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[Ryzaki]

...There are limits.

Hit on Aveline and Varric. Watch Hawke rejected.

How is that not limiting?

The LIs being into both genders of Hawke =/= everyone and everything being into Hawke and the player controlling sexualities.

Just means...the LIs are attracted to Hawke (and he/she can do things to kill this attraction like making deals with demons or not helping them out).

You really can't be that douchy to the character themselves in this game. (Maker knows I tried with Merrill). You can't romance them without helping them out...I'm just I fail to see the whole they're stripped of identity thing.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 mars 2013 - 12:29 .

[Rawgrim]

LPPrince wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

The problem you're having is that you feel the need to label characters sexualities, and are uncomfortable if they don't have a label.  

*snip*

Your boxes are not one size fits all, and if someone says they're not in the box and that makes you uncomfortable, that's not a problem with them - that's a problem with your boxes and you.

Missed the point.

My problem isn't that squadmates aren't calling themselves hetero, ******, etc etc.

Its that no matter what, the PC can have them all. Part of that is relative to sexuality yes, but part of it is not.

The PC can be an absolute scumbag who does everything possible to make life a living hell for mages, and yet still can have a lovey-dovey relationship with a mage squadmate because hey, you can have whoever you want no matter what.

That just feels odd. There has to be certain things about you that can turn off the people interested in you to the point where they won't enter/maintain a relationship with you. It doesn't make sense that a girl who's very loving family was eradicated entirely by an assassin ends up falling in love with the PC when he's an assassin. Especially if she goes around saying how much she hates assassins.

But thats what this system is like. There's no limits.

^That would be the part that isn't sexuality related

The PC can also romance whomever they desire without anyone going, "Sorry, hahaha. I'm just not into boys/girls."

That would be the sexuality related bit, which I'll touch on some more below.

Sam in ME3. (Note that I always play the same one Shepard I have, he's a dude)

First time through, I didn't try flirting with her. Sticking with Tali and all that, I was perfectly content with remaining Sam's friend. Plus, even if I wasn't with Tali, I got the hint that Sam liked girls through her dialogue with EDI.

Found out online that she turns down a Male Shep if you try to flirt with her. I couldn't believe it, so next time I did it.

Lo and behold, she turned down my Shepard and they began joking about it and went along having a merry ol friendship.

That was refreshing, I LOVED it. Not having my PC go up to just anyone and say "Hey I like you" and instantly being greeted with the same.

Sam never said she was lesbian. At least, I don't recall her ever saying it. She did say she likes girls, hinted that she doesn't like guys, and I didn't question it.

__________________


I think it boils down to this- I feel there should be limitations on who gets to romance who, as it makes it feel more immersive for me. I can't just grab a group of 8 friends and expect half of them to possibly fall in love with me no matter what kind of person I am or what sexual preferences we have.

There are other people who play these games that do want to romance whomever they desire with hopefully no limitations. Thats as cool as how I feel. Its just two different desires-

Limits or no limits. I'm for limits.

Exactly. Its kind of like getting to decide NPC`s sexualities while creating my own character. NPC\\ s are non-player-characters. I should not be able to influence them before the game starts. Through in-game conversations and actions, sure. But not when i am creating my own character.

[LPPrince]

Ryzaki wrote...

...There are limits.

Hit on Aveline and Varric. Watch Hawke rejected.

How is that not limiting?

Neither of them are romance options.

I'm referring to the options that are actually available to the player.

[sandalisthemaker]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Silfren wrote... Seriously, the point and purpose of making all romance characters available to al genders, is to, er, NOT disregard the fact that many players are not straight and would like to not feel like they're being ignored or rendered invisible.  What's so damned wrong with being inclusive?

I've got no problem with inclusivity, my problem is in the method of it's execution. Literally everything else has an effect on the game - gender, race, and class can include or exclude some quests/options. So why is romance immune to this? None of the romanceable characters have a preference of their own, because it magically bends to fit every possible choice. The only LI that doesn't isn't even included in the game, it's DLC.

Inclusion is fine, but this way of pulling it off is just wishy-washy.

How does gender race and class include or exclude content in DA2?  Considering you can't even be anything but human in DA2.

[Ryzaki]

LPPrince wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...There are limits.

Hit on Aveline and Varric. Watch Hawke rejected.

How is that not limiting?

Neither of them are romance options.

I'm referring to the options that are actually available to the player.

So basically you don't want just rejection. You want LIs for one PC to reject another PC...for reasons.

So my bloodmage Hawke being rejected by Anders isn't enough differences? A Hawke that ignored Fenris when he asked for help with Hadrianna and thus Fenris stalking off isn't enough differences? Or simply being unable to even *start* Fenris romance because he/she was with Anders/Merrill (and sometimes Isabela) first? that's not enough of a difference? 

So how did ME1 and ME2 work for you? Shep doesn't get rejected in ME1 (it's either he *can* romance or he...can't) and ME2 just had Samara (who doesn't count since she wasn't a romance). Or was the simple inavailability of the male LIs enough (even though Shep didn't get rejected. He couldn't even hit on them *to* get rejected).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 mars 2013 - 12:36 .

[Neon Rising Winter]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

How does gender race and class include or exclude content in DA2?  Considering you can't even be anything but human in DA2.

Well gender has some affect on dialogue, class if you take the mage/non mage division has fairly major effects, race did rather puzzle me too. But as far as an effect on the romance options that are actually being discussed... yeah, not a whole lot of difference.

Modifié par Narrow Margin, 21 mars 2013 - 12:34 .

[LPPrince]

Ryzaki wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...There are limits.

Hit on Aveline and Varric. Watch Hawke rejected.

How is that not limiting?

Neither of them are romance options.

I'm referring to the options that are actually available to the player.

So basically you don't want just rejection. You want LIs for one PC to reject another PC...for reasons.

So my bloodmage Hawke being rejected by Anders isn't enough differences? A Hawke that ignored Fenris when he asked for help with Hadrianna and thus Fenris stalking off isn't enough differences?

Those would make up some non-sexuality based limits. A little more of those+a couple Samantha Traynor Rejection moments.

[Ryzaki]

LPPrince wrote...
Those would make up some non-sexuality based limits. A little more of those+a couple Samantha Traynor Rejection moments.

Why does there have to be Samantha Traynor rejection moments with LI characters? They can't be with other members of the party? What is so terrible about 4 LIs being available to both genders of PCs? Unless said PC does something they find completely irrehensible.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 mars 2013 - 12:38 .

[Rawgrim]

Ryzaki wrote...

LPPrince wrote...
Those would make up some non-sexuality based limits. A little more of those+a couple Samantha Traynor Rejection moments.

Why does there have to be Samantha Traynor rejection moments with LI characters? They can't be with other members of the party? What is so terrible about 4 LIs being available to both genders of PCs? 

Its overly simplified. It also reeks of the reason why there is only 1 cave map in DA2. And it lets the player controll what sexualities the love interests are to have, when creating the PC. Affecting in game content without having even started playing yet.

[Ryzaki]

Rawgrim wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LPPrince wrote...
Those would make up some non-sexuality based limits. A little more of those+a couple Samantha Traynor Rejection moments.

Why does there have to be Samantha Traynor rejection moments with LI characters? They can't be with other members of the party? What is so terrible about 4 LIs being available to both genders of PCs? 

Its overly simplified. It also reeks of the reason why there is only 1 cave map in DA2. And it lets the player controll what sexualities the love interests are to have, when creating the PC. Affecting in game content without having even started playing yet.

No it is not controlling their sexuality. You don't turn Anders straight by rolling a female Hawke. You don't turn Fenris gay by rolling a male Hawke. You simply play a character they may find attractive and you pick your PCs gender.

I do not see how that is controlling their sexuality. And before you mention Karl I can quite easily see Anders hiding that if he doesn't see it as need to know information. Maybe he's simply uncomfortable telling it to FemHawke maybe he said it to try to tell Male Hawke something. Whatever gender Hawke you roll doesn't stop him from telling that story about him sleeping with Isabela.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 mars 2013 - 12:45 .

[LPPrince]

Ryzaki wrote...

So how did ME1 and ME2 work for you? Shep doesn't get rejected in ME1 (it's either he *can* romance or he...can't) and ME2 just had Samara (who doesn't count since she wasn't a romance).

ME1- Well, back then(same Shepard, hah) I only pined for Ashley, who happily was returning it. I imagine had I gone for Kaiden I wouldn't of been too surprised, since perspective is key. Being a straight guy, its not hard to imagine a guy turning down or completely ignoring(in the case of a MaleShep wanting Kaiden) the passes of another guy(I don't even think MaleShep can make a pass at Kaiden, or maybe he can, I'd have to look it up). If I wasn't straight, then my perspective would change entirely. Its important to consider more than one perspective.

ME2-  Samara did count as a romance option, at least to me. She was one that you could develop feelings for, and she'd return the feelings as well, but she wouldn't want to invest in it because hey, Justicar Code. It was very interesting and refreshing. It might not feel like a true romance though since you could engage in it and still be with someone else(Naughty Sheps, man).

ME3- Don't know too much about how Steve turns down FemSheps, or if thats even possible, but Sam turning down Male Shep was super cool. I think that was one of the best things that came out of ME3.

Modifié par LPPrince, 21 mars 2013 - 12:45 .

[Renmiri1]

Anyone who mentions ME3 as a standard for good and fair romance loses credibility immediately with me.

This is a game that kills one LI, makes another LI cheat on the player and gives 60% of screen time to another LI. Now I ask you, which gender are the first 2 LIs ? Which gender is the 3rd ?

Of course hetero male Shepard's liked it. It was done for them. But most people can see how unfair and biased it was, to anyone not hetero male. People who can't see it ? Have no business telling others what fairness is all about.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 21 mars 2013 - 12:48 .

[Rawgrim]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LPPrince wrote...
Those would make up some non-sexuality based limits. A little more of those+a couple Samantha Traynor Rejection moments.

Why does there have to be Samantha Traynor rejection moments with LI characters? They can't be with other members of the party? What is so terrible about 4 LIs being available to both genders of PCs? 

Its overly simplified. It also reeks of the reason why there is only 1 cave map in DA2. And it lets the player controll what sexualities the love interests are to have, when creating the PC. Affecting in game content without having even started playing yet.

No it is not controlling their sexuality. You don't turn Anders straight by rolling a female Hawke. You don't turn Fenris gay by rolling a male Hawke.

Yes you do. and vice versa. The devs have said they arn`t bisexual. Therefore, if you make a male Hawke, Anders is gay. make a female one and he is straight. Thats the player`s choice of PC gender controlling an NPC`s sexual leanings.

[LPPrince]

One thing that sucked about ME3 romance though was that yeah, FemSheps got the horribly short end of the stick as far as straight romances go.

Dead Kaiden and Unromanced ME2 Garrus=No hetero romances for a girl.

...Really, Bioware? indeed.

But hey, ME team and DA team are different.

I think there's a happy medium to be found there somewhere

[Rawgrim]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Anyone who mentions ME3 as a standard for good and fair romance loses credibility immediately with me.

This is a game that kills on LI, makes another LI cheat on the player and gives 60% of screen time to another LI. Now I ask you, which gender are the first 2 LIs ? Which gender is the 3rd.

Of course hetero male Shepard's liked it. It was done for them. But most people can see how unfair and biased it was, to anyone not hetero male. People who can't see it ? Have no business telling others what fairness is all about.

Not fair, i agree. But at least we couldn`t pick their sexuality during character creation.

As for Thane, he was allready dying in ME2. Its not like the people who romanced him didn`t get a fair warning.

On a side not, i didn`t know there were that many love interests in the ME series. I just stuck with Liara through the whole thing.

[LPPrince]

Rawgrim wrote...

Yes you do. and vice versa. The devs have said they arn`t bisexual. Therefore, if you make a male Hawke, Anders is gay. make a female one and he is straight. Thats the player`s choice of PC gender controlling an NPC`s sexual leanings.

You know how people earlier were bringing up how in real life and possibly in fantasy, sexualities aren't always rigid?

You're making them rigid. Just saying. I'm not sure you're seeing things from their perspective so I thought I'd mention it.

[Ryzaki]

LPPrince wrote...
ME1- Well, back then(same Shepard, hah) I only pined for Ashley, who happily was returning it. I imagine had I gone for Kaiden I wouldn't of been too surprised, since perspective is key. Being a straight guy, its not hard to imagine a guy turning down or completely ignoring(in the case of a MaleShep wanting Kaiden) the passes of another guy(I don't even think MaleShep can make a pass at Kaiden, or maybe he can, I'd have to look it up). If I wasn't straight, then my perspective would change entirely. Its important to consider more than one perspective.

ME2-  Samara did count as a romance option, at least to me. She was one that you could develop feelings for, and she'd return the feelings as well, but she wouldn't want to invest in it because hey, Justicar Code. It was very interesting and refreshing. It might not feel like a true romance though since you could engage in it and still be with someone else(Naughty Sheps, man).

ME3- Don't know too much about how Steve turns down FemSheps, or if thats even possible, but Sam turning down Male Shep was super cool. I think that was one of the best things that came out of ME3.

Yes it is important to consider more than one perspective. Never said it wasn't. That goes both ways. Man Shep can not make a pass at Kaidan. (It probably would've been recieved favorably if he could. Alas nope).

ME2 Samara..counted as a romance option to you? Oh good then in Citadel she does admit to returning feelings and it gets a bit romancy (you have to have "stayed loyal" to her though). So...?

ME3 - Not sure about it either I don't play femshep. As for Sam's rejection it was fine. Too bad just about everyone ELSE Shep hits on falls heads over heels for him. Thus it looks more than a little shallow. So...Shep strikes out...what 1 time out of 9? Let's see...Liara, Ashley, Miranda, Tali, Kelly, Jack, Samara (minor setback), Allers, Consort.  Yeah those aren't bad odds. Not at all.

Meanwhile Hawke? He strikes out 2 times out of 6. Three times if you include elf chick in alienage.

But clearly Hawkes the one controlling sexuality.

[Sejborg]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Anyone who mentions ME3 as a standard for good and fair romance loses credibility immediately with me.

This is a game that kills one LI, makes another LI cheat on the player and gives 60% of screen time to another LI. Now I ask you, which gender are the first 2 LIs ? Which gender is the 3rd ?

Of course hetero male Shepard's liked it. It was done for them. But most people can see how unfair and biased it was, to anyone not hetero male. People who can't see it ? Have no business telling others what fairness is all about.

Jack should have been bi. Jack even tells that she have been with both genders, but Femshep isn't allowed to get in on the action. That was lame since it fitted her character. 

[The Elder King]

Ryzaki wrote...



Why does there have to be Samantha Traynor rejection moments with LI characters? They can't be with other members of the party? What is so terrible about 4 LIs being available to both genders of PCs? Unless said PC does something they find completely irrehensible.

I don't find nothing wrong with 4 LI being available to both genders, but I prefer the 2 hetero, 2 homosexuals and 2 bisexuals/available to both genders ratio (which is almost surely not what we'll get in DA3, so I'm fine with the former method). Set sexualities is the best approach, in my opinion, if all people have equal choices.
For me, if set sexualities offers equal opportunities to all sexual orientantions, I prefer this over the DA2's approach. If set sexualities doesn't offer equal opportunities (like it's present in all the ME IP, with the last game heavily unbalanced toward an hetero maleshep), I prefer DA2's approach.
Is the method presented terrible?

[Ryzaki]

Rawgrim wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LPPrince wrote...
Those would make up some non-sexuality based limits. A little more of those+a couple Samantha Traynor Rejection moments.

Why does there have to be Samantha Traynor rejection moments with LI characters? They can't be with other members of the party? What is so terrible about 4 LIs being available to both genders of PCs? 

Its overly simplified. It also reeks of the reason why there is only 1 cave map in DA2. And it lets the player controll what sexualities the love interests are to have, when creating the PC. Affecting in game content without having even started playing yet.

No it is not controlling their sexuality. You don't turn Anders straight by rolling a female Hawke. You don't turn Fenris gay by rolling a male Hawke.

Yes you do. and vice versa. The devs have said they arn`t bisexual. Therefore, if you make a male Hawke, Anders is gay. make a female one and he is straight. Thats the player`s choice of PC gender controlling an NPC`s sexual leanings.

Did Gaider not just say Hawke does not change their sexualities? Because I'm pretty sure that's what was said. So...no.

In my male Hawke anders romance I quite distinctly recall him and Isabela talking about having sex with one another...and Fenris was flirting a bit with Isabela (and even slept with her during my Andersmance).

So...what? 

[Saibh]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Anyone who mentions ME3 as a standard for good and fair romance loses credibility immediately with me.

This is a game that kills one LI, makes another LI cheat on the player and gives 60% of screen time to another LI. Now I ask you, which gender are the first 2 LIs ? Which gender is the 3rd ?

Of course hetero male Shepard's liked it. It was done for them. But most people can see how unfair and biased it was, to anyone not hetero male. People who can't see it ? Have no business telling others what fairness is all about.

cut

I don't know if Kelly should be counted if Thane isn't. I agree that it's clear Thane and Jacob get scrapped. But...yeah...it didn't occur to me that this ended up happening. Huh.

[Rawgrim]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LPPrince wrote...
Those would make up some non-sexuality based limits. A little more of those+a couple Samantha Traynor Rejection moments.

Why does there have to be Samantha Traynor rejection moments with LI characters? They can't be with other members of the party? What is so terrible about 4 LIs being available to both genders of PCs? 

Its overly simplified. It also reeks of the reason why there is only 1 cave map in DA2. And it lets the player controll what sexualities the love interests are to have, when creating the PC. Affecting in game content without having even started playing yet.

No it is not controlling their sexuality. You don't turn Anders straight by rolling a female Hawke. You don't turn Fenris gay by rolling a male Hawke.

Yes you do. and vice versa. The devs have said they arn`t bisexual. Therefore, if you make a male Hawke, Anders is gay. make a female one and he is straight. Thats the player`s choice of PC gender controlling an NPC`s sexual leanings.

Did Gaider not just say Hawke does not change their sexualities? Because I'm pretty sure that's what was said. So...no.

In my male Hawke anders romance I quite distinctly recall him and Isabela talking about having sex with one another...and Fenris was flirting a bit with Isabela (and even slept with her during my Andersmance).

So...what? 

He also said they arn`t bisexual. So if they have sex with both genders, and arn`t bisexuals....what are they?

[LPPrince]

Lets remember that romance doesn't equate to sexy time underneath sheets.

[Fiacre]

Rawgrim wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LPPrince wrote...
Those would make up some non-sexuality based limits. A little more of those+a couple Samantha Traynor Rejection moments.

Why does there have to be Samantha Traynor rejection moments with LI characters? They can't be with other members of the party? What is so terrible about 4 LIs being available to both genders of PCs? 

Its overly simplified. It also reeks of the reason why there is only 1 cave map in DA2. And it lets the player controll what sexualities the love interests are to have, when creating the PC. Affecting in game content without having even started playing yet.

No it is not controlling their sexuality. You don't turn Anders straight by rolling a female Hawke. You don't turn Fenris gay by rolling a male Hawke.

Yes you do. and vice versa. The devs have said they arn`t bisexual. Therefore, if you make a male Hawke, Anders is gay. make a female one and he is straight. Thats the player`s choice of PC gender controlling an NPC`s sexual leanings.

And Gaider has said, in this very thread, that that's not really the case. And that's ignoring how offensive it is to insist stuffing people into these three categories. As has been discussed. In this very thread.

Fenris, for example, could be pan. Or he could be a pan/biromantic demisexual. Or he could prefer women, but still be attarcted to a male Hawke as an exception -- it's been known to happen. Sexuality can be fluid. And there's a lot more to it than straight/gay/bi.

[Ryzaki]

Rawgrim wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LPPrince wrote...
Those would make up some non-sexuality based limits. A little more of those+a couple Samantha Traynor Rejection moments.

Why does there have to be Samantha Traynor rejection moments with LI characters? They can't be with other members of the party? What is so terrible about 4 LIs being available to both genders of PCs? 

Its overly simplified. It also reeks of the reason why there is only 1 cave map in DA2. And it lets the player controll what sexualities the love interests are to have, when creating the PC. Affecting in game content without having even started playing yet.

No it is not controlling their sexuality. You don't turn Anders straight by rolling a female Hawke. You don't turn Fenris gay by rolling a male Hawke.

Yes you do. and vice versa. The devs have said they arn`t bisexual. Therefore, if you make a male Hawke, Anders is gay. make a female one and he is straight. Thats the player`s choice of PC gender controlling an NPC`s sexual leanings.

Did Gaider not just say Hawke does not change their sexualities? Because I'm pretty sure that's what was said. So...no.

In my male Hawke anders romance I quite distinctly recall him and Isabela talking about having sex with one another...and Fenris was flirting a bit with Isabela (and even slept with her during my Andersmance).

So...what? 

He also said they arn`t bisexual. So if they have sex with both genders, and arn`t bisexuals....what are they?

...you know they could be something else? Someone more learned in the subject could say it better than I could I won't deny that.

Don't have to be strictly straight/gay/bisexual.