't make a great consensus for the literal tons of players who played the Mass Effect series.

And I'd like to say that three real-life friends who "canonically" romanced Jacob prove that David's argument (that NOBODY romanced Jacob "canonically") is a load of horsecrap.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 20 mars 2013 - 04:05 .

[The Heretic of Time]

pawswithclaws wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

pawswithclaws wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Isichar wrote...

They just need more experience writing for female fans. Whether or not you like it gaming has been geared towards males for the most part. I am happy Bioware is actually attempting to improve in that sense at least because it really is something the gaming industry needs to move away from if it ever wants to grow.

As far as I am concerned the only group that really got shafted was the Jacobmancers.

Which is how it should be. Males are the bread and butter of the game industry.

And women are the bread and butter of the clothing industry. Better get used to wearing dresses, then.

Last time I checked, men need clothes as much as women do.

And last time I checked, women "need" games as much as men. If women should settle with games being geared towards men because they are the majority, then perhaps men should settle for wearing clothes geared towards women.

Last time I checked, that isn't true. Nobody NEEDS games. And most women couldn't care less about video-games. It is as you put it: the majority of gamers are men. The majority of game developers are also men. The video-game industry is a male-dominant market.
The clothing industry is not a female-dominant market. 50% of the world population is male and we need clothes as much as females do.

If more women would show an interest in gaming, more games would be developed with women as a part of the target-audience in mind. And guess what? That is exactly  what we see happening in the game-industry these days, BioWare being a lead example of that.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 20 mars 2013 - 04:14 .

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

I'm surprised you still argue about the female romances.Think of it this way,do you know many games where you can play as a female character?

[HiddenInWar]

Reading this thread makes me lose hope for this community more and more.

[dreamgazer]

HiddenInWar wrote...

Reading this thread makes me lose hope for this community more and more.

Based on what side of the argument?

[pawswithclaws]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

pawswithclaws wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

pawswithclaws wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Isichar wrote...

They just need more experience writing for female fans. Whether or not you like it gaming has been geared towards males for the most part. I am happy Bioware is actually attempting to improve in that sense at least because it really is something the gaming industry needs to move away from if it ever wants to grow.

As far as I am concerned the only group that really got shafted was the Jacobmancers.

Which is how it should be. Males are the bread and butter of the game industry.

And women are the bread and butter of the clothing industry. Better get used to wearing dresses, then.

Last time I checked, men need clothes as much as women do.

And last time I checked, women "need" games as much as men. If women should settle with games being geared towards men because they are the majority, then perhaps men should settle for wearing clothes geared towards women.

Last time I checked, that isn't true. Nobody NEEDS games. And most women couldn't care less about video-games. It is as you put it: the majority of gamers are men. The majority of game developers are also men. The video-game industry is a male-dominant market.
The clothing industry is not a female-dominant market. 50% of the world population is male and we need clothes as much as females do.

If more women would show an interest in gaming, more games would be developed with women as a part of the target-audience in mind. And guess what? That is exactly  what we see happening in the game-industry these days, BioWare being a lead example of that.

On the flip side, perhaps more women would be interested in gaming if more games were less overwhelmingly geared towards men? And yes, women and men need games in equal amounts, aka not at all. I never said that that anyone actually did.  Obviously hyperbolic comparison aside, the idea that most gamers are male, therefore it's okay that games are geared towards them "and this is how it should be" doesn't really seem all that progressive.

I'm pleased that more games seems to take into consideration that players might actually be of the female persuasion, and more than happy with the development. But the notion that something is "okay", or "how it should be" because it has always been that way hardly seems constructive.

Modifié par pawswithclaws, 20 mars 2013 - 04:36 .

[Holger1405]

dreamgazer wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

Reading this thread makes me lose hope for this community more and more.

Based on what side of the argument?

I second this

[The Heretic of Time]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

do you know many games where you can play as a female character?

Yes, I do. To name a few:

Tomb Raider series (all of them)
Metroid series (all of them)
Mirror's Edge
Bayonetta
WET
Perfect Dark
Perfect Dark Zero
Borderlands
Borderlands 2
Dragon Age
Dragon Age 2
Mass Effect series (all of them)
Jade Empire
Resident Evil (almost all of them)
Lollipop Chainsaw
Final Fantasy X
Final Fantasy X-2
Final Fantasy XIII
Final Fantasy XIII-2
American McGee's Alice
Alice: Madness Returns
Saints Row 2
Saints Row: The Third
Remember Me
Dead Island
Assassin's Creed III: Liberation
Portal
Portal 2
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2
Fallout 3
Fallout: New Vegas
Morrowind
Oblivion
Skyrim
Heavy Rain
Claymore
Fatal Frame
And almost every single MMORPG


This is just a few out the top of my head. I'm sure there are plenty more video-games where you (can) play as a female lead character.

People should stop whining about the industry being "geared towards men". It's obvious that there are also plenty of games out there made for women, or games that are at least "female-friendly", if you know what I mean.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 20 mars 2013 - 04:55 .

[HK-90210]

The fact that Thane was dying when Shepard met him gave at least some measure of warning to the player that, hey, maybe Bioware is going to kill him, due to plot. I find it hard to complain about that. I think they could have done the emotional aftermath of his death a lot better, which I think they managed to accomplish with Citadel.

The fact that James was presented as an attractive male human, in a prime place on te squad to fill the role of the 'leading man' thant Kaidan and James had filled(at least before you got Garrus), turns out to be a big tease is kind of a dickish thing for Bioware to do, IMO, since it purposefully teases a solid portion of their fanbase, and there is no emotional payoff whatsoever. And frankly, a drunken one-night-stand in Citadel does little to change this. But if they wrote James to be that way from his conception as a character, I guess there's not much to argue about. He was never meant to be a LI. Bioware had no obliation to ther fanbase to make him one, however much sense it might have made to said fans.

Jacob, however, was another story. He already was a romance. And Bioware did have an obligation to do their best at writing his character arc into ME3, romance and all. And in this, they failed miserably. They didn't need to put a LOT of time an effort into it, but they sure as hell could have done better. And before you argue that Bioware always intended to go the direction they did with Jacob, look at the leaked scripts. No, the didn't. Their decision to do this was a recent one, which explains the complete lack of forshadowing or warning signs for the player.

The fact that Jacob, presented as a stable personality in ME2, a man who wanted Shepard around becasue she was a soldier, that was the only LI to say 'I love you', cheats on Shepard with Dr. Brynn, who then shoves it in Shepard's face that he's 'better off with me'? Sorry, Bioware needed to give at least some measure of warning if they're gong to pull that kind of ****. This, more than anything else, makes me angry at Bioware. Not the endings. Not the lack of closure. I have an imagination, I can headcannon.

But this? Who the **** thought it was a good idea to do this to their fans? No, Jacob wasn't popular, but their answer to that was to completely destroy him as a character for people who did like him? Well, if that was their intent, they did a damn good job. Bravo, Bioware. Bravo.

Edit: Also, the lack of an explaination from Bioware as to why they tought this was a good idea, I think is indicative of severl things. One, how little people care about him as a character(which, I think, made Biwoare beleive that his romance was an easy place to cut expendatures. Can't say they were wrong there.), and just how badly they know they did.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 20 mars 2013 - 04:53 .

[s17tabris]

If you're playing straight femshep, you're doing it wrong.

[The Heretic of Time]

pawswithclaws wrote...

On the flip side, perhaps more women would be interested in gaming if more games were less overwhelmingly geared towards men? And yes, women and men need games in equal amounts, aka not at all. I never said that that anyone actually did.  Obviously hyperbolic comparison aside, the idea that most gamers are male, therefore it's okay that games are geared towards them "and this is how it should be" doesn't really seem all that progressive.

I'm pleased that more games seems to take into consideration that players might actually be of the female persuasion, and more than happy with the development. But the notion that something is "okay", or "how it should be" because it has always been that way hardly seems constructive.

I think people are making too big of a deal out of this. Many people complain how the game-industry is "geared towards men", but how geared towards men is the industry really?

I mean honestly, I know plenty of games that are female-friendly. Most games are in fact gender-neutral.

The Legend of Zelda or Super Mario can be as much fun for a woman as for a man, even though you play a male protagonist in both series.

Just like Tomb Raider or WET can be as much fun for male players, even though the protagonist in both games is a woman.


Honestly, I hear this "game-industry is geared towards men" argument often, but I don't really see where this argument is based on. To me it sounds like a heavily exaggerated argument.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 20 mars 2013 - 05:00 .

[DoodlyDangus]

arr0whead wrote...

If you're playing straight femshep, you're doing it wrong.

Nah mate, Garrus feels very very RIGHT.

Anyway, I like to play as a chick and romance dudes, so I feel left out. It's a good thing I tend to pick Garrus, because Kaidan bores me in comparison.

[Calamity]

piloteyre wrote...

Is it even arguable that straight Femsheps don't have worse options than straight Dudesheps? As another poster pointed out, it's entirely possible and very easy to have 0 romance possibilities with a straight Femshep, while straight Dudesheps have Liara (for a relationship) and Allers (for a fling) no matter what.

I mean... that's kinda crappy no matter how you look at it. And I don't think people want all the characters ever to be automatically romanceable, but it's reasonable to expect that if EVERY male LI is either going to be dead/otherwise unavailable, a new one be added in to make up for it. I mean, I don't see how this is difficult to understand? I'm a diehard Garrusmancer, so I've never had an issue with the ME3 LIs, but I wouldn't think it's helpful to just tell my fellow female gamers to just romance Garrus and get over it. They just want choices the way male gamers (or gamers who choose to play a straight male Shepard) get choices. Pretty reasonable, I think.

[eddieoctane]

It's EA who doesn't give a damn about female gamers. Though with John Riccitiello gone, things may change. Doubtful, but still possible.

[RedBeardJim]

Trying to? No, almost certainly not. That doesn't mean they don't screw up sometimes, and they definitely screwed up the Jacob and Thane romances (in the case of Thane, they even admitted to screwing it up). Were a small percentage of players actually affected? Sure. But a small percentage of several million is still a lot of people.

Modifié par RedBeardJim, 20 mars 2013 - 05:53 .

[Caprea]

To me, quality goes over quantity. I don't really care how many romance options I've got in a game, as long as they're well-written, believable and have some decent amount of screen time. And when it comes to quality romance, I honestly think female Sheps don't have all that much to complain about.
Aside from that, I believe that romances have become inreasingly overrated, anyway, but that's just my opinion.
The thing is: Just because BioWare handled some romances poorly (for both male and female Sheps) doesn't mean they want to alienate anyone. This assumption is way over the top. Their games have been quite gender-neutral so far, actually. To say they're trying to alienate their female fan base based on your dissastisfaction about the romances alone is... well. The people who honestly think that are reading too much into this whole thing.

[Sanunes]

What they should have done is made it so you could start a romance with Kaiden like Ashley if you haven't romanced them before, but other then that I think people are reading too much into it.  

[RedBeardJim]

Sanunes wrote...

What they should have done is made it so you could start a romance with Kaiden like Ashley if you haven't romanced them before, but other then that I think people are reading too much into it.  

Um...you can. Either as Femshep or Dudeshep.

[schebobo]

ZDR2473 wrote...

Ok, for me the romance options for female gamers wasn't remotely as insulting as how BW changed the physical appearances of femshep and malesep and how they carried themselves. To me several things screamed sexism. 1. did mshep and every other human male all decide at once to get a gym membership and workout every day for at least 3-4 hours a day for the 6 months shep was supose to be under "house arrest" ? 2. did anyone else notice how they changed how femshep jogs around from place to place,I mean was that supose to be more fem. That anoyed me every time saw it because that really screamed sexist. 3. what is up with mshep getting a nice leather N7 jacket and jeans when shep wants to go casual, but femshep gets a shiny space dress or she can wear the outfit she wore durring ME2. I think that the real issues of female vs male gamer equality needs to start with speaking out or up about how female characters in games are protrayed by the gaming industry. Femsheps bodytype was pretty much the same skinny arms, big back-side and wide hips. That may sound petty to some but it would of been easy to add optional body types. If anyone has ever played Dragons Dogma you have simple and realy great way to customize your characters body be it male or female.....just my two cents.

LOL

[dreamgazer]

I certainly support a fat MaleShep for ME4.

[andy6915]

@schebobo

Off topic, but where is that awesome GIF from, your avatar GIF I mean?

[Isichar]

andy69156915 wrote...

@schebobo

Off topic, but where is that awesome GIF from, your avatar GIF I mean?

Pretty sure its from the trailer for the new Cyberpunk 2077.