596 réponses à ce sujet

[stluked]

I haven't read through this thread, but I just want to make a comment. I'm pansexual and I love Bioware's romance options. These games tackle openly the issues of sexuality. In Dragon Age 2, I play a male mage and romance Fenris (okay, the voice is really hot. Thank you, Gideon Emery). This is the only time I've been able to experience, however peripherally, what a male gay relationship might be like. Keep it up, Bioware.

[InfinitePaths]

krul2k wrote...

Bioware goes above and beyond what most companies do, yet still your not happy, yet still you dont cut them slack, if they fixed all these imaginary issues you have you would then moan an nitpick saying some childish thing like the hetro LI is better looking

Warden im seriously thinking your just moaning for the sake of moaning now, either enjoy the game an have a good few hours or dont m8 its that simple, if your sooo interested in fighting the good fight an feel your so entilted to do so dont do it on a gaming forum go out in the world an fight for it there where it counts

So just becouse other companies are bad Bioware has to act like them?

[Renmiri1]

 Warden that disconcerting  thing you are feeling, that sense that "this doesn't  feel right" is not the immersion breaking. Not yet anyway. What you feel strange and unfamiliar and out of place is the lack of the hetero privilege. You are so used to it that when it isn't there, or at least it isn't there as  heavily as it is all around us, you feel something is different. 

We all feel it:
- for some, it feels liberating and refreshing because by not being hetero all this massive normative effort / push to be hetero society throws at you gets heavy and chafing.
- For others, it feels a bit weird and then you realize that it is just that Thedas has more important stuff to obsess about (demons, darkspawn) than who is sleeping whith whom. Which is what I feel. I like it, as much as I like dragons or sword and sorcery, it is a break from "normal". I'm hetero but female so I do get my share of male priviledge shoved at me and when I see a place that has none, and also has no bias towards bi or gay people, I like it. Feels fair.
- For a 3rd group, I imagine the hetero male and females that like the current society here on earth shoving gender roles, it feels weird, like for the 2nd group but for this group it is not a good feeling. It is discomforting, like something is wrong. You are in this group. And THAT is when your immersion breaks because while you suspend your disbelief voluntarily to enjoy dragons and magic, suspending your disbelief to accept a more inclusive world was not part of what you expected.

And that is one of the points of having games like DA2 where social gender roles get more flexible. It is to show "group 3" that less rigid gender roles are not the end of the world.

When a politician spends his entire political life being against gay marriage, then learns his son is gay, his view of gender roles may shift. Because he loves his son and wants him to be happy. Good for him and good for his son, but what about all the gays oppressed by this politician during his career ? 

Wouldn't it be nice if said politician had a way of learning what it feels to live in a more open society ? If there was a way to show him that flexible gender roles are not the end of the world ?

I'm hoping the people from our generation, playing Bioware games will know this, without having to wait for their adult sons for coming out. 

Alas, just a silly dream...

TL;DR Get over it 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 20 mars 2013 - 06:14 .

[HolyAvenger]

Renmiri1 wrote...

- For a 3rd group, I imagine the hetero male and females that like the current society here on earth shoving gender roles, it feels weird, like for the 2nd group but for this group it is not a good feeling. It is discomforting, like something is wrong. You are in this group. And THAT is when your immersion breaks because while you suspend your disbelief voluntarily to enjoy dragons and magic, suspending your disbelief to accept a more inclusive world was not part of what you expected.

And that is one of the points of having games like DA2 where social gender roles get more flexible. It is to show "group 3" that less rigid gender roles are not the end of the world.

 
Delicious irony with regards to sweeping generalisations here.

:innocent:

[Lennard Testarossa]

Renmiri1 wrote...
It is to show "group 3" that less rigid gender roles are not the end of the world.

Clearly, these games accurately model human biology, psychology and sociology and thus provide a correct representation of the effects of different gender roles on society.

[Saibh]

David Gaider wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...
The thing is I was not saying stuff agains bisexuallity,I am against playersexuallity

They are not 'playersexual'. Perhaps read it again.

This is getting really confusing. You say that their sexuality is subjective (if not to the player, then what?), here and here.

I get why some folks might not like the "subjective sexuality" of some of the characters...

What I don't get is how some people go right to "everyone is bisexual". Which they're not.

You'll have to forgive me, I honestly don't see how to interpret this. "Subjective sexuality" and "playersexual" are interchangeable. Oh! Unless you define "playersexual" as despite being heterosexual or homosexual, they make the exception for the player character? Which is not, in my experience, what people are saying.

Modifié par Saibh, 20 mars 2013 - 06:33 .

[Knight of Dane]

BeatoSama wrote...

I seem to remember being able to flirt with Varric. Though I guess I remember wrong. I haven't played the game in some time.

Here you go.

[David Gaider]

Saibh wrote...
This is getting really confusing. You say that their sexuality is subjective (if not to the player, then what?), here and here.

I get why some folks might not like the "subjective sexuality" of some of the characters...

What I don't get is how some people go right to "everyone is bisexual". Which they're not.

You'll have to forgive me, I honestly don't see how to interpret this. "Subjective sexuality" and "playersexual" are interchangeable. Oh! Unless you define "playersexual" as despite being heterosexual or homosexual, they make the exception for the player character? Which is not, in my experience, what people are saying.

The issue is with their perception of the character's sexuality, hence the subjectiveness. The character's sexuality itself is not subjective.

I know some people believe their sexualities to be subjective-- hence the use of "playersexual"-- but that's why I referred to "subjective sexuality" in quotes or said "supposed subjective sexuality"... it's what they're saying, not I.

Modifié par David Gaider, 20 mars 2013 - 07:33 .

[InfinitePaths]

David Gaider wrote...

Saibh wrote...
This is getting really confusing. You say that their sexuality is subjective (if not to the player, then what?), here and here.

I get why some folks might not like the "subjective sexuality" of some of the characters...

What I don't get is how some people go right to "everyone is bisexual". Which they're not.

You'll have to forgive me, I honestly don't see how to interpret this. "Subjective sexuality" and "playersexual" are interchangeable. Oh! Unless you define "playersexual" as despite being heterosexual or homosexual, they make the exception for the player character? Which is not, in my experience, what people are saying.

You'll have to note that, in those quotes, I said "subjective sexuality" in quotations (or "supposed subjective sexuality"), meaning that's what other people are suggesting-- not myself. If one's definition of "playersexual" is that the companions are totally gay if the player is the same gender and totally straight if the player is the opposite gender, then that's incorrect. If you want to believe that, it's not necessarily contradicted anywhere other than outside that particular playthrough, but that's not how they're written. If one's definition of "playersexual" is that they can make an exception for the player despite their own preferences, then that's fine... though that is indeed not what people tend to use the word for.

The issue is with their perception of the character's sexuality, hence the subjectiveness. The character's sexuality itself is not subjective.

So you are saying Fenris and Merill are straight but still likes same sex Hawke?

[David Gaider]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...
So you are saying Fenris and Merill are straight but still likes same sex Hawke?

I said no such thing.

I have no interest in telling you whether Fenris or Merrill are "actually straight". I was referring to how the characters were written, and that their sexuality was the same despite which parts you were exposed to.

Then I edited that out because I thought it might be confusing. Which now it doubly is. So I think I'm going to exit this discussion, as I've said enough... this could probably go on and on for ages.

Modifié par David Gaider, 20 mars 2013 - 07:36 .

[LPPrince]

Yeah, David you just confused me even more.

I literally don't know what. I just...what.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

This thread is a perfect represenation of everything that's wrrong with Bioware games right now.

[Sejborg]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

This thread is a perfect represenation of everything that's wrrong with Bioware games right now.

Fans not understanding the devolopers or what do you mean?

[Enigmatick]

Sejborg wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

This thread is a perfect represenation of everything that's wrrong with Bioware games right now.

Fans not understanding the devolopers or what do you mean?

S/he probably means the sad fact that fans are far more concerned with character sexuality than gameplay.

Modifié par Enigmatick, 20 mars 2013 - 07:50 .

[Rawgrim]

Dirgegun wrote...

It never broke my immersion, personally. I mean... to really break your immersion you'd have to be metagaming through the entire thing in the first place, right? So you've already broken your immersion yourself. It isn't something the game, itself, has done.

I also thought some of the characters might be more demisexual or pansexual than bisexual, too. Fenris always seemed a bit demisexual to me, for exampe.

The romance icon in the dialogue wheel told me they were romantically available. Not really metagaming when there isa huge heartshaped spotlight telling me if I click it, that character will be into me. it broke immersion for me. If it didn`t break it for others, I am happy for them - of course.

[Lennard Testarossa]

discosuperfly wrote...
Why would anyone have a problem with being able to romance whomever works best for your character? It's like asking for less choice.

This argument has been proven to be nonsense countless times. I really don't get why anyone still uses it. "Choice" in a video game is about being able to choose what your character does, not about being able to change reality at whim.

"Why would anyone have a problem with being able to make Fenris like magic? It's like asking for less choice."

[LPPrince]

David Gaider wrote...

Saibh wrote...
This is getting really confusing. You say that their sexuality is subjective (if not to the player, then what?), here and here.

I get why some folks might not like the "subjective sexuality" of some of the characters...

What I don't get is how some people go right to "everyone is bisexual". Which they're not.

You'll have to forgive me, I honestly don't see how to interpret this. "Subjective sexuality" and "playersexual" are interchangeable. Oh! Unless you define "playersexual" as despite being heterosexual or homosexual, they make the exception for the player character? Which is not, in my experience, what people are saying.

You'll have to note that, in those quotes, I said "subjective sexuality" in quotations (or "supposed subjective sexuality"), meaning that's what other people are suggesting-- not myself. If one's definition of "playersexual" is that the companions are totally gay if the player is the same gender and totally straight if the player is the opposite gender, then that's incorrect. If you want to believe that, it's not necessarily contradicted anywhere other than outside that particular playthrough, but that's not how they're written. If one's definition of "playersexual" is that they can make an exception for the player despite their own preferences, then that's fine... though that is indeed not what people tend to use the word for.

The issue is with their perception of the character's sexuality, hence the subjectiveness. The character's sexuality itself is not subjective.

Let me try to see if I'm understanding this right-

Characters don't have a subjective sexuality in that they change from being purely heterosexual or purely homosexual based on the gender of the PC. So then their sexualities ARE set in stone. Since they're good with men and women, that makes them all bisexual. Buuut then wasn't it said before that they aren't all bisexu-

Yep I'm lost.

[Rawgrim]

LPPrince wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Saibh wrote...
This is getting really confusing. You say that their sexuality is subjective (if not to the player, then what?), here and here.

I get why some folks might not like the "subjective sexuality" of some of the characters...

What I don't get is how some people go right to "everyone is bisexual". Which they're not.

You'll have to forgive me, I honestly don't see how to interpret this. "Subjective sexuality" and "playersexual" are interchangeable. Oh! Unless you define "playersexual" as despite being heterosexual or homosexual, they make the exception for the player character? Which is not, in my experience, what people are saying.

You'll have to note that, in those quotes, I said "subjective sexuality" in quotations (or "supposed subjective sexuality"), meaning that's what other people are suggesting-- not myself. If one's definition of "playersexual" is that the companions are totally gay if the player is the same gender and totally straight if the player is the opposite gender, then that's incorrect. If you want to believe that, it's not necessarily contradicted anywhere other than outside that particular playthrough, but that's not how they're written. If one's definition of "playersexual" is that they can make an exception for the player despite their own preferences, then that's fine... though that is indeed not what people tend to use the word for.

The issue is with their perception of the character's sexuality, hence the subjectiveness. The character's sexuality itself is not subjective.

Let me try to see if I'm understanding this right-

Characters don't have a subjective sexuality in that they change from being purely heterosexual or purely homosexual based on the gender of the PC. So then their sexualities ARE set in stone. Since they're good with men and women, that makes them all bisexual. Buuut then wasn't it said before that they aren't all bisexu-

Yep I'm lost.

If their sexuality gets set when the player picks a gender for his character, the romance option is player-sexual. The player decides their sexuality when picking a gender for his character.

[Ryzaki]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

discosuperfly wrote...
Why would anyone have a problem with being able to romance whomever works best for your character? It's like asking for less choice.

This argument has been proven to be nonsense countless times. I really don't get why anyone still uses it. "Choice" in a video game is about being able to choose what your character does, not about being able to change reality at whim.

"Why would anyone have a problem with being able to make Fenris like magic? It's like asking for less choice."

Oh? So Fenris sexuality is a cornerstone of his character and a highly influential part of his background? 

How so?

[Sejborg]

Enigmatick wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

This thread is a perfect represenation of everything that's wrrong with Bioware games right now.

Fans not understanding the devolopers or what do you mean?

S/he probably means the sad fact that fans are far more concerned with character sexuality than gameplay.

Don't be fooled. People just assume the gameplay to be good, and therefore spend their time talking on all the "extra" stuff, like haircuts, romances, the color of the sky.

It's like people going through a surgery. They assume they will get cured for their illness, but if the doctor isn't polite and shakes their hand, and the food they get served isn't awesome they will be unhappy - even though the surgery was performed flawlessly. 

BSN assumes the gameplay will be good, but they are worried wether or not the doctor will shake their hand, pad their head, and what the color of the surgery room is. If you catch my drift? 

[Herr Uhl]

Rawgrim wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

It never broke my immersion, personally. I mean... to really break your immersion you'd have to be metagaming through the entire thing in the first place, right? So you've already broken your immersion yourself. It isn't something the game, itself, has done.

I also thought some of the characters might be more demisexual or pansexual than bisexual, too. Fenris always seemed a bit demisexual to me, for exampe.

The romance icon in the dialogue wheel told me they were romantically available. Not really metagaming when there isa huge heartshaped spotlight telling me if I click it, that character will be into me. it broke immersion for me. If it didn`t break it for others, I am happy for them - of course.

What about Aveline and Varric? They both have the heart spotlights IIRC.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Ryzaki wrote...
Oh? So Fenris sexuality is a cornerstone of his character and a highly influential part of his background?

How so?

And where exactly did you read this?

[Rawgrim]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

It never broke my immersion, personally. I mean... to really break your immersion you'd have to be metagaming through the entire thing in the first place, right? So you've already broken your immersion yourself. It isn't something the game, itself, has done.

I also thought some of the characters might be more demisexual or pansexual than bisexual, too. Fenris always seemed a bit demisexual to me, for exampe.

The romance icon in the dialogue wheel told me they were romantically available. Not really metagaming when there isa huge heartshaped spotlight telling me if I click it, that character will be into me. it broke immersion for me. If it didn`t break it for others, I am happy for them - of course.

What about Aveline and Varric? They both have the heart spotlights IIRC.

Mever noticed one for Varric. I did notice one for Aveline, but that one popped up after she was getting on with Donnic. I figured I could be an a-hole and break them up if I clicked it. I never did, though.