596 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

Fiacre wrote...

jillabender wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

jillabender wrote...

It's not offensive to refer to someone as gay straight, or bi, if they identify themselves as such.

But it can be insulting to insist that those are the only three options, because there are people who don't feel that they fit into any of those three categories - for example, people who are bigendered (they don't feel that they fit into either "male" or "female" as a category).

True. But so far there hasn`t been a bi-gendered romance option in DA, so we can`t really take that into account (yet).

I think the issue is more that we don't really know how some of the characters, like Merrill and Fenris, would describe their sexuality. Maybe they would consider themselves bi, or maybe they would consider themselves pansexual. Maybe they would consider themselves straight with some gay tendencies, or the other way around. Or maybe they don't feel any need to label their sexual preferences beyond simply expressing attraction for the people they heppen to be attracted to.

You're pretty much saying everything I want to say. Except better. So yeah, this.

It is a very good argument. I agree. I am just arguing, from my point of view, that is is abit immersion breaking. And very simplified.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Rawgrim wrote...


It leaves the impression that all 4 of the love interests will just "drop their pants and get it on" just because its Hawke. The choice of gender has no bearing at all. All that matters is the name Hawke.

I didn`t meant Hawke was god moding. I meant the mechanics felt like god-moding a certain aspect of the game.

Oh that just makes Hawke the hero. They overcome the odds, defeat the bad guys and ride off into the sunset with the man or woman of their dreams.

To be a mary-sue they'd have to bed all four of them. At the same time.

[Genshie]

LPPrince wrote...

Narrow Margin wrote...

I think words are the problem, what we need to illustrate this is a diagram, or maybe some kind of interpretive dance. Actually maybe those two bottles of cheap wine would help.

*sounds heard in the background*

Squadmate-"THE SONG OF MY PEOPLE."

*hurriedly shuffles away*

PC-"What the hell"

*insert interpretive dance*

Squadmate-"I LOVE GIRLS, GIRLS ARE GREAT. I LOVE GIRLS, THEY'RE MY MATES!"

*PC stares with O_o expression, possibly joins in on dance and song based on player's decision*

*I know this post was made several pages ago but it just made me lol* I would just join in the dance for fun even if I was(n't) interested in girls.

[Rawgrim]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
he also said they arn`t bisexual. So if they have sex with both genders, and arn`t bisexuals....what are they?

What the frack does it matter ?

Your LI loves you, no matter what flavor of Hawke you pick.  does it really matter what the LI is on an entirely different playthrough, or in the past or in the future ?

I believe if you dug deep on your own personal life, you might be surprised to discover some ex of yours  "switched sides" either before or after you knew them. I don't mean to be offensive, it is just statistics. Does that invalidate the time you spent with that person ?

Does it invalidate it more than finding out some ex cheated on you, was arrested, used drugs, committed bank fraud, married Prince Andrew, opened a fast food chain ? On the past ? A few years after you last talked to them ?

People's lives are not static. We can only live for the moment and that is already hard enough.

Sorry. Didn`t see you post. Didn`t ignore it on purpose. And don`t worry, I don`t take it as offensive.


To be honest, if my EXes did anything you listed up, I would not be surprised

[Ryzaki]

Narrow Margin wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


It leaves the impression that all 4 of the love interests will just "drop their pants and get it on" just because its Hawke. The choice of gender has no bearing at all. All that matters is the name Hawke.

I didn`t meant Hawke was god moding. I meant the mechanics felt like god-moding a certain aspect of the game.

Oh that just makes Hawke the hero. They overcome the odds, defeat the bad guys and ride off into the sunset with the man or woman of their dreams.

To be a mary-sue they'd have to bed all four of them. At the same time.

If only. Trying to bed all of them in one playthrough takes some severe balancing acts. Much easier in DAO.

[Rawgrim]

Narrow Margin wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


It leaves the impression that all 4 of the love interests will just "drop their pants and get it on" just because its Hawke. The choice of gender has no bearing at all. All that matters is the name Hawke.

I didn`t meant Hawke was god moding. I meant the mechanics felt like god-moding a certain aspect of the game.

Oh that just makes Hawke the hero. They overcome the odds, defeat the bad guys and ride off into the sunset with the man or woman of their dreams.

To be a mary-sue they'd have to bed all four of them. At the same time.

Thats the point. There are no odds to overcome. You create whatever character. Pick a love interest. and thats it.

[Ryzaki]

And...how is that different from DAO and ME2? only difference is you reloaded once you saw their gender was opposite yours.

That's not an odd to overcome.

[jillabender]

Rawgrim wrote...

It leaves the impression that all 4 of the love interests will just "drop their pants and get it on" just because its Hawke. The choice of gender has no bearing at all. All that matters is the name Hawke.

I didn`t meant Hawke was god moding. I meant the mechanics felt like god-moding a certain aspect of the game.

In my mind, not all of the potential romances exist in the same universe - the Hawke who romanced Merill exists in a different universe from the Hawke who dumped Anders for Isabella (just as an example), so it doesn't feel to me as though everyone is trying to get into Hawke's pants.

Modifié par jillabender, 21 mars 2013 - 01:46 .

[Rawgrim]

Ryzaki wrote...

And...how is that different from DAO and ME2? only difference is you reloaded once you saw their gender was opposite yours.

That's not an odd to overcome.

Mot sure what you mean. You reloaded and made a different gendered character?

[Rawgrim]

jillabender wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It leaves the impression that all 4 of the love interests will just "drop their pants and get it on" just because its Hawke. The choice of gender has no bearing at all. All that matters is the name Hawke.

I didn`t meant Hawke was god moding. I meant the mechanics felt like god-moding a certain aspect of the game.

In my mind, not all of the potential romances exist in the same universe - the Hawke who romanced Merill exists in a different universe from the Hawke who dumped Anders for Isabella (just as an example), so it doesn't feel to me as though everyone is trying to get into Hawke's pants.

Well thats how you play. Its all good. I play differently, and have a different opinion. It doesn`t invalidate yours one bit.

[Renmiri1]

Rawgrim wrote...

It leaves the impression that all 4 of the love interests will just "drop their pants and get it on" just because its Hawke. The choice of gender has no bearing at all. All that matters is the name Hawke.

I didn`t meant Hawke was god moding. I meant the mechanics felt like god-moding a certain aspect of the game.

Yes and the Arishock will ALWAYS lose the fight with Hawke. So will Meredith. And Hawke will ALWAYS be able to raise or borrow the money to go to the Deep Roads. And a tired bedragled Hawke will always beat a group of mercenaries who had been idling at Kirkwal for days, impressing a guard enough that he goes call Uncle Gamlem. And Hawke will always impress one of the Kirkwall crime leaders enought that they pay to bring her / him into the city.

You getting a pattern here ?

Why Hawke being good at everything and succeeding where others fail only bithers you when it's gender related ?

Please just look deep inside yourself and try to see why this issue bothers you so much more than the rest. Because it clearly is something that causes you a lot of angst. And there is no need for that at all.

I am glad you won't be able to change Gaider's mind on this but there are just about a million of other games where you don't have to face this issue. So forgive me if I don't weep for you. You have alternatives, a lot more than a lot of people.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 21 mars 2013 - 01:48 .

[Hazegurl]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...Thank you! Cause that above needs to be said more often.

What confuses me the most is why so many people have an issue with how all the characters define themselves sexually. I love that they are all available to me if I choose to romance them. If I choose not to romance them then I don't see why their sexuality even matters. The only thing I care about is that Fenris is available for my gay Hawke. That's all I need. lol!!

While I can't speak for everyone (or anyone, really) having sexuality just magically flip according to Hawke's gender so nobody can ever get locked out of anything comes out as either pandering, or being afraid that someone will get offended that Character X might prefer Gender X but not Gender Y and raise hell on the forums.

But I don't see how its flipping. FemHawke doesn't exist in the same world as MaleHawke. I like to think of it as a parallel world. In one a male Hawke exists, in the other a female Hawke. The companions are just the same no matter what you choose. If you play a Male Hawke and romance Fenris then you as the player can define him however you see fit, if you wish. But no matter how many times you play and whatever gender you choose the companions are always a constant.

[Ryzaki]

Rawgrim wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And...how is that different from DAO and ME2? only difference is you reloaded once you saw their gender was opposite yours.

That's not an odd to overcome.

Mot sure what you mean. You reloaded and made a different gendered character?

Yeah and then I promtly in ME2 anyway had three different women (four if you count Kelly) trying to claw my Sheps pants off. (seriously ran into Tali's, Jack's and Miranda's romance convos back to back. *THAT* was fun....not.)

Yay? I don't get its somehow less immersion breaking and unfair to the characters when it plays like a straight male fantasy of every attractive women on board his ship wanting to be with him. But when that extends to the males...suddenly it goes too far? (and vice versa for the FemShep).

Then again I kind of never saw the romances as this bastion off zomg immersion and realism that others apparently saw them as so I'm sitting here very. Very. VERY confused. It was always fanservice to me now the fanservice has just extended to more groups. I see it as a good thing not a bad one.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 mars 2013 - 01:49 .

[Plaintiff]

DarkSpiral wrote...
Is that the best you can come up with?  Compare how I react to a video game to how I react to my real lifef riends?  They are nothing remotely the same.

Immersion.  In real life.  That's ridiculous.  Try again.

The only reason for the sexuality of the characters in Dragon Age to disrupt your immersion is if it somehow interferes with your perception of reality.

Even then, that reaction is still illogical because Thedas is not reality and not bound by the same "rules" as reality.

But you insist on imposing your perception of reality onto the fantasy world of Thedas. So yes, I think how you react to similarly non-defined sexualities in real life is extremely relevant.

[LPPrince]

Genshie wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Narrow Margin wrote...

I think words are the problem, what we need to illustrate this is a diagram, or maybe some kind of interpretive dance. Actually maybe those two bottles of cheap wine would help.

*sounds heard in the background*

Squadmate-"THE SONG OF MY PEOPLE."

*hurriedly shuffles away*

PC-"What the hell"

*insert interpretive dance*

Squadmate-"I LOVE GIRLS, GIRLS ARE GREAT. I LOVE GIRLS, THEY'RE MY MATES!"

*PC stares with O_o expression, possibly joins in on dance and song based on player's decision*

*I know this post was made several pages ago but it just made me lol* I would just join in the dance for fun even if I was(n't) interested in girls.

*bows*

[Rawgrim]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It leaves the impression that all 4 of the love interests will just "drop their pants and get it on" just because its Hawke. The choice of gender has no bearing at all. All that matters is the name Hawke.

I didn`t meant Hawke was god moding. I meant the mechanics felt like god-moding a certain aspect of the game.

Yes and the Arishock will ALWAYS lose the fight with Hawke. So will Meredith. And Hawke will ALWAYS be able to raise or borrow the money to go to the Deep Roads. And a tired bedragled Hawke will always beat a group of mercenaries who had been idling at Kirkwal for days, impressing a guard enough that he goes call Uncle Gamlem. And Hawke will always impress one of the Kirkwall crime leaders enought that they pay to bring her / him into the city.

You getting a pattern here ?

Why Hawke being good at everything and succeeding where others fail only bithers you when it's gender related ?

Pleas just look deep inside yourself and try to see why this issue bothers you so much more than the rest. Because it clearly is something that causes you a lot of angst. And there is no need for that at all.

I am glad you won't be able to change Gaider's mind on this but there are just about a million of other games where you don't have to face this issue. So forgive me if I don't weep for you. You have alternatives, a lot more than a lot of people.

You don`t allways defeat the arishok. You have to use tactics and avoid being killed.


I think you are going abit too far on the assumption bit here, and its starting to become more than a little insulting.. The fact that there are gay people and such in the game, and that they are romancable is not a problem for me. I am arguing the mechanics of it, thats all. I wouldn`t complain if there were 8 gay romances and just 1 straight one either. Its just the fact that everyone being available from the get-go, to either gender, thats the problem.

[Fiacre]

Would it be any different if the LI's explicitly defined themselves as one of the labels that fit poeple attracted to two or more genders? Because I don't see how the lack of a label changes things. They're interested. They're very possibly interested into more people of Hawke's sex than just Hawke. The "Hawke could be an exception" is just one possibility out of many -- as again, they could be pan, they could be demisexual, they could simply identify as fluid or what-have-you -- they're simply capable of feeling attracted to more than just one gender.

And if (at least) four out of eight people being attracted to more than gender is such a problem, I point out one of my earlier posts, about my sample group of five, in which at least three (possibly four) were attracted to more than one gender.

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yay? I don't get its somehow less immersion breaking and unfair to the characters when it plays like a straight male fantasy of every attractive women on board his ship wanting to be with him. But when that extends to the males...suddenly it goes too far? (and vice versa for the FemShep).

For the record, I found that to be a rather offputting aspect of ME2, so...yeah...

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...
Is that the best you can come up with?  Compare how I react to a video game to how I react to my real lifef riends?  They are nothing remotely the same.

Immersion.  In real life.  That's ridiculous.  Try again.

The only reason for the sexuality of the characters in Dragon Age to disrupt your immersion is if it somehow interferes with your perception of reality.

Even then, that reaction is still illogical because Thedas is not reality and not bound by the same "rules" as reality.

But you insist on imposing your perception of reality onto the fantasy world of Thedas. So yes, I think how you react to similarly non-defined sexualities in real life is extremely relevant.

Thedas is the same as our worl (in medieval times) unless stated otherwise. This is true about every fantasy setting. If there are dragons about, that is an explained difference between our world and thedas. If magic excists in a setting, its real and so on. Its why the codex and lore is important in every fictional setting.

[LPPrince]

Man we need info on DA3

Modifié par LPPrince, 21 mars 2013 - 02:05 .

[Silfren]

Saibh wrote...

Silfren wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Lemme try to rapidly bring this back on topic-

What are the chances Bioware's been given the necessary funds to give the "optimal" solution of an equal amount of hetero, ******, and bisexual options instead of making every option playersexual?

I don't understand why you think this is the optimal solution.  In Origins, many people wanted to romance Morrigan as a female Warden, or Alistair as a male Warden.  Providing more options for hetero-, bi-, and homosexual romance pairings doesn't solve this, if Character A is only open to female characters but a population of players want to play male characters but also want to romance that character. 

So no, this solution is not optimal, it just leads to people implementing mods to force an otherwise off-limits romance, which creates very interesting and sometimes very awkwad dialogue.

In a perfect world with unlimited resources, I completely disagree. I don't think it matters whether you really really really wanted to romance one character and couldn't because they weren't interested. Hell, I'd like for that to happen more often. You want to free all mages? Well, super religious Chantry templar brother guy has absolutely no interest in you.

Several people have done this enough that it's really starting to grate on my nerves.  I totally agree that there should be decisions a PC can make, beliefs they can express, that will cut them off from romancing certain characters.  But this has NOTHING to do with the question of gender or sexual orientation!  You should have characters who will have nothing to do with your PC  because they find your beliefs or actions reprehensible, but why people keep making this point in a discussion about whether romances should be across-the-board available is mind-boggling.  You should NOT use that need for characters who will reject the PC on certain grounds to justify limiting romance options based on gender and orientation.  Because the issue becomes one of inclusiveness, and sorry, but wanting to play a PC who is fanatically pro-mage freedom but still gets to romance a mage-hater like Fenris is IN NO WAY COMPARABLE OR EQUAL to wanting to play a PC of the player's preferred gender while NOT being cut off from romancing their preferred LI. The two situations are totally unrelated, and one has zero real world implications, while the other DOES have an impact on whether players feel marginalized or included.

Modifié par Silfren, 21 mars 2013 - 08:32 .

[Neon Rising Winter]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It leaves the impression that all 4 of the love interests will just "drop their pants and get it on" just because its Hawke. The choice of gender has no bearing at all. All that matters is the name Hawke.

I didn`t meant Hawke was god moding. I meant the mechanics felt like god-moding a certain aspect of the game.

Yes and the Arishock will ALWAYS lose the fight with Hawke. So will Meredith. And Hawke will ALWAYS be able to raise or borrow the money to go to the Deep Roads. And a tired bedragled Hawke will always beat a group of mercenaries who had been idling at Kirkwal for days, impressing a guard enough that he goes call Uncle Gamlem. And Hawke will always impress one of the Kirkwall crime leaders enought that they pay to bring her / him into the city.

You getting a pattern here ?

Why Hawke being good at everything and succeeding where others fail only bithers you when it's gender related ?

Pleas just look deep inside yourself and try to see why this issue bothers you so much more than the rest. Because it clearly is something that causes you a lot of angst. And there is no need for that at all.

I am glad you won't be able to change Gaider's mind on this but there are just about a million of other games where you don't have to face this issue. So forgive me if I don't weep for you. You have alternatives, a lot more than a lot of people.

Rawgrim, I think something important to consider in this, aside from all issues of realism, game logic etc. There's an uncomfortable feeling that were they to follow your logic, the result would be limiting romance options for a group of gamers who have already have extremely limited options when it comes to experiencing romances in games that match their sexualities.

That Mass Effect 3 diagram is a good indication of a path I'd rather not take, and Mass Effect is one of the better series in respect of this!

And just to edit in, don't take this to mean I think there should only be gay, straight and bi sexual options ideally. As people have said above, it's just not that simple.

Modifié par Narrow Margin, 21 mars 2013 - 01:57 .

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yay? I don't get its somehow less immersion breaking and unfair to the characters when it plays like a straight male fantasy of every attractive women on board his ship wanting to be with him. But when that extends to the males...suddenly it goes too far? (and vice versa for the FemShep).

For the record, I found that to be a rather offputting aspect of ME2, so...yeah...

I can respect that.

Honestly what bothered me was save Tali there no was noway of really knowing what was the "shut romance down now! abort abort!" choice for the first conversation (why Jack has 2 nos with one not really being a no is something that'll always confuse me).

Still was an improvement of ME1's "ah you picked a choice that you didn't realize was flirty? TOO BAD. You're romancing X now!"

Every BW game I can recall had some "wat" inducing issue to me with their romances. (Like not being able to break up with Anders once you locked him in outside of...yeah you know.)

Except Jade Empire. ...wait. Nope it had that "You forgot to fully reject the o/s LI during your s/s romance? Welp they'll override it!" thing.

[Renmiri1]

Rawgrim wrote...

I think you are going abit too far on the assumption bit here, and its starting to become more than a little insulting.. The fact that there are gay people and such in the game, and that they are romancable is not a problem for me.

No offense intended, my apologies.

Rawgrim wrote...
I am arguing the mechanics of it, thats all. I wouldn`t complain if there were 8 gay romances and just 1 straight one either. Its just the fact that everyone being available from the get-go, to either gender, thats the problem.

Everyone in this thread, including David Gaider agrees with you that the mechanics are not optimal.

What everyone else sees is that it is better to be somewhat "imperfect" on the portrayal of the LIs than to be unfair to gamers just because they are not heterosexual males.

Can't you agree to that ? I mean seriously, you don't seem like a bigoted guy you actually seem quite nice and I didn't mean to offend you. It just drives me up a wal that a "nice guy" would fight so hard to preserve an unfair situation that is all around us, just because the fairness mechanics in game isn't perfect. 

[Rawgrim]

Narrow Margin wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It leaves the impression that all 4 of the love interests will just "drop their pants and get it on" just because its Hawke. The choice of gender has no bearing at all. All that matters is the name Hawke.

I didn`t meant Hawke was god moding. I meant the mechanics felt like god-moding a certain aspect of the game.

Yes and the Arishock will ALWAYS lose the fight with Hawke. So will Meredith. And Hawke will ALWAYS be able to raise or borrow the money to go to the Deep Roads. And a tired bedragled Hawke will always beat a group of mercenaries who had been idling at Kirkwal for days, impressing a guard enough that he goes call Uncle Gamlem. And Hawke will always impress one of the Kirkwall crime leaders enought that they pay to bring her / him into the city.

You getting a pattern here ?

Why Hawke being good at everything and succeeding where others fail only bithers you when it's gender related ?

Pleas just look deep inside yourself and try to see why this issue bothers you so much more than the rest. Because it clearly is something that causes you a lot of angst. And there is no need for that at all.

I am glad you won't be able to change Gaider's mind on this but there are just about a million of other games where you don't have to face this issue. So forgive me if I don't weep for you. You have alternatives, a lot more than a lot of people.

Rawgrim, I think something important to consider in this, aside from all issues of realism, game logic etc. There's an uncomfortable feeling that were they to follow your logic, the result would be limiting romance options for a group of gamers who have already have extremely limited options when it comes to experiencing romances in games that match their sexualities.

That Mass Effect 3 diagram is a good indication of a path I'd rather not take, and Mass Effect is one of the better series in respect of this!

I am not saying people should get excluded or have limited options. Far from it. Everyone should have the same amount of options. I am just not agreeing with how it was handled in DA2. I can`t really comment on how it was done in ME either. I only romanced Liara.