596 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

Blackrising wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Even though that sig contradicts David Gaider's statements, nice recover you handled that like an OG.
If you ever campaign for the senatorial seat of New York i'd vote for you.

I am...unsure what OG means. According to urban dictionary, I am either an 'original gangster' or a very strong asian weed.

It's the bolded as you handled that masterfully so accept the compliment as a token of my esteem.(no joking, deadly serious)

[Blackrising]

LPPrince wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

Granted, that might seem a bit contradictory....

Still that signature is less for 'all LIs should be bisexual!' and more to show my support for the LIs being available to all genders. I couldn't find a signature that fit better, OKAY? DON'T JUDGE ME.

Isn't that pretty much the same thing? I mean since there's only ever been two genders to choose from.

Anyway, glad we can all still smile about it. Thank God this hasn't turned into one of those screaming matches.

We're all cool here no matter what we believe or what our opinion on the matter is.

You know, I'm not even sure anymore. These kind of discussions tend to hijack my brain and confuse me to the point where not even I'm sure what exactly I think. It's madness.
Well, calling it 'bisexuality' would be slapping a label on it. 'Being available for all genders' is more of a label for the game mechanic itself and not the way characters act.

Just wait. It's not over until a dev locks the topic.

The Hierophant wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Even though that sig contradicts David Gaider's statements, nice recover you handled that like an OG.
If you ever campaign for the senatorial seat of New York i'd vote for you.

I am...unsure what OG means. According to urban dictionary, I am either an 'original gangster' or a very strong asian weed.

It's
the bolded as you handled that masterfully so accept the compliment as a
token of my esteem.(no joking, deadly serious)

Well then, I shall accept it graciously.
(Pity though. I've never been called an asian weed before. )

Modifié par Blackrising, 20 mars 2013 - 10:30 .

[LPPrince]

I don't know, the way I see it bisexual is just a shorter one word way of saying "I like both dudes and dudettes" which is totally cool.

Same with the other sexualities. I think my issue is with all the fantastical stuff that happens in...well, a fantasy game, I want to find some realism somewhere to escape the magic and the dragons, etc etc.

That realism coming from the romances. And when everyone's(by that I mean those that are romanceable) available to me no matter how my character feels, no matter how my character acts, no matter who or what my character is sexually and otherwise, it feels artificial and I can't use the in-game romances to escape the fantasy genre every once and a while.

[jillabender]

David Gaider wrote...

The issue is with their perception of the character's sexuality, hence the subjectiveness. The character's sexuality itself is not subjective.

I know some people believe their sexualities to be subjective-- hence the use of "playersexual"-- but that's why I referred to "subjective sexuality" in quotes or said "supposed subjective sexuality"... it's what they're saying, not I.

I admit that I've used the term "subjective sexualities" myself in the past, but I never meant to imply that the characters' sexualities are subjective in the sense of changing depending on the player's perception or the player character's gender. I can totally see, though, why it would bother you for people to use the term in that way.

All I personally meant by the term was that in the case of Merrill and Fenris, for example, I don't know how they would describe their sexual orientation, and if I were inclined to speculate about their sexual orientation beyond "this character happens to be in a relationship with a male/female Hawke in this playthrough," those speculations would be entirely subjective.

I agree, though, that instead of saying that Merrill and Fenris have "subjective sexualities," it would be more appropriate to simply say that we as the players don't know exactly how those characters would describe their own sexualities. Personally, I'm completely fine with not knowing.

As I've stated before, I don't think there's anything wrong with simply preferring for characters to have set sexual orientations.

It does bother me, though, when people express extreme upset about the fact that not every character is firmly established as being gay, straight, or bi once and for all, because that attitude often seems to come from a desire to control people by putting a label on their sexuality.

(And I was trying to take a break from the forums... d*** it! )

Modifié par jillabender, 20 mars 2013 - 11:34 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

And if you can't get over it, if the characters just aren't defining their sexuality in concrete terms enough for you to wrap your head around, so that suddenly reality loses all meaning... then too damned bad.

This is one of my favourite things that you've ever said.

[jillabender]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

And if you can't get over it, if the characters just aren't defining their sexuality in concrete terms enough for you to wrap your head around, so that suddenly reality loses all meaning... then too damned bad.

This is one of my favourite things that you've ever said.

Haha, that's just what I was about to say!

[LinksOcarina]

It was always player-sexual in that regard. If anything you should be thanking the writers for doing that, since it allows for more role-playing.

[Fiacre]

jillabender wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

And if you can't get over it, if the characters just aren't defining their sexuality in concrete terms enough for you to wrap your head around, so that suddenly reality loses all meaning... then too damned bad.

This is one of my favourite things that you've ever said.

Haha, that's just what I was about to say!

IIt is pretty awesome, isn't it?

[Harle Cerulean]

Rawgrim wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

 I don't think anyone has the "suddenly reality loses all meaning" problem. But anyway,

So they're available to everyone and none of them have a "label" of heterosexual, homosexual, or whatever else.

That's...puzzling. Cause without that its...well, confusing.

But I think I'm getting it now.

I think. I'm not even sure, I'm just thinking I think I'm getting it.

Says the first who loves Skyrim where all mosteveryone no matter the gender wants to get into Dragonborns pants.

Actually, if you look at the romance lists for Skyrim, its pretty much 50-50 based on the gender of the PC.

No matter you gender you can marry any of the peopel who can be married, this is no diffrent then in DA2 being able to romance any oft he four Lis regardless of gender.

Not true at all. Some can only be married by males, some can only be married by women. And some by both. Check your facts.

Unless they added male-only and female-only marriage candidates in DLC or a patch (which a quick stop by the UESP tells me they didn't), you're the one who needs to check their facts.  All marriages in Skyrim are gated by disposition, not PC sex.  PC race also doesn't present an obstacle.  You do the quest (or quests) to get their disposition up, you wear the amulet, and they want you.  What's between the legs idoesn't matter.

I don't know where you got the idea that it does, but it doesn't.

[Silfren]

Sopa de Gato wrote...
While I can't speak for everyone (or anyone, really) having sexuality just magically flip according to Hawke's gender so nobody can ever get locked out of anything comes out as either pandering, or being afraid that someone will get offended that Character X might prefer Gender X but not Gender Y and raise hell on the forums.

Is it pandering when games offer only heterosexual options to PCs?  If it is not pandering when that is the case, why on earth would it be considered pandering to make the romance options available to everyone regardless of what character they create?  Have you even thought that through?  If it's pandering to do one, it's no less pandering to do the other, so either you don't understand how this pandering thing works, or you're totally okay with pandering that positively affects you. 

Besides that, why is it always labeled as pandering, as if it's a bad thing, when the game devs are just trying to be inclusive in the most hassle-free way available to them?  Seriously, the point and purpose of making all romance characters available to al genders, is to, er, NOT disregard the fact that many players are not straight and would like to not feel like they're being ignored or rendered invisible.  What's so damned wrong with being inclusive?

[Harle Cerulean]

LPPrince wrote...

I don't know, the way I see it bisexual is just a shorter one word way of saying "I like both dudes and dudettes" which is totally cool.

Same with the other sexualities. I think my issue is with all the fantastical stuff that happens in...well, a fantasy game, I want to find some realism somewhere to escape the magic and the dragons, etc etc.

That realism coming from the romances. And when everyone's(by that I mean those that are romanceable) available to me no matter how my character feels, no matter how my character acts, no matter who or what my character is sexually and otherwise, it feels artificial and I can't use the in-game romances to escape the fantasy genre every once and a while.

The problem you're having is that you feel the need to label characters sexualities, and are uncomfortable if they don't have a label.  But labels aren't necessary, and applying a label to someone arbitrarily is actually pretty offensive.  If someone applies a label to themselves, you use that label.  If they don't apply a label to themselves, then you don't label them, even if you think they should have one.

Plenty of people would, if, idk, Anders, outright said he was bisexual, be like "Man, that doesn't fit, he's not a **** who screws everything on two legs.  He doesn't have a girlfriend AND a boyfriend at the same time.  He's either straight or gay!"  Offensive, right?  

Well, believe it or not, it's not much less offensive to say "This person can show interest in either males or females, THEY'RE BISEXUAL I DEMAND THEY BE CALLED IT."  You're still defining someone else's sexuality on your terms.  Yes, they're fictional characters and you're not going to offend them, but that doesn't really matter - the point is that it's not up to the observer to create a definition and apply it, it's up to the person or, in the case of fictional people, the person's creator.  

There's also the problem that you have very narrowly defined, binary labels.  You seem to be arguing that someone is straight, gay, or bi, and if they're not the first or the second, they're the third, and that is how it is and all people must conform to this.

But that is not how things work.

Gaider's statement that they're not bisexual doesn't mean they're either straight or gay, it means they fall somewhere on the sexuality scale where they can be attracted to at least some men and at least some women, but that doesn't mean they're limited to that (they could, for example, be capable of attraction to intersex individuals, or to individuals without a presented sex), and it doesn't necessarily mean it happens at the same time, or that they're interested in equal amounts to whatever gender presentations they find attractive, etc.

And as tired a trope as "If it's you, it's okay," is, it does actually happen.  Someone can go through their entire life thinking they're only attracted to blondes, and suddenly there's this brunette who's just like MROWR.  Ditto can happen with sex or gender attraction.  My sister would be the same person she is now if she fell in love with a woman, despite being straight and having no previous interest in women her entire life.  She might decide to relabel herself - or she might not, because this woman is an exception to a lifelong trend.

Your boxes are not one size fits all, and if someone says they're not in the box and that makes you uncomfortable, that's not a problem with them - that's a problem with your boxes and you.

[JWvonGoethe]

David Gaider wrote...

Alistair had no sexual history at all, and while he's primarily attracted to women it wouldn't have changed his character had he discovered an attraction for the male Warden. Similarly, Morrigan discovering her friendship with the female Warden had grown into something more wouldn't have changed her.

Though I can't claim to find the 'playersexual' subject particularly interesting, I take issue with the above quote.

Would an Alistair who has hitherto defined himself as heterosexual really, on finding out he was attracted to a male Warden, just react with indifference and immediate acceptance? Wouldn't he be confused, surprised, apprehensive, unsure etc?

Surely it would have some kind of impact on Alistair's sense of who he is and where he belongs in the world? Ignoring this just seems to undermine the kinds of issues that non-heterosexual people will have to deal with in real life.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 20 mars 2013 - 11:52 .

[Renmiri1]

Rawgrim wrote...

Hmm so if I make a male character, it will be him + a bunch of gay dudes and a bunch of straight women running about.

If i make a female character it will be her + a bunch of lesbians (formerly straight) and a bunch of straight men (formerly gay) running around and doing quests.

So...it is actually alot more difficult to find friends of your own gender, that happen to be straight then.

Wow, that sounds awful!  

How will you ever enjoy the game like this ? Pretty much no one has the same sexuality as you! No one understands your problem! And what is worse, when you try to talk about it people look at you like you are some sort of a sick individual and tell you to just "get over it".

Guess what ? If this bothers you too much, you can just pull  the DA2 disk out of the Xbox and avoid replying to the threads here at BSN.

But people born with a different sexual orientation can not. They can't just reboot the real world and make everyone around them have the same gender identity they have. .it is actually alot more difficult to find friends of your own gender (sounds familiar ?)  And in most places when they try to talk about what they see and feel, no one understands them and looks at them like they are very sick individuals. A lot of people tell them to just "get over it".

So you who have the entire world at your disposal to feel confortable with your gender want to resent the fact that people unlike you have a tiny corner where they don't feel as awful ?

Get a grip.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 20 mars 2013 - 11:59 .

[iheartbob]

I liked the way it was handled in DA:O better than DA:II, but the bisexuality of Merril and Fenris was not a big issue for me at all.  I only played female Hawke so I have no idea how it works with Fenris and male Hawke, but in the many playthroughs I did I still had to go out of my way if I wanted to romance Merril.  In other words ... I hardly noticed it.

The fact that Bioware puts forth the effort to be inclusive to the LGBT community with their romance options is a good thing and a step in the right direction for the video game industry.

Modifié par iheartbob, 21 mars 2013 - 12:11 .

[Rawgrim]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Hmm so if I make a male character, it will be him + a bunch of gay dudes and a bunch of straight women running about.

If i make a female character it will be her + a bunch of lesbians (formerly straight) and a bunch of straight men (formerly gay) running around and doing quests.

So...it is actually alot more difficult to find friends of your own gender, that happen to be straight then.

Wow, that sounds awful!  

How will you ever enjoy the game like this ? Pretty much no one has the same sexuality as you! No one understands your problem! And what is worse, when you try to talk about it people look at you like you are some sort of a sick individual and tell you to just "get over it".

Guess what ? If this bothers you too much, you can just pull  the DA2 disk out of the Xbox and avoid replying to the threads here at BSN.

But people born with a different sexual orientation can not. They can't just reboot the real world and make everyone around them have the same gender identity they have. .it is actually alot more difficult to find friends of your own gender (sounds familiar ?)  And in most places when they try to talk about what they see and feel, no one understands them and looks at them like they are very sick individuals. A lot of people tell them to just "get over it".

So you who have the entire world at your disposal to feel confortable with your gender want to resent the fact that people unlike you have a tiny corner where they don't feel as awful ?

Get a grip.

I wasn`t voicing a complaint of sorts. It was just a jokey observation Maybe you need to get a grip and not see everything as a personal attack.

[The Elder King]

Renmiri1 wrote...



So you who have the entire world at your disposal to feel confortable with your gender want to resent the fact that people unlike you have a tiny corner where they don't feel as awful ?

Get a grip.

Some heterosexuals people play certain games to have "a tiny corner where they don't feel awful" too. Because they could have other problems and issue in real life, and not necessarily small problem.
I'm not saying that DAO's approach (or ME'S approach, the whole IP isn't balanced in that regard) is the right one. I support DA2's approach over DAO's (though my preferred choice is 2 hetero/2 homosexuals and two bisexuals LI). But the reason Bioware is doing this necessairly isn't for offering somepeople a corner where they safe and don't feel awful They're doing this to offer equal choices to all their players.

Modifié par hhh89, 21 mars 2013 - 12:17 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Hmm so if I make a male character, it will be him + a bunch of gay dudes and a bunch of straight women running about.

If i make a female character it will be her + a bunch of lesbians (formerly straight) and a bunch of straight men (formerly gay) running around and doing quests.

So...it is actually alot more difficult to find friends of your own gender, that happen to be straight then.

Wow, that sounds awful!  

How will you ever enjoy the game like this ? Pretty much no one has the same sexuality as you! No one understands your problem! And what is worse, when you try to talk about it people look at you like you are some sort of a sick individual and tell you to just "get over it".

Guess what ? If this bothers you too much, you can just pull  the DA2 disk out of the Xbox and avoid replying to the threads here at BSN.

But people born with a different sexual orientation can not. They can't just reboot the real world and make everyone around them have the same gender identity they have. .it is actually alot more difficult to find friends of your own gender (sounds familiar ?)  And in most places when they try to talk about what they see and feel, no one understands them and looks at them like they are very sick individuals. A lot of people tell them to just "get over it".

So you who have the entire world at your disposal to feel confortable with your gender want to resent the fact that people unlike you have a tiny corner where they don't feel as awful ?

Get a grip.

Amen!

[Volus Warlord]

LPPrince wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

Granted, that might seem a bit contradictory....

Still that signature is less for 'all LIs should be bisexual!' and more to show my support for the LIs being available to all genders. I couldn't find a signature that fit better, OKAY? DON'T JUDGE ME.

Isn't that pretty much the same thing? I mean since there's only ever been two genders to choose from.

Anyway, glad we can all still smile about it. Thank God this hasn't turned into one of those screaming matches.

We're all cool here no matter what we believe or what our opinion on the matter is.

Now the Other Brigade will begin to scream at you.

[Rawgrim]

What I was trying to point out in that post wasn`t the fact that people were gay and whatsnot. Just for the record. It was meant as an ironic post about how much chosing a gender affects the love interests in the game.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Silfren wrote... Seriously, the point and purpose of making all romance characters available to al genders, is to, er, NOT disregard the fact that many players are not straight and would like to not feel like they're being ignored or rendered invisible.  What's so damned wrong with being inclusive?

I've got no problem with inclusivity, my problem is in the method of it's execution. Literally everything else has an effect on the game - gender, race, and class can include or exclude some quests/options. So why is romance immune to this? None of the romanceable characters have a preference of their own, because it magically bends to fit every possible choice. The only LI that doesn't isn't even included in the game, it's DLC.

Inclusion is fine, but this way of pulling it off is just wishy-washy.

[Sejborg]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Alistair had no sexual history at all, and while he's primarily attracted to women it wouldn't have changed his character had he discovered an attraction for the male Warden. Similarly, Morrigan discovering her friendship with the female Warden had grown into something more wouldn't have changed her.

Though I can't claim to find the 'playersexual' subject particularly interesting, I take issue with the above quote.

Would an Alistair who has hitherto defined himself as heterosexual really, on finding out he was attracted to a male Warden, just react with indifference and immediate acceptance? Wouldn't he be confused, surprised, apprehensive, unsure etc?

Surely it would have some kind of impact on Alistair's sense of who he is and where he belongs in the world? Ignoring this just seems to undermine the kinds of issues that non-heterosexual people will have to deal with in real life.

Well this is a fantasy after all and The Party... I mean Bioware is making the truth and rules in this specific fantasy.

Think of it this way. People can turn gay/bi all the sudden if meeting the right person - and even though they have just discovered consciously that they have these feeling, they would learn if they searched their feelings, that they have always felt this way and always will.

Now, imagine the same person never meets the right person to consciously discover these sexual attractions, then these feelings will never be explored. In fact those feelings don't even exist and never will. 

You just need to doublethink. 

[Ryzaki]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Silfren wrote... Seriously, the point and purpose of making all romance characters available to al genders, is to, er, NOT disregard the fact that many players are not straight and would like to not feel like they're being ignored or rendered invisible.  What's so damned wrong with being inclusive?

I've got no problem with inclusivity, my problem is in the method of it's execution. Literally everything else has an effect on the game - gender, race, and class can include or exclude some quests/options. So why is romance immune to this? None of the romanceable characters have a preference of their own, because it magically bends to fit every possible choice. The only LI that doesn't isn't even included in the game, it's DLC.

Inclusion is fine, but this way of pulling it off is just wishy-washy.

Everytime I hear this I can't help but think the people saying this did not do the romances they're speaking of.

No offense met but...yeah =/

[LPPrince]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

The problem you're having is that you feel the need to label characters sexualities, and are uncomfortable if they don't have a label.  

*snip*

Your boxes are not one size fits all, and if someone says they're not in the box and that makes you uncomfortable, that's not a problem with them - that's a problem with your boxes and you.

Missed the point.

My problem isn't that squadmates aren't calling themselves hetero, ******, etc etc.

Its that no matter what, the PC can have them all. Part of that is relative to sexuality yes, but part of it is not.

The PC can be an absolute scumbag who does everything possible to make life a living hell for mages, and yet still can have a lovey-dovey relationship with a mage squadmate because hey, you can have whoever you want no matter what.

That just feels odd. There has to be certain things about you that can turn off the people interested in you to the point where they won't enter/maintain a relationship with you. It doesn't make sense that a girl who's very loving family was eradicated entirely by an assassin ends up falling in love with the PC when he's an assassin. Especially if she goes around saying how much she hates assassins.

But thats what this system is like. There's no limits.

^That would be the part that isn't sexuality related

The PC can also romance whomever they desire without anyone going, "Sorry, hahaha. I'm just not into boys/girls."

That would be the sexuality related bit, which I'll touch on some more below.

Sam in ME3. (Note that I always play the same one Shepard I have, he's a dude)

First time through, I didn't try flirting with her. Sticking with Tali and all that, I was perfectly content with remaining Sam's friend. Plus, even if I wasn't with Tali, I got the hint that Sam liked girls through her dialogue with EDI.

Found out online that she turns down a Male Shep if you try to flirt with her. I couldn't believe it, so next time I did it.

Lo and behold, she turned down my Shepard and they began joking about it and went along having a merry ol friendship.

That was refreshing, I LOVED it. Not having my PC go up to just anyone and say "Hey I like you" and instantly being greeted with the same.

Sam never said she was lesbian. At least, I don't recall her ever saying it. She did say she likes girls, hinted that she doesn't like guys, and I didn't question it.

__________________


I think it boils down to this- I feel there should be limitations on who gets to romance who, as it makes it feel more immersive for me. I can't just grab a group of 8 friends and expect half of them to possibly fall in love with me no matter what kind of person I am or what sexual preferences we have.

There are other people who play these games that do want to romance whomever they desire with hopefully no limitations. Thats as cool as how I feel. Its just two different desires-

Limits or no limits. I'm for limits.

[LPPrince]

Filament wrote...

oh yea the whole "we can't be bros if he likes bros" thing.

Yikes. That would be lame.

If all my bros liked bros, that'd be cool with me. I'm sure they'd be cool with me even though I like the girlies.

Acceptance of others and all that is a beautiful thing.