455 réponses à ce sujet

[LilyasAvalon]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

With Thane you knew there would be an end to it rather sooner than later. You knew damn well he was dying when you started that romance. The fact that Thane dies doesn't make his romance any worse though. In fact, I, a straight male player, thought the Thane memorial and video-recordings for femShep who romanced him where one of the best and most emotional parts in the Citadel DLC.

About Jacob: He was fairly hated by most (female) fans back in the ME2 and well... things like this happen. Not everything is always about Shepard I suppose.

They could've allowed more moments with Thane though in the vanilla game. I mean, prior to both Citadel and EC, there was next to NO mention of him, his death or his romance with a female Shepard. I was surprised actually that he was essentially thrown to one side, he was a big favourite amongst female fans.

And with Jacob, it's a classic example of some of the bad writing that exists within Bioware. Even if Jacob wasn't popular, what he did to a romanced female Shepard was COMPLETELY out of character for him, especially after his loyalty mission in ME2. They did the same thing when people ****ed about not liking Harbringer, he was almost obsessive about Shepard in ME2, then suddenly goes to being non existant in ME3. I mean, WTF? If you're going to write off a character, at least do it in a feasible way.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 20 mars 2013 - 08:43 .

[David7204]

Okay, that is just stupid. Making (what you might consider) an unlikeable character is not 'bad writing.' I never saw Jacob as particularly loyal, or at least more loyal than the other squadmates.

As for Harbinger, he only spoke to Shepard through the Collectors. That's it. He doesn't have a magical link to Shepard's mind. Even if there was a confrontation with Harbinger, it would almost certainly be just that -one confrontation. Singular.

Modifié par David7204, 20 mars 2013 - 08:47 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Read back, the person who brought up the bisexuality is you, I didn't even mention the word. 

I did read back. All I see is you constantly complaining about the (lack of) gay options in Mass Effect, even though this thread isn't even about that. I mentioned bi-sexuality once, and you dare to call me out on it? Hypocrite much?

For the polygamy, that's why I said it's strawman.

That was not a strawman. Get your terminology right.

ok, I'll definitely stop now. I'm not in a mood to argue.

You said that last post too. And the post before that... And probably in the next post too...

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 20 mars 2013 - 08:50 .

[Battlebloodmage]

David7204 wrote...

Okay, that is just stupid. Making (what you might consider) an unlikeable character is not 'bad writing.' I never saw Jacob as particularly loyal, or at least more loyal than the other squadmates.

As for Harbinger, he only spoke to Shepard through the Collectors. That's it. He doesn't have a magical link to Shepard's mind. Even if there was a confrontation with Harbinger, it would almost certainly be just that -one confrontation. Singular.

I think the problem is Jacob's break-up is out of nowhere and without warning, at least Thane had some foreshadowing. 

[Ieldra]

@OP:
I don't think Bioware is trying to do anything. The lack of options - which I feel intensely when I play femShep and mostly end up romancing no one - is an unfortunate consequence of the combination of separate factors.

Factor 1: Liara. Look at the LIs available for non-imported games:
femShep: Liara, Samantha and Kaidan
maleShep: Liara, Steve and Ashley

It was the same in ME1, only without Samantha and Steve. Balance-wise, the decision to include Samantha was wrong because femShep already had a gay option (and don't give me that "monogendered" nonsense - femShep/Liara is a gay romance for all intents and purposes). FemShep should've gotten a second straight option instead. Note that I like Samantha, so it's not personal preference speaking.

Factor 2: Thane
I like the way his story goes. It was handled badly in the main game in ME3, but it was pretty clear Thane would die at some point in the story, and Citadel DLC was a beautiful conclusion. But beautiful or not, his death contributed to the lack of options for everyone who wanted a happier end - which would be most of the femShep players.

Factor 3: Garrus
Garrus' romance in ME3 is absolutely worth playing. Possibly the best option for femShep in ME3. However, Garrus is not human, and there are players like me who avoid interspecies sex because we're not willing to suspend our disbelief for it.

Factor 4: Jacob
This is the only thing that feels like a deliberate snub by the ME3 team. I get the feeling they didn't want to create romance content for the 0.1% of players who romanced him, and some resentment of fans' reactions to him may also have played a part. However, that this affected femShep romances is accidental. Had a straight maleShep LI been as unpopular and as ridiculed by fans she would've gotten a similar  treatment.

What I see it four decisions made in isolation, with nobody on the ME3 team being aware of their combined impact before it was too late to change anything.

The unfortunate, but accidental result: straight femSheps who want a human LI are reduced to one option.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 mars 2013 - 08:51 .

[SmokePants]

I'm sorry, but you can't make the decision to leave Kaiden to die in ME1 and then complain that there are no human males for a FemShep to romance. You created your own problem. I mean, he was the only male romance PERIOD in ME1, why would you kill him? Because you played it after ME2 and thought you'd have Jacob forever and always and Kaiden was expendable? You know what they say about when we assume.

I know that the romance options weren't symmetrical between male and female Shepards. Thane's death created some pretty awesome scenes, so I feel like that was justified. Not sure why they did what they did with Jacob. They probably looked at how unpopular he was and decided to allocate resources elsewhere. Or maybe that's just what his writer wanted to do and nobody told them, 'no'.

But if there's any company that shouldn't be accused of mistreating female players, it's BioWare. They have done a ton to be inclusive. The best way to keep them on that track is to APPRECIATE their efforts toward that goal, rather than take them for granted.

Modifié par SmokePants, 20 mars 2013 - 08:53 .

[LilyasAvalon]

David7204 wrote...

Okay, that is just stupid. Making (what you might consider) an unlikeable character is not 'bad writing.' I never saw Jacob as particularly loyal, or at least more loyal than the other squadmates.

Context of character is the point I'm making and it IS bad writing.

Look at how it was done. Jacob was almost the FOCUS for a female Shepard in ME2, almost cramming him down our throats. Then he's suddenly dropped like a hot bowl of soup? No option on OUR part what WE may have wanted? 

More to point, the WAY he was dropped. Girlfriend gets jailed for 6 months? Better go hook up with another chick, get her pregnant and not tell now ex-girlfriend until she shows up to save your arses? Now, I don't know about you, but Jacob never struck me up as that kind of man in ME2.

Even regarding Miranda he admits that 'she deserves a better man than I'. His character seems to be more old school, no beating around the bush and certainly no scurrying behind people's backs.

As for Harbinger, he only spoke to Shepard through the Collectors.
That's it. He doesn't have a magical link to Shepard's mind. Even if
there was a confrontation with Harbinger, it would almost certainly be
just that -one confrontation. Singular.

... Did you not play Arrival? Shepard DID get a confrontation with Harbringer. Which leads me to question more, by Arrival, they must've certainly known how baddly Harbringer was recieved, why not just kill him off then?

And why would Harbringer even bother to contact Shepard at all then? Through the collectors or as he did in Arrival.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 20 mars 2013 - 08:56 .

[Ageless Face]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Factor 1: Liara. Look at the LIs available for non-imported games:
femShep: Liara, Samantha and Kaidan
maleShep: Liara, Steve and Ashley
The unfortunate, but accidental result: straight femSheps who want a human LI are reduced to one option.

It was the same in ME1, only without Samantha and Steve. Balance-wise, the decision to include Samantha was wrong because femShep already had a gay option (and don't give me that "monogendered" nonsense - femShep/Liara is a gay romance for all intents and purposes). FemShep should've gotten a second straight option instead. Note that I like Samantha, so it's not personal preference speaking.

Include Kaidan too for ManShep, and you have 2 romances for gay ManShep. Traynor added for FemShep is fine.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 20 mars 2013 - 08:55 .

[Battlebloodmage]

HagarIshay wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Factor 1: Liara. Look at the LIs available for non-imported games:
femShep: Liara, Samantha and Kaidan
maleShep: Liara, Steve and Ashley
The unfortunate, but accidental result: straight femSheps who want a human LI are reduced to one option.

It was the same in ME1, only without Samantha and Steve. Balance-wise, the decision to include Samantha was wrong because femShep already had a gay option (and don't give me that "monogendered" nonsense - femShep/Liara is a gay romance for all intents and purposes). FemShep should've gotten a second straight option instead. Note that I like Samantha, so it's not personal preference speaking.

Include Kaidan too for ManShep, and you have 2 romances for gay Shep. Traynor added for FemShep is fine.

Would people consider Allers as a romance for femShep? 

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 20 mars 2013 - 08:58 .

[David7204]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Okay, that is just stupid. Making (what you might consider) an unlikeable character is not 'bad writing.' I never saw Jacob as particularly loyal, or at least more loyal than the other squadmates.

Context of character is the point I'm making and it IS bad writing.

Look at how it was done. Jacob was almost the FOCUS for a female Shepard in ME2, almost cramming him down our throats. Then he's suddenly dropped like a hot bowl of soup? No option on OUR part what WE may have wanted? 

More to point, the WAY he was dropped. Girlfriend gets jailed for 6 months? Better go hook up with another chick, get her pregnant and not tell now ex-girlfriend until she shows up to save your arses? Now, I don't know about you, but Jacob never struck me up as that kind of man in ME2.

Even regarding Miranda he admits that 'she deserves a better man than I'. His character seems to be more old school, no beating around the bush and certainly no scurrying behind people's backs.

He WASN'T wanted. Do you grasp that? No more hypotheticals. Nobody romanced Jacob. The players knew it. The developers knew it. I knew it. You knew it. And all of us knew it long before ME 3 was released. I don't want to hear "I'm offended because somebody, somewhere might be offended." Quit pretending that that doesn't matter. Because it does.

Modifié par David7204, 20 mars 2013 - 08:59 .

[Ageless Face]

Battlebloodmage wrote...
Would people consider Traynor as a romance for femShep? 

Last time I checked, ppl already consider Traynor as a romance option for FemShep.

[Battlebloodmage]

HagarIshay wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
Would people consider Traynor as a romance for femShep? 

Last time I checked, ppl already consider Traynor as a romance option for FemShep.

Sorry, I meant Allers. She's available for both Sheps.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 20 mars 2013 - 08:59 .

[Seboist]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Factor 1: Liara. Look at the LIs available for non-imported games:
femShep: Liara, Samantha and Kaidan
maleShep: Liara, Steve and Ashley
The unfortunate, but accidental result: straight femSheps who want a human LI are reduced to one option.

It was the same in ME1, only without Samantha and Steve. Balance-wise, the decision to include Samantha was wrong because femShep already had a gay option (and don't give me that "monogendered" nonsense - femShep/Liara is a gay romance for all intents and purposes). FemShep should've gotten a second straight option instead. Note that I like Samantha, so it's not personal preference speaking.

Include Kaidan too for ManShep, and you have 2 romances for gay Shep. Traynor added for FemShep is fine.

Would people consider Allers as a romance for femShep? 

People would rather consider Allers not even existing.

Modifié par Seboist, 20 mars 2013 - 09:00 .

[LilyasAvalon]

David7204 wrote...

He WASN'T wanted. Do you grasp that? No more hypotheticals. Nobody romanced Jacob. The players knew it. The developers knew it. I knew it. You knew it. And all of us knew it long before ME 3 was released. I don't want to hear "I'm offended because somebody, somewhere might be offended." Quit pretending that that doesn't matter. Because it does.

You might want to go argue with the Jacob thread about that. And quite a few people did, at the very least, have saves with a romanced Jacob.

Regardless, I wasn't even arguing if he was or wasn't wanted. I was saying he was better than what ended up happening. You can't deny what he did was INCREDIBLY cliched.

I was fine with them killing the Jacob romance altogether but like that? Furthermore, with a black character? He couldn't have just simply talked to Shepard like Miranda or Jack did? Told her it wasn't working out for him?

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

 Nobody romanced Jacob. 

Stop pulling bullcrap out of your ass David. I know for a fact that this statement isn't true. I know 3 people in real-life who played a femShep that romanced Jacob. So you're obviously making stuff up, as usual.

[David7204]

You must be so proud. Perhaps I should clarify. Nobody romanced Jacob canonically. Yes, I'm sure plenty of people romanced him for kicks just to see what would happen. Just to see the new content. But that's completely different from romancing him because you care about the character and are invested in the romance.

Modifié par David7204, 20 mars 2013 - 09:06 .

[LilyasAvalon]

On a side note, I'm surprised Vega wasn't actually an official romance.

I mean, there was all that teasing and flirting and then.... NOTHING.

JUST NOTHING.

It's like the biggest **** tease ever.

[Battlebloodmage]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

On a side note, I'm surprised Vega wasn't actually an official romance.

I mean, there was all that teasing and flirting and then.... NOTHING.

JUST NOTHING.

It's like the biggest **** tease ever.

I'm not sure why they didn't make him into an official romance. He seems to fit all the bills of a typical Bioware LI.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Perhaps I should clarify. Nobody romanced Jacob canonically. 

And again, you're talking nonsense.

Again, I'll mention 3 real-life friends, who romanced Jacob, yes, on their first and main playthrough. So yes, "canonically" as you put it.

Now please stop talking nonsense. You think you know a lot, but you really know nothing. Keep that in mind next time before you start typing. Thanks in advance.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 20 mars 2013 - 09:16 .

[wiccame]

I'm wondering how the 'get over it, its even' crowd would react if say Tali was a forced death and Miranda ran off with someone else.....shortening the straight male LI by 2, and Bioware letting the straight female LI's alone. Then say they tease you with 2 possible replacement romances and say hey you cant have them.

[David7204]

You're going to argue with me that a significant percentage of players canonically romanced Jacob?

[KiwiQuiche]

I admit, I do find it amusing how Jacob is the only LI in ME2 to say he loves Shepard- then he turns and cheats on her with some grease-armed Cerberus tart who knew he was with Shepard. I leave them to die now.

[David7204]

wiccame wrote...

I'm wondering how the 'get over it, its even' crowd would react if say Tali was a forced death and Miranda ran off with someone else.....shortening the straight male LI by 2, and Bioware letting the straight female LI's alone. Then say they tease you with 2 possible replacement romances and say hey you cant have them.

That's completely different. Neither Tali or Miranda were either extremely unpopular romances or explicitly stated to be dying.

Modifié par David7204, 20 mars 2013 - 09:24 .

[LilyasAvalon]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I admit, I do find it amusing how Jacob is the only LI in ME2 to say he loves Shepard- then he turns and cheats on her with some grease-armed Cerberus tart who knew he was with Shepard. I leave them to die now.

You can do that!? SHOW ME.

[kumquats]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I admit, I do find it amusing how Jacob is the only LI in ME2 to say he loves Shepard- then he turns and cheats on her with some grease-armed Cerberus tart who knew he was with Shepard. I leave them to die now.

And to add something: He is the only ME2 LI for femShep, who gets really pissed, when you break up with him.